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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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How "clear" should the unexposed parts be?

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tbrown - 25 Mar 2005 07:29 GMT
Hello,
I am processing Ilford FP4 and HP5 4x5 sheet film. I've processed 10
negatives, and accidentally processed 2 unexposed sheets of the HP5
(400 ASA). I was surprised to find that the film is not perfectly
clear. I'm not sure if what I am seeing is airport (Heathrow) X-ray fog
or poorly fixed film. Under the microscope, it looks like grain. Using
room lights and an old GE light meter, I read 11 foot-candles without
the film, 9 with. There is no variation in density across the whole
negative. This density is similar to that of the borders of the exposed
sheets.

I developed in full-strength D-76 at 68 degrees for 8 minutes, stop for
1 minute, fixed for 10, used hypo clearing agent, then washed in the
tank for about 5 water changes. I used Kodak's powdered fixer. All the
chemicals were freshly mixed and within 2 degrees fahrenheit of the
developer.

The Kodak is a hardening fixer, while Ilford implies that there is no
reason, and possibly some detriment to using a hardening fixer. Is this
the result? Should I refix the film? The fixer was cloudy when I mixed
it, and I used it before it fully cleared. My friend shot some of the
same film, from the same box and has taken it to a lab for processing,
but it is not yet done.

Thanks,

Scott
Lew - 25 Mar 2005 07:42 GMT
"Clear" is relative. The amount of background fog will vary according to a
number of factors. The important thing is that the fog is uniform. When you
print these negatives, a good starting point for print exposure will be when
the "clear" areas print as the maximum black your paper will allow.
-Lew
UC - 26 Mar 2005 01:20 GMT
> "Clear" is relative. The amount of background fog will vary according to a
> number of factors. The important thing is that the fog is uniform. When you
> print these negatives, a good starting point for print exposure will be when
> the "clear" areas print as the maximum black your paper will allow.
> -Lew

This is false. The blackest black the paper will allow is not necessary
to achieve a good black using a negative. This is another stupid myth.
Tom Phillips - 25 Mar 2005 08:06 GMT
> Hello,
> ...I was surprised to find that the film is not perfectly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> negative. This density is similar to that of the borders of the exposed
> sheets.

As Lew resonded, developed film exhibits a base fog
(called film base plus fog and notated as fb+f.) It
varies with the film, developer, and format.

If you have a densitometer to measure film density, fb+f
can be anywhere from .03 (almost non existent) to .20/.40
(about 1 stop) for some 35mm films. "Clear" is always
your film base plus whatever chemical fog there is. You
simply print through it.
Scott Coutts - 26 Mar 2005 00:59 GMT
>>Hello,
>>...I was surprised to find that the film is not perfectly
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> your film base plus whatever chemical fog there is. You
> simply print through it.

Can underdevelopment increase the 'fog'?

Scott.
Tom Phillips - 26 Mar 2005 05:19 GMT
> >>Hello,
> >>...I was surprised to find that the film is not perfectly
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Can underdevelopment increase the 'fog'?

You will always obtain some fog regardless of
development time, but the longer you develop
the greater the fb+f.
Richard Knoppow - 26 Mar 2005 02:46 GMT
> Hello,
> I am processing Ilford FP4 and HP5 4x5 sheet film. I've
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Scott

  I'm not sure how reliable the exposure meter is as a
densitometer. Assuming it is the density works out to Log
1.0, which is quite high for fog level. Fog density for
ISO-100 film typically is rather low. I just measured the
clear borders of some FP-4 4x5 negatives, the fog plus base
density is around Log 0.1, about a tenth of what you
indicate.
  Airport X-ray usually leaves a herringbone pattern on the
film rather than a uniform fog. This sounds more like fog
induced by high temperatures or some impurity in the
developer. I've used old FP-4 and HP-5 in roll film which
showed no unusual fog after being outdated by more than ten
years so I don't think its age fog.
  Normal film borders look almost entirely clear. My old
negatives have a very slight pink tinge, Kodak T-Max looks
completely clear. This FP-4 was developed in D-76 1:1 and
stopped and fixed about as you indicate above except it was
treated in Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent before washing.
  Its possible the film is light struck but that also tends
to leave some sort of pattern.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Michael Gudzinowicz - 26 Mar 2005 17:44 GMT
> Hello,
> I am processing Ilford FP4 and HP5 4x5 sheet film. I've processed 10
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> negative. This density is similar to that of the borders of the exposed
> sheets.

I don't think you have a problem. The transmittance (T) of the negative
is 9/11  (transmitted / incident power or intensity) or 0.8181
The optical density or absorbance is - log10 (T) where log10 is the
log to the base 10. The value for the optical density (O.D.) of film
base and fog is 0.087, which is typical of the film.

Some fog is expected with development since developers are not perfectly
selective, and emulsion silver halides can show a bit of reduction to
silver during manufacture and storage.

> I developed in full-strength D-76 at 68 degrees for 8 minutes, stop for
> 1 minute, fixed for 10, used hypo clearing agent, then washed in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> same film, from the same box and has taken it to a lab for processing,
> but it is not yet done.

If you are concerned about the fixer, simply refix a section of the
unexposed processed film, treat with hypoclear, wash and dry. Then
compare it to the old section. If you want to determine the contribution
of silver to the fog, fix and unexposed undeveloped sheet.
Alternatively, you can bleach your processed negative with ferricyanide,
fix and wash.

You should NEVER use a cloudy solution or one with precipitates. It is
easier to mix the solutions a day in advance to permit dissolution of
the chemicals, and filter the developer.

In addition to incomplete dissolution, fixers may become cloudy as the
sulfite anion becomes oxidized. The sulfite reacts with elemental sulfur
 to form thiosulfate (hypo) in solution. If the sulfite isn't in
excess, the fixer may sulfurize leading to a precipitate. The sulfur and
sulfides will react with silver halide to "tone" or fog negatives.

If the fixer isn't completely clear, add a tablespoon or so of bisulfite
(or sulfite) to it, and see if it eventually clears. If not, toss it.
Old or defective packaging may have permitted sulfite oxidation.

Also, if you reuse fixer (a good idea), I'd suggest that you use two
bath fixing for archival processing - 10 minutes each for Kodak Fixer.
The details, theory and capacities are archived. Search for my name,
and archival processing in Google groups.
Richard Knoppow - 27 Mar 2005 01:40 GMT
>> Hello,
>> I am processing Ilford FP4 and HP5 4x5 sheet film. I've
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
> for my name,
> and archival processing in Google groups.

  First of all its good to see you posting again.
  I blundered in calculating the log density in my post,
your figure is the correct one and is certainly right for
the film.
  I think two 10 minute baths for Kodak fixer may be a
little long, did you mean this?  Normally, I fix film for a
total of 10 minutes, five minutes in each bath but keep
track of the clearing time. However, sodium thiosulfate
fixer is inefficient in fixing high iodide emulsions so
perhaps it does take 20 minutes.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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