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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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reusing fixer?

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death skunk five - 13 Mar 2005 20:29 GMT
are there any chemicals that can test fixer exaustion?

i want to start reusing photo-flo and fix.
are there any issues?

thanks
Tom Phillips - 13 Mar 2005 20:57 GMT
> are there any chemicals that can test fixer exaustion?
>
> i want to start reusing photo-flo and fix.
> are there any issues?

Don't reuse photoflo (store) solutions.

Fixer is used until exhaustion (I use mine until it
just shows signs of exhaustion, not until completely
exhausted. The more silver byproducts there are in
the fixer, the less efficiently it fixes the emulsion.
You can buy bottles of Hypo check at any photo supply
for checking fixer or make your own (FT-1):

Water at 80F         750ml
Potassium Iodide     190g
Water to make        1 liter
Store in a bottle for 1 year

5 drops Ft-1 plus 5 drops fixer plus 5 drops water.
Discard if a white or yellow white precipitate forms.
Richard Knoppow - 13 Mar 2005 22:09 GMT
>> are there any chemicals that can test fixer exaustion?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 5 drops Ft-1 plus 5 drops fixer plus 5 drops water.
> Discard if a white or yellow white precipitate forms.

  Edwal sells a made up iodide solution called Hypo Check.
  The formula given above and instructions are in the
_Kodak Black and White Darkroom Dataguide_ which is not
expensive and should be available from any of the larger
photo suppliers that still sell darkroom supplies.
  Another way to test fixer is to fix out a scrap of film
in the fresh fixer and see how long it takes to clear. Then
test the fixer periodically with scraps of the same type of
film to see how much longer it is taking. The old rule of
thumb is to discard the fixer when clearing time has doubled
but this is probably too far exhausted.
  Two bath fixing very much extends the life of fixing
baths because the second bath can clean up after a first
bath this is too exhausted to be used on its own. When the
first bath reaches its capacity the second bath is
substituted for it and a fresh second bath mixed up. This
routine extends the life of fixer, especially for archival
purposes, for from four to ten times that of a single bath.
The use of a sulfite wash aid, like Kodak Hypo Clearing
Agent, after fixing further extends fixer life because it
allows the washing out of some otherwise incompletely
soluble silver complexes.
  The problem with re-using a wetting agent bath is that it
can eventually become contaminated with residue from the
film, either gelatin or hypo. Gelatin will allow growth of
bacteria in the bath. Photo Flo is cheap enough to use
one-shot.
  A good final rinse for film is:
Water to make 1.0 liter
Isopropyl alcohol, 99%   25 ml or if 70% 35ml
Photo Flo  2.5 ml (half the usually recommended strength)
Soak the film in this for about 2 minutes after washing and
hang up to dry without squeegeeing. This should be discarded
after use.
  If rubbing alcohol is used make sure its Isopropyl
alcohol and that its only alcohol and water, not the kind
with Oil of Wintergreen or some other flavoring in it.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Mike King - 14 Mar 2005 07:13 GMT
Used to run a sink line for black and white, 3.5 gallon tanks.  We reused
photo-flo, with tanks that deep we didn't get much crud on film unless we
agitated the solution when we put the hanger rack in but let me tell you the
mold, algae and bacteria that can grow in a tank of photo-flo are really
nasty and have a habit of depositing only in the nearly clear areas on film
where they will subsequently stick forever.  Stinks when you clean the
tanks, too.

And why bother.  I used wetting agents at extreme dilution's, one or two
drops per roll.  I am still using from bottles my chums bought for a film
class in 1976 and then gave to me when they finished the class.

Test solutions for fixer are a bad idea,  they only tell you, post mortem,
that your fixer is already dead,  much better to use two baths and discard
the first fixer after 100 8x10 prints per gallon (about 1/2 of Kodak's
recommendations).  Then fixer 2 becomes fixer 1 for another 100 prints.
Currently $12.00USD will fix 100 prints, that's 12 cents per print.

For film, I process one shot, using a Unicolor film base, my fixer usage is
pretty low, I use Kodafix at paper dilution, one shot for film.  I have been
known to reuse this fix for RC contact prints.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> > are there any chemicals that can test fixer exaustion?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> 5 drops Ft-1 plus 5 drops fixer plus 5 drops water.
> Discard if a white or yellow white precipitate forms.
Tom Phillips - 14 Mar 2005 11:43 GMT
> Used to run a sink line for black and white, 3.5 gallon tanks.  We reused
> photo-flo, with tanks that deep we didn't get much crud on film unless we
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Test solutions for fixer are a bad idea,  they only tell you, post mortem,
> that your fixer is already dead,  

Test solutions can also inform about fixer condition
before post mortem sets in. There are progressive degrees
to the precipitate that forms. Notice I said I never use
fixer to exhaustion...

> much better to use two baths and discard
> the first fixer after 100 8x10 prints per gallon (about 1/2 of Kodak's
> recommendations).  Then fixer 2 becomes fixer 1 for another 100 prints.
> Currently $12.00USD will fix 100 prints, that's 12 cents per print.

You can count prints, but it won't tell you how
over saturated with silver byproducts the fix is.

> For film, I process one shot, using a Unicolor film base, my fixer usage is
> pretty low, I use Kodafix at paper dilution, one shot for film.  I have been
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > 5 drops Ft-1 plus 5 drops fixer plus 5 drops water.
> > Discard if a white or yellow white precipitate forms.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 15 Mar 2005 00:45 GMT
> > Used to run a sink line for black and white, 3.5 gallon tanks.  We reused
> > photo-flo, with tanks that deep we didn't get much crud on film unless we
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > drops per roll.  I am still using from bottles my chums bought for a film
> > class in 1976 and then gave to me when they finished the class.

   One-Shot on the Photo Flo.

> > Test solutions for fixer are a bad idea,  they only tell you, post mortem,
> > that your fixer is already dead,

   The instructions for use of the FT-1 potassium iodide test vary.
Worst of all I'm quite sure the test is of little value at archival
levels. At that level the amount of silver per unit volume gives an
indefinite determination with that iodide titration.
   At those very dilute archival levels I've used the iodide test
in combination with the ST-1, the sulfur test for silver left in the
emulsion. Another test is an after processing expose and redevelop.
If fixed well nothing will develop.

> Test solutions can also inform about fixer condition
> before post mortem sets in. There are progressive degrees
> to the precipitate that forms. Notice I said I never use
> fixer to exhaustion...

 There's something to that. But remember it's the amount of
silver per unit volume which determines exhaustion and that
amount is great for films and RC papers and high for other
than archivaly processed FB.

> > much better to use two baths and discard
> > the first fixer after 100 8x10 prints per gallon (about 1/2 of Kodak's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You can count prints, but it won't tell you how
> over saturated with silver byproducts the fix is.

 Maximum archival levels of silver per liter are .5 and .2 grams;
that according to Ilford then Haist. Ilford's 10 8 x 10s per liter
limit is the same for the 1:4 and the 1:9 dilutions; there again
silver per unit volume.
 The silver content of B&W papers runs 1.6 grams per square meter
or .08 grams per 8 x 10. If the paper is not exposed then 10 prints
will put .8 grams silver into a liter of fix.
 I use fixer one-shot and so dilute, 1:49, that I've archival
results with one fix and at the same time can process 200 8 x 10s
with one liter of concentrate.                                Dan

> > For film, I process one shot, using a Unicolor film base, my fixer usage
> > usage is pretty low, I use Kodafix at paper dilution, one shot for
film.
> > I have been known to reuse this fix for RC contact prints.

   I don't know your solution volume but likely less fix would do.
I've found 20ml of concentrate in a volume of 500ml does a 120 Pan F+.
Dan
Tom Phillips - 15 Mar 2005 01:58 GMT
> > > Used to run a sink line for black and white, 3.5 gallon tanks.  We
> reused
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> levels. At that level the amount of silver per unit volume gives an
> indefinite determination with that iodide titration.

Of course it's not meant to determine archivalness.

>     At those very dilute archival levels I've used the iodide test
> in combination with the ST-1, the sulfur test for silver left in the
> emulsion. Another test is an after processing expose and redevelop.
> If fixed well nothing will develop.

ST-1 is a method to quantify archival fixing, but OTOH,
I find the determination of staining with many of these
tests inexact. Both ST-1 and HT-2 can leave slight
"cream" colored stains that we're supposed to "ignore"
while other stains (yellowish) indicate "positive"
results with apparent certainty. Frankly, I'm not always
sure about such visual differences between various stains
(to me "cream" is "yellow.") Adams as I recall claimed
no stain should be visible (HT-2?) yet I always get a
stain (obstensibly "cream") no matter how long or short
I fix, or how long I wash (wash aid+wash.)

> > Test solutions can also inform about fixer condition
> > before post mortem sets in. There are progressive degrees
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> amount is great for films and RC papers and high for other
> than archivaly processed FB.

I'm only noting is it does give a reliable _idea_ when
fix is/begins to become saturated. I discard not when a
heavy yellow precipitate forms and remains even after
shaking (as per most instructions), but when at the first
slight sign of precipitate forms (i.e., I test hypo after
each print.) Then I mix fresh fix and refix the last two
prints. This usually happens before I reach the recommended
limit of processed prints, though it's difficult to keep
an accurate count. So, in my experience FT-1/hypo check
tests are more useful and telling than counting prints.
Also, I don't recommend using the positive tested fix
for a second bath, but I store and use it for test prints
only.

> > > much better to use two baths and discard
> > > the first fixer after 100 8x10 prints per gallon (about 1/2 of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> or .08 grams per 8 x 10. If the paper is not exposed then 10 prints
> will put .8 grams silver into a liter of fix.

I'd say the silver content of various papers is
proprietary and varies.

>   I use fixer one-shot and so dilute, 1:49, that I've archival
> results with one fix and at the same time can process 200 8 x 10s
> with one liter of concentrate.                                Dan

What's your fix time?
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 16 Mar 2005 01:50 GMT
> >     The instructions for use of the FT-1 potassium iodide test vary.
> > Worst of all I'm quite sure the test is of little value at archival
> > levels. At that level the amount of silver per unit volume gives an
> > indefinite determination with that iodide titration.
>
> Of course it's not meant to determine archivalness.

 At those low levels of silver, .5gr and .2gr per liter by
Ilford and Haist, I think that true by my own testing as above
mentioned. But I think there's a chance the FT-1 test could be
quantified for archival level testing. I've the silver nitrate
and sodium chloride and iodide to make the calibration but am
short on time. For titration sodium sulfide may be better;
it generates a darkish cloud.

> >     At those very dilute archival levels I've used the iodide test
> > in combination with the ST-1, the sulfur test for silver left in the
> > emulsion. Another test is an after processing expose and redevelop.
> > If fixed well nothing will develop.
>
> ST-1 is a method to quantify archival fixing, ...

 And perhaps a very good one at that. I'd not thought of
it in that way. An archival fix goes beyond the usuall fix.
It might even be considered part of the wash sequence; two
and even three bath 'fixing'.

> I find the determination of staining with many of these
> tests inexact. Both ST-1 and HT-2 can leave slight
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> stain (obstensibly "cream") no matter how long or short
> I fix, or how long I wash (wash aid+wash.)

 Simplify your life. Accept NO stain; ZERO stain. With my
fix tests I test the sulfide first on a strip of unprocessed
paper; an almost black spot is the result. Then a drop is placed
on an unexposed, undeveloped, pre-wetted, fixed and well washed
paper. It's the tough test; all of the silver halides must
come out in the fix and wash.
 Sulfide or selenium, only test on well washed prints. Needless
to say, all the fixer must be removed as it is the carrier of
the silver from the paper.

> >   Maximum archival levels of silver per liter are .5 and .2 grams;
> > that according to Ilford then Haist. Ilford's 10 8 x 10s per liter
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'd say the silver content of various papers is
> proprietary and varies.

 Thats true. A few contents are mentioned with the data sheets.
Dr. Henry has listed a few. Most are 1.6 grams +/- a little.

> >   I use fixer one-shot and so dilute, 1:49, that I've archival
> > results with one fix and at the same time can process 200 8 x 10s
> > with one liter of concentrate.                                Dan
>
> What's your fix time?

 I was using S. Thio which works well very dilute. I thought I
should give P. Formulary's 60% a try. I was using it at 1:31 but
had not tested; so 1:39 then 1:49. The 1:49 was tested for 3, 2.5,
then 2 minutes; constant agitation. All scored ZERO stain.
 Arista 5x7, RC Gr 2, pre-wetted only; 125ml, 4oz, volume.
 I'll soon be working with some fiber base and at larger sizes.
I think the Arista results will work as is, with of course
adjustment for size. Of course I will test each paper.            Dan
Tom Phillips - 16 Mar 2005 02:46 GMT
snip..

> > >   I use fixer one-shot and so dilute, 1:49, that I've archival
> > > results with one fix and at the same time can process 200 8 x 10s
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I think the Arista results will work as is, with of course
> adjustment for size. Of course I will test each paper.            Dan

I would think the dilution would lengthen the
fix time (as tested on a scrap of paper in timed
increments and then developed.)

Takes a minimun 25 seconds to fix seagull in
rapid at 1:3; never tested S. thio at any
dilution.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 17 Mar 2005 00:44 GMT
> snip..
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> fix time (as tested on a scrap of paper in timed
> increments and then developed.)

 That test will not work for a very dilute fixer. It is
intended that the chemistry be near exhaustion at end of fixing.
Real world testing with full size samples is needed.
Extrapolation is permissible.

> Takes a minimun 25 seconds to fix seagull in
> rapid at 1:3; never tested S. thio at any
> dilution.

 Ilford's Quick fix in film strength was 30 seconds. I've
read as little as 20 seconds to fix. So 120 seconds, if it be
that much, is more time. Two minutes is quick enough for me. The
fixer is used one-shot so always fresh for each print or prints
processed at the same time.
 For one-shot start to finish processing I needed a very dilute
fixer. That has worked out very well.
 An added bonus is the achievement of archival results with one
fix. And that with a full 200 8x10s per liter of concentrate.
 Your concentrate and paper may differ a little.            Dan
Richard Knoppow - 15 Mar 2005 02:44 GMT
>> Used to run a sink line for black and white, 3.5 gallon
>> tanks.  We reused
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>> --
>> darkroommike

  Since the silver load on the fixer depends on how much
halide is left in the emulsion after developing it will vary
from print to print being higher for high key prints than
low key prints. the same for negatives; high density
negatives have less unused halide to fix out.
  The best test for fixing is a residual silver test on the
film or paper. The simplest residual silver test is a
solution of Sodium Sulfide or Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner,
diluted 1:9. The latter has the advantage of availability,
long life, and low odor, but fails where the material has an
excess of hypo in it.

Kodak ST-1 Residual Silver Test
Stock Solution
Water                        100.0 ml
Sodium Sulfide (not sulfite)   2.0 grams

For use dilute this 1 part stock to 9 parts water.
Place a drop or two on a clear area of a print or film.
Allow to stand for about 3 minutes. Rinse off. There should
be no visible stain. Hold film against a white surface to
make any staining more visible.
 The life of the stock solution is about 3 months. Working
solution should be made up at the time of use and not kept.
 For paper its a good idea to fix out a scrap of whatever
paper you are using and test that rather than an actual
print so that there is no chance of a stain developing
later.

  I will add to this that while the Iodide test is useful
there is no simple way of analysing the silver load of a
fixing bath. The residual halide test above tests the
fixer's effectiveness, which is what is important.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Stewy - 30 Mar 2005 11:07 GMT
> > are there any chemicals that can test fixer exaustion?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 5 drops Ft-1 plus 5 drops fixer plus 5 drops water.
> Discard if a white or yellow white precipitate forms.

I would suggest storing exhausted fixer until you have a sizeable amount
- say a gallon or so. There are companies who remove the silver for
re-cycling - this is much better than simply allowing it to be discarded
in a landfill.
Lloyd Erlick - 30 Mar 2005 15:30 GMT
...

>I would suggest storing exhausted fixer until you have a sizeable amount
>- say a gallon or so. There are companies who remove the silver for
>re-cycling - this is much better than simply allowing it to be discarded
>in a landfill.

mar3005 from Lloyd Erlick,

Some of those companies are mini-lab operators and
camera/photo shops that do processing. They will often
accept spent fixer from individuals so they can put it
through their reclamation process.

I used to deal with a camera shop near my old place
that actually paid a dollar per gallon of spent fixer!
They deserve a plug - West Camera in Toronto. Peter,
the owner, is a responsible fellow who actually
believes in customer service.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

 
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