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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005Substitute for Kodalk?
Yes I'm back again for some suggestions... I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for photography... I have caught some formulas on the web for a Xtol type recipe but there is written some Kodalk or Balanced Alkali. CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a mix of them? Some suggestions please!! :D Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > Yes I'm back again for some suggestions... > I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... In order to make 1.0g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate, mix 0.692g borax and 0.145g sodium hydroxide. When dissolved in water, these two make solutions of identical composition. From Ryuji Suzuki.......http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/chemistry-misnomers.html Glenn Booth >> Yes I'm back again for some suggestions... >> I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Glenn Booth apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick, I've been saving references about the various mixtures of borax and sodium hydroxide that supposedly react to form sodium metaborate (Kodalk). Here are the ones I've got so far, to add to the one above. They don't seem to be the same to me, but I have no real expertise, so if someone could clarify I'd sure appreciate it. attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz via APUG: 100g sodium metaborate (Kodalk) == 45.45g borax + 9.53g NaOH 100 g Kodalk (sodium metaborate octahydrate) == 40.5 g borax + 9.53 g NaOH. attributed to Maxim M. Muir: To make 1 liter, 165gr borax, and 35gr sodium hydroxide. That is for 1 liter 20% metaborate. Ryuji Suzuki's page called chemistry-misnomers.html describes the confusion over the nomenclature for sodium metaborate, and states that the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an earlier period. ... >>> Ciao, >>> Stefano Bramato [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >the term octahydrate is incorrect and stems from nomenclature of an >earlier period. apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick, -Plus the following: From: Roman Kielich® Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:16:44 +1100 it is school chemistry, not patent. 1 mole of borax plus two moles of sodium hydroxide gives 4 moles of Kodalk and one mole of water. 1 mole of borax decahydrated is 381.37 g 1 mole of NaOH is 40 4 moles of Kodalk is 4 times 65.82 (anhydrous) Na2B4O7+2 NaOH -> 4 NaBO2 + H20 -also: attributed to Michael Gudzinowicz-- to make a quantity equivalent to 100 g sodium metaborate octahydrate: 100 g sodium metaborate tetrahydrate == 90.89 g borax + 9.53 g NaOH Molecular weights: Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) 381.42 Sodium metaborate octahydrate 209.82 Sodium hydroxide 40.01 Since two mols of NaOH are required per tetraborate: 381.42 g borax + 80.02 g NaOH == 419.64 g metaborate octahydrate (all in solution). I think typos have crept in! If someone could post a correct version ... regards, --le  Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >... >>>> Ciao, [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >net: www.heylloyd.com >________________________________ apr2705 from Lloyd Erlick, I found a comment by Patrick Gainer: By gainer - 03:41 PM, 10-08-2004 The confusion over 4 mol and 8 mol need not be. The number of atoms of boron, hydrogen, oxygen and sodium is the same in any given weight of either one. If you want the equivalent of 100 grams of the Kodalk that Hutchings has in PMK, use 69 grams of 20 Mule Team borax with 14.5 grams of Red Devil lye. Sodium metaborate 8 mol has exactly twice the molecular weight of sodium metaborate 4 mol, according to the manufacturer. By gainer - 09:16 PM, 10-10-2004 I should have mentioned the place to verify this info iw www.borax.com, by the 20 Mule Team people. With organic chemistry you can never be sure abour ionic reactions and combinations. With inorganic chemistry, you can be fairly sure that if there are the same number of atoms of each element in solution, it won't make any difference how they got there. --------------- regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ I have a book published by Kodak titled: KODAK HANDBOOK FOR THE PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER (VOLUME 4), inside the book is a formulary of Kodak B&W chemicals, the formula for the 10 grams of Sodium Metaborate needed for the DK-50 formula using Borax-Decahydrate and Sodium Hydroxide is as follows: Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic soda), dissolve separately in 100 ml of cold water, 1.5 grams of the caustic soda adding it very slowly, stirring constantly. NEVER add the water to the caustic soda. The amount of Borax-Decahydrate that is needed is 7 grams, this book dates back to the 1970s when Sodium Metaborate was not so readily available as it is today in the UK. Don't you think that it would be better to buy the Sodium Metaborate in the first place ? >>... >>>>> Ciao, [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > net: www.heylloyd.com > ________________________________ > I have a book published by Kodak titled: KODAK HANDBOOK FOR THE >PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER (VOLUME 4), inside the book is a formulary of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Don't you think that it would be better to buy the Sodium Metaborate in the >first place ? Yes but only because it keeps better on the shelf. Also the prepared blend by a lab will probably be better than what you can make in your darkroom. When it comes to bathroom processing of films, I'm all for the KISS approach. That's why I prefer D23 it's simple and simply works. JD - www.puresilver.org > Yes but only because it keeps better on the shelf. Also the prepared blend > by a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > JD - www.puresilver.org Metaborate is very easy to mix, I never have any problems. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 >Metaborate is very easy to mix, I never have any problems. Yeah but then you're not exactly Joe Average in the darkroom either. JD - www.puresilver.org >> I have a book published by Kodak titled: KODAK HANDBOOK FOR THE >>PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER (VOLUME 4), inside the book is a formulary of [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > JD - www.puresilver.org John, D-23 is fine by me if that is what you like using, some people who make their own D-23 or D-25 may wish to use the DK-25R replenisher which requires 20 grams of Sodium Metaborate, now you could use 2.9 grams of Sodium Hydroxide and 14 grams of Borax-Decahydrate, but you mention that you like to keep things simple, isn't buying and using Sodium Metaborate in the first place the KISS approach ? It is hardly an expensive component to buy and far less hassle than dissolving two separate components. I sometimes use one of the sons of D-23 called Ilford Perceptol, luvverly stuff ! Cheers, Keith. >John, D-23 is fine by me if that is what you like using, some people who >make their own D-23 or D-25 may wish to use the DK-25R replenisher which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Cheers, >Keith. I agree but I don't use metaborate or hydroxide anymore. I only use carbonate for paper developers. Now D-23 with about 1.0 g/L of metaborate might be interesting. A spit-stock mixed immediately prior to use. Hmmmm, might just have to try that sometime. Thanks for the idea. JD - www.puresilver.org > Yes I'm back again for some suggestions... > I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > CAn I substitute with another alkaline agent as Borax or Sodium CArbonate or a > mix of them? I can't answer that specific question, but I can provide pointers to some XTOL-like (that is, ascorbic acid-based) developers, none of which specify Kodalk: http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/film-dev-recommend.html http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/VitC/vitc.html http://www.jackspcs.com/mytol.htm http://www.udmercy.edu/crna/agm/phenvitc.htm I've also run across a Rodinal-type ascorbic acid developer: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html (That one's in a sidebar entitled "Patrick Gainer Rodinal/Ascorbic Acid Formula.") I've not yet used any of these, though; I'm just starting to gather information with the goal of eventually mixing my own developers. SignatureRod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking You can substitute either borax or carbonate for the metaborate. Borax will give longer development times since it is a weaker activating agent. Carbonate will give shorter developing times because it is a more active agent. But if you don't mind experimenting with the times to find the right time for normal development, neither substitute is likely to make much difference in the final image. Both will work. >Yes I'm back again for some suggestions... >I'm trying to do some Xtol type recipe too, I spend most of my freetime for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >ed io imparo... > LR Kalajainen says... > You can substitute either borax or carbonate for the metaborate. Borax > will give longer development times since it is a weaker activating > agent. Carbonate will give shorter developing times because it is a > more active agent. Ok i know this. And it's a good think to remind to me!! :D > But if you don't mind experimenting with the times > to find the right time for normal development, neither substitute is > likely to make much difference in the final image. Both will work. The only thing is to test by myself, with borax and/or sodium carbonate. Yeah. HAve you some starting point to work with? Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... I don't know what film you're using, but I use both Delta 400 and Fuji ACROS 100. I use a Phenidone/Ascorbic Acid/Carbonate developer. With Delta 400, a good starting time would be 5:30 at 20C. With ACROS, 7:30 at 20C. >LR Kalajainen says... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >ed io imparo... > LR Kalajainen says ... > I don't know what film you're using, but I use both Delta 400 and Fuji > ACROS 100. I use a Phenidone/Ascorbic Acid/Carbonate developer. > > With Delta 400, a good starting time would be 5:30 at 20C. > With ACROS, 7:30 at 20C. Most of time I use Neopan 400 and Acros 100 for 120 format rolls. But in this time i'm experimenting with delta 400 so it's ok. Can you send to me the exact recipe for your soup? I'm everytime a newbie and don't want to go wrong!! Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... You're in luck. I've also used Fuji Neopan 400 and have times for it as well. 2 g. Ascorbic Acid 5 g Sodium Metaborate (For Fuji, substitute 6 g Sodium Carbonate) 4ml 1% Phenidone solution (1 g Phenidone dissolved in 100 ml 90% alcohol) Delta 400--6:30 at 22C. Fuji:--7:00 at 22C. (with carbonate instead of metaborate. With metaborate, 10 minutes at 22C.) Hope this works for you as well as it's worked for me. Larry >LR Kalajainen says ... > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >ed io imparo... > > The only thing is to test by myself, ... If one is going custom blend an alkali why bother with borax, lye, and metaborate? Blend a custom alkali using carbonate and bicarbonate. What is so great about metaborate? Two things; Kodak and Kodalk. I seem to recall reading that Kodak developed a process for producing sodium metaborate. As it does fill the bill as an alkali twixt the ph of carbonate and bicarbonate Kodalk pushed the product. For ph control, Kodalk - sodium metaborate, is not needed. For any usuall film and print developing a combination of carbonate/bicarbonate can be compounded for shorter or longer developing times. If you have a way to check ph, experiment some by testing the ph of a few blends of the two carbonates. Dan >>The only thing is to test by myself, ... > > If one is going custom blend an alkali why bother > with borax, lye, and metaborate? Blend a custom alkali using > carbonate and bicarbonate. > What is so great about metaborate? Two things; Kodak and Kodalk. Different buffering can be arranged with different compounds. Kodalk is Kodak's brand of sodium metaborate. But it is a useful component of a buffering solution. Here are some. Ph Components 2.0 Glycocoil-sodium chloride-hydrochloric acid 2.8 Potassium acid pthalate-hydrochloric acid 3.7 Primary potassium citrate 4.6 Acetic acid-sodium acetate 5.0 Potassium acid phthalate-sodium hydroxide 5.0 Secondary sodium citrate 6.8 Potassium acid phosphate-disodium phosphate 6.8 Potassium acid phosphate-sodium hydroxide 8.5 Boric acid-borax 9.2 Borax 9.2 Boric acid-sodium hydroxide 10.2 Sodium bicarbonate-sodium carbonate 11.5 Disodium phosphate-sodium hydroxide What you use depends on the pH you wish to achieve and the capacity you need. I.e., you would not wish to mix hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide in different amounts to get the desired pH because the amount of each would be too small to do any significant buffering even though almost any initial pH could be achieved. Note that developer D-76 uses 2 grams of Borax to achieve the desired pH. D-76d should have about the same pH initially, but holds it better. It uses 8 grams of borax and 8 grams of boric acid. DK-76 uses 2 grams of sodium metaborate (Kodalk). These probably all give an initial pH of around 8.5. > I seem to recall reading that Kodak developed a process for producing > sodium metaborate. As it does fill the bill as an alkali twixt the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > developing times. If you have a way to check ph, experiment some > by testing the ph of a few blends of the two carbonates. Dan Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 20:50:00 up 5 days, 14:27, 3 users, load average: 4.35, 4.26, 4.11 >You can substitute either borax or carbonate for the metaborate. Borax >will give longer development times since it is a weaker activating >agent. Carbonate will give shorter developing times because it is a >more active agent. But if you don't mind experimenting with the times >to find the right time for normal development, neither substitute is >likely to make much difference in the final image. Both will work. I have found quite a significant difference. When images are developed to the same contrast index, those developed in carbonate are significantly grainier than those developed in Borax . JD - www.puresilver.org I think this depends on the film. I mostly use the T-grain films (Delta, ACROS, (new) Neopan and it's pretty hard for me to tell much difference in grain size in enlargments up to 11X14. I suspect with older films, TX, FP4, etc, you're correct. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >JD - www.puresilver.org > >I think this depends on the film. > >I mostly use the T-grain films (Delta, ACROS, (new) Neopan and it's >pretty hard for me to tell much difference in grain size in enlargments >up to 11X14. I suspect with older films, TX, FP4, etc, you're correct. Actually I only use Delta or T-Max. The other films are interesting but I prefer fine grain and high resolution. The film I specifically tried with carbonate was T-Max 100. It looked like P3200 pulled to EI800. JD - www.puresilver.org This may be true with a metol-based developer; I don't know. My film developer is a very simple, 3-ingredient affair, using Phenidone, Vitamin C powder, and either metaborate or carbonate depending on which film. These give me developing times in the 6-7 minute range with full tonal scale and extremely fine grain and very high acutance. Since I hate grainy negs, I wouldn't be using it if it gave me enlarged grain. If you want to try it, here's the formula. 1/2tsp Vitamin C powder (4g) 1 tsp metaborate (5g) or carbonate (6g) depending on film (carbonate for D-100, ACROS, and Neopan) 4 ml 1% stock Phenidone 1 liter water My times: D-400 rated at 200: 6:00 at 72F Fuji ACROS rated at 50 7:15 at 72F Neopan rated at 200: 6:30 at 72F HP5+ sheets tray developed, rated at 200: 6:30 at 72F I've been told by my chemical betters that I could get by with half the Phenidone without any change, and I just haven't gotten round to trying it. Larry > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >JD - www.puresilver.org > LR Kalajainen says ... > This may be true with a metol-based developer; I don't know. My film > developer is a very simple, 3-ingredient affair, using Phenidone, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Neopan rated at 200: 6:30 at 72F > HP5+ sheets tray developed, rated at 200: 6:30 at 72F FAntastic. We use almost the same films. I'm so grateful to you!! I can learn more so I'm haaaaaaaaaaaappppy!! :D Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > [films] developed in carbonate are significantly grainier than those > developed in Borax . The only use I have found for extra carbonate is in paper developer where it deepens the shadows a smidge. Adding carbonate for the shadows and a (small) amount of p. bromide to keep highlights clear was recommended by - ? - Minor White (so I imagine the addition leads to a more spiritual experience). Lootens claims carbonate can be used to salvage almost exhausted paper developer -- useful to know if paper developer can't be found around the corner and you find yourself short. I have never tried it. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ Carbonate is the principal alkali in most paper developers. I also use it to give me somewhat shorter developing times with Fuji ACROS and Neopan than I can get with metaborate, and the grain is fine enough that I have difficulty finding with my 25X Scoponet it in order to focus at an 11X14 enlargement. Larry > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > >Carbonate is the principal alkali in most paper developers. > >I also use it to give me somewhat shorter developing times with Fuji >ACROS and Neopan than I can get with metaborate, and the grain is fine >enough that I have difficulty finding with my 25X Scoponet it in order >to focus at an 11X14 enlargement. Just call me picky but I can find the grain in Tech Pan at 25X. Using D76, grain is easily visible in most prints from 400 ASA film at 6X and in 100ASA prints at 10X. JD - www.puresilver.org Yep, you're right about D-76, which is why I don't use it. The Phenidone/Vit.C formula gives much finer grain. It's not that I can't see it at all, but relatively speaking, it's fine enough with a 4X5 negative to cause me difficulties in focusing with a grain focuser. > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >JD - www.puresilver.org > |
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