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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / June 2005

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Silver Gelatin

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Matt Clara - 24 May 2005 16:02 GMT
So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes, I've come to the
realization that I'm _already_ making silver gelatin prints with Ilford
papers.  I am so cool, and I didn't even know it  ;-)  It looks like all the
rage these days is to buy _liquid_ silver gelatin and paint it onto other
substrates, such as homemade paper, ceramics, or whatever won't fall apart
or be altered by the chemicals at hand, and make prints on those surfaces.

Where do you buy your liquid silver gelatin?  I've found this page:
http://www.rockaloid.com/prices.html#liquid  $56 seems a tad pricey, but
then, I don't really know.

Thanks.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 May 2005 17:21 GMT
> So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes, I've come to the
> realization that I'm _already_ making silver gelatin prints with Ilford
> papers.  I am so cool, and I didn't even know it ...

 Tout ce qui n' est point prose est vers,
 et tout ce qui n' est point vers est prose.

                               Moliere

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Matt Clara - 24 May 2005 18:28 GMT
> > So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes, I've come to the
> > realization that I'm _already_ making silver gelatin prints with Ilford
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>                                 Moliere

Well, at least someone's having fun here.  BTW, I'd appreciate it if you'd
keep the emoticon when you snip my post leaving only the part I'm kidding
about.  Thanks.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 May 2005 20:54 GMT
> Well, at least someone's having fun here.  BTW, I'd appreciate it if you'd
> keep the emoticon when you snip my post leaving only the part I'm kidding
> about.  Thanks.

7,000 years of writing and no need of 'emoticons', and now?
Jonathan Swift wept.

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Matt Clara - 24 May 2005 21:29 GMT
>> Well, at least someone's having fun here.  BTW, I'd appreciate it if
>> you'd
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 7,000 years of writing and no need of 'emoticons', and now?
> Jonathan Swift wept.

Do you have to work hard at being an a.s, or does it come naturally?

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Regards,
Matt Clara M.A. English Language and Literature, and who could talk circles
around you concerning Jonathan Swift, you smug prick, you.
www.mattclara.com

Peter Chant - 25 May 2005 00:08 GMT
> 7,000 years of writing and no need of 'emoticons', and now?
> Jonathan Swift wept.

Whats the hieroglyph for 'up yours'...

;-)

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http://www.petezilla.co.uk

John - 24 May 2005 19:10 GMT
>  Tout ce qui n' est point prose est vers,
>  et tout ce qui n' est point vers est prose.
>
>                                Moliere

    Goes well with Louis XIV ;>))

JD - www.puresilver.org
Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 May 2005 21:04 GMT
> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote:
> >  Tout ce qui n' est point prose est vers,
> >  et tout ce qui n' est point vers est prose.
> >                                Moliere
> Goes well with Louis XIV ;>))

or Louis XV:

 "Apres moi, le digitale"

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

John - 25 May 2005 07:52 GMT
>> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote:
>> >  Tout ce qui n' est point prose est vers,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>or Louis XV:

    Actually I think it was XIII. About $100 per quaff when I worked at Lafayette but
of course I get the "employee discount"  ;>))

JD - www.puresilver.org
Richard Knoppow - 24 May 2005 22:16 GMT
> So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes,
> I've come to the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Thanks.

 Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
those made by more exotic methods like Platinum or Carbon.
Being a gallery term its slightly high-flown.
 I think all the liquid emulsion sold is made by Kentmere
in England. Kentmere is a very old company who make some
very good papers and specialty products.
 There are several ways of printing on special materials.
One, of course, is the use of a coatable emulsion but one
can also print using photolithography or by using silk
screen using a gelatin or other colloid to make the mask.
There are also methods of coating something like Carbon
tissue material with an appropriate pigment onto a ceramic
and firing it. The pigment then becomes imbedded in the
glaze while the colloid is burned away. I no longer remember
the name of this method.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Peter Chant - 25 May 2005 00:13 GMT
>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
> gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
> those made by more exotic methods like Platinum or Carbon.

On the first read through I read that as 'plutonium'!

Probally safest to give those prints a miss.

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Travis Porco - 25 May 2005 00:54 GMT
>>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
>> gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
>> those made by more exotic methods like Platinum or Carbon.

>On the first read through I read that as 'plutonium'!

>Probally safest to give those prints a miss.

Though as you and many others know, <a href="http://www.unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Uranium/uranium.html">uranium</a> was actually used in alternative processes, strange
as it may seem today.
Mike King - 31 May 2005 03:16 GMT
Not so strange I have ancient formulas for uranium toners, also.  A bit like
selenium but orange if I remember rightly.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> >>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> was actually used in alternative processes, strange
> as it may seem today.
Richard Knoppow - 31 May 2005 23:51 GMT
> Not so strange I have ancient formulas for uranium toners,
> also.  A bit like
> selenium but orange if I remember rightly.

  Uranium toner is a "sepia" toner. Of course the color it
produces depends on the paper or film one is toning but, in
general, its a reddish brown. Uranium toner was evidently
quite popular in the 1930's probably for the color it
produced.
  I think I posted the formula for Kodak's Uranium toner to
this group not long ago. I don't suggest it as a practical
toner. First of all, Uranium Nitrate is likely very
difficult to obtain but also its not a protective toner.
Most toners using a Ferricyanide bleach, like Copper and
Iron-blue toners, produce images which are less stable than
the original silver.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Travis Porco - 01 Jun 2005 01:45 GMT
>> Not so strange I have ancient formulas for uranium toners,
>> also.  A bit like
>> selenium but orange if I remember rightly.

>   Uranium toner is a "sepia" toner. Of course the color it
>produces depends on the paper or film one is toning but, in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Iron-blue toners, produce images which are less stable than
>the original silver.

Uranotype images themselves (I gather) were/are a reddish color; I wonder how
permanent the original uranotypes were (as opposed to uranium-toned silver
images).
Richard Knoppow - 01 Jun 2005 05:40 GMT
> In article
> <OT5ne.4367$MI4.2676@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> uranium-toned silver
> images).

  I am not familiar with the process, is it similar to
others like the iron processes?

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 25 May 2005 12:37 GMT
>>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
>> gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Probally safest to give those prints a miss.

  No Plutonium but there is a Uranium toner, once fairly
popular. Uranium can also be used as a mordant for dye
toning.
  A typical Uranium toner is Kodak T-9:

Kodak T-9 Uranium Toner for Transparencies and Motion
Picture Prints.

Uranium (Uranyl) Nitrate                        2.5 grams
Potassium Oxalate                               2.5 grams
Potassium ferricyanide                          1.0 gram
Ammonium alum                                   6.0 grams
Hydrochloric acid, 10% solution                 5.0 ml
Water to make                                   1.0 liter

Dissolve chemicals in order given. The solution should be
perfectly clear and light yellow in color.
 It is light sensitive and should be stored in the dark.
The maximum effect is produced in about 10 minutes the tone
passing throught brown to red in this time.
  There is likely a variation of this for prints but I was
unable to find one.

  I don't know for certain about the permanence of Uranium
toned film or prints but, in general toners of this type,
such as Iron Blue toner or Copper toner, that use a
ferricyanide bleach  to replace the image silver with
another metal, produce images which are less permenent than
the original Silver image. They are not protectants as is
sulfide or Selenium toner
  For all I know there may indeed be a way of toning with
Plutonium:-)
Mike King - 31 May 2005 03:17 GMT
Also as a glaze for pottery, some older Mexican pottery is glazed with heavy
metal salts which will leach out into your morning OJ.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> >>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>    For all I know there may indeed be a way of toning with
> Plutonium:-)
John - 31 May 2005 04:55 GMT
>Also as a glaze for pottery, some older Mexican pottery is glazed with heavy
>metal salts which will leach out into your morning OJ.

    Ah ! Sounds like the water in New Jersey !

JD - www.puresilver.org
Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 May 2005 15:49 GMT
> Also as a glaze for pottery, some older Mexican pottery is glazed with heavy
> metal salts which will leach out into your morning OJ.

Known as "Fiesta Wear" - available at any flea market, ask for it
by name.  Since it is not usable it must, natch, be collectable.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Lloyd Erlick - 31 May 2005 18:03 GMT
>> Also as a glaze for pottery, some older Mexican pottery is glazed with heavy
>> metal salts which will leach out into your morning OJ.
>
>Known as "Fiesta Wear" - available at any flea market, ask for it
>by name.  Since it is not usable it must, natch, be collectable.

may3105 from Lloyd Erlick,

I thought Fiesta Ware was a problem only
where large quantities of it were kept, such
as the manufacturer's factory or storage
warehouse. I think it was the vats of glazing
material, before it was applied to individual
pieces, that were the real danger to people
spending workday after workday close to
quantities of the glaze.

It's similar to the problem of cadmium in
photosensitive material. The sheets of paper
containing minute amounts of cadmium are (or
were...) no problem to darkroom workers or
photo buyers, but the workers in the
manufacturing plant had to hang around large
amounts of it for a long time. I think yellow
automotive paint used to contain cadmium -
the police cruisers in Toronto used to be
bright yellow until the environmental/working
conditions legislation came into existence.

So if I get prostat cancer can I just strap a
Fiesta teacup on ... ??

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 May 2005 18:34 GMT
> I thought Fiesta Ware was a [radiation?] problem only
> where large quantities of it were kept, such
> as the manufacturer's factory or storage
> warehouse.

TTBOMK the stuff is no more radioactive than
Coleman Lantern mantles, lanthanar lenses,
Staticmaster dust brushes, smoke detectors ...

As mentioned previously, Fiesta glaze dissolves in acid -
like OJ or lemon juice on asparagus, say - and
radionucleotides hang around in the body just
like any other heavy metal -- of which Fiesta
wear glaze was also full of.

> So if I get prostate cancer can I just strap a
> Fiesta teacup on ... ??

I don't believe this is the route to the prostate,
I think one would have to force said teacup up
one's ...

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Lloyd Erlick - 31 May 2005 18:46 GMT
may3105 from Lloyd Erlick,

...
>I don't believe this is the route to the prostate,
>I think one would have to force said teacup up
>one's ...

Hmm, yes, I get it.

I realize this is severely OT, so I'll be
brief, but I can't resist ...

Recently I've been researching a device
originally from France. Its name is so
hilariously wonderful I can't hold myself
back (and I swear I'm not making this up...)
-- the Prostatron. Its probe (probe...) is
electronically cooled and radiates microwave.
It is controlled by software now specified as
version 3. The Prostatron is vastly
preferable to certain surgical procedures. So
maybe digital isn't so bad after all.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 May 2005 19:17 GMT
> -- the Prostatron. Its probe (probe...) is
> electronically cooled and radiates microwave.
> It is controlled by software now specified as
> version 3. The Prostatron is vastly
> preferable to certain surgical procedures. So
> maybe digital isn't so bad after all.

One in a long line of probing prostate cures.

All of the ones I know of use heat.  The most common
one is a, well, long oblong shape with a line cord sprouting
from one end.  It is applied to the patient in a
manner such that the patient has the line cord
sprouting from his end and the cord is plugged
into the 120/220V outlet.

Yours sounds like a much more modern digital
diathermic digit.

Statistically the most effective treatment for
prostatitis is no treatment at all.

Now -- how do we get this back on topic:

Will I still be able to buy film in twenty years?
What is a good developer for Tri-X?
Does anyone have a Durst "dadupa" lens adapter?
Everybody is a rip-off artist except me -
  Wanna buy a Benz-Gant, only $90?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Gregory Blank - 31 May 2005 19:27 GMT

> All of the ones I know of use heat.  The most common
> one is a, well, long oblong shape with a line cord sprouting
> from one end.  It is applied to the patient in a
> manner such that the patient has the line cord
> sprouting from his end and the cord is plugged
> into the 120/220V outlet.

WOW- Talk about erectile disfunction.

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Richard Knoppow - 31 May 2005 23:58 GMT
>> -- the Prostatron. Its probe (probe...) is
>> electronically cooled and radiates microwave.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> sprouting from his end and the cord is plugged
> into the 120/220V outlet.

  I hope the insulation is good....

> Yours sounds like a much more modern digital
> diathermic digit.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Everybody is a rip-off artist except me -
>   Wanna buy a Benz-Gant, only $90?

   Tri-X works well with a number of developers. For normal
development D-76 stock or diluted 1:1 gives good results.
For pushing try T-Max, Xtol, or Microphen. Tri-X needs a
long fixing time similar to T-Max films. Can't help with the
other stuff.
   As far as what films will be available in 20 years, my
crystal ball (made of pure silver nitrate) has been tied up
looking at the commodities markets and horse races. Its been
clouding up lately and complaining of headaches.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Jun 2005 15:02 GMT
> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > -- the Prostatron. Its probe (probe...) is
> > > electronically cooled and radiates microwave.
> > One in a long line of probing prostate cures.
> > most common ... long oblong shape with a line cord

> I hope the insulation is good....

You will have to make your own decision:

http://www.mtn.org/quack/devices/prostate.htm

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Gregory Blank - 31 May 2005 19:24 GMT
> The Prostatron is vastly
> preferable to certain surgical procedures.

Is this from personal experience, you draw these
conclusions? If so care to elaborate :-D

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Erlick - 01 Jun 2005 19:04 GMT
>> The Prostatron is vastly
>> preferable to certain surgical procedures.
>
>Is this from personal experience, you draw these
>conclusions? If so care to elaborate :-D

jun105 from Lloyd Erlick,

Good point. I haven't actually had treatment
in either mode.

But the conventional method was/is to undergo
knife-style surgery. It's called TURP
(Trans-Urethral Resection of the Prostate).
They refer to it as the 'gold standard' of
this sort of thing, because it's been done a
lot and works quite predictably. But it has
all the drawbacks of regular surgery, like a
significant recovery time.

The microwave devices focus heat into the
prostate from the probe within the urethra.
No cutting, just a bit of cooking. The probe
is electronically cooled so the urethra and
immediate environs (important!) are not
cooked. Recovery time is reputedly quite
short.

In both cases there is a real but small
chance of sexual dysfunction afterwards.
Hence the medical term, "watchful waiting".
In other words, wait as long as possible
before doing anything because you might lose
sexual function, and wouldn't it be great if
it turned out you were so old before you
really, really, really needed it you didn't
function anyway, or maybe even were dead by
then.

My comment about the microwave techniques
being preferable was not based on personal
experience, only investigation. There are
horror stories about any of the techniques, I
believe. I've also seen remarks online from
patients who have had brilliantly wonderful
resolutions with all current methods.

The Prostatron and its ilk are designed to
treat a condition called BPH (Benign Prostate
Hypertrophy). This is not cancer, and is
different from prostatitis. Supposedly 80 per
cent of men get BPH by the age of 80. It's a
hell of a piss-off (and that's a pun,
intended...). It also interrupts one's sleep,
truly one of the universe's little ways of
laughing behind our back. ISR - interrupted
sleep rage??

Well, you asked. I still think Prostatron is
a funny 'word'.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Gregory Blank - 02 Jun 2005 10:06 GMT
Yikes

> In both cases there is a real but small
> chance of sexual dysfunction afterwards.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> function anyway, or maybe even were dead by
> then.

What's the difference between, not doing something because
your scared you won't be able to and not being able to?

If your hurt and can't work "AFLAC"

> My comment about the microwave techniques
> being preferable was not based on personal
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> net: www.heylloyd.com
> ________________________________

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Erlick - 02 Jun 2005 15:26 GMT
>Yikes

jun205 from Lloyd Erlick,

I agree. Yikes is my best summation, too. I
like what Marvin, the robot from
'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe,' had to
say: "Life -- what a concept."

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Gregory Blank - 31 May 2005 19:22 GMT
> > I thought Fiesta Ware was a [radiation?] problem only
> > where large quantities of it were kept, such
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Coleman Lantern mantles, lanthanar lenses,
> Staticmaster dust brushes, smoke detectors ...

How about watch dials? Several years back Readers
Digest reported a story of a gentleman inclined to experiment
with radioactive materials, somehow he managed to concentrate
the luminous material found on some types of analog dials. When the
authorities finally caught on to what he was doing in his backyard shed
(Trying to build a reactor) they ascertained that the radioactive levels
were several hundred times what was considered a truly dangerous dose of
radiation.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Erlick - 01 Jun 2005 19:08 GMT
>> > I thought Fiesta Ware was a [radiation?] problem only
>> > where large quantities of it were kept, such
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>were several hundred times what was considered a truly dangerous dose of
>radiation.

jun105 from Lloyd Erlick,

A few years ago there was an article in the
New Yorker Magazine about a fellow who made
art from radioactive materials. He had some
sort of degree that qualified him and worked
in cooperation with the atomic energy
regulatory agency. Apparently his art was
safe. Personally, I don't get it, I like
silver and horrible chemicals like sodium
thiosulfate, yumm, dangerous.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Richard Knoppow - 01 Jun 2005 21:55 GMT
>>In article
>><%e1ne.13440$w21.12218@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> net: www.heylloyd.com
> ________________________________
  This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.
Orignally, glow-in-the-dark watch and clock dials contained
some Radium to energize the flourescent material. Most of
the dial painting was done at one of several factories run
by a company called The Radium Dial Co. Hundreds of girls
were employed at what were then good wages to paint the
dials. They used small brushes and shaped the brushes by
licking them. They got large doses of Radium which
eventually caused a very high cancer rate and killed a lot
of them. The factory operated from the late 1920's. The
first law suit over Radium poisoning and exposure to
radioactivity came in 1938. Few of the victims sued. It
turned out the company knew all along they were putting the
girls in mortal danger but lied about it.
  Radium dials were still being made after WW-2. I don't
know the date at which they were discontinued. Current
glow-in-the-dark dials do not really glow on their own. Most
are energized by the UV content of the room light and
continue to phosphores at a decreasing rate in the dark.
Eventually they become invisible.
  A Google search for "radium dials" will find various
versions of the above story.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Gregory Blank - 01 Jun 2005 23:10 GMT
>    This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.
> Orignally, glow-in-the-dark watch and clock dials contained
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    A Google search for "radium dials" will find various
> versions of the above story.

IIRC part of the concentration process involved shooting
electrons through a pipe of sorts (does that sound reasonable)
Anyway the nut in question was also obtaining cesium from
discarded dental equipment. If i can find the article I'll post the
issue number.

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Jun 2005 01:32 GMT
>    This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.
> Orignally, glow-in-the-dark watch and clock dials contained
> some Radium to energize the flourescent material.

Radioactive watch dials are still [?] available, but they
use Tritium.  If the watch dial has a 'T' or two at the
6 O'clock position then there is tritium in the glo-paint.
Tritium has a short half-life and the glow only lasts
for 12 years or so.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
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John - 02 Jun 2005 04:48 GMT
> It turned out the company knew all along they were putting the
>girls in mortal danger but lied about i

    Republicans.

JD - www.puresilver.org
David Nebenzahl - 02 Jun 2005 14:16 GMT
On 6/1/2005 8:48 PM John spake thus:

>> It turned out the company knew all along they were putting the
>>girls in mortal danger but lied about i
>
>     Republicans.

Hey, don't shortchange the Democrats here: how about those "liberal" Demos,
like HRC (and our local hero of the downtrodden, Ellen Tauscher) who voted FOR
the "Bankruptcy Responsibility Act"? How 'bout them apples?

Signature

When someone claims that the Government is monitoring their thoughts,
we call them paranoid or crazy. I prefer to think of such people as
just slightly ahead of their time.

Lloyd Erlick - 02 Jun 2005 15:26 GMT
...
>   This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.
>Orignally, glow-in-the-dark watch and clock dials contained
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>   A Google search for "radium dials" will find various
>versions of the above story.
...

jun205 from Lloyd Erlick,

There is a famous photograph of workers
sitting around a long, broad table doing this
(or similar work). Along the center of the
table are large bowls or vats that appear in
the image to be brightly radiating light.
They are actually full of radioactive
material, of course. One worker is leaning
over one vat, to reach another beyond it with
her brush (all the workers are women). Her
whole upper body is lost in a bright aura
above the container.

I forget whose work this was. Hine or Riis,
perhaps?

Somehow it's all the worse to consider that
the employer knew of the danger to the
workers. Somewhere there are heirs to the
money made this way. Sounds like a great
screenplay...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Jun 2005 15:58 GMT
> > This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.

The factory in question [though there may have been more than
one] was here in Cleveland.

To add injury to insult, the women doing the painting would
point the tip of the brush by stroking it against their tongue

> Somehow it's all the worse to consider that
> the employer knew of the danger to the
> workers.

From what I have read the answer is no.  That the radium was
dangerous to handle was well known.  The paint was considered
harmless as the radium content was very low.  At the
time small amounts of radium were even considered beneficial to
health - boosted the immune system and all that.

You might think folks are smarter these days:

 http://www.outwestnewspaper.com/radon.html

But they aren't.

> Somewhere there are heirs to the money made this way.

No money was made.  The owner of the enterprise was left with a
lead casket containing a vial of radium at the end of WWII.
Rather than mail it back to Oak Ridge he built it into the brick
backyard barbecue of his little post war tract house: "I need
to get rid of this stuff -- quick. Where is a safe place?"

The radium was discovered 20 (??) years ago when the barbecue
was knocked down.

In the end the heirs to what was left weren't relatives,
and they wished they weren't heirs.

"With a whimper, not a bang."

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Lloyd Erlick - 03 Jun 2005 15:18 GMT
what a story!
--le

>> > This is reminiscent of the Radium Dial scandal.
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>"With a whimper, not a bang."
Gregory Blank - 02 Jun 2005 18:19 GMT
>Somewhere there are heirs to the
> money made this way. Sounds like a great
> screenplay...

Sounds like a good reason to look them up
and make them pay. You don't happen to have
a third eye in your forehead :-)

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

David Nebenzahl - 03 Jun 2005 02:24 GMT
On 6/2/2005 7:26 AM Lloyd Erlick spake thus:

> There is a famous photograph of workers
> sitting around a long, broad table doing this
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> money made this way. Sounds like a great
> screenplay...

All part of something of a grand tradition of abuses.

Cf. companies or institutions that were founded on money made in the slave
trade: Aetna Insurance, Brown University and Harvard Law School.

Or those with close ties to the Nazis: Bayer and IBM, to name just two.

Signature

When someone claims that the Government is monitoring their thoughts,
we call them paranoid or crazy. I prefer to think of such people as
just slightly ahead of their time.

Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 May 2005 12:00 GMT
"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> There are also methods of coating something like Carbon
> tissue material with an appropriate pigment onto a ceramic
> and firing it. The pigment then becomes imbedded in the
> glaze while the colloid is burned away. I no longer remember
> the name of this method.

Now _that's_ archival.

I remember seeing a photograph made on a white porcelain
tile.  The subject was a bathroom fixture.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 May 2005 12:08 GMT
Re: photographic process on tile.

Further research uncovers:

http://picturetiling.com/homepage.htm
http://www.thetilemaster.com/

Decorated ceramic tile is in with the modern Yuppie
crowd.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

John - 25 May 2005 14:41 GMT
>Re: photographic process on tile.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Decorated ceramic tile is in with the modern Yuppie
>crowd.

    Looks like they could just use some PVA and same a lot of work.

JD - www.puresilver.org
Peter Chant - 25 May 2005 18:41 GMT
> Looks like they could just use some PVA and same a lot of work.

The process in the first link gives the impression that it diffuses priter
ink into the glaze.  The second is just moulding acrylic over the top of a
photo.  I wonder how they fair with age?

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 May 2005 12:20 GMT
> There are also methods of coating something like Carbon
> tissue material with an appropriate pigment onto a ceramic
> and firing it. The pigment then becomes imbedded in the
> glaze while the colloid is burned away. I no longer remember
> the name of this method.

Dating to 1890, still used for photographs on gravestones:

http://www.printandclay.net/printandclay/viewpointtext.htm

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Matt Clara - 25 May 2005 15:54 GMT
>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
> gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in England. Kentmere is a very old company who make some
> very good papers and specialty products.

Thanks Richard,
Is this stuff applied in full darkness or is red safety light good to go?

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Richard Knoppow - 25 May 2005 23:45 GMT
>>   Silver-gelatin seems to be a description invented by
>> gallery owners to distinguish "plain vanila" prints from
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Is this stuff applied in full darkness or is red safety
> light good to go?

See  http://www.rockaloid.com/  for complete information.
There are on-line instructions. Rockland makes or sells two
types of emulsion, a plain one and a VC one. The plain one
specifies an "amber" safelight (probably a Wratten OC) the
VC a red safelight. The red light will be safe for both.
These are both very slow emulsions. Surface prep and subbing
are important. Some people have had problems with the
emulsion coming off during development. I suspect Rockland
can be helpful with specific applications.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

me - 26 May 2005 22:53 GMT
Try here.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/

> So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes, I've come to the
> realization that I'm _already_ making silver gelatin prints with Ilford
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thanks.
me - 26 May 2005 22:58 GMT
Here you go. Liquid Light.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_main.php?cat_id=108

> So, having combed the archives for all of three minutes, I've come to the
> realization that I'm _already_ making silver gelatin prints with Ilford
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thanks.
 
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