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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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a bit of encouragement from Ilford

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Chris Ellinger - 11 Mar 2005 16:37 GMT
http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150
bob - 11 Mar 2005 16:54 GMT
> http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150

I like the bit about the glass plates.

Bob
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 11 Mar 2005 21:48 GMT
> > http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150
>
>   I like the bit about the glass plates.

   Also from Kodak. Their new X-RAY films are now 800 speed.
Perhaps we will be seeing more of the new technology, higher
speed films hitting the market. You'd think Agfa would be
first, they hold the patents.                             Dan
Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Mar 2005 03:08 GMT
> http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150
in which

Phil Harris, spokesman for Ilford is quoted:

 "Black-and-white has been declining by 5-7% per year, and
  last year it declined by 20-30%. I think next year it will
  be the same"

50-60% in two years - yikes, no wonder they cut the work force in
half.  They need to cut it in half again, quick.

 "then the decline will flatten out as we reach
  the core market of fine art, student and specialist
  black-and-white photographers."

In my [too many] years at Booz-Allen I saw clients hanging
many, many such graphs up on the wall. They are so common
in sick companies that they are an inside joke: "Yeah, the
CFO brought a hockey stick to the meeting".

Typically the company is going down hill at [some large number]
/year for 2[or more] years, and the management projects
that in the space of a  month or so this graph will flatten
out, and maybe go up at 25%/year.  Today's date is invariably
at the heel of the hockey stick.  Sometimes the heel is scheduled
for 'next year' if management has decided to show they are
taking a 'long hard look at projections'.

This turn-around just -doesn't- happen.  A company and market
in decline have momentum and don't turn the corner
on a dime.  We are not talking the price of shares, we
are talking about people:  the owners, employees, managers,
distributors, manufacturers' reps, retail outlets and finally
the customers.  Employees will be leaving at the rate of 9
a month if the decline is 2.5%/mo.  Soon the people remaining
are there because they are unemployable.

Ilford should be asking themselves 'can we be in the black
with 20/10/5% of the business we have now?'  If the answer
is yes, they should immediately downsize to that projection
and start showing profit.  Get rid of all the employees the
company would be stuck with if they depended on attrition.

 "The current [product] list was [pared down] by the
  receivers for maximum efficiency, so we will
  reintroduce old [product lines].  For example, we are the
  only company in the world that can coat glass plates,
  so while it would not be a big part of our business,
  we want to consider it. We are committed to black-and-white."

Someone with a head on their shoulders did what was necessary
to keep Ilford alive with a swift amputation and the present
management, who bought the company from the receivers, are
going to turn right round and re-introduce a slew of
unprofitable products.  Re-attach an already amputated
gangrenous limbs, so to speak.

 "We plan to be the last man standing in
  black-and-white imaging."

Wonderful: "We don't care if this is going to a be viable
business or not, we will stand our ground."  -- Charge of
the Light Brigade -- There is nothing the British like
better than a noble failure.

The management may as well take 'Roll on Death'
as the company motto.

                        *           *            *

A company's commitment to a market is irrelevant.  Only
the customers' commitment counts.

If Ilford is to be saved, only _WE_ can do it.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Jan T - 12 Mar 2005 08:04 GMT
wich only shows this kind of news has two interpretations: the optimistic
and the pessimistic...

I stick to the first one; the more people turn their backs, the worse it wil
get. And turning your back preventively could prove a regrettable choice. If
I'm wrong, I can still swith over later (at far better conditions!).

Jan

| > http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150
| in which
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
|
| If Ilford is to be saved, only _WE_ can do it.
Nick Zentena - 12 Mar 2005 12:13 GMT
>  "The current [product] list was [pared down] by the
>   receivers for maximum efficiency, so we will
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> unprofitable products.  Re-attach an already amputated
> gangrenous limbs, so to speak.

 Unprofitable under the old system. The normal thing with Chapter
11/insolvency/CCA [fill in your local form of protection] is that companies
exit with greatly reduced debt. Renogiated employee and supplier contracts.

    Nick
Jean-David Beyer - 12 Mar 2005 13:00 GMT
>> "The current [product] list was [pared down] by the
>>  receivers for maximum efficiency, so we will
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 11/insolvency/CCA [fill in your local form of protection] is that companies
> exit with greatly reduced debt. Renogiated employee and supplier contracts.

Employees can negotiate down only so far: they cannot realistically go
below the living wage, and most will not go below what they can get
working at something else. Already, in USA, employees at places like
WalMart are paid so little (US$8.50/hour) that they qualify for
food-stamps and wellfare. I.e., the community is subsidizing those
companies. For a two-hundred-employee Wal-Mart store, the government is
spending $108,000 a year for children's health care; $125,000 a year in
tax credits and deductions for low-income families; and $42,000 a year in
housing assistance. A report estimates that a two-hundred-employee
Wal-Mart store costs federal taxpayers $420,000 a year, or about $2,103
per Wal-Mart employee.

Similarly, suppliers of silver are unlikely to reduce their prices below
what other users and hoarders of silver are willing to pay. Miners will
not mine the stuff if it costs more to produce than what they can sell it
for. Most silver is not mined directly. Silver and gold are typically
byproducts of copper refining, so unless the price of copper goes up
appreciably, silver will not become more plentiful.

Signature

  .~.  Jean-David Beyer          Registered Linux User 85642.
  /V\  PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A         Registered Machine   241939.
 /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
 ^^-^^ 07:45:00 up 51 days, 16:02, 3 users, load average: 4.20, 4.21, 4.18

Nick Zentena - 12 Mar 2005 13:12 GMT
> Employees can negotiate down only so far: they cannot realistically go
> below the living wage, and most will not go below what they can get
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> byproducts of copper refining, so unless the price of copper goes up
> appreciably, silver will not become more plentiful.

 None of that means Ilford didn't manage to get better deals. Changes in
work rules? Changes in supplier agreements with regard to payment. Better
volume discounts? Lower minimum orders. Quicker turn arounds. You don't need
to lower wages/prices to make life easier on a company.

  Nick
John Bartley - 12 Mar 2005 15:32 GMT
> Most silver is not mined directly. Silver and gold are typically
> byproducts of copper refining

A serious question : is the above statement really accurate? I know that
gold, silver and copper are found in the same areas, can be found in the
same mines and can be separated during processing but didn't know that
one was a by-product of processing the other. I did spend a couple of
years as a contract gold miner in Northern Ontario and saw (a LOT) of
gold without seeing copper or silver in the same two mines that I worked in.

It's a bit off topic I know, but I'm curious....

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Mar 2005 16:06 GMT
> Jean-David Beyer wrote:
> > Most silver is not mined directly. Silver and gold are typically
> > byproducts of copper refining
> A serious question : is the above statement really accurate?

Yes for silver, IHNI for gold.  I don't know about 'most'.

> I did spend a couple of years as a contract gold miner in Northern
> Ontario and saw (a LOT) of gold without seeing copper or silver

There was probably some copper and silver (and lead (and uranium
(and palladium (and platinum (and mercury (and arsenic (and...))))))) in
the gold.  I don't know of anyone refining gold to get at the
copper, though.  TTBOMK gold mining goes after ore rich in gold
and copper mining after ore rich in copper, sorta makes sense.

Gold is a _by product_ of copper mining.  Silver also, but there
may be enough silver in the copper ore to make it a viable source.
The waste from copper refining is a cornucopia of metals one would
rather stay away from.

The same is true of nickel, only more so.

And that's probably more than I know about the subject.

As usual: Google Knows.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Derek Gee - 13 Mar 2005 19:31 GMT
> http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150

What's the deal with US subsidiary?  Why is it still for sale?  Who's going
to distribute Ilford products in the US if not Ilford?

Derek
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Mar 2005 20:26 GMT
> What's the deal with US subsidiary?  Why is it still for sale?  Who's going
> to distribute Ilford products in the US if not Ilford?

Distribute to who?

There aren't a whole lot of mom-and-pop stores any more,
just big chains and big web/mail/phone retailers.  These
folks do their own distribution already.  They deal with
the manufacturer's rep, issue PO's to and get shipments
[by the container] from the factory. What's left of
the medium-size photo stores are accommodated either by  
B&H & Co. or via the rep's office and drop shipped merchandise
from UK distribution.

Ilford's advertising (count the channels on one hand) transfers
from the UK with no rewrite -- don't even have to worry about
the occasional 'colour' in the ad copy now that they are
strictly B&W.

Good move, I say.  

Ilford has to think about _survival_ for the next 5 years.
The business viewpoint gets pretty ruthless.

TTTH there are companies that got rich by taking an increasing
share of declining market.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Gregory Blank - 14 Mar 2005 01:38 GMT

> Distribute to who?
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> TTTH there are companies that got rich by taking an increasing
> share of declining market.

Unique Photo is the largest distributer of Ilford Product in the
USA, yes bigger than B&H.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

A.Lee - 13 Mar 2005 20:37 GMT
> http://db.riskwaters.com/public/showPage.html?page=211150

There is no mention of the Cibachrome business there - does anyone know if
that side has been bought?
The Co. I work for buys a lot of paper from them.
Ta
Alan.

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http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North Midlands.

 
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