Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005
Paper and Negative Mgt.
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??? - 13 Mar 2005 14:27 GMT What are various ways to keep track of your negatives and work?
We all make contact sheets; I number and date them and keep them separate from the negatives. I have a log sheet that I keep with the contact sheet showing prints I made from them and the exposure information.
I finally figured out to write exposure information on the back of the test prints *before* I place the paper on the easel. Ball point pen does not wash out in Dektol, stop bath, fixer or HCA; nor does it out wash out over a couple hour rinse. So now I no longer have to guess which print went with which notes the next day.
Right now my notation prints are boxed and I guess will be filed by subject matter; allowing me to access them by subject or contact sheet.
But given it took me a couple years to figure out to record my test notes on the print itself, it dawns on me that print and negative mgt can become a real nightmare; "I have an excellent shot of that which prints easily; where the Hell is it?".
Anyone care to share? Don't really want one more thing to do on the computer (why I have darkroom in the first place); but I would be open to plans that involve software.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
John Bartley - 13 Mar 2005 16:28 GMT >What are various ways to keep track of your negatives and work? > >Anyone care to share? Don't really want one more thing to do on the >computer (why I have darkroom in the first place); but I would be open to >plans that involve software. For me photography is a hobby. I use a 4x5 camera, so I don't take a whole pile of photos and then weed them out. I try to make each shot count and even if it's not a good shot, I try to learn from it. I carry a school type note book with me and in it I record the details of each picture as follows ::
> *#51* > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > - *Underdeveloped as I thought I had overexposed – forgot that the US > system of aperture is different from iso* I write these up in the computer as a text file and number each negative. Then I put each negative into a sleeve and keep them in order in a filing cabinet.
Now you know why I don't do too many - it's a hobby :)
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
??? - 14 Mar 2005 13:25 GMT John,
I shoot 4X5 and 35mm. The question is not how we shoot film; it is how to manage the printing results so that prints are accessible and the information used to create that result is also accessible.
If I print 15% of my 35mm shots to 8X10 that is a lot; and that is really the smallest I shoot for. When smaller prints are intended, I shoot color and send it to Ritz. My B&W is my attempt at art; not vacation or family records.
Having said that, there are a number of color print film negatives that have yielded post card quality prints; especially stuff I shot this last summer while driving up from San Francisco to Seattle.
There is no doubt in my mind that my efforts at B&W composition helped create those prints. Now I am using Provia in the F100 and Reala print in the N80 when not shooting B&W (T-max).
It is all amateur interest. I look at how much time I spend vs. cost of materials and I can quickly see how a talented amateur can get "lured" into turning pro; only to find out they can no longer do the kind of work they enjoyed because making money means doing things you can do quickly (until you become established as an artist).
Still, I expect to create a portfolio of a couple hundred "good" prints in the next 20 years ( I am now 50) and I would like to learn how others organize their archive.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>>What are various ways to keep track of your negatives and work? >> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Now you know why I don't do too many - it's a hobby :) John Bartley - 14 Mar 2005 16:47 GMT >John, > >I shoot 4X5 and 35mm. The question is not how we shoot film; it is how to >manage the printing results so that prints are accessible and the >information used to create that result is also accessible. That was also the question for me and was the reason that I put everything into a "note per negative" fashion. The example I used didn;t show any printing information and I forgot to add that when I make a print, I go back to both my written notes (if they're handy) and always to my computer notes and add the printing info. I include things like type of enlarger, size of bulb, type of paper, filters used, exposure times as well as developing times and chemicals for the paper.
I do have a (personal) issue with the idea of recording the printing info. I have a feeling that it will work ok as long as I and whoever follows, remembers that it is "guidelines" I've written so that I/we can reproduce the print with minimal effort. The sticking point will be things like different batches of paper, different mixes or types of developer (whatever's handy is likely what will get used?), age of the light bulb in the enlarger, is it even the same enlarger for the next set of prints?
So...........the reason I make these notes is in order to provide guidelines for my next work. I can also use these notes to help me see how I am progressing in both printing and picture taking. I doo a duplicate set on the computer from my written notes so that I can search them if I'm looking for something specific.
Your question about print accessibility for the few (relative to the # of negs) that you plan to print and keep?.......hmmm. Unless you can formulate an analogue idex of some sort, whether by type of photo (scenic, portrait etc.) or type of film or camera, and then cross reference that to the negative and the print physical storage areas, the only way to access them easily is going to be by numbering them and creating a software database that can be searched and sorted.
end of my $0.02
cheers
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Mar 2005 19:48 GMT > I do have a (personal) issue with the idea of recording the printing > info. I have a feeling that it will work ok as long as I and whoever > follows ... Or, make a few excellent prints and then forget about it and move on to something completely new.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
??? - 16 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT That's the beauty of getting to be an old fart. You recognize staying power is one of the few things left that gets you out of bed in the morning. %^)
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>> I do have a (personal) issue with the idea of recording the printing >> info. I have a feeling that it will work ok as long as I and whoever >> follows ... > > Or, make a few excellent prints and then forget about it and move on > to something completely new. Nicholas O. Lindan - 16 Mar 2005 16:27 GMT > That's the beauty of getting to be an old fart. You recognize staying power > is one of the few things left that gets you out of bed in the morning. %^) And not hydraulic pressure?
Staying power is what gets some of us _into_ bed.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Mar 2005 19:42 GMT > Still, I expect to create a portfolio of a couple hundred "good" prints in > the next 20 years ( I am now 50) and I would like to learn how others > organize their archive. The key requirement for something to become art is that someone sees it.
Take a tip from artists that have gone before: Don't archive a damn thing.
Sell, give away, scatter to the winds your output and the people who like it will archive it for you.
If you are _really_ good then at your retirement or death you should torch (or have torched) your darkroom with all your negatives and remaining prints. Invite the newspapers to watch. This increases the value of your work immeasurably and everyone will want to have a look at it to know what all the fuss is about. Dollars to donuts some self-appointed critic in said curious mob will anoint you a genius and you will be on your way.
Of course, to be a great artist you first have to be dead.
If you put all your creations away in a Yuppie-fetish Light-Impressions 'Boxe' then sooner or later it will come into the hands of a philistine [or man of good taste] and it will be "Oh no, _more_ of this stuff -- what _was_ he thinking? Another one for the dumpster".
Your throw-away, Ritz processed, rapidly fading vacation snaps of Aunt Martha will be kept and cherished, copied and hung over the fireplace irregardless. Aunt Martha will be remembered and you will be forgotten.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Gregory Blank - 15 Mar 2005 01:35 GMT LOL
> > Still, I expect to create a portfolio of a couple hundred "good" prints in > > the next 20 years ( I am now 50) and I would like to learn how others [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Of course, to be a great artist you first have to be dead. You could fondue yourself and your work,...that would kill two birds with one stone.
> If you put all your creations away in a Yuppie-fetish Light-Impressions > 'Boxe' then sooner or later it will come into the hands of a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fireplace irregardless. Aunt Martha will be remembered and you > will be forgotten. I prefer Aunt Jemima better, she's much sweeter....
http://images.google.com/images?q=Aunt+Jemima&hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rl= en-us&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
??? - 16 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT (LOL)
While I am doing what I do to satisfy my own interests, your point rings a bell. When I was in college I lived with a piano major attending the Crane School of Music. She was excellent at interpretation and a great technician.
The only problem was that she *could* not play for audiences. She was eventually transferred into the music teacher program. She found her niche and was happy when I last knew her (5 years after graduation). But dear God, she could play Grieg and Rachmaninoff to bring tears to your eyes.
But, you are right; by definition *art* is a public phenomenon.
I do give my prints away, and I do sign them. But I also sign the pieces that I make during the course of a watch restoration. I have tracked the marks of several workman from the 19th and early 20th century; those who follow do recognize good work and I have no problem wanting to be remembered.
"Display" prints are marked only with the roll/neg number and my mark in the wide margin at the bottom. The final test print (proof?) is fully marked and filed.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>> Still, I expect to create a portfolio of a couple hundred "good" prints >> in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > fireplace irregardless. Aunt Martha will be remembered and you > will be forgotten. dan.c.quinn@att.net - 14 Mar 2005 00:12 GMT > What are various ways to keep track of your > negatives and work? My next roll of exposed 120 will be 2 - 05 ; year and roll that year. That and a frame number where appropriate follow any work with that roll. Next year will start with 1 - 06. That and the frame range, ie 1 - 5, 6 - 10, is the only information supplied with the sleeved negatives The prints have only that much on their back plus, perhaps, a series identification, ie Ans/Be Ser. I'm currently working with the Ansco/Beers A formula and have found that the addition of Beers B DOES add contrast control to graded paper processing. Dan
Ken Hart - 14 Mar 2005 22:47 GMT > > What are various ways to keep track of your > > negatives and work? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > found that the addition of Beers B DOES add contrast control > to graded paper processing. Dan I number rolls consecutively, starting at the dawn of time (well, the dawn of _my_ time!), and use the frame number. The back of the print will have a number like "8742-04"; the fourth frame of roll #8742. For my studio work, a database has the neg number, the customer name, the type of picture (ex: "Baby- high key"), the color/exposure correction (ex: M3 R5 N-2, these figures are punched in the minilab printer when I reprint this neg), and the date. I sleeve negs and store them in numerical order in envelopes in a fire-file cabinet. If a particular customer wants a reprint but doesn't have a neg#, I go to the database.
Ken Hart
??? - 16 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT That is what I do except display prints are marked in the front lower (wider) left hand border with Roll/neg number and file copies of final prnts are marked with carrier hgt, exposure info, filter no. and roll/neg.
My filing system is the same as yours w/ the exception that I do not have customers to worry with. I haven't bothered with a databasebecause my print library is still easy to access physically. Although I can see a simple database can make things easier if I get a large enough library.
Right now, if I want to make another copy of a print, I get the negative info from the display print. Pull the negative and the file print. File print tells me what I did. Make a test print and dry. Adjust for paper differences. Print. While the absolute values of the exposure in manipulation data may not fit the new paper, I have found they get me close and that the relative changes generally hold. Sure beats starting all over again.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>> > What are various ways to keep track of your >> > negatives and work? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Ken Hart Mike King - 14 Mar 2005 07:01 GMT I used to use ball-point and then quit (archival concerns and transfer of ink to the front of the next image) I now use a very soft pencil, 6B, the back of most RC papers have enough "tooth" to hold soft pencil impressions.
 Signature darkroommike
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> What are various ways to keep track of your negatives and work? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > computer (why I have darkroom in the first place); but I would be open to > plans that involve software. ??? - 14 Mar 2005 13:25 GMT Display prints do not get marked; it is only the work prints and file copy that get marked on the back before printing. I found myself taking way too much time trying to match my darkroom notes to the dried prints. This way the information is on the back of the print (in the bottom border which I make twice as wide as the others). It really helps when I make several test prints with different exposures.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>I used to use ball-point and then quit (archival concerns and transfer of > ink to the front of the next image) I now use a very soft pencil, 6B, the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> computer (why I have darkroom in the first place); but I would be open to >> plans that involve software. Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Mar 2005 19:17 GMT >>>> ...[Marking the back of RC test prints so you can remember what >>>> you did]... I use a big sharpie marker. Haven't had any bleed through in the 20 years I have been doing it. Easy to use, easy to read in dim light.
Of course, when I finally make the test print I want I find when washing that I never wrote anything on the back and I can't remember just what it was I did.
Marking the front is more a problem with me. I trace out the dodge/burn areas on the face of the test print, using the enlarger's red filter. But sharpie marker 'stuff' floats off in the fix and the marks become hard to decipher.
So: anybody know how to write permanently on the _front_ of unprocessed RC paper.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
bob - 14 Mar 2005 19:33 GMT > So: anybody know how to write permanently on the _front_ of > unprocessed RC paper. If you don't rub on them you could use china markers.
Bob
Gregory Blank - 15 Mar 2005 01:30 GMT > >>>> ...[Marking the back of RC test prints so you can remember what > >>>> you did]... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So: anybody know how to write permanently on the _front_ of > unprocessed RC paper. I do one better I use a single hole punch and designate variations as a set multiple number of holes,...I just write the sequence changes into my darkroom log book.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
??? - 16 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT For prints that require more than simple manipulation that can be noted on the back, I file two copies. One is the final print. The other is the straight print with the basic exposure. On the back are the basic exposure notes. On the front is my manipulation map w/ settings.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
>>>>> ...[Marking the back of RC test prints so you can remember what >>>>> you did]... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So: anybody know how to write permanently on the _front_ of > unprocessed RC paper. ??? - 16 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT Thank you for all your input. I guess I have been using a system that is as logical as any unless I reach a point where it makes sense to create a simple database on the computer.
 Signature Regards, Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution
> What are various ways to keep track of your negatives and work? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > computer (why I have darkroom in the first place); but I would be open to > plans that involve software. traveler - 21 Mar 2005 10:19 GMT Call me obtuse, but I don't understand the need for writing anything on a print. I don't notice any particular problem keeping everything in some semblance of order -- neg rolls numbered and archivally stored, contact sheets numbered correspondingly and stored separately, notebook of darkroom procedures for each shot (frame # and roll #) printed therein. I only save the final print at each magnification, tear up and throw out most test prints or give away "near misses," so the shot I've got in on file or up on the wall or that I've printed and mounted for somebody else is ALWAYS the final print, as noted in my darkroom log.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Mar 2005 17:38 GMT "traveler" <Vallecito@aol.com> wrote
> ... I don't understand the need for writing anything on > a print. ... order ... numbered ... archivally ... numbered correspondingly > ... stored separately ... notebook ... procedures for each shot ... > ALWAYS the final print ... darkroom log. If when arriving at a dock a sailboat douses the spinnaker in the channel, has fenders out and lines stowed, sails into the slip while dropping the main, stopping on a dime, then the captain and crew will get nothing but a cold shoulder from the other sailors in the marina.
If the sailboat: fouls the spinnaker in the channel and it goes under the boat and gets stuck on the keel; half the fenders aren't tied to the toe rail and are floating free and those that were tied are tied on the wrong side; all the sheets are to the wind and waves - along with the halyards, topping lift, preventer, yardarm, boom-vang and out-haul; the boat is stranded in irons in the middle of the lagoon trying to get the engine started and finally comes into the slip sideways then everyone will jump on the boat, lend a hand, declare the captain and crew capital fellows and throw a party in their honor that evening.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Gregory Blank - 21 Mar 2005 17:53 GMT > "traveler" <Vallecito@aol.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > will jump on the boat, lend a hand, declare the captain and crew > capital fellows and throw a party in their honor that evening. For the truly creatively impaired ,....what Nicholas stated as translated by me:
In other words it takes some skill to save yer arse, and not a lot to show off :-)
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
whizbang - 22 Mar 2005 05:23 GMT For the truly creatively impaired ,....what Nicholas stated as translated by me:
In other words it takes some skill to save yer arse, and not a lot to show off :-)
Maybe so, but it takes some courage to say exactly what you mean, while any fool can play the smartass and leave people scratching their heads before collectively ignoring him.
Inaccessible - 22 Mar 2005 06:24 GMT > For the truly creatively impaired ,....what Nicholas stated as > translated by me: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > any fool can play the smartass and leave people scratching their heads > before collectively ignoring him. It would be a little more credible position to take without the anonymous posting.
whizbang - 23 Mar 2005 07:04 GMT > > For the truly creatively impaired ,....what Nicholas stated as > > translated by me: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It would be a little more credible position to take without the > anonymous posting. You oughta know, junior.
Inaccessible - 23 Mar 2005 13:47 GMT > You oughta know, junior. Yep - I know a troll when I see one.
creosote - 23 Mar 2005 23:13 GMT > Maybe so, but it takes some courage to say exactly what you mean, while > any fool can play the smartass and leave people scratching their heads > before collectively ignoring him. It's known as the Usenet club effect. They hide out in specialized little niches, bouncing their prejudice and snobbery and supposed expertise off one another while collectively defending against any "interloper" who doesn't see things exactly the way they do. Some of these forums would be far more interesting were it not for people like them continually dominating the conversation but these a.sholes are everywhere, just like in real life. Don't take stupid remarks personally. Allow it to reflect upon those who offered them, like that pedantic little moron who is attempting to get your attention right now.
whizbang - 22 Mar 2005 05:18 GMT > > ... I don't understand the need for writing anything on > > a print. ... order ... numbered ... archivally ... numbered correspondingly [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com > psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ This from the guy who admits to writing "with a Sharpie" on the back of his test prints???
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