Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005
On negative's enlargement
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Dada - 13 Mar 2005 23:01 GMT I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to enlarge a 35mm negative in a 10x15 cm paper, how can I convert this time to calculate the right one for a 30x40 cm size. I had read, a few mounths ago, something about a mathemitc rule for it, but I can't remember it. I wish someone could help me. Thanks.
Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 04:37 GMT > I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to > know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > remember it. I wish someone could help me. > Thanks. Enlargement magnified to divided by enlargement magnified from obtains the factor you multiple the exposure by to get the new enlargement exposure.
(1+M)^2 ------- = exposure factor (1+m)^2
M or m is the magnification ratio. The magnification ratio is the size of the projected image divided by the size of the negative along one dimension (along same side.) If you're going from 15cm enlargement to a 40cm enlargement using a 35mm negative m is 4.3 and M is 11.43. Thus
(1+11.43)^2 154.5 ----------- = ----- = 5.5 exposure factor (1+4.2)^2 28
Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel.
Mike King - 14 Mar 2005 07:26 GMT Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made on a piece of paper from the same batch. Anyone got a paper stretcher for sale?
The easiest way to get M and m is to measure one side of the projected image on the easel baseboard. You don't need to calculate magnification factors since it is only the magnification ratio that matters in the math, direct measurement will do that since the calculations that derive the magnification factor out.
The formula will get you close, but so will an Ilford EM-10, with no headscratching.
I also have a handy little slide rule, made by Gra-Lab once upon a time, that will factor in paper speed, magnification and filter factors for both PC filters and CP color printing filters.
I passed, but could have bought two EM-10's at a Camera Show and Sale this weekend for $15.00 each. I bought 10 easels for $5.00 (the lot, not each, including a 4-blade Omega) and four, 32 oz stainless steel tanks with lids for another $5.00--and not the cheap junk--there was a Kindermann and two Nikkors in the lot.
 Signature darkroommike
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> > > I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for > the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel. Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 11:16 GMT > Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made on a piece of paper > from the same batch. Anyone got a paper stretcher for sale? It works as well as any method regardless of batch and I've been using it very successfully for 25 years...
As someone once said, math is the language of the universe. Must have been right.
> The easiest way to get M and m is to measure one side of the projected image > on the easel baseboard. You don't need to calculate magnification factors You're NOT calculating a magnification factor, but an exposure factor. M is the magnification _ratio_. If you notice I said it's derives from negative --> projection along one dimension.
> since it is only the magnification ratio that matters in the math, direct > measurement will do that since the calculations that derive the > magnification factor out. > > The formula will get you close, but so will an Ilford EM-10, with no > headscratching. Convenience gadgets = $$ Your brain is free :) And people wonder why the rest of the world is outstripping American kids in math and science.
> I also have a handy little slide rule, made by Gra-Lab once upon a time, > that will factor in paper speed, magnification and filter factors for both [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Multiply the 10x15 print exposure by 5.7 to adjust for > > the difference in intensity of illumination at the easel. Richard Knoppow - 14 Mar 2005 23:09 GMT > Yeah and all of this assumes that the print will be made > on a piece of paper [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Kindermann and two > Nikkors in the lot. Kodak has a rotary slide rule included in their booklet _Kodak Black and White Darkroom Dataguide_ for calculating exposure vs: magnification. However, I also use an EM-10 since it also compensates for variations in the light source. The formula Tom posted is exact for diffusion enlargers but may not be for condenser enlargers.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
PSsquare - 14 Mar 2005 15:59 GMT Dada,
You can forget all of this magnification talk based upon the size of the print and just work from the height of the enlarger head. If your enlarger head for the smaller print was at 30 cm and for the larger size print has raised the head to 45 cm, then take the ratio of the two and square it. So, the ratio of 45/30 is 1.5 and the square of 1.5 is 2.25. So the new exposure is 2.25 times longer than the exposure for the smaller print.
All of this is based simply upon the fact the fixed energy output of the lamp projected from the lens is a circle. While the total light out is fixed, you dilute the energy so the energy per unit area decreases. The area of the circle it is spread over will increase as the square of the diameter of the circle. Pretty simple.
PSsquare
> I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would like to > know, for example, if I have found the right time of exposition to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > remember it. I wish someone could help me. > Thanks. Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 20:37 GMT > Dada, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > area of the circle it is spread over will increase as the square of the > diameter of the circle. Pretty simple. Pretty wrong.
> PSsquare > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > remember it. I wish someone could help me. > > Thanks. Richard Knoppow - 14 Mar 2005 23:35 GMT >I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would >like to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > remember it. I wish someone could help me. > Thanks. For enlargers with a diffusion source the formula is:
E2 = (M2 + 1)^2 / (M1 +1)2
Where:
E1 and M1 are the known exposure and magnification E2 and M2 are the second exposure and magnification
The reason this is not directly applicable to condenser enlargers is that the amount of light available at the source may vary with focal extension.
The distance between the _lens_ and the easil at any magnification is approximately (M+1)/f where f is the focal length of the lens.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Mike King - 15 Mar 2005 20:29 GMT So then, in essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel with a enlarging meter you can possibly get more accurate results than if you use the mathematical formula for some light sources?
 Signature darkroommike
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> > >I need to solve I doubt I have from a lot of time. I would [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > magnification is approximately (M+1)/f where f is the focal > length of the lens. Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Mar 2005 22:18 GMT > So then, in essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel > with a enlarging meter you can possibly get more accurate results than if > you use the mathematical formula for some light sources? In essence, if you measure the actual light output at the easel with a enlarging meter you are certain to get more accurate results than if you use the mathematical formula for any light source
OTOH, I don't know of any really accurate enlarging meters. The Ilford, Analyte, Beseler etc. will get you close, but not dead-nuts.
If you want to take the time it is possible to make a table of enlarger elevation Vs exposure time correction by making test prints at a series of head elevations. The chart will only be accurate for that enlarger/ head/lens. The results will also vary slightly between thin and thick emulsion films.
Along with exposure, contrast varies with magnification and this also varies differently with thin and thick films. And stray light changes ...
Enlarging exposure is not a pretty thing to get control of.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Gregory Blank - 15 Mar 2005 22:46 GMT > OTOH, I don't know of any really accurate enlarging meters. The Ilford, > Analyte, Beseler etc. will get you close, but not dead-nuts. The most accurate I know is the one I have, the Colorstar 3000. After I worked out the calibration it gets me the one print final for non critical work across multiple paper types and VC filtrations.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
photo_brewer - 23 Mar 2005 17:54 GMT all of these comments are very interesting , however trying to follow them is giving me a headache. It seems to me the tried and true method of printing a test strip will achieve the desire results, and just maybe, a little quicker and more precisely. PhotoBrewer aka: Larry B.
Tom Phillips - 23 Mar 2005 20:04 GMT > all of these comments are very interesting , however trying to follow > them is giving me a headache. It seems to me the tried and true method > of printing a test strip will achieve the desire results, and just > maybe, a little quicker and more precisely. > PhotoBrewer > aka: Larry B. No, it won't, since in photographic exposure 1+1 in a test strip will not equal an equivalent single exposure of the same length. Sorry, it's not my fault, it has to do with quantum physics ;) (called the Intermittency effect.)
Nor will simply adjusting for the enlarger head height difference (as some suggested) provide a "precise" exposure, since when you change the distance between the easel and the head you are actually changing two distances -- the lens to easel distance and negative to lens distance.
So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)
creosote - 23 Mar 2005 22:58 GMT Nor will simply adjusting for the enlarger head height difference (as some suggested) provide a "precise" exposure, since when you change the distance between the easel and the head you are actually changing two distances -- the lens to easel distance and negative to lens distance.
-- This method may not give a "precise" exposure time difference, as you say (note use of the term "approximate"), but it is usually close enough for most applications. I find that when I move up to a bigger enlargement (say, from 5x7 to 8x10, the results may be very similar or require both an adjustment in exposure AND color balance, but since very few photographers on this forum print their own color shots, they may not be aware of this).
So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)
Inaccessible - 23 Mar 2005 23:53 GMT In article <4241BE20.8D11A7D7@aol.com>, Tom Phillips <nospam777@aol.com> wrote:
> So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using > the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^)
> So, make sure you properly calculate exposure using > the equation provided. Asprin is O.K. ;^) So Who is exactly saying this?
beatyerbrainsout - 25 Mar 2005 11:29 GMT > So Who is exactly saying this? Jesus, what a pest. People like you ought to be shot.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 23 Mar 2005 23:38 GMT > It seems to me the tried and true method of printing > a test strip will achieve the desire results, A test strip is a good way to the ballpark. If your exposure is not there on the first try a second may be needed. Once there, make one to a few 5x7s on a grade 2 RC paper. Stick to that one paper and save the usefull prints. You'll need to relate results from those 5x7s to the paper used when makeing your for-show prints. When changing size for same negative, Ilford's EM-10 enlarging exposure meter, around $29, will keep your exposure bull's eyed. Dan
Das - 17 Mar 2005 03:10 GMT I have an Microsoft excel file to help with Darkroom calculations. I use this when I need to make enlargements. I make a sample test print, make color corrections and exposure corrections till I feel that the pirnt is perfect and then I put in the details in the excel file on my Handheld. I usually put in the width of the exposure - say 8.25" and the exposure that I felt was perfect - say 1.8 secs and then in the rows below all I have to do is to put in the new size that I would want to print - say 30" ( That is the width parameter of the image- I can print either a 30"x40" or a 30"x10" or a small test print -whatever the exposure will remain the same) And I get the new exposure for the enlargement. - Of course, I always take a small sample print of some portion of this enlarged image to verify if the calculated exposure is correct-
The excel file also has tables for calculating values for either overexposing or underexposing.
How this table works. ? Calculates the area and the light dissipated for the new area....
Have tried out and it works for me.
BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your needs . The file is in XLS format
Regards Das
Inaccessible - 17 Mar 2005 13:54 GMT > BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post > the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your > needs . The file is in XLS format No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is against the charter.
Rod Smith - 17 Mar 2005 16:08 GMT >> BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post >> the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your >> needs . The file is in XLS format > > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is > against the charter. To offer an alternative, if you want to make a file available to readers of the group, put it up on your own Web space and then post the URL, as in:
http://www.example.com/foo.xls
You don't even need to create a full Web page, just put the file there and post the link. The same procedure works for any file type. Readers who are interested can then click or cut-and-paste the URL to download the file, and those who aren't interested won't waste a lot of bandwidth downloading it because they clicked on a message without realizing it had a file attached.
 Signature Rod Smith, rodsmith@rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
Inaccessible - 17 Mar 2005 16:43 GMT > > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is > > against the charter. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it because they clicked on a message without realizing it had a file > attached. Yep my apologies, should have given some help as well.
beatyerbrainsout - 25 Mar 2005 11:33 GMT > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is against the charter.
Somebody tell me this f.cking pussy isn't for real.
RSD99 - 25 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT He's the one that is correct ... you are the one that is out of line.
> > No: - Do Not - post attachments of any type to these groups, it is > against the charter. > > Somebody tell me this f.cking pussy isn't for real. Lloyd Erlick - 17 Mar 2005 15:55 GMT ...
>BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post >the file for you to check out and use if you find it accurate for your >needs . The file is in XLS format > >Regards >Das mar1705 from Lloyd Erlick,
Attachments are often stripped away from messages in most newsgroups (except groups set up specifically for attachments).
To distribute the file you describe (and no doubt many people will appreciate seeing it!) put it on a website and post the URL in this group.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
RSD99 - 17 Mar 2005 18:26 GMT Another option would be to post the file to one of the binary groups ... particularly one of the test groups ... such as
alt.binaries.test
And then post a notification that includes the name of the group, the "Subject:" line, and the posting time. Then anyone that wants the file can easily obtain it from a "public" source.
> ... > >BTW , I am new to forums and I would like to know as to how I can post [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > ________________________________ > -- Das - 18 Mar 2005 06:45 GMT Thanks a lot for your guidance and your suggestions. I have uploaded the file at http://www.dasgallery.net/Downloads/ExposureCalci.xls
I have been using this file for printing with my Durst M670 Color and so far its been pretty accurate. I must have made about a few thousand prints with good results. However since I have been initiated into this art of darkroom printing just recently, I am not sure about the accuracy of this file from a professionals point of view. So I would appreciate your comments , suggestions and yes if you find the file useful feel free to use it...
Regards
Das
traveler - 21 Mar 2005 09:02 GMT I use a trusty dial graph put out by Kodak, but I just noticed that it doesn't go up to 16x20, so I checked in the Focal Encyclopedia of Photography. Considering that a centimeter is roughly 1/2 inch, what you are asking is the difference in enlarger exposure time between a 5x7 and a 16x20 of the same photo. Using Focal's table of approximate exposure times at different magnifications, it gives an example of 12 seconds exposure time for a 5x photo, which translates to 80 seconds for the same shot at 16x magnification. That is roughly seven times as long an exposure time. The 8x10 requires roughly twice as long as the 5x7 and an 11x14 takes roughly four times as long as a 5x7.
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