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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2005EXPERT Development substitution: some suggestions please.
In many development recipe there is often sodium sulphite to raise enough alkalinity and as preservant. I'm writing about film development. Most of times I use my Microphen Type or ID-11 type recipe where is some sod.sulphite and diluting 1+1 times are going somewhat longer for my processes. My question is: can I make a substitution (partial of total )of Sod.Sulphite with sodium Carbonate to have faster develop time and more buffering capacities? And someone know the percent of subsitution? Hope my words are ok... Can anyone help me please? Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > In many development recipe there is often sodium sulphite to raise enough > alkalinity and as preservant. Actually, the sodium sulphite is present in excess of what is needed as a preservative. Sodium sulphite in the range of 50-100g/l acts as a solvent, giving finer gain. It has hardly any effect on alkalinity. > I'm writing about film development. > > Most of times I use my Microphen Type or ID-11 type recipe where is some > sod.sulphite and diluting 1+1 times are going somewhat longer for my processes. Most developers are in fact too strong. If you really want to accelerate the rate of development, then add borax or sodium carbonate. You'll have to titrate the amounts on your own, but I'd start with 2g/l and increase by intervals of 2 g/l from that point on until you have reached your desired activity. > My question is: can I make a substitution (partial of total )of Sod.Sulphite > with sodium Carbonate to have faster develop time and more buffering > capacities? No. They are not used for the same purpose in developers. > And someone know the percent of subsitution? See above. > Hope my words are ok... > > Can anyone help me please? > > Ciao, > Stefano Bramato I would really hesitate, though, to do this. I would agree with UC about adding sodium carbonate in small stages if you want to do this. A few grams per litre will go a long way. But I disagree that sodium sulfite has no effect on alkalinity -- sodium sulfite is a weak base in alkaline solution and is (to my knowledge) the only base or activator in the D23/Perceptol/Microdol class of developers. Most developers are pretty well buffered as it is. What developer is it that you want to "speed up"? >>In many development recipe there is often sodium sulphite to raise > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > I would really hesitate, though, to do this. Forse forse il Newsgroup serve bene e Jordan W. oggi dice che... > But I disagree that sodium sulfite has no effect on alkalinity -- > sodium sulfite is a weak base in alkaline solution and is (to my > knowledge) the only base or activator in the D23/Perceptol/Microdol > class of developers. Most developers are pretty well buffered as it > is. that is what i read about, that sulphite (i.e. for id11) is often the alkalisator of the stock. It's action is weak and has also the solvent action on film. BUt is an alkali. > What developer is it that you want to "speed up"? I want to speed up the Microphen type diluted 1+1 or the ID11 1+1. Myabe there are more efficient ways (like increasing Hydroquinone and Phenidone) but i no skills to do this and I want to start by increasing the alkali as written in some cookbooks. Suggestions are welcome from everybody!! Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... The alkalinity effect of sodium sulphite is very weak, almost non-existent. D-23 uses a lot of it, and still the developing times are quite long. Acceleration of development is not its primary function, or even its secondary function. 2 grams of borax produces far more alkalinity than 100 grams of sodium sulphite. > Forse forse il Newsgroup serve bene e Jordan W. oggi dice che... > > But I disagree that sodium sulfite has no effect on alkalinity -- > > sodium sulfite is a weak base in alkaline solution and is (to my > > knowledge) the only base or activator in the D23/Perceptol/Microdol > > class of developers. Most developers are pretty well buffered as it > > is. > > that is what i read about, that sulphite (i.e. for id11) is often the > alkalisator of the stock. It's action is weak and has also the solvent action > on film. BUt is an alkali. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Myabe there are more efficient ways (like increasing Hydroquinone and > Phenidone) but i no skills to do this and I want to start by increasing the > alkali as written in some cookbooks. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... [SNIP] > 2 grams of borax produces far more > alkalinity than 100 grams of sodium sulphite. Thanks UC, today i will try with 4g of borax more at time for my rolls. Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... Start with 2 grams/liter, not 4. > [SNIP] > > 2 grams of borax produces far more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... UC says ... > Start with 2 grams/liter, not 4. thanks again UC Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > UC says ... > > Start with 2 grams/liter, not 4. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... You're welcome. I don't get it, Stefano. Microphen or D-76 1:1 develop most films in less than 10 minutes! The shortest time I like to use is 8 minutes! Times that are too short (under 8 minutes) give uneven development. > Forse forse il Newsgroup serve bene e Jordan W. oggi dice che... > > But I disagree that sodium sulfite has no effect on alkalinity -- > > sodium sulfite is a weak base in alkaline solution and is (to my > > knowledge) the only base or activator in the D23/Perceptol/Microdol > > class of developers. Most developers are pretty well buffered as it > > is. > > that is what i read about, that sulphite (i.e. for id11) is often the > alkalisator of the stock. It's action is weak and has also the solvent action > on film. BUt is an alkali. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Myabe there are more efficient ways (like increasing Hydroquinone and > Phenidone) but i no skills to do this and I want to start by increasing the > alkali as written in some cookbooks. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... > But I disagree that sodium sulfite has no effect > on alkalinity - sodium sulfite is a weak base in > alkaline solution ... S. Sulfite is slightly more an alkali than S. Tetraborate. It does serve as the only alkali and the preservative in a few formulas including D76 and Id-ll. S. Tetraborate's roll in those two developers is not that of alkali. The little Borax in those two developers helps maintain a constant ph; maintains against the OH radical prodution of hydroquinone as it oxidizes. Dan HI UC thanks for suggestions. I will not hesitate to experiment because this is my strongest passion and I will keep it until I die. Or I become indecently poor. :D Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... >In many development recipe there is often sodium sulphite to raise enough >alkalinity and as preservant. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Ciao, >Stefano Bramato I would recommend that you stick with either Borax or metaborate rather than going to carbonate unless you're developing 5X7 or larger. Carbonate causes the granularity to really (and I mean REALLY !) balloon. Add 5 grams to each liter of developer prior to use. That should "pick up the tempo" a little without blowing out the grain. JD - www.puresilver.org John <> says ... > I would recommend that you stick with either Borax or metaborate rather than going > to carbonate unless you're developing 5X7 or larger. Carbonate causes the granularity to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > JD - www.puresilver.org thanks john. I've added your site on my bookmarks too!! Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > ... can I make a substitution (partial of total ) > of Sod.Sulphite with sodium Carbonate to have faster > develop time and more buffering capacities? Check out the Beutler and FX-1 type of developers. Metol, sulfite, and carbonate are all that is needed. They are compensating developers used very dilute, somewhat like Rodinal. Dan dan.c.quinn@att.net says ... > > ... can I make a substitution (partial of total ) > > of Sod.Sulphite with sodium Carbonate to have faster [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They are compensating developers used very dilute, > somewhat like Rodinal. Dan Very interesting. Thanks!! Ciao, Stefano Bramato -- ed io imparo... > > Check out the Beutler and FX-1 type of developers. > > Metol, sulfite, and carbonate are all that is needed. > > They are compensating developers used very dilute, > > somewhat like Rodinal. Dan I can almost swear FX-1 has Iodine in the formula.  SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 ID-11 and Kodak D-76 are almost identical. Microphen is similar but uses Phenidone instead of Metol and has a somewhat different pH as required by the developing agents. In all three the alkali is Borax. Sulfite serves a different purpose in developers than the alkali and it can not be replaced by alkali. Its possible to make a slower working version of D-76/ID-11 by making up a the buffered version. This has a buffer of Borax and Boric acid. When in equal amounts the developer has the same activity as regular D-76 but the activity can be varied over a wide range by changing the proportions of the two components. D-76d, the buffered version of D-76 is: Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 2.0 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 grams Hydroquinone 5.0 grams Borax 8.0 grams Boric Acid, crystaline 8.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter The minimum activity is gotten when the borax is reduced to 2.grams/liter and the boric acid increased to 6 grams/liter. A more active developer can be made by adjusting the other way. With 8 grams of each per liter the activity is the same as plain D-76 but has the advantage of not changing activity with time. Packaged D-76 is the buffered formula but packaged ID-11 is not buffered. Microphen is also buffered. If developing times are too short you might try a less active developer like D-23. This is just metol and sulfite. Metol has the property that it will develop in a neutral solution and is fairly active in the low pH solution given by sulfite without the presense of other alkalies. D-23 Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 7.5 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter An even slower developer, with extra-fine-grain properties can be made by buffering this to neutral pH, this is Kodak D-25 Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml Metol 7.5 grams Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 ml Sodium Bisulfite 15.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter Kodak Microdol-X and Ilford Perceptol, which are virtually identical, are better choices for an extra-fine-grain developer and both have relatively long developing times. -- Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com Sulfite had many roles in photographic solutions; in developers it can be used both to prevent oxidation of the developing agent(s) and also as an alkaline. I would suggest that if you want to experiment with a more active developer add carbonate but don't reduce the sulfite since it most likely is doing more that one job in your formula. Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > In many development recipe there is often sodium sulphite to raise enough > alkalinity and as preservant. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > ed io imparo... |
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