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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005

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A forgotten formula

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Terry Davis - 30 Mar 2005 03:29 GMT
I once read about a technique where you could  draw on a b/w print with
india ink and then immerse the paper in a solution of iodine and water.
The iodine will cause the photographic image to disappear leaving only
the lines drawn with the india ink.  The result is a sort of pen and ink
drawing of your photograph.

Does anyone know this formula?  I need the ratio of iodine to water

Terry  
Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 Mar 2005 16:16 GMT
> I once read about a technique where you could  draw on a b/w print with
> india ink and then immerse the paper in a solution of iodine and water.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Does anyone know this formula?  I need the ratio of iodine to water

Iodine isn't used for this anymore [much].  Iodine alone won't
permanently remove the image and it will come back in time.

You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a mixture of
Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) and
Sod. Thiosulfate (photographic fixer).

A good camera store should have some packets of farmer's ~$3-$4.  The
alternative, and costing not much more than a few packets,
is to buy a jar of ferricyanide and a jug/box of fixer.  A teaspoon
of ferricyanide in a pint of fixer will permanently remove the
photographic image in a few minutes.  100g of ferricyanide (~$7)
and 16 oz of "rapid fixer" concentrate ~$4-$5 will make up 5
quarts of farmer's.  The jar of ferricyanide is enough for
~50-100 quarts, but it can be kept for years and years, you
will only have to buy new fixer.

If you can't find the stuff locally then try B&H photographic
in NY.  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home and
search for " farmer's ".

Farmer's only lasts 1/2 hour after it is mixed up, a problem
when buying the packets - but you don't have to mix up an
entire packet at one time: mix up part A and part B and
combine the two only when you are ready to use it.

You don't need to make up much - just enough to cover the photo.

India ink my have trouble sticking to modern photographic paper:
run a few tests first with ink on a photograph.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Scott Coutts - 31 Mar 2005 03:16 GMT
> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a mixture of
> Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name)

Unless you accidentally mix it with something acidic in your darkroom...
then you get cyanide gas (:

Scott.
Peter Irwin - 31 Mar 2005 03:59 GMT
>> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a mixture of
>> Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name)
>
> Unless you accidentally mix it with something acidic in your darkroom...
> then you get cyanide gas (:

This has been discussed before. It takes quite a bit to
decompose Potassium Ferricyanide. Note that it does not
decompose to form cyanide in the body which means that
you need something stronger than stomach acid.

Treat all darkroom chemicals with respect. It is good to
read the MSDSs for the various chemicals you use, but it
can help to remember that they tend to be written in a way
which makes any chemical sound scary.

Peter.
Signature

pirwin@ktb.net

Scott Coutts - 31 Mar 2005 05:53 GMT
>>>You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a mixture of
>>>Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> can help to remember that they tend to be written in a way
> which makes any chemical sound scary.

Yeah, I agree with all of that... but it's good to know. Sometimes
people dont realise the effects that these can have, though, because
they're "just photography solutions... they cant do any harm". Tip it in
the sink with brick cleaner from the hardware shop, for example, and
it'll be quite different!

The MSDS is a good idea, but I agree that they can sound bad. The MSDS
for water is available at some sites, as is the one for salt etc...
you'd never touch anything again if you took them too seriously (not
that I advocate taking them lightly, but a little knowledge and some
common sense never goes astray!)

Scott.
Lloyd Erlick - 31 Mar 2005 15:20 GMT
>> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a mixture of
>> Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Scott.

mar3105 from Lloyd Erlick,

How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide
gas from potassium ferricyanide?

My understanding is that only very strong acid, like
concentrated sulfuric or nitric, will cause this
reaction.

There isn't much call for strong acids in a regular
darkroom, so it's easy to keep them out.

regards,
--le
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________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 19:32 GMT
> How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide
> gas from potassium ferricyanide?
>
> My understanding is that only very strong acid, like
> concentrated sulfuric or nitric, will cause this
> reaction.

I have no idea, but a jug of glacial acetic acid is
pretty common.

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Jean-David Beyer - 31 Mar 2005 21:14 GMT
>>How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide
>>gas from potassium ferricyanide?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have no idea, but a jug of glacial acetic acid is
> pretty common.

I am not even sure acids will decompose that stuff. High temperatures
can do it, but those temperatures are much higher than boiling water.

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Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 05:11 GMT
>> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer".  It is a
>> mixture of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Scott.

  It must be a very strong acid, like Sulfuric acid, or
heat in excess of 400F to release hydrogen cyanide from
Ferricynide. Its quite benign as it is normally used in the
darkroom. The cyanide ions are very tightly bound to the
molecule and not easily released.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 31 Mar 2005 01:48 GMT
> I once read about a technique where you could  draw on a
> b/w print with
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Terry

  Actually any reducer can be used. Iodine has the
advantage that the reduced area will not develop a yellow
stain over time. This happens sometimes when a Ferrocyanide
bleach is used.

 One form of Iodine reducer is"

Water                1.0 liter
Potassium Iodide    60.0 grams
Iodine crystals     20.0 grams

Make sure the Potassium iodide is completely dissolved
before adding the Iodine.
 This will leave a red stain. Clear it by treating in a 2%
solution of sodium bisulfite.
 Then fix in a _rapid_ fixer and wash.

 A ferricyanide bleach can be used. I would suggest one
using some posassium bromide such as the bleach for indirect
Sepia toner. The fix in any fixing bath to remove the
resulting silver bromide. A suitable bleach is:

Kodak T-10 Bleach

Potassium Ferricyanide            30.0 grams
Posassium Bromide                 15.0 grams
Water to make                      1.0 liter

 Treat the print in this until the image turns cream
colored all over. Then rinse for a few minutes and fix in a
normal fixing bath for 2 to 4 minutes. Then treat in a wash
aid and wash as usual.
 See if your library has a book called _Photographic
Amusments_. The original was by E.J. Wall and his name was
carried over on the numerous later editions. The book has
all sorts of tricks like this in it.
  Another method of turning a photo into a hand drawing
requires no processing at all but is tedious. Put a sheet of
drawing paper under the enlarger and project the desired
negative onto it. Use a large stop to get a bright image.
You must work in the dark. Using drawing pencils fill in the
bright areas of the projected image until it is uniformly
dark all over. When you look at this in the light you will
find you have drawn a positive image in pencil. With
practice you can learn to make either detailed or soft
drawings, and of course, you can retouch as desired in the
drawing process.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 03:15 GMT
> Iodine has the advantage that the reduced area
> will not develop a yellow stain over time.

Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain [or better
yet, what won't cause the yellow stain]?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Richard Knoppow - 31 Mar 2005 06:19 GMT
>> Iodine has the advantage that the reduced area
>> will not develop a yellow stain over time.
>
> Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain [or better
> yet, what won't cause the yellow stain]?

  Probably residual silver complex from the bleach. For
normal Farmer's reducer, where the hypo and bleach are
combined the hypo isn't sufficient to remove all the silver
complex. Materials reduced in Farmer's should be refixed and
washed. I am not certain why the Iodide reducer doesn't
cause a stain, perhaps it does if treated with hypo. The
original reducer used Potassium cyanide as the fixing agent.
Cyanide is the most effective fixer there is but is extemely
toxic and can also dissolve some image silver. Another
version of Iodine reducer uses Thiocarbamide as the fixing
agent. This is also very effective but I think also needs a
final fixing step.
  Sepia toned images are not subject to the yellowing
because the sulfide redeveloper has already converted all
remaining silver complexes to silver sulfide.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 14:59 GMT
> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > [Farmer's Reducer may] develop a yellow stain over time.
> >
> > Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain?

> Probably residual silver complex from the bleach. For
> normal Farmer's reducer, where the hypo and bleach are
> combined the hypo isn't sufficient to remove all the silver
> complex. Materials reduced in Farmer's should be refixed and
> washed.

Ah, relief - do that already.

I don't really use Farmer's: I dip the photo into a ferri-only
solution for 5 seconds or so and then into fixer, let the
fixer work and then examine the image.  Repeat as necessary.
For prints I make a lot of, or that just need a homeopathic
highlight cleansing, I have established times in the ferri.

I gave up observing the bleaching while it was happening
using a ferri-fix (Farmer's) bath, I found it to
be nerve wracking, unrepeatable and prone to run-away --
really, really clear midtones...

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 05:11 GMT
>> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> be nerve wracking, unrepeatable and prone to run-away --
> really, really clear midtones...

   Farmer's works slightly differently when the hypo is
used separately. When mixed the solution tends to reduce
overall density without affecting contrast as for
overexposed negatives When used as two separate baths
Farmer's tends to reduce contrast, as for overdeveloped
negatives. When used on prints the usual purpose is to clear
veiled highlights. If the entire print is to be reduced the
first variety is probably best. For use locally to remove
spots or retouch, the second variety is probably best since
it has more effect on dense areas. In either case the print
should be re-fixed after the reduction is complete and
washed thoroughly. I am pretty sure that proper refixing and
rewashing will prevent future discoloration from from either
halide or hypo remaining in the emulsion.
  A very good source on treatment and toning of prints is
_The Photographer's Master Printing Course_ by Tim Rudman. I
am pretty sure this is still in print, an Amazon search
should find it. I strongly recommend this book for anyone
who wants to go beyond elementary printing (or even just
making better elementary prints).

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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