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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2003Simple chimical questions...
Hi to all Yesterday evening I have prepared two developers for print, the BEERS (two baths) and the ANSCO 120 for to use in place of selectol soft for the two baths development procedure. I have tested only ANSCO 120, but the first print has come correctly, while the successive ones have come completely red (diluted 1:4). I have prepared a new bath but it has introduced the same problem. Is it possible that after a few minutes it was already oxidized? or the problem is other? I have tried it with AGFA MCC 111 and with the Kentmere Art Classic with the same problems. One note: after add sodium carbonate in ANSCO 120 it has become dark brown. The same one is happened for the first bath of BEERS (sol. A) while the second solution (B) is remained red clear! thanks in advance! PG Developers should not become dark brown unless something is wrong with the ingredients. I have seen this (a) with Kodak packaged D-76 that was left on the shelf too long, and (b) with Glycin based formulas where the Glycin has degraded. Since the problem occurs after the addition of carbonate, it would appear that that ingredient may be a problem. It may have chemically degraded, or it may not be a carbonate at all. I would buy some new potassium or sodium carbonate and try again. Francis A. Miniter >Hi to all > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >thanks in advance! >PG > Developers should not become dark brown unless something is wrong with > the ingredients. I have seen this (a) with Kodak packaged D-76 that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > may have chemically degraded, or it may not be a carbonate at all. I > would buy some new potassium or sodium carbonate and try again. Hi francis! I have noticed that Kodak Dektol once diluited becomes dark red. I have thought that for ansco 120 it was the same thing. I have other Sodium carbonate anhydrous preparations, i will try as you say! thanks Pier Luigi > > Developers should not become dark brown unless something is wrong with > > the ingredients. > Hi francis! > I have noticed that Kodak Dektol once diluited becomes dark red. I > have thought that for ansco 120 it was the same thing. > Pier Luigi Very interesting. Have you been compounding your own chemistry for some time? All in all, the developers you have mentioned have no GOOD reason to have any more than a very faint color. Trace amounts of a few elements can color very highly. I think that for some time you have been using water or some chemical which is contaminating your solutions. Print developers which are red and brown at mixing are unheard of. How long has that been going on? You may have to think long and hard for a solution. Dan > Pier Luigi > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > red and brown at mixing are unheard of. How long has that been > going on? You may have to think long and hard for a solution. Until today I have prepared only PMK Pyro and Fix (F24, Tf-2 etc.) without problems. This is the first time that I try of the developments for print! Glycin powder discolors over time. In solution it has a very long lifetime. Discolored glycin retains its photographic qualities (at least the stuff I use does) but stains paper brown. I have heard of a brown glycin powder being dissolved in water and then filtered (must have been with activated charcoal) but have no first-hand experience. I have used glycin that is about half-way to maximum brown, and it has not discolored film. David Foy > Developers should not become dark brown unless something is wrong with > the ingredients. I have seen this (a) with Kodak packaged D-76 that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >thanks in advance! > >PG >Glycin powder discolors over time. In solution it has a very long lifetime. >Discolored glycin retains its photographic qualities (at least the stuff I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >David Foy My experience is similar. I was quite surprised to find that even a little carbonate did not appreciably speed up the degradation. Do you know why glycin would keep better in solution rather than in glass bottles ? Is this simply due to the use of sulfite to scavenge/absorb the oxygen from the solution ? Regards John S. Douglas, Photographer http://www.darkroompro.com >>Glycin powder discolors over time. In solution it has a very long lifetime. >>Discolored glycin retains its photographic qualities (at least the stuff I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > John S. Douglas, Photographer > http://www.darkroompro.com I got dumped on a year or more ago, when I noted that discolored Glycin continued to work when dissolved in a strong Alkaline solution. I "think" it had Sulfite in it as well. I wish I had access to my notes, but I stand by the statement that, in some instances, discolored Glycin can be made to work as a developer in solution. Hope this helps to get someone to an answer here.. I used the developer for film, so no paper staining would have been seen in any event. No help on that score. Robert Vervoordt, MFA I don't really know. Your suggestion sounds plausible. David Foy > >Glycin powder discolors over time. In solution it has a very long lifetime. > >Discolored glycin retains its photographic qualities (at least the stuff I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > John S. Douglas, Photographer > http://www.darkroompro.com > Hi to all > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > thanks in advance! > PG Your message is a little unclear. Are you saying the prints came out red? What exactly are the formulas you used in compounding the three developers; A and B Beers and the 120. I suppose the other half of the 120 would be Dektol as it is usually used with Selectol. Dan > Your message is a little unclear. Sorry for my english! :-/ > Are you saying the prints came > out red? Yes! i've tryed Ansco 120 dil. 1:3 for first bath and dektol stock for second bath. the white has become pink and black has became red. this is succeeded from second print. I have tryed to prepare the first bath [ ansco 120 ] but immediately the first print has become red. I don't try to test BEERS formula, but the first bath is Dark Red (o brown) and the second bath is Red Clear. > What exactly are the formulas you used in compounding the three > developers; A and B Beers and the 120. I suppose the other half > of the 120 would be Dektol as it is usually used with Selectol. Dan This are the formulas: Ansco 120 Water 52°C 750.0 ml Metol 12.3 g Sodium sulfite (anhydrous) 36.0 g Sodium carbonate (anhydrous) 30.0 g Potassium bromide 1.8 g Water to 1,000.0 ml BEERS BATH A Water 52°C 750 ml metol 8 grams sodium sulfite 23 grams sodium carbonate (dessic) 20 grams 10% potassium bromide sol'n 11 ml water to 1 L BEERS BATH B Water 52°C 750 ml hydroquinone 8 grams sodium sulfite 23 grams sodium carbonate (dessic) 27 grams 10% potassium bromide sol'n 22 ml water to 1 L thanks Pier Luigi > > Your message is a little unclear. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > thanks > Pier Luigi One of the chemicals you are using is contaminated. All these formulas should be either clear or slightly yellow when mixed. The diluted working solutions should be clear. They will become yellow with use but should not turn brown or red. The red color suggests very considerably oxidation. All of the working solutions should be good for at least 8 hours in an open tray. There may also be trouble with your water. All of the chemicals used in these formulas should be white or nearly so. If any is brown its oxidized and no good. If the sulfite is very old it may have oxidized to sulfate and no longer protect the developing agents. The two solutions of the Beers developer are mixed together to get a range of activity. The first formula can be used alone for low contrast. Agfa 120 should be diluted one part stock to one part water or one part stock to two parts water. 1:4 will work but probaby won't deliver good blacks. If you can use packaged developers successfully the problem is probably not with the water. What does your Metol look like, it should be white or slightly gray. If its yellow its begun to oxidize. It is brown its badly oxidized. The same for the Hydroquinone. It should be white or gray. Really bad Hydroquinone looks like coffee grounds and smells like rotten fish.  Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > One of the chemicals you are using is contaminated. All > these formulas should be either clear or slightly yellow > when mixed. This is truly strange. All the confection are sluices opportunely. They must already have sold bad. > The diluted working solutions should be clear. > They will become yellow with use but should not turn brown > or red. The red color suggests very considerably oxidation. > All of the working solutions should be good for at least 8 > hours in an open tray. I have diluited in 750ml of distilled water the metol, then the sodium sulfite and endured after sodium carbonate. As soon as added sodium carbonate to the solution it has become dark brown. > There may also be trouble with your water. with distilled water??? > All of the chemicals used in these formulas should be > white or nearly so. If any is brown its oxidized and no > good. If the sulfite is very old it may have oxidized to > sulfate and no longer protect the developing agents. Excuse me... explains to me better, can become old the sodium sulfite anhydrous powder's ? it would not have to be eternal? > The two solutions of the Beers developer are mixed > together to get a range of activity. The first formula can > be used alone for low contrast. yes, i know! ;-) > Agfa 120 should be diluted one part stock to one part > water or one part stock to two parts water. 1:4 will work > but probaby won't deliver good blacks. > If you can use packaged developers successfully the > problem is probably not with the water. Yes! I never haven't had problems with the Dektol, even if this becomes brown after diluited... but isn't it normal? it work correctly. > What does your Metol look like, it should be white or > slightly gray. > If its yellow its begun to oxidize. NO! after diluition of Metol (first ingredient) the solution became clearest pink. > It is > brown its badly oxidized. The same for the Hydroquinone. It > should be white or gray. Really bad Hydroquinone looks like > coffee grounds and smells like rotten fish. YES! after add Hydroquinone the solution became white clear! Pier Luigi > Hi to all > > Yesterday evening I have prepared two developers for print, the BEERS > (two baths) and the ANSCO 120 for to use in place of selectol soft for > the two baths development procedure. You gain nothing by two baths that you can't get by diluting/reformulating a developer. > I have tested only ANSCO 120, but the first print has come correctly, > while the successive ones have come completely red (diluted 1:4). I > have prepared a new bath but it has introduced the same problem. It's underdeveloped. Unlike film, paper must be developed almost all the way to completion. Your paper was way underdeveloped. > Is it possible that after a few minutes it was already oxidized? Too weak to start with. > or > the problem is other? I have tried it with AGFA MCC 111 and with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thanks in advance! > PG Mike, his statement that the first print was OK, but after that he had red staining is interesting.... The oxidation products of the typical reducing agents we use as developers result in a rusty colored deposits... I wonder if his water is vigorously aerated, or contaminated with some other source of rapid oxidation... Hmmm, just thinking out loud here... Denny > > Hi to all > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > thanks in advance! > > PG >Mike, his statement that the first print was OK, but after that he had red >staining is interesting.... The oxidation products of the typical reducing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Denny Add that to the bit aboutthe addition of Carbonate and it points to something wrong with what he believes to be Carbonate. Could be he has some kind of metal contaminated clkali here? Some of his description is like the effect of toning, while another sounds like tinting. That suggests more than one set of defects operating. Is there a metllic contamination that will cause both oxidation of the developing agents and toning? >> piggy_palla@inwind.it (piggy) wrote in message >news:<337ccbdd.0309170035.3501fa37@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> > thanks in advance! >> > PG Robert Vervoordt, MFA > >Mike, his statement that the first print was OK, but after that he had red > >staining is interesting.... The oxidation products of the typical reducing [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Is there a metllic contamination that will cause both oxidation of the > developing agents and toning? WOW!!! IT COULD BE!!! In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! Is this the problem??? but... how is it it haven't had problems with PMK Pyro sol. A and B??? thanks Pier Luigi >> >Mike, his statement that the first print was OK, but after that he had red >> >staining is interesting.... The oxidation products of the typical reducing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! >Is this the problem??? Not real likely. I was thinking of something already in the Carbonate, like Iron. The Aluminum, while I wouldn't have any in my kitchen, is actually used in photo formulae. tI is usually in hardeners, in the form of a salt, and has been used in monobaths with success. >but... how is it it haven't had problems with PMK Pyro sol. A and B??? > >thanks >Pier Luigi Robert Vervoordt, MFA > > >Mike, his statement that the first print was OK, but after that he had red > > >staining is interesting.... The oxidation products of the typical reducing [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > thanks > Pier Luigi Try coffee filters. > In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! > Is this the problem??? As long as your chemicals are dry, you are OK. > ...haven't had problems with PMK Pyro sol. A and B??? No problem with Pyro, Metol, Kodalk, A and B. Kodalk is a borate, not a carbonate. Do you buy "Kodalk"? What is your source for chemicals? What do you use to weigh your chemicals? I also do Homebrew. Pier, French? Luigi, Italian? Dan > > In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! > > Is this the problem??? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do you buy "Kodalk"? What is your source for chemicals? What do > you use to weigh your chemicals? I also do Homebrew. Thanks Dan I have reformulated all chemical with a new sodium sulfite and I have also prepared Defender 54-D! all work perfectly, the problem was a not pure sodium sulfite! thanks to all! > Pier, French? Luigi, Italian? Dan i'm italian! ;-) this is a double name, the original name is Pieroluigi but in same case it become Pier Luigi. HI! > > > In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! 54-D is a great formula. I have used it a lot. > > > Is this the problem??? > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > HI! > 54-D is a great formula. I have used it a lot. in truth... i don't have formulated 54-D but Burk & Jenny formula (a 54-D with more Hidroquinone and Metol) and with sol. B of Benzotriazole. I think that the very beautiful cool color is for Benzotriazole. I want to try to put the Benzotriazole in Dektol for to test effects! HI Pier Luigi Dektol + benzo will have what's called neutral black, since it has potassium bromide in the formula. Just benzo will give bluish black. It's a matter of paper type and above all personal taste. Jorge > > 54-D is a great formula. I have used it a lot. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > HI > Pier Luigi > > In order to weigh chimical i use aluminium sheets (from kitchen)!!! > > Is this the problem??? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not a carbonate. > Do you buy "Kodalk"? NO! In europe Kodalk is unavailable. I use this formula 100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH - > What is your source for chemicals? some laboratories in Rome (i'm italian) and some internet site (www.tuttofoto.com, www.fotomatica.it). I use Ornano chemicals and pure druggist products. > What do > you use to weigh your chemicals? I also do Homebrew. I use a electronic balance with steps of 0.1g (i have buy it in internet, 45 Euro = approximately 40$) Hi Pier Luigi Pier From what you have posted, I think your sulfite is not working. Sulfite will, slowly, turn into sulfate that's useless as a preservative. Are you sure you are not using sodium sulfate? Jorge > Hi to all > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > thanks in advance! > PG > Pier > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jorge Yes! I'm sure! it is sodium sulfite! but it could be that it has been sold me mistaken! thanks Pier Luigi I suugest you buy some Dektol or equivalent and start over. I'd throw out your old chemicals. > Hi to all > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > thanks in advance! > PG |
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