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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2003

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Mixing Xtol and Rodinal....

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Robert M - 12 Sep 2003 15:52 GMT
Does anyone has some experiences in developing in Xtol mixed with
Rodinal?

I work with Agfa, Efke and Tmax films, also Delta, FP+ and HP5+ from
Ilford.

In fact I'm looking for some development times to start with.

TIA
Signature

Robert M
roberto@zagreb.cc
http://free-zg.hinet.hr/robert_m

Richard Knoppow - 12 Sep 2003 16:18 GMT
> Does anyone has some experiences in developing in Xtol mixed with
> Rodinal?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TIA

 Xtol and Rodinal are very different developers which will
not work well together. Xtol is a low alkalinity developer
using a type of Phenidone and Ascorbic acid. Rodinal is a
high alkalinity developer with p-aminophenol as the sole
developing agent and potassium hydroxide as the alkali.
 If mixed probably the hydroxide will cause the Phenidone
to become extremely active and cause fogging. There would be
absolutely no advantage to doing this.
 Between the two Xtol is the superior developer delivering
greater film speed and much finer grain. Rodinal's main
advantage is convenience. It delivers low fog clean
negatives but is one of the grainiest developrs on the
market. Its used for small format mainly where someone wants
the large acutance effect Rodinal will give when highly
diluted. Its suitable for very fine grain films where its
tendency to exagerate grain is minimized.
 I would stick to Xtol, it works very well for most films.
Its reputation for unreliability is exagerated. The problem
was mainly from packaging problems with the one liter size
which has been discontinued.
 I am not condemning Rodinal, its a good developer for many
purposes, but is not a good choice for faster small format
films.
Signature


---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mark A - 12 Sep 2003 16:49 GMT
> > Does anyone has some experiences in developing in Xtol
> mixed with
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> purposes, but is not a good choice for faster small format
> films.

There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results. Check out
www.photo.net and search the forums.
Michael Scarpitti - 12 Sep 2003 22:32 GMT
> There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results. Check out
> www.photo.net and search the forums.

Idiots will try almost anything......and it sometimes works!

But I would recommend against this procedure, unless the two
developers are used in succession, with a rinse in between!
Randy Stewart - 13 Sep 2003 04:09 GMT
> >   Xtol and Rodinal are very different developers which will
> > not work well together. Xtol is a low alkalinity developer
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results. Check out
> www.photo.net and search the forums.

Having taken up that advise and having searched, I'll report two comments in
the first 40 or so hits.  The first person offered a print as evidence of
results which could best be described as reflecting the worst of both
worlds.  The 2nd person says she's started doing her Tri-X in Rodinal to get
grain reduction. One wonders what she was previously using - perhaps laundry
detergent.

Just goes to show that you have to consider your source here in the wacky
world of the internet.  In this case, I'll go with Richard.
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Sep 2003 14:09 GMT
> There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results.
> Check out www.photo.net and search the forums.

What is the nature of the great results? Is the grain sharper? The
resolution greater? The curve shape straighter (or warped in some way or
another that matters to some photographer).

It is one thing for a bathtub chemist to concoct something that develops
film, and another thing to come up with a developer with different
properties from all the others going around. There are so many ways by
which identical results may be obtained; why not use the simplest that
gives you the results you need?

If I make lousy boring images, there is no way any conceivable developer
will turn them into great art (unless I use the fixer first, perhaps).

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Mark A - 13 Sep 2003 15:08 GMT
>  > There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results.
>  > Check out www.photo.net and search the forums.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> If I make lousy boring images, there is no way any conceivable developer
> will turn them into great art (unless I use the fixer first, perhaps).

They claim very good sharpness with less grain than Rodinal alone. I am not
vouching for these people or their results, just passing along information.
I didn't start this thread. Despite what someone else said, some of these
people are experienced and knowledgeable photographers.

Instead of posting theoretical complaints on this group, if one is truly
interested, they should read all the information on this subject or try it
themselves (one formula was already posted, but there may be others).

Personally, I am not much interested, but I don't go around slamming others
without trying it first.
Richard Knoppow - 13 Sep 2003 23:25 GMT
> >  > There are people who have mixed the two and claimed great results.
> >  > Check out www.photo.net and search the forums.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Personally, I am not much interested, but I don't go around slamming others
> without trying it first.

 I can beleive that there is less graininess since the Xtol
will have lowered the pH of the solution and probably
increased the salt content. However, what advantage does it
have over Xtol?
 Rodinal has four ingredients, para-aminophenol, a
developing agent related to Metol, potassium sulfite,
potassium hydroxide, and some potassium bromide. Potassium
salts are used because of their greater solubility,
important for a highly concentrated solution.
 para-aminophenol can be used in lower pH developers. At
one time it was recommended for those suffering from Metol
sensitivity, but it turns out that P-aminophenol is also a
sensitizer.
 In general it is considered inferior to Metol as a
developing agent but is soluble in very great quantity,
again necessary for the highly concentrated Rodinal.
 p-aminophenol is somewhat superadditive with Hydroquinone
but not the extent of Metol, it is not a good substitute for
Metol in M-H formulas. I don't know if it is superadditive
with Ascorbic acid but if so its probably inferior to either
Metol or Phenidone. Mixing the two just doesn't make sense
based on what is in them.
 Practice doesn't usually contradict theory unless the
theory is very wrong. I don't think it is here.
 Of course, results are the final proof but I strongly
suspect that the claims made here are not really based on
any sort of careful comparison.
Signature


---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mark A - 14 Sep 2003 00:01 GMT
"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:yPM8b.2424>

>   I can beleive that there is less graininess since the Xtol
> will have lowered the pH of the solution and probably
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> any sort of careful comparison.
> Richard Knoppow

Just to clarify, no one made any claims in this thread. Someone asked about
mixing the two (see the original post in this thread), and I tried to steer
the person to other forums and sites where this has been discussed.

Someone then asked what was the claimed benefit, and I replied as best I
could remember what was said elsewhere (typical Rodinal sharpness and much
less visible grain than typical Rodinal).

I have not tried mixing Rodinal and XTOL myself (and therefore cannot
recommend it someone else) but I do know that some of the people who tried
it are not complete idiots (as another post seemed to imply when they read 2
of the 40 messages on the subject on www.photo.net).
Mike Marty - 12 Sep 2003 16:32 GMT
Anyone know where I can purchase Rodinal online?  B&H says they can't ship it.

> Does anyone has some experiences in developing in Xtol mixed with
> Rodinal?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TIA
Mark A - 12 Sep 2003 16:48 GMT
> Anyone know where I can purchase Rodinal online?  B&H says they can't ship it.

http://www.calumetphoto.com
glennbooth@earthlink.net - 12 Sep 2003 18:56 GMT
Adorama will ship it too. Freestyle will ship it ground with no hazmat
charge.

> Anyone know where I can purchase Rodinal online?  B&H says they can't
> ship it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> TIA
Jorge Omar - 12 Sep 2003 23:11 GMT
There is the original (pre-WW2) Rodinal formula, R09 at

http://www.jandcphotography.com/

Jorge

> Anyone know where I can purchase Rodinal online?  B&H says they can't ship it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > TIA
John - 18 Sep 2003 04:29 GMT
>There is the original (pre-WW2) Rodinal formula, R09 at
>
>http://www.jandcphotography.com/

    Is that similar to the one I have ?

Regards

  John S. Douglas, Photographer
    http://www.darkroompro.com
Jorge Omar - 18 Sep 2003 13:36 GMT
Quite possibly, nobody is really sure of ready made branded formulas...

Jorge

> >There is the original (pre-WW2) Rodinal formula, R09 at
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>    John S. Douglas, Photographer
>      http://www.darkroompro.com
David Foy - 30 Sep 2003 01:51 GMT
Bill Troop, if I remember correctly, believes Rodinal has changed several
times over the last century. I believe his information came from an Agfa
chemist. If the Calbe/ORWO R09 is truly the pre-WWII formula, they probably
differer, but insignificantly.
DF
> Quite possibly, nobody is really sure of ready made branded formulas...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >    John S. Douglas, Photographer
> >      http://www.darkroompro.com
Mark A - 30 Sep 2003 02:12 GMT
> Bill Troop, if I remember correctly, believes Rodinal has changed several
> times over the last century. I believe his information came from an Agfa
> chemist. If the Calbe/ORWO R09 is truly the pre-WWII formula, they probably
> differer, but insignificantly.
> DF
According to "The Film Developing Cookbook," by Anchell and Troop, the
changes to Rodinal are probably not photographically significant.
Richard Knoppow - 13 Sep 2003 23:25 GMT
> Anyone know where I can purchase Rodinal online?  B&H says they can't ship it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > TIA
 B&H has had some sort of ongoing problem shipping even
slightly hazardous stuff. Try one of the other large mail
order places like Calumet or Freestyle. I don't know why
Rodinal should be any more hazardous than common liquid
drain cleaners, which are much more alkaline.
Mark A - 13 Sep 2003 23:52 GMT
>   B&H has had some sort of ongoing problem shipping even
> slightly hazardous stuff. Try one of the other large mail
> order places like Calumet or Freestyle. I don't know why
> Rodinal should be any more hazardous than common liquid
> drain cleaners, which are much more alkaline.

I think it stems from the labeling reporting requirements for such
shipments, especially air freight. The B&H shipping system probably does not
handle the hazmat labeling and reporting, and these chemicals represent a
miniscule percent of sales, so they just say--screw it, were not shipping
this stuff.
Richard Knoppow - 14 Sep 2003 09:44 GMT
> >   B&H has had some sort of ongoing problem shipping even
> > slightly hazardous stuff. Try one of the other large mail
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> miniscule percent of sales, so they just say--screw it, were not shipping
> this stuff.

 You may be right. When B&H began to have this problem
someone described in some detail what had happened. I don't
now even remember if it was in a Usenet group or a mailing
list and don't remember the details.
 The regulations on hazardous substance shipping tend to be
rather draconian. As I mentioned drain cleaner does not have
to be shipped as a hazardous substance although it is
considerably more hazardous than Rodinal. The shipping
charges for hazardous materials are very high. The last time
I got lens separating solvent from Summers Optical the
shipping charges were as much as the product.
Signature


---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Dennis O'Connor - 12 Sep 2003 20:18 GMT
Hmmmmmm
Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium hydroxide), a basic
substance meaning it's pH is > 7.0

And, if I understand correctly Xtol is based on Vitamin C, (Ascorbate), an
organic acid meaning it's pH is < 7.0

As I recollect, the result of mixing an acid with a base is a salt and it's
water... Doesn't sound promising at first blush...
Some of you chemistry fans may want to correct any errors I may be making
here...

BTW, I souped a roll of FP4+ in Rodinal 1:50 (the bottle is at least 5 years
old) yesterday, and I have a strip of sharp looking negs that look like they
will print nicely at 2.5 grade on MGIV RC...
Denny

> Does anyone has some experiences in developing in Xtol mixed with
> Rodinal?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TIA
Mark A - 12 Sep 2003 20:30 GMT
> Hmmmmmm
> Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium hydroxide), a basic
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> will print nicely at 2.5 grade on MGIV RC...
> Denny
Yes, it does sound unlikely, but people have done it and they claim it
works. I cannot vouch for this myself, but here is one person's formula. A
google search might yield other information:

"Mixing Rodinal and Xtol by Sam Elkind

I read with interest the Nov 28th exchange on the BW Film Developing forum
about Vit C developers and the Rodinal variation.  On that forum, I have on
occasion mentioned a blend I use that gives excellent results with (at
least) Tri-X, Delta 100, Delta 400, and Verichrome, in both 135 and 120
formats. I think people have an initial reaction that the idea sounds
preposterous.

The blend uses both Xtol and Rodinal.  The origin for me was that Xtol
results were too flat, while Rodinal results were too grainy (no surprise).
A couple of years ago, I was searching for an ideal developer and after some
tests I settled on this blend. Following is the result of my testing
(quantities set to my 500 mL tank):

Xtol = 100 mL
water = 400 mL
Rodinal = 4 to 5 mL

Times @ 24 degrees C. are:
Tri-X (200) = 9 minutes.
Delta 100 = 10.5 minutes.
Verichrome = 8.5 minutes.

This blend may be useful to you and perhaps others.  I think you will find
the grain is quite acceptable, even in 35mm negs, and that tonality is
attractive, especially in highlights.  In the context of the exchange on the
BW forum, in which you made reference to Gainer's Rodinal variation, I
thought you might find this combo of interest."
Jorge Omar - 13 Sep 2003 03:18 GMT
Not always an acid and a base will react making a salt. Fairly common
mixes in developers are borax and boric acid; metabissulfite and
carbonate.
There will just be an equilibrium point. These non reacting mixes are
named buffers and highly regarded.
Xtol has ascorbic acid and borax.

Now, I wonder if just adding some alkali (carbonate? metaborate?) to
Xtol wouldn't be very much the same as adding a bit of Rodinal?
(I do not have any Rodinal to do a test).

Jorge

> Hmmmmmm
> Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium hydroxide), a basic
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> >
> > TIA
Richard Knoppow - 13 Sep 2003 23:25 GMT
> Hmmmmmm
> Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium hydroxide), a basic
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> will print nicely at 2.5 grade on MGIV RC...
> Denny

 That isn't quite how it works. Many developing agents
(reducing agents to be correct) are acid. Part of the alkali
in the developer is needed to neutralize them and some to
ionize them to make them active. In some cases the
developing agent _is_ coverted into a salt, which is the
active developer.
 Sodium Ascorbate is not the principle reducer in Xtol,
rather a form of Phenidone called Dimezone. Dimezone more
stable in solution than Phenidone. The ascorbate is also a
developing agent, with properties similar to Hydroquinone.
That is, it tends to develop high contrast images by itself
and is supperadditive to Phenidone and to Metol. It is this
last quality which is the important one in Xtol.
Phenidone-Ascorbic acid developers have properties similar
to Metol-Hydroquinone ones. The advantage of P-A is that
both reducers are less toxic and have less environmental
impact when discarded. Phenidone developers also tend to
yield greater film speed than Metol in similar types of
developers.
 Xtol is a relatively low pH (around 8.2 by memory)
developer with reasonably high salt content to reduce
emulsion swelling. Swelling is not so much a problem with
modern films as with older ones because the emulsions are
much harder to begin with but it is still good practice to
avoid high pH where finest grain is desired. The grain can
be incresed by swelling because it allows individual
developing silver crystals to be attracted to each other
forming clumps in the emulsion. The individual silver
grains, even of quite coarse emulsions, are sub-microscopic.
What we see as grain is the "clumping" of these particals
either as the result of combination of particals at differnt
places in the thickness of the emulsion, or as the result of
physical clumping. There are other factors too but these are
the main ones. To be low grain developers are generally made
low activity and close to neutral pH. Grain is not
exclusively a result of any one thing but of a combination
of factors including the way the silver grains are formed
during development. Nonetheless, certain rules apply if one
wants to minimise it.
 Unfortunately, I don't know a good, not-too-advanced text,
currently in print on photoraphic chemistry.
Patrick Gainer - 14 Sep 2003 00:23 GMT
> > Hmmmmmm
> > Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>   Unfortunately, I don't know a good, not-too-advanced text,
> currently in print on photoraphic chemistry.

There may be a little controversy over which is the principal developer
in XTOL. The ascorbate is used up in the development process, while the
phenidone derivative is not. You could say that the phenidone is like a
catalyst for the ascorbate. It isn't very important to us, I guess.

Phenidone and its derivatives are very superadditive with ascorbates,
according to Kodak. I don't remember the title of the research paper,
and have lost my copy.

I haven't tried mixing Rodinal and XTOL. It's too expensive. I have
added sodium ascorbate to Rodinal with good results most of the time.
The results are better if I tame down the pH by adding a little borax.
As with any developer, overexposure will increase grain, as will
overdevelopment. My results seem to indicate that paraminophenol and
sodium ascorbate are superadditive, since adding 4 grams per liter to
Rodinal 1+50 decreases development time to that of Rodinal 1+25. Grain
was at least as fine as adding 100 grams of sulfite per liter, and
sharpness and resolution were better.

I never could see the object of combining XTOL and Rodinal, even if it
does produce marvelous results. I have seen too many marvelous results
produced by much simpler developers.

In any case, I'm not going to call anyone an idiot for trying.
David Foy - 30 Sep 2003 00:48 GMT
Richard Knoppow wrote: "The grain can be incresed by swelling because it
allows individual developing silver crystals to be attracted to each other
forming clumps in the emulsion. The individual silver grains, even of quite
coarse emulsions, are sub-microscopic. What we see as grain is the
"clumping" of these particals
either as the result of combination of particals at differnt places in the
thickness of the emulsion, or as the result of physical clumping. "

I must differ. The weight of expert opinion seems to be that "clumping" is
entirely an optical effect due to viewing grains at varying levels in the
emulsion which appear superimposed. The grains do not move, nor are they
attracted to anything. They only enlarge by something resembling the
extrusion of masses of filamentary silver.

I wish I could cite an appropriate reference for you, Richard, but I can't
because I'm at work at the moment, away from my bookshelf. I will say that I
do not remember any authority who has written on the subject who has not
made the point, and some have illustrated it. Mees et al, and John & Field
for instance, and L.F.A. Mason too, unless my memory is terribly letting me
down. I'm not sure how swelling influences the appearance of graininess but
I suspect that alkalinity high enough to swell the gelatin is high enough to
produce large silver masses. (Perhaps I'd better go home and hit the books.)

David Foy

> > Hmmmmmm
> > Lesssee, as I remember Rodinal contains lye (sodium
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>   Unfortunately, I don't know a good, not-too-advanced text,
> currently in print on photoraphic chemistry.
 
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