delta400@1600 and rodinal: what happened?

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Gianni Rondinini - 31 Mar 2005 15:40 GMT

good morning.

first of all, please excuse my poor english: i hope you'll understand
what happened to me and will be able to help me.

few days ago i developed 2 rolls of delta400 120, one of which having
been exposed at 400 and one at 1600.

the one rated at the nominal 400 asa was developed in rodinal 1+25, 20
degrees, continuous agitation for the first minute and then 5 seconds
every 30, for the time suggested on the massive dev chart i found on
the net. it was fixed with 4 minutes using an ornano fixer and then
treated for a couple of minutes with agepon. the negative seems very
good to me and i'm happy of the overall quality.

then i washed *very well* the tank and prepare for the second
development.

the one pushed 2 stops --at 1600 asa, then-- was developed in rodinal
1+16, 21 degrees, continuous agitation for the first minute and then 5
seconds every 30, for 20 minutes. i guessed these 20 minutes by myself
reasoning on some development times i got for other developers on the
dev chart. i am *sure* the temperature was perfectly constant --both
in time and "in space"-- because i filled my sink with water and
immersed the tank after every agitation --up to the cap of the tank,
without risking that water could enter in the tank (you know, paterson
tanks...)--.
and unfortunately no, i didn't have any tmax or xtol at that moment
--i know rodinal isn't that great for pushed films--: i received both
of them 2 days later.
i fixed the development with 8 minutes in ornano fixer and then left
in agepon for some more minutes.
the film shows a reasonable detail and good overall contrast --then i
guess development time wasn't bad--, but it's not uniform: along all
the film i see it's lightly lighter in the center part --around 50+%
of the film-- and it's darker in the extreme part --around 25-% of the
film, along each border--. neither the colour is uniform: the lighter
part tends to be yellowish and the darker is a little bit violet.

can you please tell me if you have an idea of what happened and where
the problem may be? i recycled fixer and agepon as i --and many
friends of mine-- usually do --it's a matter of pollution more than
money--.

i wouldn't want to miss something important when i'll develop the
delta3200 @12500 we've talked about --with tmax or xtol, this time--.

thank you in advance

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Gianni Rondinini
Icem s.r.l. - http://www.icem.it
Tel: +39 0545 78036
Fax: +39 0545 78727

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Richard Knoppow - 31 Mar 2005 17:40 GMT

> good morning.
>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> thank you in advance

The color suggests that the film was not completely
fixed. I don't know what kind of fixer Ornano is. If its
"rapid" fixer, at film strength, 8 minutes should be long
enough unless the fixer is exhausted. Try re-fixing the film
in _fresh_ fixer and see if the color is removed. Then
re-wash it.
The non-uniformity may be from the remaining halide and
may be cured by re-fixing. It may be that both the
non-uniform development and the lack of fixing on parts of
the film were caused by something interfering with the flow
of the solutions in the tank. The fact that one roll was
perfect and the next not suggests that perhaps the second
roll was not loaded into the tank correctly, its pretty hard
to tell now if that is what happened.
Usually, a two stop push requires about double the
"normal" development time. Two stops is just about the limit
for films not designed for pushing. Either of the Kodak
T-Max developers, Xtol, or Microphen, are good developers
for push processing but Rodinal should have worked OK.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

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Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 19:28 GMT

> [Delta 400] pushed 2 stops --at 1600 asa, then-- was developed in rodinal
> 1+16, 21 degrees, continuous agitation for the first minute and then 5
> seconds every 30, for 20 minutes ... i fixed the development with 8 minutes
> in ornano fixer and then left in agepon for some more minutes.

> all the film i see it's lightly lighter in the center part --around 50+%
> of the film-- and it's darker in the extreme part --around 25-% of the
> film, along each border--. neither the colour is uniform: the lighter
> part tends to be yellowish and the darker is a little bit violet.

I will bet 10 Lire the film was not agitated (or agitated very
little) in the fix. As part of the film is fixed I would say the fix
was fresh enough and the time long enough for proper fixing. Give
the tank a shake every minute while fixing and the problem should
go away. The yellow may be a side effect from a too long fixing time
in a fixer with too much silver in it - but that is just an ignorant
guess.

Refix with agitation, rinse, agitate again in the "agepon" (I am assuming
this is a fixer removal agent). Wash in flowing 23C water for 10 minutes.

The yellow may stay forever, though. It may be dichoric fog -- Richard
Knoppow is the local expert on dichoricism -- and may be able to
shed some light.

"You'll wonder where the yellow went when you fix your film with Hypodent."

Might toothpaste remove dichoric fog?

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

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Stefano Bramato - 31 Mar 2005 20:32 GMT

Mr Lindan wrote:

> Might toothpaste remove dichoric fog?

YO!
A new special recipe to suggest for curing dichroic fog?
wooow!

Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

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Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 05:00 GMT

> Mr Lindan wrote:
>> Might toothpaste remove dichoric fog?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> ed io imparo...

I've never tried toothpaste for dichroic fog but its a
mild abrasive which works wonders for polishing plastic
parts and metals where you don't want to remove too much
material. Abrasive reducers were quite common for
photography in the past. Kodak put up an abrasive reducer
and it was common to use stove polish (if you are old enough
to remember coal or wood stoves you know what this is). I
would try bleaching with rapid fixer to which some citric
acid has been added before using toothpaste for removing
dichroic fog, but it might work and certainly could be used
to reduce very dense areas for retouching. Not quite as
silly as it sounds.
OTOH, I think the problem originally described in this
thread is probably not dichroic fog but unfixed halide and
perhaps also some anti-halation or sensitizing dye left
behind due to the fixer not having uniform contact with the
film.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

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Stefano Bramato - 01 Apr 2005 13:06 GMT

> I've never tried toothpaste for dichroic fog but its a
> mild abrasive which works wonders for polishing plastic
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> behind due to the fixer not having uniform contact with the
> film.

THanks for help me in growing in photography Mr. Knoppow.
WOW!!

Ciao,
Stefano Bramato

--
ed io imparo...

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Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 04:53 GMT

>> [Delta 400] pushed 2 stops --at 1600 asa, then-- was
>> developed in rodinal
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Might toothpaste remove dichoric fog?

Nicholas, I think you may be right about the lack of
agitation in the fixer although the poster gives his
agitation for development it not certain that he did the
same for the fixer. Fixer needs agitation as much as
developer.
Dichroic fog is a thin coating of silver deposited on
the film surface. It is yellow by transmitted light and
greenish by reflected light. It can also give a rainbow or
oil slick look. Dichroic fog is mostly from very exhausted
fixing baths, especially if a lot of developer has carried
over into them. I've seen it on very outdated film but don't
know the cause there. It can be removed by bleaching it in
rapid acid fixer with added Citric acid. About 15
grams/liter of citric should be added to film strength rapid
fixer. Its slow enough to be controllable but will bleach
some of the image silver if left for too long.
Agepon is a wetting agent similar to Photo-Flo.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

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Gianni Rondinini - 04 Apr 2005 15:43 GMT

hi all.

i wasn't able to reply to you before now; please excuse me, but i had
some problems of usenet access --my news server moved to a pay-per-use
policy and paying is taking some days--.

some more details:
1. nicholas won 10 lire :), because no, i didn't make any agitation
during fix; i didn't realize it is necessary and i didn't remember my
friends did it; about final rinsing --after fixing and before wetting
agent--, water is so expensive in my area that i begun to use the
recommended ilford rinse procedure: 1 rinse with half a liter; 1 rinse
with half a liter after 5 agitations; 1 rinse with half a liter after
10 agitations; 1 rinse with half a liter after 20 agitations: fast and
not very water consuming.
2. yes, ornano universal fixer is a rapid one, but i'm not impressed
by it. i'll get back to the agfa rapid fixer next time

i'm very proud to tell you that re-fixing with some fresh fixer solved
the yellowish "stripe" in the middle of the negative. then:
1. it's clear that rodinal worked fine even with a 2-stop pushed film
--i posted the data to digitaltruth guys--; i guess at this point that
all of that was born by a bad fixing.
2. the film seems now to be a little bit clearer everywhere: is it
possible or is it just an impression?
3. i see that xtol and tmax seem to be better for high speed films:
are there "big" differences also between fixers? i'm talking about
agfa rapid one and tmax fixer, for example

one last thing: richard, i deleted your last email: can you please
re-send it to me?

bye and thank you very much.

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Gianni Rondinini
Icem s.r.l. - http://www.icem.it
Tel: +39 0545 78036
Fax: +39 0545 78727

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