Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2005
Flattening 8x10 B&W
|
|
Thread rating:  |
John - 07 May 2005 23:31 GMT I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
Thanks...
Gregory Blank - 08 May 2005 01:24 GMT > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? > > Thanks... Are they fiberbase or resin coated?
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
John - 08 May 2005 01:33 GMT > > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? > > > > Thanks... > > Are they fiberbase or resin coated? Not sure... they range from 40 to 70 years old...
pgg - 08 May 2005 01:26 GMT dry-mount the prints onto foam-core?
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? > > Thanks... John - 08 May 2005 01:34 GMT I don't want them permanently mounted...
> dry-mount the prints onto foam-core? > > > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? PGG - 08 May 2005 06:15 GMT > I don't want them permanently mounted... Then get them wet and use an iron, set for the coolest setting, and iron them flat!
I use my dry-mount press to flatten prints even if I don't actually mount them to anything
Jean-David Beyer - 08 May 2005 02:28 GMT > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were rolled up. > Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? My guess is that they are single-weight fibre-base prints. I suggest you wash them, and perhaps fix them again in a fresh bath first, and dry face down on screens in a room that is not too dry. Then flatten them in a dry mount press. For best results, dry mount them.
If you just try to unroll them, you will probably crack the surface and destroy them.
I never tried steaming them, but perhaps placing them in a very humid room for some hours (overnight) would help them relax. I would not hold them over a teakettle.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 21:25:00 up 13 days, 15:03, 5 users, load average: 4.26, 4.17, 4.10
David Nebenzahl - 08 May 2005 02:34 GMT On 5/7/2005 3:31 PM John spake thus:
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? I would say to soak them in water for a while, then dry them as you'd dry any print (fiber-based, which I think it's safe to say they are).
Carefully. Water won't hurt them at all, but you're going to have to hold them down in the tray somehow while they soak.
 Signature It's a good guess that one of two things is going to happen in the coming days and weeks: Either Bolton goes down—-or we start learning a lot of unpleasant things about Sen. George Voinovich.
- _Slate_, 4/19/05 (http://slate.msn.com/id/2117028/)
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 08 May 2005 23:59 GMT > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? > > Thanks... Search this NG for, observations . Mr. Erlick posted a site on that thread which goes into detail. The subjects are important papers, books, etc. I think the methods can also be applied to "some old 8x10 B&W photos". Dan
Lloyd Erlick - 09 May 2005 18:58 GMT >> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were >> rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >papers, books, etc. I think the methods can also be applied >to "some old 8x10 B&W photos". Dan may905 from Lloyd Erlick,
That citation was:
--------- http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic31-02-003_4.html journal of the American Institute for conservation JAIC 1992, Volume 31, Number 2, Article 3 (pp. 175 to 197)
OBSERVATIONS ON THE DRYING OF PAPER: FIVE DRYING METHODS AND THE DRYING PROCESS JANE E. SUGARMAN, & TIMOTHY J. VITALE -------------
However, I think it may be a bit of overkill for the problem at hand. Another poster suggested normal darkroom technique, which was to wet the prints and re-fix, and wash as for newly made prints. Normal drying on screens or by hanging, and flatten when dry in a mounting press.
I'd be inclined to wet them in distilled water, just because I'm that way. And if they are relatively small prints like 8x10s, I probably would flatten them under weight (glass sheets, etc.) after they were dry. (Actually, if I were doing it, I'd flatten them that way even if they were 20x24s, because I am geared for it ...).
All after testing on a single representative print that was the least valuable of the lot.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Richard Knoppow - 11 May 2005 01:36 GMT >>> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which >>> were [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > net: www.heylloyd.com > ________________________________ The journal article applies to uncoated paper. Photographic prints are a complex structure. "Fiber" base prints are coated on special paper which has a sizing of hard gelatin. This sizing may consist of several layers of hard gelatin at one layer of which contains a reflective substance, in fiber paper usually Barium Sulfate (Baryta). The gelatin emulsion is coated on top of this substrate. Most papers also have a coating of hard gelatin over the emulsion to resist abrasion. The reason that paper curls is that the emulsion and substrates shrink at a different rate than the paper backing. The shrinkage depends on the moisture content of the gelatin. When the paper is subjected to high heat during drying so much moisture is driven out that the gelatin becomes very shrunken causing strong curling. Many commercially made prints were dryed on heated drum dryers, often at high heat to increase production rate. In addition some prints were subjected to mechanical deformation in so called print straightening machines. These machines draw the print over a straight edge to stretch the gelatin layers mechanically. After many years of storage, especially at low humidity, the gelatin layers may become very brittle. Adding moisture may at least partially repair this but it also may cause some damaged gelatin to come off the paper base. I don't see any advantage to refixing. Any residual silver in the prints will long ago have changed to a form which is no longer made soluble by fixing. If the prints do not show staining there is no residual silver in them anyway. The hardener in the fixing bath is also probably not desirable as strongly curled prints indicate the gelatin is already badly shrunken and hardening it will just make it more resistant to swelling again. Seriously damaged prints really require expert attention. There are conservators who specialize in this area. If rewetting is tried the prints should be dried slowly and in a condition where the support dries faster than the emulsion to minimise the differential shrinkage. This is generally good practice for fiber prints. Note that flattening prints in a dry mount press also requires differential drying. Prints flattened this way should be placed in the press with the emulsion side against a sheet of release paper. This effectively shrinks the support more than the emulsion, which is what is wanted. The use of humectants, like Glycerol, may reduce the shrinkage of the emulsion but is not recommended for archival prints because the contained moisture tends to encourage the growth of mold.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Jean-David Beyer - 11 May 2005 02:08 GMT Richard Knoppow wrote (in part):
> I don't see any advantage to refixing. Any residual > silver in the prints will long ago have changed to a form [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > already badly shrunken and hardening it will just make it > more resistant to swelling again. The only reason I suggested refixing (not re-hardening) was to remove residual silver in the prints since apparently may prints were fixed in overworked fixer when some photofinishers did not emphasize archival processing. If the prints were kept dark, would the halide and thiosulphate complexes change into unfixable stuff? I know when I first started printing, I used exhausted rapid fix, and the prints looked fine for a few days, but then the whites turned purple. Now old poorly fixed (or poorly washed, or both) prints I have seen (some of which I made myself) had the highlights turn slightly sepia after a few years (10 or so), which I did not like. Luckily, I processed negatives pretty well from the beginning, so I could always reprint.
I never had double weight prints curl much; I tried single weight paper long ago to save money on the theory that it did not matter if I was going to dry mount them anyway. Well, it did matter. There was always just one whisker of dust that got between the paper and the mount board, and with SW paper, it always showed.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 21:00:00 up 16 days, 14:38, 4 users, load average: 4.47, 4.25, 4.10
John - 11 May 2005 06:38 GMT >There was always just one whisker of >dust that got between the paper and the mount board, and with SW paper, it >always showed. The same for all RC's as well. I used to mount a lot of color and I always printed an extra 16X20 for this reason.
JD - www.puresilver.org
Richard Knoppow - 09 May 2005 07:09 GMT If they are stiff don't try to unroll them. Prints made by photofinishers and some professional photographers may have been heat dried at too high a temperature or for too long. This changes the structure of the gelatin emulsion and the gelatin paper sizing under the emulsion. The result is that they curl very strongly from having shrunk and become very brittle. If prints like this are unrolled the surface will crack or craze. I have found very little specfic advise about conserving these photos. Its possible they would respond to soaking but at least one source, I think the Kodak book on conserving photos (Publication No. F-40) recommends against this. I suggest contacting a conservator at the Getty Museum in Los Angeles to see if you can get any advice before doing anything. If the photos are not really valuable you might try soaking them in water for several minutes and see if they begin to uncurl. Once the gelatin has swelled the prints should flatten out. If this is successful they should be dried slowly, preferably using a photo blotter with a sheet of non-absorbent materal over the emulsion side. This keeps the emulsion from drying out too quickly, that is, the print dries from the support side. Drying under some weight should keep the print flat. I have encountered prints which were dried with a high gloss surface on a heated drum drier which were so brittle that the emulsion fell apart in chips when the paper was flexed. There is probably a better treatment for really brittle prints like this but I've never seen it specified. A good photo conservator should be able to help but it may take some effort to contact one who is really knowledgible. The Getty and the Library of Congress are good places to start.
-- Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
John - 09 May 2005 17:46 GMT > specified. A good photo conservator should be able to help but it may > take some effort to contact one who is really knowledgible. The Getty > and the Library of Congress are good places to start. Thanks for the suggestions Richard...
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 May 2005 15:08 GMT "John" <john@att.net> wrote in message
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them? Take Richard Knoppow's advice and make sure the print won't get damaged by uncurling. I am not quite sure how to view a curled up print, so unrolling with a bit of damage may be preferable to a perfectly preserved, though invisible, photograph.
Some papers were more given to cracking than others. Velour Black by Dupont was really bad in this respect.
Try flexing an unimportant corner - if it seems flexible then I would uncurl the print and scan it / make a copy negative.
If the curl is gentle then lightly wetting the back of the print and placing the print to dry between blotters under a tall stack of books can often work. In my youth I put the print in a white pages phone book and stacked a few bricks on the book. Inks may have changed and may now transfer to the photo, so do a test on a scrap photo first.
I have had great success with soaking the print in Pakosol print flattener and then drying it. Print flattener solutions appear to be mixtures of assorted glycols. Edwal's, IIRC, doesn't work for beans ...
Dried out, brittle, gelatin, being a protein, may respond to hair creme-rinse or hand lotion. Beer also works. This may make the print pliable enough that it can be unrolled safely and copied. I make no claims here - this may be the _worst_ thing one can do - so proceed at your own risk. But great discoveries are always made with bold strokes and heroic measures.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
John - 09 May 2005 17:51 GMT > "John" <john@att.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > great discoveries are always made with bold strokes and > heroic measures. Thanks for all the suggestions. I think, however, I'll skip the hand lotion and beer ideas... :-)
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 May 2005 18:36 GMT > Nick wrote > > > How to flatten old prints? > > [rational suggestions] devolving into "hand lotion & beer" > I think, however, I'll skip the hand lotion and beer ideas... :-) Wuss.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Richard Knoppow - 10 May 2005 02:19 GMT >> Nick wrote >> > > How to flatten old prints? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wuss. If you use too much hand lotion you tend to drop the beer.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
|
|
|