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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2005

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kodak tmax100 fixing...

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death skunk five - 08 May 2005 18:55 GMT
Hey guys,

Is it ever possible to clear out the entire neg on tmax 100 from that pink
look?
I heard I just needed longer fixing times... but I just fixed one at 6min
and
still has the pink tint...

anyone ever fully clear it?  or is it even possible?

thanks.
Pieter Litchfield - 08 May 2005 19:06 GMT
Try using hypo clearing solution.  After fixing is complete, I wash my film
(35mm & 120 in small tank) for 2 minutes in running water, then use Kodak
hypo clearing solution for 2 minutes with agitation, then wash for 10
minutes in running water.  It's completely clear.

Note that a little pink means nothing.  A lot of pink (AKA magenta) may mean
incomplete fixing I have heard.  Too much fixing time is not a good idea
either.  If you fixer is exhausted you will get a magenta tone, but more
time won't imporve on the fixing.  Test your fixer and replace as necessary.
I understand Tmax film does take more fixing time - I think in the order of
5 minutes using Rapid Fix. It will exhaust fixer more rapidly that other
filems like Tri-X.

> Hey guys,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.
death skunk five - 08 May 2005 19:47 GMT
i just used agfa fix for about 6min...
i was quick to note the pink tone... after washing for about 10min it
cleared up... its hanging to dry now and the colours are completely gone,

i guess it just takes a little more fixing, i always use 1 shot fix.

everything looks good. thanks!

> Try using hypo clearing solution.  After fixing is complete, I wash my
> film (35mm & 120 in small tank) for 2 minutes in running water, then use
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>> thanks.
narke - 09 May 2005 09:39 GMT
> Hey guys,
>
> Is it ever possible to clear out the entire neg on tmax 100 from that pink
> look?
> I heard I just needed longer fixing times... but I just fixed one at 6min

i remeber somewhere (may be in Kodak's Tech Publish) suggested a 10min
fixing.

> and
> still has the pink tint...
>
> anyone ever fully clear it?  or is it even possible?
>
> thanks.
John Walton - 09 May 2005 14:04 GMT
The TMax films are meant to be rotary processed.  I find that frequent
agitation during the fix cycle helps. I find that using a dilute selenium
toner solution, or simply some household amonia --  1/2 capful in a liter of
water -- will clear the film.  Using dilute selenium toner boosts the
contrast a bit, btw

Pity that TechPan is going the way of the dodo --- the film base is
absolutely clear.

> Hey guys,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.
Richard Knoppow - 09 May 2005 14:34 GMT
I don't know where you got the idea that T-Max films are meant to be
rotary processed or that it would make any difference in the result.
Kodak gives instructions for all types of processing. Rotary
processing, that is, processing in drums, gives constant agitation but
so do other machine processing methods or plain old tray processing.
Rotary processing has the disadvantage of exposing a much larger area
of the processing solutions to the air. This is the main reason, along
the small quantities used, that requires one shot use of developers.
  The residual stain in T-Max, and some other films, comes from the
type of sensitizing dye used. This dye tends to be persistent. It binds
to the gelatin and probably the silver halide. By adjusting the pH of
the emulsion to a point which is above (more alkaline) than the
isoelectric point much of this binding is eliminated and the dye is
released. Photographic gelatin has an isoelectric point just on the
acid side of neutral. The use of a mildly alkaline bath, such as the
weak ammonia solution you mention, serves to raise the pH enough to
release both the dye and also hypo. Hypo is also bound by the electric
charges in the emulsion when its more acid than the isoelectric point.
The use of alkaline baths is well known and has been for decades. Agfa
still suggests a 2% solution of Sodium carbonate, but Kodak, as the
result of research many years ago, found that Ammonia is more
effective. An even better solution is the use of a buffered solution of
Sodium sulfite. Sulfite, beside being a mild alkali, also acts as an
ion exchanger for thiosulfate. By buffering it to neutral the solution
serves to make the gelatin high enough in pH to release hypo and dyes
without completely eliminating the hardening from alum hardener (which
operates only over a narrow pH window). Because the resulting pH is
close to the isoelectric point the swelling of the gelatin is near
minimum. It also has the ion exchange property of the sulfite, which
other salts either do not have or have in a lesser amount.
    Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is about a 2% solution of Sodium
sulfite, which is buffered to neutral with Sodium bisulfite. It also
contains a small amount of EDTA tetra sodium salt and sodium citrate
(becomes citric acid in solution) which act as preservatives for the
Sulfite, extending shelf life of the stock solution, and also sequester
insoluble salts in the water preventing sludging when the solution is
re-used.
    A two minute treatment in KHCA will remove the dye stain and also
helps to release some otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products. This
is important for films like T-Max and Tri-X, which have relatively
large amounts of slow to fix Silver Iodide in them.
     Note that 35mm T-Max, as well as most other 35mm B&W negative
materials, have a pigment in the support. This pigment is to prevent
conduction of light through the film base. It is permanent and not
affected by any processing solution. In most films it is a neutral gray
color.
     The residual sensitizing dye in T-Max is a weak pinkish magenta
and is quite uniform. If the film is not completely fixed it may have a
stronger color which can be blotchy looking. Film can be refixed
successfully if done soon enough after the original fixing. After a
couple of weeks the residual silver and fixer reaction products may be
transformed to a form which does not wash out.

--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Pieter Litchfield - 09 May 2005 18:08 GMT
Thanks - this is well written & useful!!

>I don't know where you got the idea that T-Max films are meant to be
> rotary processed or that it would make any difference in the result.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Richard Knoppow
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 May 2005 18:33 GMT
"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> ... T-Max films are [not necessarily] meant to be rotary processed ...
> Kodak gives instructions for all types of processing.

I think what is meant is that T-Max films need to be
well agitated in the fix and rotary processing assures this.
Jobo/drum/motor base processing is the only continuos agitation
method in general use and so "rotary == continuous agitation";
dip & dunk or nitrogen burst agitation would give similar
results.

TTBOMK, Kodak uses dip & dunk for determining developing times
and then multiplies by a fudge factor [the page # divided by the
temperature in Billings MT, same as for math homework] to get
times for other methods.  I am sure they use d&d for fixing
the film and so don't know what all the fuss is about re
pink negatives.

The old "Tri-X: drop it in the fix and go do something else
for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a
pink stripe down the middle of the roll.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Richard Knoppow - 10 May 2005 02:14 GMT
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a
> pink stripe down the middle of the roll.

  Absolutely! Both fixer and developer must be agitated
properly. Fixing time is decreased with agitation and is
probably minimum with constant agitation. Development rate
increases with agitation but continuous agitation is not
necessary to get good results provided there is sufficient
agitation. I think one reason people have problems with
development is incorrect or absent agitation.
  I have no idea what method Kodak uses for finding film
curves. The technique for measuring speed using the ISO
method is specified in the standard but may not be the same
as used for developing sensitometric tests.
 Dip and dunk machines are typically used for
photofinishing. Again, I have no idea what Kodak used for
its sensitometric testing.
 Fixing rate has been very extensively researched and there
is a ton of stuff in the literature about it. For films like
T-Max and Tri-X, which have lots of Silver Iodide in the
emulsion, Ammonium thiosulfate fixers ("rapid" fixers) have
an advantage in speed and completeness of fixing. Iodide
acts as a restrainer of fixing. Bromide does also but to
such a small degree that it is not significant. A good test
is to measure the clearing time of a film. This is the time
it takes undeveloped but wet film to become visually clear
in the fixing bath. The reason for using wetted film (soak
for two or three minutes in water) is that fixing rate and
the effect of the concentration of thiosulfate in the fixer,
changes with wet vs: dry film. The fixing rate of dry film
is misleading. The clearing time is an indicator of how well
the fixer is working with the specific film. Total fixing
time is, by old rule of thumb, double the clearing time.
There is also an old rule that the fixing bath should be
discarded when clearing time doubles from that of fresh
fixer. At least for a single bath, and probably even for two
bath fixing, this is too far exhausted for archival
processing and may indicate that the fixing process is not
being completed.
  It should be understood that clear film may still have
enough unfixed halide or insoluble fixer reaction products
in it to cause image degradation with time. The real test of
completeness of fixing is to use a test solution which will
convert any residual silver into a visible form. The usual
tests are a solution of Sodium Sulfide (not sulfite) or a
1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. Both the sulfide
and the selenium will tone halide as readily as metallic
silver so they leave a brown or yellow stain if there is
much residual silver in the emulsion. The Selenium test must
be used on well washed material because it fails if too much
hypo is left in the emulsion. This is too bad because it is
longer lasting than the sulfide solution and free from the
rotten egg odor of sulfide.
   The sulfide test is:

Kodak ST-1 Residual Silver Test Stock Solution
Water                         100.0 ml
Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous       2.0 grams

For use dilute 1 part stock with 9 parts water.

Place a couple of drops on a clear area of the print or
film, which should be wet but blotted free of surface water.
Allow to stand for 2 to 3 minutes and blot off. There
should be no visible stain.

If it is desired to use the print or negative it should be
washed following the test. If not washed the test area will
develop a stain with time.

 This is a better test than the Iodide test for fixing
baths because it is a direct test of fixer effectiveness.
For prints its best to fix and wash a scrap of paper for the
purposes of testing rather than using the border of an
actual print since the scrap can be tossed away after the
test is completed.

  I would like to find out from Kodak how they go about
sensitometric testing. I will try to write to my contact
there but the customer service people are pretty isolated
from whatever laboratory people are still there.
  BTW, I have always gotten good results from T-Max films
but they very certainly are more sensitive to variations in
development than other films. To get predictable contrast
one must be careful of temperature and time and consistent
in agitation. T-Max is capable of very high densities so
over exposed or over developed negatives can be extremely
difficult to print.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Frank Pittel - 10 May 2005 03:02 GMT
I've been working with Tmax films for a number of years.
As most of the people here know I use a jobo processor for
most of the film I shoot. For about 10% of the film I process
the film by hand. I also use Kodak's rapid fixer but used to use
Kodak's "regular powder" fixer.

I reuse the fixer and used to test it with hypo check. After a
while I noticed that if Tmax film didn't clear after a 5min fix and ten
minute wash the fixer was exhausted. As Kodak states clearly a little
bit of magenta stain in the negative doesn't effect the archivability
of the negative and doesn't effect printing. I can't make any claims
about the archivability I can state from experience that a little
stain has no effect printing the negative.

: > "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote
: >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
: > for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a
: > pink stripe down the middle of the roll.

:    Absolutely! Both fixer and developer must be agitated
: properly. Fixing time is decreased with agitation and is
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
: rotten egg odor of sulfide.
:     The sulfide test is:

: Kodak ST-1 Residual Silver Test Stock Solution
: Water                         100.0 ml
: Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous       2.0 grams

: For use dilute 1 part stock with 9 parts water.

: Place a couple of drops on a clear area of the print or
: film, which should be wet but blotted free of surface water.
: Allow to stand for 2 to 3 minutes and blot off. There
: should be no visible stain.

: If it is desired to use the print or negative it should be
: washed following the test. If not washed the test area will
: develop a stain with time.

:   This is a better test than the Iodide test for fixing
: baths because it is a direct test of fixer effectiveness.
: For prints its best to fix and wash a scrap of paper for the
: purposes of testing rather than using the border of an
: actual print since the scrap can be tossed away after the
: test is completed.

:    I would like to find out from Kodak how they go about
: sensitometric testing. I will try to write to my contact
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: over exposed or over developed negatives can be extremely
: difficult to print.

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 May 2005 15:26 GMT
> "Nicholas Lindan" wrote:
> > TTBOMK, Kodak uses dip & dunk for determining developing
> > times
> I have no idea what method Kodak uses for finding film
> curves.

I seem to remember a description of Kodak using d&d and
a fudge factor to figure developing times from an article
about the development [er, creation] of Xtol in
Photo Techniques magazine.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

John - 11 May 2005 06:41 GMT
>I seem to remember a description of Kodak using d&d and
>a fudge factor to figure developing times from an article
>about the development [er, creation] of Xtol in
>Photo Techniques magazine.

    Yep. Photo Techniques gave a complete story on Xtol and how Sylvia Z. and Dick D.
established all of the times for the original J107 publication.

JD - www.puresilver.org
Lloyd Erlick - 10 May 2005 15:21 GMT
>...
>The old "Tri-X: drop it in the fix and go do something else
>for 10 minutes" method is almost guaranteed to result in a

>pink stripe down the middle of the roll.
...

may1005 from Lloyd Erlick,

Pink Skunk:

Three ounces Tequila
One ounce exhausted fixer
Garnish with strip of inadequately fixed 35mm film

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John - 11 May 2005 06:46 GMT
>Three ounces Tequila
>One ounce exhausted fixer
>Garnish with strip of inadequately fixed 35mm film

    Well that's one way to cleanse your colon !

JD - www.puresilver.org
John - 11 May 2005 06:31 GMT
> [the page # divided by the
>temperature in Billings MT, same as for math homework]

    Ah ! This explains Sylvias inaccuracies with Xtol !

JD
Johnson - 10 May 2005 13:56 GMT
I got the idea from Kodak.

> I don't know where you got the idea that T-Max films are meant to be
> rotary processed
Lloyd Erlick - 10 May 2005 15:09 GMT
>The TMax films are meant to be rotary processed.  I find that frequent
>agitation during the fix cycle helps. I find that using a dilute selenium
>toner solution, or simply some household amonia --  1/2 capful in a liter of
>water -- will clear the film.
...

may1005 from Lloyd Erlick,

If I recall, Kodak specifies continuous agitation in the fixer for
T-Max films. I use a double-bath setup for my film fixer, and I
agitate the whole time the film is fixing. My T-Max 400 (TMY) negs
never have any color. If I'm careless and over-use my fixer, the color
is present.

The effect of ammonia is interesting. I hadn't thought of that.
Treatment with selenium is supposed to be an archival enhancement in
processing black and white negatives, too.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Pieter Litchfield - 10 May 2005 15:20 GMT
My Kodak data manual has procedures for both small tank and sheet Tmax.  As
a 35mm/120 user, I use small tanks.  The procedure calls for 5 seconds of
agitation every 30.  5 quick flips of the wrist.

>>The TMax films are meant to be rotary processed.  I find that frequent
>>agitation during the fix cycle helps. I find that using a dilute selenium
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> net: www.heylloyd.com
> ________________________________
John - 11 May 2005 06:45 GMT
>If I recall, Kodak specifies continuous agitation in the fixer for
>T-Max films

"Fix at 65 to 75°F (18 to 24°C) for 3 to 5 minutes with
vigorous agitation in KODAK Rapid Fixer. Be sure to agitate
the film frequently during fixing."

JD - www.puresilver.org
John - 11 May 2005 06:28 GMT
>The TMax films are meant to be rotary processed.

    John you know better than this !

JD - www.puresilver.org
Javi L - 09 May 2005 16:09 GMT
Fixing a couple more minutes will help to remove the pink tint. The little
pink will be out during the wash. Wash it till Tmax is completely
transparent, once you think it´s fixed and washed leave the films in steady
water and the pink will go off with ease.

> Hey guys,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.
John - 11 May 2005 06:27 GMT
>Hey guys,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>anyone ever fully clear it?  or is it even possible?

    Put it on your lightbox for a little while. The dye is UV sensitive and will fade.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org

Millions of men have lived to fight, build palaces and boundaries, shape destinies and
societies; but the most compelling force of all times has been the force of originality
and creation profoundly affecting the roots of human spirit.
Ansel Adams
 
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