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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2005

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Oriental Seagull having problems?

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Frank Pittel - 23 Feb 2005 13:47 GMT
I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

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Weasel - 23 Feb 2005 17:52 GMT
> I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

Wouldn't that be a good thing?  I mean, if demand is high enough they have
problems meeting it, then it's still profitable to make the product.
Frank Pittel - 23 Feb 2005 19:44 GMT
: > I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: > 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
: > Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

: Wouldn't that be a good thing?  I mean, if demand is high enough they have
: problems meeting it, then it's still profitable to make the product.

It could also mean that they stopped making the stuff.

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Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Feb 2005 21:27 GMT
> Wouldn't that be a good thing?  I mean, if demand is high enough they have
> problems meeting it, then it's still profitable to make the product.

Er, no.  If they loose money on every one they sell
they can't make it up in volume.

If they raised the price so as to make money then the demand might
disappear as the paper is now overpriced.

If Oriental can't decide to continue the business or not then they may just
be keeping the company ticking over.  Limping along is _not_ considered
good business practice.

This scenario is common in privately owned companies when the owner
dies and the offspring haven't yet decided what to do with the company.

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

John - 23 Feb 2005 20:54 GMT
>I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
>11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
>Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

    Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.

    4 more years of having the dollars value slide into the toilet
and we're not going to be importing anything except Chinese !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Frank Pittel - 23 Feb 2005 21:05 GMT
: >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
: >Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

:         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
: a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.

?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.
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Tom Phillips - 23 Feb 2005 22:31 GMT
> : >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
> : >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> :         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
> : a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.

I believe all US retail stock comes through Oriental
USA. Freestyle just got a new shipment.

> ?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
> it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.

Prices are better at Freestyle (freestylephoto.biz)
Shipping is higher but still ends up a lower price.
They have a complete stock.

There have been some delays in stock availability but
no one I've talked to says there is a supply problem.
Oriental G is now called FG (for fiber?) and apparently
Oriental has made some changes to their VC emulsions,
though not to the graded Seagull.

If there was a known supply problem with Oriental I'd
probably be trying the kentmere paper also available
from freestyle
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 00:03 GMT
: > : >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: > : >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: > :         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
: > : a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.

: I believe all US retail stock comes through Oriental
: USA. Freestyle just got a new shipment.

Thanks for the word on Freestyle getting a shipment. I just put in an
order for a couple of boxes.

: > ?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
: > it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.

: Prices are better at Freestyle (freestylephoto.biz)
: Shipping is higher but still ends up a lower price.
: They have a complete stock.

Living in the Chicago area I tend to go to Calumet for a lot
of things even though I can get it cheaper else where. They have
the advantage of being close, having a good stock, reasonable prices
and when I can't go in person lightning fast delivery. I've put in
orders with them in the afternoon one day and have recieved it the next!!

: There have been some delays in stock availability but
: no one I've talked to says there is a supply problem.
: Oriental G is now called FG (for fiber?) and apparently
: Oriental has made some changes to their VC emulsions,
: though not to the graded Seagull.

The change in name makes some sense since they seem to have
added RC paper to their product line. I hope the changes are
minor. I've gotten very comfortable with their paper and I like
it. Those that know me know I don't take to change very well.

: If there was a known supply problem with Oriental I'd
: probably be trying the kentmere paper also available
: from freestyle

I may give the Kentmere paper a try. I'm also thinking of giving Berger
paper another try.
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Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:50 GMT
> : > : >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
> : > : >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks for the word on Freestyle getting a shipment. I just put in an
> order for a couple of boxes.

Freestyle's shipping is weird. They charge a minimum
$5, then $6 per $100 after the first $100 order. Most
other places charge by the weight (meaning shipping
is usually gets cheaper the more you order/buy dollar
wise. I've complained to Freestyle about this, since
by charging more for ordering more dollar wise they
discourage larger orders. So with Freestyle I typically
order only what I need rather than stocking up. But
even with bigger ticket items (16x20 Seagull @ $160)
I save over Calumet.

> : > ?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
> : > it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and when I can't go in person lightning fast delivery. I've put in
> orders with them in the afternoon one day and have recieved it the next!!

Calumet charges between $10-$23 more per box of Seagull
but with no shipping probably worth it.

> : There have been some delays in stock availability but
> : no one I've talked to says there is a supply problem.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> added RC paper to their product line. I hope the changes are
> minor.

The word is it's minor, but I don't use VC Oriental anyway...

> I've gotten very comfortable with their paper and I like
> it. Those that know me know I don't take to change very well.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> -------------------
> fwp@deepthought.com
Frank Pittel - 25 Feb 2005 16:33 GMT
: > : > : >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: > : > : >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: > Thanks for the word on Freestyle getting a shipment. I just put in an
: > order for a couple of boxes.

: Freestyle's shipping is weird. They charge a minimum
: $5, then $6 per $100 after the first $100 order. Most
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: even with bigger ticket items (16x20 Seagull @ $160)
: I save over Calumet.

: > : > ?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
: > : > it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
: > and when I can't go in person lightning fast delivery. I've put in
: > orders with them in the afternoon one day and have recieved it the next!!

: Calumet charges between $10-$23 more per box of Seagull
: but with no shipping probably worth it.

: > : There have been some delays in stock availability but
: > : no one I've talked to says there is a supply problem.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: > added RC paper to their product line. I hope the changes are
: > minor.

: The word is it's minor, but I don't use VC Oriental anyway...

: > I've gotten very comfortable with their paper and I like
: > it. Those that know me know I don't take to change very well.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: > -------------------
: > fwp@deepthought.com

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Frank Pittel - 25 Feb 2005 17:05 GMT
Sorry about that. I managed to post this without intending to.
As it turns out I've managed to order things from them in the
past and have bookmarked them for future reference.

I'm still struggling on whether or not to use graded or VC paper.
I wouldn't mind paying extra for the graded paper if there is a
quality<SP?> difference between graded and VC. Can I ask why you
use graded paper?

: : > : > : >I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: : > : > : >11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: : > Thanks for the word on Freestyle getting a shipment. I just put in an
: : > order for a couple of boxes.

: : Freestyle's shipping is weird. They charge a minimum
: : $5, then $6 per $100 after the first $100 order. Most
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: : even with bigger ticket items (16x20 Seagull @ $160)
: : I save over Calumet.

: : > : > ?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
: : > : > it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
: : > and when I can't go in person lightning fast delivery. I've put in
: : > orders with them in the afternoon one day and have recieved it the next!!

: : Calumet charges between $10-$23 more per box of Seagull
: : but with no shipping probably worth it.

: : > : There have been some delays in stock availability but
: : > : no one I've talked to says there is a supply problem.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: : > added RC paper to their product line. I hope the changes are
: : > minor.

: : The word is it's minor, but I don't use VC Oriental anyway...

: : > I've gotten very comfortable with their paper and I like
: : > it. Those that know me know I don't take to change very well.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: : > -------------------
: : > fwp@deepthought.com

: Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
: -------------------
: fwp@deepthought.com

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Tom Phillips - 25 Feb 2005 21:10 GMT
> I'm still struggling on whether or not to use graded or VC paper.
> I wouldn't mind paying extra for the graded paper if there is a
> quality<SP?> difference between graded and VC. Can I ask why you
> use graded paper?

I don't know of any quality difference; I'm not the person
to ask. VC papers first became popular with students, as I
recall, because overall it's cheaper than buying 2-3 grades
of the same paper. It also works well because students are
often less likely to get a properly exposed negative that
prints adequately on a specific grade. But VC has has other
creative possibilites and also became popular for that.

I use graded mainly because I don't have creative issues
with negative exposure/densities (unless of course I make
a mistake.) Also, I don't like dealing with the filters and
my older cold light doesn't accommodate VC anyway. All my
negatives are exposed and developed so as to print on a
specific grade of paper with a full tonal range; I rarely
need go to a different grade. I also have little need for
print controls via splitting contrast grades in the same
print. I consider that a sign of faulty craft (i.e., not
knowing how to get a properly exposed negative.) Ideally,
if you know how to obtain a good negative through exposure
and development that will print with both good shadow and
highlight detail on a certain paper grade, you also know
how you'll be printing that negative when you make it. If
fine tuning is necessary I prefer to use other available
printing controls.

On the other hand maybe I'm just an old fart who isn't keen
on changing his ways :)
Frank Pittel - 26 Feb 2005 00:30 GMT
: > I'm still struggling on whether or not to use graded or VC paper.
: > I wouldn't mind paying extra for the graded paper if there is a
: > quality<SP?> difference between graded and VC. Can I ask why you
: > use graded paper?

: I don't know of any quality difference; I'm not the person
: to ask. VC papers first became popular with students, as I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: prints adequately on a specific grade. But VC has has other
: creative possibilites and also became popular for that.

: I use graded mainly because I don't have creative issues
: with negative exposure/densities (unless of course I make
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: fine tuning is necessary I prefer to use other available
: printing controls.

: On the other hand maybe I'm just an old fart who isn't keen
: on changing his ways :)

Like you I generally print with a single paper grade. Although in
theory my process is tuned for grade 2 I find that I prefer grade 3.

There are of course the exceptions were I screw up and have to use
a high or lower grade. There are times that I will use multiple
filters when printing. The most common is when dealing with clouds.
I will make the print with a grade 3 filter and then burn in the clouds
with a low grade such as 0.
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Tom Phillips - 26 Feb 2005 02:55 GMT
> : > I'm still struggling on whether or not to use graded or VC paper.
> : > I wouldn't mind paying extra for the graded paper if there is a
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Like you I generally print with a single paper grade. Although in
> theory my process is tuned for grade 2 I find that I prefer grade 3.

Grade 2 and sometime 3 is all I ever need. Once
in a blue moon I've used a G4. I have a old box
of grade 5. Never used a single sheet. I think once
I may have used a grade 1. OTOH G2 can be developed
to a grade 1 if needed.

> There are of course the exceptions were I screw up and have to use
> a high or lower grade. There are times that I will use multiple
> filters when printing. The most common is when dealing with clouds.
> I will make the print with a grade 3 filter and then burn in the clouds
> with a low grade such as 0.

Split development can be an effective printing control
(selectol+dektol.) Or intensifying the negative (very
carefully) or bleaching a print either locally or
wholly. Sometimes I'll add orthozite to dektol in
varying amounts. I'm of the opinion that the practice
of fine art printing controls is more useful artistically
than the convenience of VC papers.
Gregory Blank - 26 Feb 2005 03:22 GMT
> On the other hand maybe I'm just an old fart who isn't keen
> on changing his ways :)

LOL ; That "must" be the case. :-)

Of course when one learns how to make negatives that
print the way one wants them to on one  specific grade
why change!!!

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Gregory Blank - 25 Feb 2005 22:40 GMT
> Sorry about that. I managed to post this without intending to.
> As it turns out I've managed to order things from them in the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> quality<SP?> difference between graded and VC. Can I ask why you
> use graded paper?

I'll be interested in Tom's reply too. Never the less the thing I would
say about graded paper is that the graded papers I have seen (Forte)
have  much more consistent plots emulsion to emulsion than VC papers for
a given grade. There is some leeway between grades before one becomes
the higher or the lower adjacent grade.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 25 Feb 2005 23:31 GMT
> > Sorry about that. I managed to post this without intending to.
> > As it turns out I've managed to order things from them in the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> a given grade. There is some leeway between grades before one becomes
> the higher or the lower adjacent grade.

I did reply, maybe your newsfeed missed it.

I'd have to agree on the consistency of graded papers.
I've never used enough VC to comment though.
yuji - 26 Feb 2005 14:47 GMT
Acording to the web site of Oriental in Japanese,Oriental stopped t
make Oriental G in 2003,and began to make Oriental GF in 2003.
There is no supply problem , but there is no retail and can buy the
diretly from the web site in japan.I cannot buy them even in th
Japan's biggest camera shop.
http://www.cybergraphics.co.jp/
For exanple,The price of 100 sheets of VC-FB II is 5019Yen,about 50 u
dollar.
Here is a data sheet of Oriental GF,in japanese
http://www.cybergraphics.co.jp/products/nsg_gf/data/nsg-gf.pdf
Here is a product information of Oriental G,even though there is n
stock of
Oriental G.Oriental direct is not selling Oriental G.
http://www.cybergraphics.co.jp/english/products/nsg_g/index.htm

--
yuji
John - 24 Feb 2005 00:13 GMT
>:         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
>: a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.
>
>?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
>it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.

    I guess that's what I get for using their search engine ;>(
Weird. I put in Oriental and all it showed was the warm-toned VC. I've
always liked Calumet but I find their website to be very poor. It's
slow, cumbersome and obviously their search utility doesn't work very
well.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 00:56 GMT
: >:         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
: >: a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.
: >
: >?? My primary source for the Oriental Seagull is Calumet and they still have
: >it listed on their website. they just show as beinging out of stock.

:         I guess that's what I get for using their search engine ;>(
: Weird. I put in Oriental and all it showed was the warm-toned VC. I've
: always liked Calumet but I find their website to be very poor. It's
: slow, cumbersome and obviously their search utility doesn't work very
: well.

I agree that their search engine can be hit or miss sometimes. If you expect
to deal with Calumet you may want to drop them an Email and tell them
about the probelm that you had with their search engine.

Over the years of dealing with Calumet I've found them to be very responsive
to customers. A perfect example of that is when about a year ago after myself
and others kept asking them to open on saturday, they started opening on
saturdays.

They had always looked at their customer base as being professional
photographers and didn't see any benefit in being open on saturday. They were
stunned at the volume of business they're doind on saturday.

I have no interest in Calumet other then being a happy customer of theirs.
Unlike a growing number of companies they take making and keeping customers
happy.
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Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 01:25 GMT

> I have no interest in Calumet other then being a happy customer of theirs.
> Unlike a growing number of companies they take making and keeping customers
> happy.

Stop it. I would have been happy too if I hadn't been shabbley treated
prior to christmas, Calumet has a lot of great stuff. But after 18 years
of being their happy customer I really have to say how disappointed
I was.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 01:52 GMT
:  
: > I have no interest in Calumet other then being a happy customer of theirs.
: > Unlike a growing number of companies they take making and keeping customers
: > happy.

: Stop it. I would have been happy too if I hadn't been shabbley treated
: prior to christmas, Calumet has a lot of great stuff. But after 18 years
: of being their happy customer I really have to say how disappointed
: I was.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems with their service. While I haven't
been dealing with them for 18 years I've had them bend over backwards for
me over and over again.
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Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 03:11 GMT
> I've had them bend over backwards for
> me over and over again.

LOL - After what they tried to do to me they deserve it.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 09:00 GMT
> > I have no interest in Calumet other then being a happy customer of theirs.
> > Unlike a growing number of companies they take making and keeping customers
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of being their happy customer I really have to say how disappointed
> I was.

Going back 20 years for me. I'm not as happy with
Calumet as I used to be. Some of the old timers are
still around and very good at customer relations
and service. OTOH, I've found freestyle to give
excellent customer service whenever I've had a problem,
even to the point of telling the shipper to get their
act together when Fed Ex sat on my order scheduled
for delivery.
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:54 GMT
> >:         Seeing that Calumet no longer has the FB listed, I'd say it's
> >: a good possibility that they are no longer importing into the US.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> slow, cumbersome and obviously their search utility doesn't work very
> well.

Poor? It downright sucks ;) Whoever they paid to design
it should give them a refund for lost business!
deathskunk - 23 Feb 2005 20:56 GMT
where can i find this stuff in canada?

> I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?
Douglas - 23 Feb 2005 23:44 GMT
> where can i find this stuff in canada?

I haven't seen Oriental in Canada since it went away the first time. I don't
bother looking anymore I just order it from Freestyle or B&H or whoever.
Life is just too short to have to chase our Canadian stores to carry it.
Thank you Freestyle & B&H.

Douglas
Ottawa, Ontario

>> I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
>> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
>> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?
deathskunk - 24 Feb 2005 03:45 GMT
any idea what the duty is like?

>> where can i find this stuff in canada?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
>>> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?
Little Green Eyed Dragon - 24 Feb 2005 05:30 GMT
> any idea what the duty is like?

Brown , oblong and stinky.
Douglas - 24 Feb 2005 13:21 GMT
> any idea what the duty is like?

I don't think there is any duty on photographic paper. I've only been
charged GST without PST. Use USPS parcel or airmail to ship rather than one
of the couriers. All of the courier companies charge very large brokerage
fee to clear the parcel through customs. Canada Post, by contrast, charges a
flat $5 to clear customs.

Douglas

>>> where can i find this stuff in canada?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>>> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
>>>> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?
deathskunk - 24 Feb 2005 16:07 GMT
whats the big thing with seagull?  in your opinion?

> I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
> 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
> Oriental is having problems meeting demand?
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 18:28 GMT
: whats the big thing with seagull?  in your opinion?

I like the tonal range of the paper as well richness of the blacks.

: > I've been going to my normal haunts looking for Oriental Seagull
: > 11x14 Fiber paper. They are all out of the stuff. Does anyone know if
: > Oriental is having problems meeting demand?

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