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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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On negative's enlargement

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Dada - 13 Mar 2005 23:01 GMT
I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to
know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to
enlarge a 35mm negative in a 10x15 cm paper, how can I convert this
time to calculate the right one for a 30x40 cm size. I had read, a few
mounths ago, something about a mathemitc rule for it, but I can't
remember it. I wish someone could help me.
Thanks.
Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 04:37 GMT
> I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to
> know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> remember it. I wish someone could help me.
> Thanks.

Enlargement magnified to divided by enlargement magnified
from obtains the factor you multiple the exposure by to
get the new enlargement exposure.

(1+M)^2
------- = exposure factor
(1+m)^2

M or m is the magnification ratio. The magnification ratio
is the size of the projected image divided by the size of
the negative along one dimension (along same side.) If
you're going from 15cm enlargement to a 40cm enlargement
using a 35mm negative m is 4.3 and M is 11.43. Thus

(1+11.43)^2     154.5
-----------  =  -----   = 5.5 exposure factor
(1+4.2)^2        28

Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for
the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel.
Mike King - 14 Mar 2005 07:26 GMT
Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made on a piece of paper
from the same batch.  Anyone got a paper stretcher for sale?

The easiest way to get M and m is to measure one side of the projected image
on the easel baseboard.  You don't need to calculate magnification factors
since it is only the magnification ratio that matters in the math, direct
measurement will do that since the calculations that derive the
magnification factor out.

The formula will get you close, but so will an Ilford EM-10, with no
headscratching.

I also have a handy little slide rule, made by Gra-Lab once upon a time,
that will factor in paper speed, magnification and filter factors for both
PC filters and CP color printing filters.

I passed, but could have bought two EM-10's at a Camera Show and Sale this
weekend for $15.00 each.  I bought 10 easels for $5.00 (the lot, not each,
including a 4-blade Omega) and four, 32 oz stainless steel tanks with lids
for another $5.00--and not the cheap junk--there was a Kindermann and two
Nikkors in the lot.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> > I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for
> the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel.
Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 11:16 GMT
> Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made on a piece of paper
> from the same batch.  Anyone got a paper stretcher for sale?

It works as well as any method regardless of batch
and I've been using it very successfully for 25 years...

As  someone once said, math is the language of
the universe. Must have been right.

> The easiest way to get M and m is to measure one side of the projected image
> on the easel baseboard.  You don't need to calculate magnification factors

You're NOT calculating a magnification factor, but
an exposure factor. M is the magnification _ratio_.
If you notice I said it's derives from negative -->
projection along one dimension.

> since it is only the magnification ratio that matters in the math, direct
> measurement will do that since the calculations that derive the
> magnification factor out.
>
> The formula will get you close, but so will an Ilford EM-10, with no
> headscratching.

Convenience gadgets = $$  Your brain is free :)
And people wonder why the rest of the world is
outstripping American kids in math and science.

>  I also have a handy little slide rule, made by Gra-Lab once upon a time,
> that will factor in paper speed, magnification and filter factors for both
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> > Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for
> > the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel.
Richard Knoppow - 14 Mar 2005 23:09 GMT
> Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made
> on a piece of paper
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Kindermann and two
> Nikkors in the lot.

  Kodak has a rotary slide rule included in their booklet
_Kodak Black and White Darkroom Dataguide_ for calculating
exposure vs: magnification.
  However, I also use an EM-10 since it also compensates
for variations in the light source. The formula Tom posted
is exact for diffusion enlargers but may not be for
condenser enlargers.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

PSsquare - 14 Mar 2005 15:59 GMT
Dada,

You can forget all of this magnification talk based upon the size of the
print and just work from the height of the enlarger head.  If your enlarger
head for the smaller print was at 30 cm and for the larger size print has
raised the head to 45 cm, then take the ratio of the two and square it. So,
the ratio of 45/30 is 1.5 and the square of 1.5 is 2.25.  So the new
exposure is 2.25 times longer than the exposure for the smaller print.

All of this is based simply upon the fact the fixed energy output of the
lamp projected from the lens is a circle.  While the total light out is
fixed, you dilute the energy so the energy per unit area decreases.  The
area of the circle it is spread over will increase as the square of the
diameter of the circle.  Pretty simple.

PSsquare

> I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to
> know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> remember it. I wish someone could help me.
> Thanks.
Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 20:37 GMT
> Dada,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> area of the circle it is spread over will increase as the square of the
> diameter of the circle.  Pretty simple.

Pretty wrong.

> PSsquare
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > remember it. I wish someone could help me.
> > Thanks.
Richard Knoppow - 14 Mar 2005 23:35 GMT
>I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would
>like to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> remember it. I wish someone could help me.
> Thanks.

 For enlargers with a diffusion source the formula is:

E2 = (M2 + 1)^2 / (M1 +1)2

Where:

E1 and M1 are the known exposure and magnification
E2 and M2 are the second exposure and magnification

 The reason this is not directly applicable to condenser
enlargers is that the amount of light available at the
source may vary with focal extension.

  The distance between the _lens_ and the easil at any
magnification is approximately (M+1)/f where f is the focal
length of the lens.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mike King - 15 Mar 2005 20:29 GMT
So then, in essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel
with a enlarging meter you can possibly get more accurate results than if
you use the mathematical formula for some light sources?
Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> >I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> magnification is approximately (M+1)/f where f is the focal
> length of the lens.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Mar 2005 22:18 GMT
> So then, in essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel
> with a enlarging meter you can possibly get more accurate results than if
> you use the mathematical formula for some light sources?

In essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel
with a enlarging meter you are certain to get more accurate results than if
you use the mathematical formula for any light source

OTOH, I don't know of any really accurate enlarging meters.  The Ilford,
Analyte, Beseler etc. will get you close, but not dead-nuts.

If you want to take the time it is possible to make a table of enlarger
elevation Vs exposure time correction by making test prints at a series
of head elevations.  The chart will only be accurate for that enlarger/
head/lens.  The results will also vary slightly between thin and thick emulsion
films.

Along with exposure, contrast varies with magnification and this also varies
differently with thin and thick films.  And stray light changes ...

Enlarging exposure is not a pretty thing to get control of.
Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Gregory Blank - 15 Mar 2005 22:46 GMT
> OTOH, I don't know of any really accurate enlarging meters.  The Ilford,
> Analyte, Beseler etc. will get you close, but not dead-nuts.

The most accurate I know is the one I have, the Colorstar 3000.
After I worked out the calibration it gets me the one print
final for non critical work across multiple paper types and
VC filtrations.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

photo_brewer - 23 Mar 2005 17:54 GMT
all of these comments are very interesting , however trying to follow
them is giving me a headache. It seems to me the tried and true method
of printing a test strip will achieve the desire results, and just
maybe, a little quicker and more precisely.
PhotoBrewer
aka: Larry B.
Tom Phillips - 23 Mar 2005 20:04 GMT
> all of these comments are very interesting , however trying to follow
> them is giving me a headache. It seems to me the tried and true method
> of printing a test strip will achieve the desire results, and just
> maybe, a little quicker and more precisely.
> PhotoBrewer
> aka: Larry B.

No, it won't, since in photographic exposure 1+1
in a test strip will not equal an equivalent single
exposure of the same length. Sorry, it's not my
fault, it has to do with quantum physics ;) (called
the Intermittency effect.)

Nor will simply adjusting for the enlarger head height
difference (as some suggested) provide a "precise"
exposure, since when you change the distance between
the easel and the head you are actually changing two
distances -- the lens to easel distance and negative
to lens distance.

So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using
the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)
creosote - 23 Mar 2005 22:58 GMT
Nor will simply adjusting for the enlarger head height
difference (as some suggested) provide a "precise"
exposure, since when you change the distance between
the easel and the head you are actually changing two
distances -- the lens to easel distance and negative
to lens distance.

-- This method may not give a "precise" exposure time difference, as
you say (note use of the term "approximate"), but it is usually close
enough for most applications.  I find that when I move up to a bigger
enlargement (say, from 5x7 to 8x10, the results may be very similar or
require both an adjustment in exposure AND color balance, but since
very few photographers on this forum print their own color shots, they
may not be aware of this).

So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using
the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)
Inaccessible - 23 Mar 2005 23:53 GMT
In article <4241BE20.8D11A7D7@aol.com>,
Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com> wrote:

> So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using
> the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)

> So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using
> the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)

So Who is exactly saying this?
beatyerbrainsout - 25 Mar 2005 11:29 GMT
> So Who is exactly saying this?

Jesus, what a pest.  People like you ought to be shot.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 23 Mar 2005 23:38 GMT
> It seems to me the tried and true method of printing
> a test strip will achieve the desire results,

 A test strip is a good way to the ballpark. If your
exposure is not there on the first try a second may be needed.
Once there, make one to a few 5x7s on a grade 2 RC paper. Stick
to that one paper and save the usefull prints.
 You'll need to relate results from those 5x7s to the paper
used when makeing your for-show prints.
 When changing size for same negative, Ilford's EM-10
enlarging exposure meter, around $29, will keep your
exposure bull's eyed.                                       Dan
Das - 17 Mar 2005 03:10 GMT
I have an Microsoft excel file to help with Darkroom calculations. I
use this when I need to make enlargements. I make a sample test print,
make color corrections and exposure corrections till I feel that the
pirnt is perfect and then I put in the details in the excel file on my
Handheld.
I usually put in the width of the exposure - say 8.25" and the exposure
that I felt was perfect - say 1.8 secs and then in the rows below all I
have to do is to put in the new size that I would want to print - say
30" ( That is the width parameter of the image- I can print either a
30"x40" or a 30"x10" or a small test print -whatever the exposure will
remain the same)
And I get the new exposure for the enlargement. - Of course, I always
take a small sample print of some portion of this enlarged image to
verify if the calculated exposure is correct-

The excel file also has tables for calculating values for either
overexposing or underexposing.

How this table works. ? Calculates the area and the light dissipated
for the new area....

Have tried out and it works for me.

BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post
the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your
needs . The file is in XLS format

Regards
Das
Inaccessible - 17 Mar 2005 13:54 GMT
> BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post
> the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your
> needs . The file is in XLS format

No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is
against the charter.
Rod Smith - 17 Mar 2005 16:08 GMT
>> BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post
>> the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your
>> needs . The file is in XLS format
>
> No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is
> against the charter.

To offer an alternative, if you want to make a file available to readers
of the group, put it up on your own Web space and then post the URL, as
in:

http://www.example.com/foo.xls

You don't even need to create a full Web page, just put the file there and
post the link. The same procedure works for any file type. Readers who are
interested can then click or cut-and-paste the URL to download the file,
and those who aren't interested won't waste a lot of bandwidth downloading
it because they clicked on a message without realizing it had a file
attached.

Signature

Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Inaccessible - 17 Mar 2005 16:43 GMT
> > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is
> > against the charter.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> it because they clicked on a message without realizing it had a file
> attached.

Yep my apologies, should have given some help as well.
beatyerbrainsout - 25 Mar 2005 11:33 GMT
> No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is
against the charter.

Somebody tell me this f.cking pussy isn't for real.
RSD99 - 25 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT
He's the one that is correct ... you are the one that is out of line.

> > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is
> against the charter.
>
> Somebody tell me this f.cking pussy isn't for real.
Lloyd Erlick - 17 Mar 2005 15:55 GMT
...
>BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post
>the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your
>needs . The file is in XLS format
>
>Regards
>Das

mar1705 from Lloyd Erlick,

Attachments are often stripped away from messages in
most newsgroups (except groups set up specifically for
attachments).

To distribute the file you describe (and no doubt many
people will appreciate seeing it!) put it on a website
and post the URL in this group.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

RSD99 - 17 Mar 2005 18:26 GMT
Another option would be to post the file to one of the binary groups ...
particularly one of the test groups ... such as

alt.binaries.test

And then post a notification that includes the name of the group, the
"Subject:" line, and the posting time. Then anyone that wants the file can
easily obtain it from a "public" source.

> ...
> >BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> ________________________________
> --
Das - 18 Mar 2005 06:45 GMT
Thanks a lot for your guidance and your suggestions. I have uploaded
the file at http://www.dasgallery.net/Downloads/ExposureCalci.xls

I have been using this file for printing with my Durst M670 Color and
so far its been pretty accurate. I must have made about a few thousand
prints with good results. However since I have been initiated into this
art of darkroom printing just recently, I am not sure about the
accuracy of this file from a professionals point of view. So I would
appreciate your comments , suggestions and yes if you find the file
useful feel free to use it...

Regards

Das
traveler - 21 Mar 2005 09:02 GMT
I use a trusty dial graph put out by Kodak, but I just noticed that it
doesn't go up to 16x20, so I checked in the Focal Encyclopedia of
Photography.  Considering that a centimeter is roughly 1/2 inch, what
you are asking is the difference in enlarger exposure time between a
5x7 and a 16x20 of the same photo.  Using Focal's table of approximate
exposure times at different magnifications, it gives an example of 12
seconds exposure time for a 5x photo, which translates to 80 seconds
for the same shot at 16x magnification.  That is roughly seven times as
long an exposure time.  The  8x10 requires roughly twice as long as the
5x7 and an 11x14 takes roughly four times as long as a 5x7.
 
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