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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005

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is this a good deal?

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mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 19:48 GMT
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1

ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if
this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal,
but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which
might be good or bad, im not sure
Alan Smithee - 24 Apr 2005 20:07 GMT
Depends what shape it's in. does the guy who's selling even know how to tell
if it's in good shape. I'd rather spend a little more and buy from someone
who knows. Plenty of "complete" darkrooms are available in most newspaper
classifieds. Why not buy local and save yourself the shipping charges. That
way you can inspect the goods first.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1

> ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if
> this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal,
> but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which
> might be good or bad, im not sure
Nick Zentena - 24 Apr 2005 20:08 GMT
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1
>
> ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if
> this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal,
> but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which
> might be good or bad, im not sure

 Who knows what the price is going to be when it closes. All those lenses
and you'd still want to upgrade them. Plus have you asked how much shipping
is going to be? Yup seems to be an older model but that wouldn't bother me
any.

   Nick
Mono - 24 Apr 2005 20:55 GMT
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=750976
> 4793&rd=1
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which
> might be good or bad, im not sure

Maybe - but I wouldn't get too excited about this package.

the enlarger may be OK - photos look OK, but you can't tell about the
bellows.  The pictures appear to be Beseler carriers, but the description
doesn't say what format they are.  If they are minox, minolta 16 and
instamatic, then they are useless unless you are prepared to do some
metal cutting.

The lenses are not exceptional - all appear to be either very vintage or
brand-x aftermarket units.  Probably would want to upgrade to an el
Nikor.

The filter set is useless - it's old and incomplete.  You would want to
replace it entirely.

The printing frame is thrown in to make the package look appealing to a
newbie - printing frames tend to be used for contact printing large
format negatives, something that is not at all consistent with the rest
of the stuff.

The only really interesting part of this package is the enlarger.  That
then raises two questions:

1.  What will be the final selling price for the package?  If the
enlarger is in good condition, it might be worth $125 tops.  

2.  Where are you, and how much would you have to pag to get the package
shipped to you?  Enlargers are bulky and heavy - the above price would be
reasonable if you don't have to pay for shipping it across the country.  
You could probably find something equivalent in your area for around the
$125 level - so paying that price AND paying for shipping doesn't make
sense.
mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 22:12 GMT
i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get
something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for
keeping me in-line. on your prodding i looked around for local
(toronto) stuff and found what looks like a pretty good package from a
toronto wedding photographer, which includes:

Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II
with lenses 50mm and 80mm (35mm and 120 film size)
1 - Nikon el-nikkor 135mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens
1 - Nikon el-nikkor 80mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens
Gralab 505 digital timer with foot pedal
2 - 11x14 paper easels
Kinderman Safe Light
Kodak Safe light filters 5.5" round
2 - glass Contact Frames
7 - 5x7 trays
10 - 8x10 trays
9 - 11x14 trays
2 - Kodak Auto Syphon
2 - 2000ml Measuring Cylinders
2 - 1000ml Measuring Cylinders
1 - 600ml Measuring Cylinders
1 - 300ml Measuring Cylinders
Film Processing Tanks...
Sliver Tanks with lids
2 - tall tanks (4-35mm or 2-120mm)
4 - medium tanks (2-35m or 1-120)
11 - 35mm reels
6 - 120mm reels

Chemicals...
Sodium Sulfite 1/2 lb (8oz)
Powder hypo clear to make 5 gal
9 - Sepia Toner (unopened)
5 - Chromium Intensifier (unopened)
7 - Farmers Reducer (unopened)
9 - sets trio Kodak B&W spotting sets

for $400 canadian

thats well within my budget. assuming everything checks out, this is
good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is
actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything
PGG - 24 Apr 2005 22:20 GMT
Go for it.  Heck, maybe even offer $300 to see if the seller will budge at
all.  

It may not be the greatest deal around, but it ain't bad at all and plus
it is local!  You avoid a $100 shipping charge right there.

Point the lenses at a strong light and look through them just to make sure
they aren't covered with haze and fungus.  You will see lots of
dust...this is normal.  If you see "spider-webs" or the entire glass
appears fogged, then use that as a tool to negotiate an even lower price
and then pick up a different lens on eBay.

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:12:42 -0700, mmmmark wrote:

> i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get
> something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is
> actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything
Mono - 24 Apr 2005 22:41 GMT
mmmmark@gmail.com wrote in news:1114377162.666341.224160
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get
> something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is
> actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything

This seems like a pretty good package, and the fact that you can inspect
it before buying it, and put it in your car to schlep it home rather than
paying for shipping, makes it even better.

I am puzzled by the description of the lenses - 50mm and 80mm, or 80mm
and 135mm?  El Nikkors are great lenses.  

Whether the chemicals are any good depends on how old they are.  I
generally don't use a lot of sodium sulfite - others do, so it may be
worth having.  The chromium intensifier is no longer available - frankly,
if you are reasonably careful about exposure and processing, you rarely
need it.  Farmer's reducer is convenient to have.  But make sure that
they are either reasonably fresh or still tightly sealed.  If the
packages have been opened, and the dry contents have formed a hard cake,
throw them out.
Rod Smith - 25 Apr 2005 01:22 GMT
> i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get
> something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II

[lots more details snipped]

> for $400 canadian

I'd say C$400 is not too bad, but maybe just a bit on the high side. (It's
currently a buyer's market for used darkroom equipment.) Part of the
problem with the package you describe is that it includes too many of
certain items for the average hobbyist (eleven 35mm reels, for instance),
which may drive up the value in the seller's mind but doesn't add much for
a typical buyer. Overall, I concur with PCG: Offer C$300 to see if the
seller will drop the price a little. Given the ability to inspect it in
person before buying, though, and not pay shipping, even C$400 is not
unreasonable. There's also something to be said for the one-stop-shopping
approach; you won't need to add much hardware to this setup.

One caveat, though: You described this as a B&W enlarger. I'm not familiar
enough with the Beseler 23C line to know all the variants, but if you
intend to do color work, you might want to look into this detail. Color
enlargers typically have three dials that enable you to set up filtration
to get the color balance right. (These can also be handy for using
variable contrast B&W paper.) Some models are sold as "color" enlargers
but they lack this; they just support filters you insert in a filter
drawer. Some very old or very limited models don't have explicit filter
support at all, which makes using them with filters of any sort even more
awkward. I suspect this model has explicit filter support, but not the
built-in dials. You should check on this detail, if nothing else just to
know what you're getting. Along those lines, one of the few things you
might want to add from another source is filters for variable contrast B&W
paper (and for color paper, if you intend to do color work). If you intend
to use graded B&W paper, though, you can skip this.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

John - 25 Apr 2005 07:58 GMT
>Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II
>with lenses 50mm and 80mm (35mm and 120 film size)
>1 - Nikon el-nikkor 135mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens

    Why would anyone include a 135mm lens with a 23C which is only capable of
enlarging a 6X9cm negative ? Also, I have the 23CII Dichro and it's only capable of using
a 105mm lens.

JD - www.puresilver.org
Rod Smith - 24 Apr 2005 22:41 GMT
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1
>
> ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if
> this is trustworthy or not.

Others have given advice on the enlarger itself. I'll focus on the eBay
side of things, since you're an eBay newbie.

The seller has a feedback score of 911, with 920 positive and 9 negative,
for 99.0% positive. This is decent but not spectacular. (eBay suffers from
*SERIOUS* "grade inflation" when it comes to feedback. I personally get a
bit wary when a seller's feedback drops below about 98%.) I wouldn't
hesitate to buy a ~$50 item from such a seller.

As others have said, the final selling price is likely to be higher than
the current (as I type) $50.51; auctions often go up dramatically in the
last few minutes, and even in the last few seconds. This auction has
already attracted 14 bids, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it go to $100
or more.

Also as others have said, consider shipping charges. Given that you
provided a .ca eBay URL, I'm guessing you're in Canada. If so, this is
particularly important on the US-based auction. You might get better
shipping rates on a Canadian auction, or you could avoid shipping entirely
on a local sale. That'd enable you to check the item out before buying,
too.

My own eBay buying strategy is to decide on a top price I'm willing to pay
ahead of time, bid that value, and don't change my bid. The way eBay is
structured, it's too easy to get sucked into an irrational bidding war, in
which two or more parties bid increasingly ludicrous values. Deciding on
your maximum ahead of time and bidding that value and no more will help
you avoid this fate. To minimize the chance of being outbid, I sometimes
"snipe" -- that is, I bid just seconds before the auction closes. This
cuts off the possibility of an irrational counter-bid, but some people get
angry at snipers because they feel it's unfair to not give them a chance
to respond. My own view is that if they just bid their maximum from the
start, as the eBay instructions say to do, it wouldn't be a problem; a
snipe would either go beyond that value and win or the snipe would fail.
As a first-time eBayer, I wouldn't recommend you snipe, just because you
need to know where the prompts are to time it right. Be aware, though,
that others may try sniping on this (or any other) auction, so DO NOT bid
less than you're willing to pay and then assume you'll have time to up
your bid if you're outbid. The way eBay works, you place your maximum bid
and the software handles the increments, so chances are you'll pay less
than the maximum you enter (assuming you win). In fact, the way the eBay
rules work, it's the second-highest bidder who sets the price; the item
sells for the second-highest bidder's price plus the increment value (or
slightly less, if the two bids are very close in value).

Also remember that there *WILL* be another enlarger like this one. In
fact, the Beseler 23C line is very common on eBay. Research the price of
similar items before you decide what this one's worth to you. Try doing a
search (say, for "Beseler 23C"). When this search completes, you'll see a
column of boxes you can check on the left. One of these is "Completed
listings." Check that box and click the "Show Items" button. This will
show you the ending prices for other Beseler 23C enlargers (and related
gear, like lenses, negative carriers, etc., that mention the Beseler 23C
in their headings). Of course, no two used items are exactly alike, so
you'll need to peruse several of these to see what similar, but not
identical, setups sold for in the past. Combine that information with your
own judgment and budget to decide what you're willing to pay. Be sure to
remember shipping, too! Some sellers inflate their shipping charges as a
hidden profit center.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 23:28 GMT
thanks a lot for your guidance, all of you. im actually surprised by
your helpfulness. this kind of stuff seems to be increasingly rare on
the internet.

thanks for the ebay advice too, that'll definitely help me out big time
in the future. the sniping thing is really interesting
 
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