Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005
is this a good deal?
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mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 19:48 GMT http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1
ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal, but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which might be good or bad, im not sure
Alan Smithee - 24 Apr 2005 20:07 GMT Depends what shape it's in. does the guy who's selling even know how to tell if it's in good shape. I'd rather spend a little more and buy from someone who knows. Plenty of "complete" darkrooms are available in most newspaper classifieds. Why not buy local and save yourself the shipping charges. That way you can inspect the goods first.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1
> ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if > this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal, > but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which > might be good or bad, im not sure Nick Zentena - 24 Apr 2005 20:08 GMT > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1 > > ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if > this is trustworthy or not. on the surface it looks like a great deal, > but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which > might be good or bad, im not sure Who knows what the price is going to be when it closes. All those lenses and you'd still want to upgrade them. Plus have you asked how much shipping is going to be? Yup seems to be an older model but that wouldn't bother me any.
Nick
Mono - 24 Apr 2005 20:55 GMT > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=750976 > 4793&rd=1 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but im suspicious. it does look like an older model, correct? which > might be good or bad, im not sure Maybe - but I wouldn't get too excited about this package.
the enlarger may be OK - photos look OK, but you can't tell about the bellows. The pictures appear to be Beseler carriers, but the description doesn't say what format they are. If they are minox, minolta 16 and instamatic, then they are useless unless you are prepared to do some metal cutting.
The lenses are not exceptional - all appear to be either very vintage or brand-x aftermarket units. Probably would want to upgrade to an el Nikor.
The filter set is useless - it's old and incomplete. You would want to replace it entirely.
The printing frame is thrown in to make the package look appealing to a newbie - printing frames tend to be used for contact printing large format negatives, something that is not at all consistent with the rest of the stuff.
The only really interesting part of this package is the enlarger. That then raises two questions:
1. What will be the final selling price for the package? If the enlarger is in good condition, it might be worth $125 tops.
2. Where are you, and how much would you have to pag to get the package shipped to you? Enlargers are bulky and heavy - the above price would be reasonable if you don't have to pay for shipping it across the country. You could probably find something equivalent in your area for around the $125 level - so paying that price AND paying for shipping doesn't make sense.
mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 22:12 GMT i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for keeping me in-line. on your prodding i looked around for local (toronto) stuff and found what looks like a pretty good package from a toronto wedding photographer, which includes:
Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II with lenses 50mm and 80mm (35mm and 120 film size) 1 - Nikon el-nikkor 135mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens 1 - Nikon el-nikkor 80mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens Gralab 505 digital timer with foot pedal 2 - 11x14 paper easels Kinderman Safe Light Kodak Safe light filters 5.5" round 2 - glass Contact Frames 7 - 5x7 trays 10 - 8x10 trays 9 - 11x14 trays 2 - Kodak Auto Syphon 2 - 2000ml Measuring Cylinders 2 - 1000ml Measuring Cylinders 1 - 600ml Measuring Cylinders 1 - 300ml Measuring Cylinders Film Processing Tanks... Sliver Tanks with lids 2 - tall tanks (4-35mm or 2-120mm) 4 - medium tanks (2-35m or 1-120) 11 - 35mm reels 6 - 120mm reels
Chemicals... Sodium Sulfite 1/2 lb (8oz) Powder hypo clear to make 5 gal 9 - Sepia Toner (unopened) 5 - Chromium Intensifier (unopened) 7 - Farmers Reducer (unopened) 9 - sets trio Kodak B&W spotting sets
for $400 canadian
thats well within my budget. assuming everything checks out, this is good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything
PGG - 24 Apr 2005 22:20 GMT Go for it. Heck, maybe even offer $300 to see if the seller will budge at all.
It may not be the greatest deal around, but it ain't bad at all and plus it is local! You avoid a $100 shipping charge right there.
Point the lenses at a strong light and look through them just to make sure they aren't covered with haze and fungus. You will see lots of dust...this is normal. If you see "spider-webs" or the entire glass appears fogged, then use that as a tool to negotiate an even lower price and then pick up a different lens on eBay.
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:12:42 -0700, mmmmark wrote:
> i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get > something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is > actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything Mono - 24 Apr 2005 22:41 GMT mmmmark@gmail.com wrote in news:1114377162.666341.224160 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get > something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > good deal right? it certainly seems it. if im wrong here and this is > actually bad deal i dont know anything about anything This seems like a pretty good package, and the fact that you can inspect it before buying it, and put it in your car to schlep it home rather than paying for shipping, makes it even better.
I am puzzled by the description of the lenses - 50mm and 80mm, or 80mm and 135mm? El Nikkors are great lenses.
Whether the chemicals are any good depends on how old they are. I generally don't use a lot of sodium sulfite - others do, so it may be worth having. The chromium intensifier is no longer available - frankly, if you are reasonably careful about exposure and processing, you rarely need it. Farmer's reducer is convenient to have. But make sure that they are either reasonably fresh or still tightly sealed. If the packages have been opened, and the dry contents have formed a hard cake, throw them out.
Rod Smith - 25 Apr 2005 01:22 GMT > i think youre all correct, it would be wiser on the whole to get > something local and something that i can physically inspect. thanks for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II [lots more details snipped]
> for $400 canadian I'd say C$400 is not too bad, but maybe just a bit on the high side. (It's currently a buyer's market for used darkroom equipment.) Part of the problem with the package you describe is that it includes too many of certain items for the average hobbyist (eleven 35mm reels, for instance), which may drive up the value in the seller's mind but doesn't add much for a typical buyer. Overall, I concur with PCG: Offer C$300 to see if the seller will drop the price a little. Given the ability to inspect it in person before buying, though, and not pay shipping, even C$400 is not unreasonable. There's also something to be said for the one-stop-shopping approach; you won't need to add much hardware to this setup.
One caveat, though: You described this as a B&W enlarger. I'm not familiar enough with the Beseler 23C line to know all the variants, but if you intend to do color work, you might want to look into this detail. Color enlargers typically have three dials that enable you to set up filtration to get the color balance right. (These can also be handy for using variable contrast B&W paper.) Some models are sold as "color" enlargers but they lack this; they just support filters you insert in a filter drawer. Some very old or very limited models don't have explicit filter support at all, which makes using them with filters of any sort even more awkward. I suspect this model has explicit filter support, but not the built-in dials. You should check on this detail, if nothing else just to know what you're getting. Along those lines, one of the few things you might want to add from another source is filters for variable contrast B&W paper (and for color paper, if you intend to do color work). If you intend to use graded B&W paper, though, you can skip this.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
John - 25 Apr 2005 07:58 GMT >Beseler 23C Black and White enlarger Series II >with lenses 50mm and 80mm (35mm and 120 film size) >1 - Nikon el-nikkor 135mm 1:5.6 enlarger lens Why would anyone include a 135mm lens with a 23C which is only capable of enlarging a 6X9cm negative ? Also, I have the 23CII Dichro and it's only capable of using a 105mm lens.
JD - www.puresilver.org
Rod Smith - 24 Apr 2005 22:41 GMT > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29985&item=7509764793&rd=1 > > ive actually never bought anything off ebay before so im not sure if > this is trustworthy or not. Others have given advice on the enlarger itself. I'll focus on the eBay side of things, since you're an eBay newbie.
The seller has a feedback score of 911, with 920 positive and 9 negative, for 99.0% positive. This is decent but not spectacular. (eBay suffers from *SERIOUS* "grade inflation" when it comes to feedback. I personally get a bit wary when a seller's feedback drops below about 98%.) I wouldn't hesitate to buy a ~$50 item from such a seller.
As others have said, the final selling price is likely to be higher than the current (as I type) $50.51; auctions often go up dramatically in the last few minutes, and even in the last few seconds. This auction has already attracted 14 bids, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it go to $100 or more.
Also as others have said, consider shipping charges. Given that you provided a .ca eBay URL, I'm guessing you're in Canada. If so, this is particularly important on the US-based auction. You might get better shipping rates on a Canadian auction, or you could avoid shipping entirely on a local sale. That'd enable you to check the item out before buying, too.
My own eBay buying strategy is to decide on a top price I'm willing to pay ahead of time, bid that value, and don't change my bid. The way eBay is structured, it's too easy to get sucked into an irrational bidding war, in which two or more parties bid increasingly ludicrous values. Deciding on your maximum ahead of time and bidding that value and no more will help you avoid this fate. To minimize the chance of being outbid, I sometimes "snipe" -- that is, I bid just seconds before the auction closes. This cuts off the possibility of an irrational counter-bid, but some people get angry at snipers because they feel it's unfair to not give them a chance to respond. My own view is that if they just bid their maximum from the start, as the eBay instructions say to do, it wouldn't be a problem; a snipe would either go beyond that value and win or the snipe would fail. As a first-time eBayer, I wouldn't recommend you snipe, just because you need to know where the prompts are to time it right. Be aware, though, that others may try sniping on this (or any other) auction, so DO NOT bid less than you're willing to pay and then assume you'll have time to up your bid if you're outbid. The way eBay works, you place your maximum bid and the software handles the increments, so chances are you'll pay less than the maximum you enter (assuming you win). In fact, the way the eBay rules work, it's the second-highest bidder who sets the price; the item sells for the second-highest bidder's price plus the increment value (or slightly less, if the two bids are very close in value).
Also remember that there *WILL* be another enlarger like this one. In fact, the Beseler 23C line is very common on eBay. Research the price of similar items before you decide what this one's worth to you. Try doing a search (say, for "Beseler 23C"). When this search completes, you'll see a column of boxes you can check on the left. One of these is "Completed listings." Check that box and click the "Show Items" button. This will show you the ending prices for other Beseler 23C enlargers (and related gear, like lenses, negative carriers, etc., that mention the Beseler 23C in their headings). Of course, no two used items are exactly alike, so you'll need to peruse several of these to see what similar, but not identical, setups sold for in the past. Combine that information with your own judgment and budget to decide what you're willing to pay. Be sure to remember shipping, too! Some sellers inflate their shipping charges as a hidden profit center.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
mmmmark@gmail.com - 24 Apr 2005 23:28 GMT thanks a lot for your guidance, all of you. im actually surprised by your helpfulness. this kind of stuff seems to be increasingly rare on the internet.
thanks for the ebay advice too, that'll definitely help me out big time in the future. the sniping thing is really interesting
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