Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2005
A forgotten formula
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Terry Davis - 30 Mar 2005 03:29 GMT I once read about a technique where you could draw on a b/w print with india ink and then immerse the paper in a solution of iodine and water. The iodine will cause the photographic image to disappear leaving only the lines drawn with the india ink. The result is a sort of pen and ink drawing of your photograph.
Does anyone know this formula? I need the ratio of iodine to water
Terry
Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 Mar 2005 16:16 GMT > I once read about a technique where you could draw on a b/w print with > india ink and then immerse the paper in a solution of iodine and water. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Does anyone know this formula? I need the ratio of iodine to water Iodine isn't used for this anymore [much]. Iodine alone won't permanently remove the image and it will come back in time.
You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a mixture of Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) and Sod. Thiosulfate (photographic fixer).
A good camera store should have some packets of farmer's ~$3-$4. The alternative, and costing not much more than a few packets, is to buy a jar of ferricyanide and a jug/box of fixer. A teaspoon of ferricyanide in a pint of fixer will permanently remove the photographic image in a few minutes. 100g of ferricyanide (~$7) and 16 oz of "rapid fixer" concentrate ~$4-$5 will make up 5 quarts of farmer's. The jar of ferricyanide is enough for ~50-100 quarts, but it can be kept for years and years, you will only have to buy new fixer.
If you can't find the stuff locally then try B&H photographic in NY. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home and search for " farmer's ".
Farmer's only lasts 1/2 hour after it is mixed up, a problem when buying the packets - but you don't have to mix up an entire packet at one time: mix up part A and part B and combine the two only when you are ready to use it.
You don't need to make up much - just enough to cover the photo.
India ink my have trouble sticking to modern photographic paper: run a few tests first with ink on a photograph.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Scott Coutts - 31 Mar 2005 03:16 GMT > You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a mixture of > Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) Unless you accidentally mix it with something acidic in your darkroom... then you get cyanide gas (:
Scott.
Peter Irwin - 31 Mar 2005 03:59 GMT >> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a mixture of >> Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) > > Unless you accidentally mix it with something acidic in your darkroom... > then you get cyanide gas (: This has been discussed before. It takes quite a bit to decompose Potassium Ferricyanide. Note that it does not decompose to form cyanide in the body which means that you need something stronger than stomach acid.
Treat all darkroom chemicals with respect. It is good to read the MSDSs for the various chemicals you use, but it can help to remember that they tend to be written in a way which makes any chemical sound scary.
Peter.
 Signature pirwin@ktb.net
Scott Coutts - 31 Mar 2005 05:53 GMT >>>You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a mixture of >>>Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > can help to remember that they tend to be written in a way > which makes any chemical sound scary. Yeah, I agree with all of that... but it's good to know. Sometimes people dont realise the effects that these can have, though, because they're "just photography solutions... they cant do any harm". Tip it in the sink with brick cleaner from the hardware shop, for example, and it'll be quite different!
The MSDS is a good idea, but I agree that they can sound bad. The MSDS for water is available at some sites, as is the one for salt etc... you'd never touch anything again if you took them too seriously (not that I advocate taking them lightly, but a little knowledge and some common sense never goes astray!)
Scott.
Lloyd Erlick - 31 Mar 2005 15:20 GMT >> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a mixture of >> Pot. Ferricyanide (pretty-much non-toxic, despite the name) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Scott. mar3105 from Lloyd Erlick,
How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide gas from potassium ferricyanide?
My understanding is that only very strong acid, like concentrated sulfuric or nitric, will cause this reaction.
There isn't much call for strong acids in a regular darkroom, so it's easy to keep them out.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 19:32 GMT > How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide > gas from potassium ferricyanide? > > My understanding is that only very strong acid, like > concentrated sulfuric or nitric, will cause this > reaction. I have no idea, but a jug of glacial acetic acid is pretty common.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Jean-David Beyer - 31 Mar 2005 21:14 GMT >>How strong would the acid have to be to evolve cyanide >>gas from potassium ferricyanide? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have no idea, but a jug of glacial acetic acid is > pretty common. I am not even sure acids will decompose that stuff. High temperatures can do it, but those temperatures are much higher than boiling water.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 15:10:00 up 6 days, 5:27, 3 users, load average: 4.25, 4.17, 4.20
Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 05:11 GMT >> You want something called "Farmer's Reducer". It is a >> mixture of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Scott. It must be a very strong acid, like Sulfuric acid, or heat in excess of 400F to release hydrogen cyanide from Ferricynide. Its quite benign as it is normally used in the darkroom. The cyanide ions are very tightly bound to the molecule and not easily released.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow - 31 Mar 2005 01:48 GMT > I once read about a technique where you could draw on a > b/w print with [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Terry Actually any reducer can be used. Iodine has the advantage that the reduced area will not develop a yellow stain over time. This happens sometimes when a Ferrocyanide bleach is used.
One form of Iodine reducer is"
Water 1.0 liter Potassium Iodide 60.0 grams Iodine crystals 20.0 grams
Make sure the Potassium iodide is completely dissolved before adding the Iodine. This will leave a red stain. Clear it by treating in a 2% solution of sodium bisulfite. Then fix in a _rapid_ fixer and wash.
A ferricyanide bleach can be used. I would suggest one using some posassium bromide such as the bleach for indirect Sepia toner. The fix in any fixing bath to remove the resulting silver bromide. A suitable bleach is:
Kodak T-10 Bleach
Potassium Ferricyanide 30.0 grams Posassium Bromide 15.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter
Treat the print in this until the image turns cream colored all over. Then rinse for a few minutes and fix in a normal fixing bath for 2 to 4 minutes. Then treat in a wash aid and wash as usual. See if your library has a book called _Photographic Amusments_. The original was by E.J. Wall and his name was carried over on the numerous later editions. The book has all sorts of tricks like this in it. Another method of turning a photo into a hand drawing requires no processing at all but is tedious. Put a sheet of drawing paper under the enlarger and project the desired negative onto it. Use a large stop to get a bright image. You must work in the dark. Using drawing pencils fill in the bright areas of the projected image until it is uniformly dark all over. When you look at this in the light you will find you have drawn a positive image in pencil. With practice you can learn to make either detailed or soft drawings, and of course, you can retouch as desired in the drawing process.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 03:15 GMT > Iodine has the advantage that the reduced area > will not develop a yellow stain over time. Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain [or better yet, what won't cause the yellow stain]?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Richard Knoppow - 31 Mar 2005 06:19 GMT >> Iodine has the advantage that the reduced area >> will not develop a yellow stain over time. > > Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain [or better > yet, what won't cause the yellow stain]? Probably residual silver complex from the bleach. For normal Farmer's reducer, where the hypo and bleach are combined the hypo isn't sufficient to remove all the silver complex. Materials reduced in Farmer's should be refixed and washed. I am not certain why the Iodide reducer doesn't cause a stain, perhaps it does if treated with hypo. The original reducer used Potassium cyanide as the fixing agent. Cyanide is the most effective fixer there is but is extemely toxic and can also dissolve some image silver. Another version of Iodine reducer uses Thiocarbamide as the fixing agent. This is also very effective but I think also needs a final fixing step. Sepia toned images are not subject to the yellowing because the sulfide redeveloper has already converted all remaining silver complexes to silver sulfide.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Mar 2005 14:59 GMT > "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message > > > > > [Farmer's Reducer may] develop a yellow stain over time. > > > > Interesting ... what causes the yellow stain?
> Probably residual silver complex from the bleach. For > normal Farmer's reducer, where the hypo and bleach are > combined the hypo isn't sufficient to remove all the silver > complex. Materials reduced in Farmer's should be refixed and > washed. Ah, relief - do that already.
I don't really use Farmer's: I dip the photo into a ferri-only solution for 5 seconds or so and then into fixer, let the fixer work and then examine the image. Repeat as necessary. For prints I make a lot of, or that just need a homeopathic highlight cleansing, I have established times in the ferri.
I gave up observing the bleaching while it was happening using a ferri-fix (Farmer's) bath, I found it to be nerve wracking, unrepeatable and prone to run-away -- really, really clear midtones...
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Richard Knoppow - 01 Apr 2005 05:11 GMT >> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > be nerve wracking, unrepeatable and prone to run-away -- > really, really clear midtones... Farmer's works slightly differently when the hypo is used separately. When mixed the solution tends to reduce overall density without affecting contrast as for overexposed negatives When used as two separate baths Farmer's tends to reduce contrast, as for overdeveloped negatives. When used on prints the usual purpose is to clear veiled highlights. If the entire print is to be reduced the first variety is probably best. For use locally to remove spots or retouch, the second variety is probably best since it has more effect on dense areas. In either case the print should be re-fixed after the reduction is complete and washed thoroughly. I am pretty sure that proper refixing and rewashing will prevent future discoloration from from either halide or hypo remaining in the emulsion. A very good source on treatment and toning of prints is _The Photographer's Master Printing Course_ by Tim Rudman. I am pretty sure this is still in print, an Amazon search should find it. I strongly recommend this book for anyone who wants to go beyond elementary printing (or even just making better elementary prints).
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
|
|
|