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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005

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Is color printing easy?

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narke - 31 Mar 2005 09:13 GMT
I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
also.  so, if color printing is not so hard than B&W, i may like to buy
a enlarger which can also do color, if the answer is not, i will save
money and buy a dedicated B&W enlarger.

any suggestion is welcome.

-
narke
Philip Homburg - 31 Mar 2005 11:53 GMT
>I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
>very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
>also.  so, if color printing is not so hard than B&W, i may like to buy
>a enlarger which can also do color, if the answer is not, i will save
>money and buy a dedicated B&W enlarger.

Color printing is relatively easy. The hard part is getting the color
balance right, which requires experience in recognizing how color
casts correspond to corrections in filter settings.

If the goal is to get good color prints, then digital (scanning plus
printing on a frontier) provides far more creative control.

If the goal is to have some fun in the darkroom, then color printing is
not ideal either because the actual exposure has to be in the dark and
the rest of the process is drum based.

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could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
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Nick Zentena - 31 Mar 2005 12:00 GMT
> I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
> very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
> also.  so, if color printing is not so hard than B&W, i may like to buy
> a enlarger which can also do color, if the answer is not, i will save
> money and buy a dedicated B&W enlarger.

 Colour IMHO is easier then B&W. Hand a B&W negative to ten good printers
and they'll give you ten good but different prints. OTOH hand a colour
negative and the results will likely be a lot more similar. If you're buying
used and in today's market you should then colour enlargers aren't any more
money then straight B&W models. Some times they sell for less because people
think they don't want a colour model.

     Nick
Steven Kefford - 31 Mar 2005 14:12 GMT
...
>   Colour IMHO is easier then B&W. Hand a B&W negative to ten good printers
> and they'll give you ten good but different prints. OTOH hand a colour
> negative and the results will likely be a lot more similar. If you're buying
...
That does not mean it is easier at all. What it does mean is that with
b&w, printing plays a larger part of the artistic process.

Steve
Nick Zentena - 31 Mar 2005 14:36 GMT
> ...
>>   Colour IMHO is easier then B&W. Hand a B&W negative to ten good printers
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That does not mean it is easier at all. What it does mean is that with
> b&w, printing plays a larger part of the artistic process.

Which is harder then the purely mechanical process that colour printing is.

Nick
John Walton - 31 Mar 2005 14:56 GMT
> > I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
> > very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>       Nick

Color printing is much easier than BW -- in color the processes go to
completion.  Getting the color balance is not that difficult -- generally
for one batch of negative film the balance is going to be the same.
Difficult negatives can always be worked over in Photoshop.

I purchased a used Durst Printo about 12 years ago -- it makes the job a
snap.

Quite frankly, however, BW printing is more satisfying.

J
Art Reitsch - 31 Mar 2005 15:22 GMT
A consideration:  if by color enlarger you mean one that has the three
color filters, then that is what you need for creative black and white
enlarging.  You especially need the magenta filter and sometimes the
yellow too for use with multi-grade papers.  Yes, you can buy the
plastic filters to use if the color filters are not built in, but then
you are putting a piece of plastic between the enlarger lens and the
paper whereas with the built-in filter you are putting the color above
the negative.  I use the magenta filter on almost every b/w image I make
to raise the contrast level.
Art

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>  
PGG - 31 Mar 2005 15:29 GMT
It is quite easy with the Tetenal Mono RA-4 chemicals.  These work at room
temperature and do not require precise control.  

I find color balance not difficult at all by just using a set of Kodak
Color Printing Filters

However I also find B&W printing much more rewarding because there is more
control involved.

> I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
> very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> -
> narke
laura halliday - 31 Mar 2005 17:57 GMT
> I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.
> I am not very sure whether I should buy a enlarger which can
> do color printing also. so, if color printing is not so hard
> than B&W, i may like to buy a enlarger which can also do color,
> if the answer is not, i will save money and buy a dedicated
> B&W enlarger.

An enlarger with a dichroic head is useful and
convenient for variable contrast black and white
printing.

I find colour negative prints to be a bit finicky,
but if you can print black and white, you can print
colour too. The main issue is the very high speed
of colour paper - I use Fuji Crystal Archive, the same
stuff the minilabs use. I bought both my enlargers
used, and bought a Jobo CPE-2 processor on EBay.

Colour transparency prints (Ilfochrome) are obscenely
expensive but easy to get right. They are very nearly
idiot-proof.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH     "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg                    pied a terre..."
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Wayne - 01 Apr 2005 00:36 GMT
> Colour transparency prints (Ilfochrome) are obscenely
> expensive but easy to get right. They are very nearly
> idiot-proof.

I must be one helluvan idiot then, because I have a few Ilfos that i
cant get right no matter what i do.
narke - 01 Apr 2005 02:04 GMT
For color printer, some people mentioned dichroic head, some people
mentioned color filters.  I can understand color filters, and deduced
from your articles, I believe that color filters in a color printer can
yield better result than filters for a b&w printer.  but, for the
dichroic head, i have no any ideal, what is it?  

-
narke
Gregory Blank - 01 Apr 2005 02:22 GMT
>   but, for the
> dichroic head, i have no any ideal, what is it?  
>
> -
> narke

They are lamphouses within a mechanical
filter set that you adjust the amount of
filtration in the light by turning a knob.

Makes life a lot more simple and eliminates
the dust and scratches that could be present on
plastic filters.

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Wayne - 01 Apr 2005 05:13 GMT
> For color printer, some people mentioned dichroic head, some people
> mentioned color filters.  I can understand color filters, and deduced
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> -
> narke

The dichroic head has built in, integral filters. The plastic ones that
someone referred to are small sheets that are placd by hand into a
drawer in the enlarger. Want 10 Y filtration? Throw in the 10 Y filter.
Want 5 Y? take it back out and put in the 5. On a dichro you just spin
a dial. And you can use it for B&W variable contrast printing too.

Having color printed for years on a B&W enlarger using plastic color
printing filters, I can say that I MUCH prefer my dichroic head. But
use whatever you can afford. It isnt that hard to use the plastic ones
if thats all you can get.
narke - 02 Apr 2005 04:56 GMT
> Having color printed for years on a B&W enlarger using plastic color
printing filters, I can say that I MUCH prefer my dichroic head. But
use whatever you can afford. It isnt that hard to use the plastic ones
if thats all you can get.

Did you mean a B&W enlarger can do color printing if insert some color
filters into the drawer?

-
narke
Wayne - 02 Apr 2005 06:07 GMT
> > Having color printed for years on a B&W enlarger using plastic color
> printing filters, I can say that I MUCH prefer my dichroic head. But
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Did you mean a B&W enlarger can do color printing if insert some color
> filters into the drawer?

Yes, exactly.
Bernie - 02 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT
Narke, I saw some explanations about the dichroic head having built-in
fiulters, but that explanation doesn't go far enough. Regular color filters
are dyed sheets of acetate or gelatin placed in a drawer above the negative
(acetate) or in a holder under the lens (gelatin) to adjust the color in
your print.

A dichroic filter is a special glass filter coated with a metallized
material which reflects certain colors and passes the opposite color. These
dichroic filters are adjusted by a cam driven mechanism which moves more or
less of the filter into the light path close to the lamp. This is done
before the diffusion section of your enlarger. The dichroic filters do not
fade with reasonable use like the dyed filters will.

You can use a combination of the magenta (for higher) and yellow (for lower)
filters with variable contrast B&W papers, giving you infinite control, to a
better degree than the typical 1/2 grade choice you obtain with specialized
contrast filters made for those papers.

For the slight additional cost, I would recommend getting this dichroic
"color head" which will allow you to try color printing any time you are
ready. These enlargers also usually come with a voltage regulating power
sourcce, providing more stable exposures for your basic B&W work, an added
benefit.

> For color printer, some people mentioned dichroic head, some people
> mentioned color filters.  I can understand color filters, and deduced
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> -
> narke
narke - 07 Apr 2005 15:57 GMT
Bernie,

after read your message, i decided to buy a color head enlarger!
thanks for your advice, specially  for the use of ' infinite ' when
talking about the control capability!

-
narke
Wayne - 02 Apr 2005 00:27 GMT
> Colour transparency prints (Ilfochrome) are obscenely
> expensive but easy to get right. They are very nearly
> idiot-proof.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean
it is easy to get satisfactory results with Ilfochrome. I would agree
with that, and wouldnt want to discourage anyone from trying because it
isnt a difficult process. But it does take time to master it-or so I've
heard, because I havent done so despite having done quite a bit.
Francis A. Miniter - 02 Apr 2005 04:25 GMT
>>Colour transparency prints (Ilfochrome) are obscenely
>>expensive but easy to get right. They are very nearly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> isnt a difficult process. But it does take time to master it-or so I've
> heard, because I havent done so despite having done quite a bit.

I have not done it in some time because the contrast was so difficult to
control.  I used the paper then available for the P30 process and it proved to
contrasty to deal with the intense negatives I was trying to print.  I was doing
five minute exposures with 3 minutes of dodging to try to get both shadows and
highlights.  I understand that some lower contrast papers were introduced a few
years ago.

On a sidelight, I left the P30 chemistry in brown plastic chemical containers.
After a couple years I noticed that the white paint on the shelf next to the
bottles had gone yellow.  Powerful stuff!!!

Last comment.  Homebrewing is probably not possible.  In order to save costs I
looked into it.  It is not the developer that is the problem.  The developer is
a B&W developer.  It is the bleach.  I found a (partial?) list of ingredients
either on the internet or in Photo Techniques magazine.  But locating vendors of
the chemicals was nearly impossible.  And some of them were obscenely expensive
on their own.

Francis A. Miniter
Wayne - 02 Apr 2005 06:17 GMT
> I have not done it in some time because the contrast was so difficult to
> control.  I used the paper then available for the P30 process and it proved to
> contrasty to deal with the intense negatives I was trying to print.  I was doing
> five minute exposures with 3 minutes of dodging to try to get both shadows and
> highlights.  I understand that some lower contrast papers were introduced a few
> years ago.

Since I havent done any now in several years, I've forgotten most of
what I used to know. They did introduce a low contrast paper, but it
wasnt very satisfactory IIRC. I dont recall why right offhand, but it
wasnt as good for some reason.

The contrast is brutal, especially for someone like me who is looking
for subtlety but doesnt want to work from orange film.

> On a sidelight, I left the P30 chemistry in brown plastic chemical containers.
> After a couple years I noticed that the white paint on the shelf next to the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the chemicals was nearly impossible.  And some of them were obscenely expensive
> on their own.

I looked into that too. I usually mixed my own developer anyway, and I
used my own fixer a couple times, but you have to buy that dang bleach.
You can use the P3 bleach which is cheaper, but its also much more
problematic. Again I forget the gory details, but it was so impractical
that I never used it. I'm sure the reasons are all there in the digital
archives, which are much better than the ones in my brain.
Ken Hart - 01 Apr 2005 06:37 GMT
> I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
> very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> any suggestion is welcome.

Color printing is not difficult, especially if you have some sort of
automated processor. A drum type processor is probably cheaper and easier to
maintain, a roller transport type is probably easier to use and faster (my
opinion, YMMV)

In B&W, you make a test print to determine exposure. You make a judgement on
contrast (and perhaps another test print), then you make your final print.

In color (negative) printing, you make the same test print to determine
exposure. Then, using a _correctly_exposed_ test print, you make a judgement
on color balance, preferably with a set of viewing filters. You adjust the
filtration and make a test print to determine the new exposure.
There are two keys to color printing: (1) Always make your color balance
judgement with a correct density (darkness/lightness) print. Do not attempt
to color balance a print that is too dark or too light. (2) Write stuff
down! On each test print I make, I write (Sharpie brand marker) what
exposure(s) and filtration I used for that print. I also write the
exposure/filtration I plan to go to; IE: "Y60 M40 f/8 0:15--> Y65 M50 f/8
0:20" If I screw up the filter pack or exposure, I can go back thru test
print(s) until I find the best one and start over from there.

Ken Hart
Stewy - 01 Apr 2005 16:40 GMT
> I'm currently considering buy a enlarger mainly for B&W work.  I am not
> very sure  whether I should buy a enlarger which can do color printing
> also.  so, if color printing is not so hard than B&W, i may like to buy
> a enlarger which can also do color, if the answer is not, i will save
> money and buy a dedicated B&W enlarger.

IMHO I'd suggest working with B&W only at first and leave color for
another day. With B&W, it's relatively inexpensive and quick a test
print and the full print can be had in just 5 minutes or so. Also you
can use safelights when working with B&W papers. All color is done in
darkness and unless you know your way around your darkroom well, the
possibility of making expensive mistakes is increased.

Buying a color enlarger seems to make sense at the beginning - My first
(and only) enlarger was a Durst 35mm with a color head. I found I was
able to use the color filters with most multigrade papers. However I
never did use it for color as my darkroom was in a loft which was
difficult to cool in summer and very cold in winter.

So, go for B&W now and if you do went to dabble with color, a cheaper
alternative would be to scan slides and negs and produce digital prints
via a photo quality printer - I do realize this cannot be classified as
darkroom use, but digital manipulation is probably much easier than
color in the darkroom. This is not to say go the digital road -
transparencies provide the best way of displaying photos to many people,
rather color work in the darkroom is expensive in equipment and
chemistry as well as time.

I experimented a lot with lith film, all types of panchromatic film and
B&W papers and enjoyed many hours in my darkroom.
 
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