Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2005
Drying FB Paper
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Neal - 23 Feb 2005 05:57 GMT I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my prints for a pretty good chunk, and I'll be shipping him the print on 11x14 fibre paper, which I have never used.
How do you dry your fibre prints? We've agreed that he will get it mounted and framed when it arrives to cut on shipping cost (to hawaii).
Thanks for any suggestions.
Richard Knoppow - 23 Feb 2005 07:11 GMT > I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want > onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for any suggestions. The traditional method is to dry the print emulsion side down on a screen. Modern fiberglass window screens work fine. The idea is that the screen keeps the emulsion side from drying out too fast and causing curl. Curl happens anyway but is probably not as severe. Another traditional method is photo blotters. These used to come in books and rolls with an intermediate sheet of water proof paper. The idea is the same as the screens, to allow the drying to happen from the support side first. Blotters have the disadvantage of being slow and posing the risk of contamination. A method I've found works well is to hang the prints using clothes pins. One at each side at the top, two more at the bottom corners as weights. The disadvantage is that the pins leave marks. If you are going to mount the prints you will probably be trimming the edges off anyway. Heated print dryers were used for commercial and photofinishing work but are not good for the emulsion or backing. Let the prints dry slowly. Flattening is best done in a dry mounting press even if you don't dry mount. The technique is to place the print on a sheet of two of thick Kraft or construction paper which has already been dried out in the press. Put a sheet of release tissue over the emulsion side and another couple of sheets of paper over this as a cussion. Dry in the press at around 190F or less for a minute or two under light pressure. Then place the entire sandwich of print, paper, and release tissue under a flat weight to cool for a few minutes. The prints will be flat and will not curl. The idea of the release tissue is again to prevent the emulsion side from drying out. Prints which are to have a very glossy surface must be dried on ferrotype plates. This is a process which requires some care and is usful only for this purpose. If you are interested in this I will describe the procedure I've found reasonably successful.
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 23 Feb 2005 11:02 GMT > How do you dry your fibre prints? > > Thanks for any suggestions. I use a blotter stack. The stack begins with a corrugated board at bottom with a blotter placed on top then prints, another blotter and board, all topped off with a few books or other weights. The stack can be built as high as you like. Prints are dry and ready to mount out of the stack. Tuck it easily away when not in use. Likely you could put one togeather for under $5. I'll provide more detail if you're interested. Dan
David Nebenzahl - 23 Feb 2005 21:07 GMT On 2/23/2005 3:02 AM dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:
>> How do you dry your fibre prints? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > put one togeather for under $5. I'll provide more > detail if you're interested. Just one thing--you don't re-use the blotters too many times, do you? Seems like a big risk of contamination otherwise (from residual chemistry in the prints).
 Signature "I know I will go to hell, because I pardoned Richard Nixon."
- Former President Gerald Ford to his golf partners, as related by the late Hunter S. Thompson
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 23 Feb 2005 22:47 GMT > Just one thing--you don't re-use the blotters > too many times, do you? Seems like a big risk of > contamination otherwise (from residual chemistry > in the prints). Of course one must be sure, or at least satisfied, that all that can be done has been done to remove all possible of the chemistry prior to drying. After spongeing I pre-dry on a metal grid allowing some of the H2O molecules to escape. While still damp and quite flexable they are placed in the stack. The blotters are of a non-woven hydrophobic material which can be found at any fabric shop. They'll likely clean as do the screens some use. My working premise is, a CLEAN print transfers no chemistry. I could argue that the use of blotters must be part of any archival sequence. After all else has been done prior to drying, the blotter may coax some minute additional chemistry from the print. One might even think of using a blotter stack as a sort of post wash HCA. Dan
David Nebenzahl - 23 Feb 2005 23:53 GMT On 2/23/2005 2:47 PM dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus:
>> Just one thing--you don't re-use the blotters >> too many times, do you? Seems like a big risk of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > blotters are of a non-woven hydrophobic material > which can be found at any fabric shop. That's cool--washable, reuseable blotters. Good idea.
 Signature "I know I will go to hell, because I pardoned Richard Nixon."
- Former President Gerald Ford to his golf partners, as related by the late Hunter S. Thompson
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 24 Feb 2005 23:08 GMT > On 2/23/2005 2:47 PM dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That's cool--washable, reuseable blotters. Good idea. I did'nt mean to imply that hypo eliminator be used in the quest to "remove all possible of the chemistry". That non-woven hydrophobic fabric is very light weight and very low cost. It could be tossed after a short use. I'll be checking out a few varieties of the material and how to quickly cut it to size. I've found that polypropylene is the most hydrophobic. For now I've polyester. Dan
Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 01:19 GMT >After all else has been done prior to drying, the blotter may coax some > minute additional chemistry from the print. Yes and over time those minute amounts contaminate the prints unless one chucks the blotter.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Feb 2005 20:18 GMT >>After all else has been done prior to drying, the blotter may coax some >> minute additional chemistry from the print. > >Yes and over time those minute amounts contaminate the prints >unless one chucks the blotter. feb2405 from Lloyd Erlick,
Chuck them now, before you use them, and they will never, ever contaminate your prints. In fact, chuck them before you buy them, and they will be even better.
Chuck your tongs, gloves and print drying screens, too. Don't chuck the squeegee, though, it's still good for cleaning the sink.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 20:24 GMT > feb2405 from Lloyd Erlick, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > regards, > --le I never use a blotter, so there's no blot on my record or my prints :-)
& Yes that's what my squeegee gets used for,...not prints.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Feb 2005 21:00 GMT ...
>I never use a blotter, so there's no blot on my record >or my prints :-) > >& Yes that's what my squeegee gets used for,...not prints. feb2405 from Lloyd Erlick,
Do you do windows??
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 21:34 GMT > Do you do windows?? LOL ,.... no I prefer Mac's :-)
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Feb 2005 21:41 GMT >> Do you do windows?? > >LOL ,.... no I prefer Mac's :-) ... no hamburgers in the darkroom ...
Andrew Price - 24 Feb 2005 20:40 GMT [---]
>Chuck them now, before you use them, and they will >never, ever contaminate your prints. In fact, chuck [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Don't chuck the squeegee, though, it's still good for >cleaning the sink. I know I've said this before, but I cannot but recommend the technical article on your website on that subject. The phrase:
>Drying Screens Get Out of Town If You Know What's Good for You, and >Take Squeegee With You, Too! still makes me crack up, every time I read it !
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Feb 2005 21:03 GMT >[---] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >still makes me crack up, every time I read it ! feb2405 from Lloyd Erlick,
Thanks, that's the first time I've seen that quoted!
I was a little flippant there, I guess. Actually, drying screens would make great sink scrubbers if a little piece of the mesh is cut out and crumpled up in the hands.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Feb 2005 00:50 GMT > I was a little flippant there, I guess. Actually, > drying screens would make great sink scrubbers if a > little piece of the mesh is cut out and crumpled up in > the hands. Hey, I found out they fit in these rails in my house's window frames. Great for keeping bugs out in the summer...
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 24 Feb 2005 23:46 GMT I can see only one way a hydrophobic blotter material could coax any chemistry from a pre-screen dried but still damp, flexable print; by contact transfer at the very surface of the two materials.
If a print is entirely air dried, say on a screen, then those minute amounts of chemistry remain in and on the surface of the print. Would it not be better they be wisked away with a blotter. An easily washable and/or disposable blotter, I'd think, would contribute to the production of archival results.
Mr. Erlick in a recent post pointed us to information dealing with the conservation of valueable papers. IIRC, blotters were used in each and every case. Dan
Steven Kefford - 23 Feb 2005 23:59 GMT > On 2/23/2005 3:02 AM dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus: ...
> Just one thing--you don't re-use the blotters too many times, do you? > Seems like a big risk of contamination otherwise (from residual > chemistry in the prints). If you have residual chemistry in the print, then it has not been washed sufficiently, and the print is no good, so you might as well ditch it.
Steve
David Nebenzahl - 24 Feb 2005 01:18 GMT On 2/23/2005 4:00 PM Steven spake thus:
>> On 2/23/2005 3:02 AM dan.c.quinn@att.net spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you have residual chemistry in the print, then it has not been washed > sufficiently, and the print is no good, so you might as well ditch it. Well, of course; what I was getting at was the possibility that residual chemistry can be absorbed by a blotter and accumulate over time, so that eventually you have a *lot* of junk which can transfer back to prints, even if the prints have been reasonably well washed.
 Signature "I know I will go to hell, because I pardoned Richard Nixon."
- Former President Gerald Ford to his golf partners, as related by the late Hunter S. Thompson
jjs - 24 Feb 2005 02:00 GMT > Well, of course; what I was getting at was the possibility that residual > chemistry can be absorbed by a blotter and accumulate over time, so that > eventually you have a *lot* of junk which can transfer back to prints, > even if the prints have been reasonably well washed. Air dry them on vinyl screen. Press them flat between archival paper layers in a book press. I have to believe you can find a book press.
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:28 GMT > > Well, of course; what I was getting at was the possibility that residual > > chemistry can be absorbed by a blotter and accumulate over time, so that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Air dry them on vinyl screen. Press them flat between archival paper layers > in a book press. I have to believe you can find a book press. Vinyl is not chemically inert, i.e., not an archival material.
David Nebenzahl - 24 Feb 2005 08:50 GMT On 2/24/2005 12:29 AM Tom Phillips spake thus:
>> > Well, of course; what I was getting at was the possibility that residual >> > chemistry can be absorbed by a blotter and accumulate over time, so that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vinyl is not chemically inert, i.e., not an archival material. Fiberglass, then? Certainly not aluminum ...
 Signature "I know I will go to hell, because I pardoned Richard Nixon."
- Former President Gerald Ford to his golf partners, as related by the late Hunter S. Thompson
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 09:16 GMT > On 2/24/2005 12:29 AM Tom Phillips spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fiberglass, then? Certainly not aluminum ... I believe mine are fiberglass.
Don't know of anyone who's ever used aluminum; I'd think it would corrode/rust eventually.
Gregory Blank - 23 Feb 2005 13:43 GMT > I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want > onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for any suggestions. I use a procedure a little different from mostly everyone else "nothing new on my part".
I dry them face up on a plastic screen, I do this because I had noticed on the onset some prints face down had screen marks in the emulsion. Maybe because I did not squeegee them? Anyway I have yet to see water drop marks from my doing drying face up probably because I very diligently wash my FB prints. They do curl a lot, but I flatten them in a dry mount press using a sheet of acid free board above and below the print using a press temperature of 200 degrees F.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 23 Feb 2005 22:37 GMT > > I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want > > onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > on the onset some prints face down had screen marks in the emulsion. > Maybe because I did not squeegee them? You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert (as far as drying anyway.) Drying screens should not leave impressions in the emulsion.
> Anyway I have yet to see > water drop marks from my doing drying face up probably because I very [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Gregory Blank - 23 Feb 2005 22:47 GMT > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert > (as far as drying anyway.) How do you figure that?
> Drying screens should not leave > impressions in the emulsion. No they shouldn't but it may have been a different screen set than the current nylon? screen I use now and what I am doing works so I ain't gonna fix it by putting the prints face down :-)
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 00:15 GMT : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert : > (as far as drying anyway.)
: How do you figure that?
: > Drying screens should not leave : > impressions in the emulsion.
: No they shouldn't but it may have been a different : screen set than the current nylon? screen I use now : and what I am doing works so I ain't gonna fix it by : putting the prints face down :-) I dry my fiber prints face down on screens from Calumet (zone VI) and when I remove the dry prints prints they have the screen pattern on them. It looks like the screen made indentations in the soft wet emulsion. I am of course carefull not to drag the wet print on the screens. I've also noticed that the with time the marks fade. I've always attributed it to the emulsion relaxing with time.
I'm sure that I'm all wet with what the screen pattern is and why it fades with time. All I know for sure is that the screen pattern is there when the prints first dry and after a while the screen patterns fade.
My biggest problem is when I get lint, dust, etc on the screens and I don't notice until the prints are dry and the junk from the screen is embedded in the emulsion of the print. I've ruined more prints then I care to think about that way.
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Gregory Blank - 24 Feb 2005 01:20 GMT > : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert > : > (as far as drying anyway.) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > embedded in the emulsion of the print. I've ruined more prints then I > care to think about that way. See given enough time you always find two people that will agree >:-D
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Frank Pittel - 24 Feb 2005 01:47 GMT : > : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert : > : > (as far as drying anyway.) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] : > embedded in the emulsion of the print. I've ruined more prints then I : > care to think about that way.
: See given enough time you always find two people that will agree >:-D
:-)  Signature
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
Lloyd Erlick - 24 Feb 2005 20:56 GMT feb2405 from Lloyd Erlick,
no longer sure who wrote: ...
>> My biggest problem is when I get lint, dust, etc on the screens and I >> don't notice until the prints are dry and the junk from the screen is >> embedded in the emulsion of the print. I've ruined more prints then I >> care to think about that way. ...
Yes, me too. That is one of the main reasons I scrapped my drying screens. Filthy things. I prefer nothing to touch my prints while they are wet.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Richard Knoppow - 24 Feb 2005 06:08 GMT > : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically > inert [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > prints then I > care to think about that way. I think what you are seeing is residual moisture where the screens were in contact with the print. The emulsion will be slightly swollen there. If this is the case it will shrink up again as the moisture reaches equibrium. The effect probably varies among papers due to the variations in the "hardness" of the emulsion, and will probably also vary depending on whether a hardening fixing bath is used or not since the hardening affects the amount by which the gelatin swells. Actually, this is its primary purpose.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:28 GMT > > : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically > > inert [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > swells. > Actually, this is its primary purpose. Sounds logical. However, it may also possibly depend on the fineness of the screen's pores, since this is not a phenomenon I ever noticed with my screens.
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:23 GMT > : > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert > : > (as far as drying anyway.) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > fades with time. All I know for sure is that the screen pattern is there > when the prints first dry and after a while the screen patterns fade. If the patterns disappear one might surmise the wet emulsion is being physically impressed when soft. But in 30 years I've never used screens that did this. The screens I made (from fiberglass I think, could be nylon) have a very thin, fine, and soft porous pattern and do not leave marks wet or dry.
> My biggest problem is when I get lint, dust, etc on the screens and I > don't notice until the prints are dry and the junk from the screen is > embedded in the emulsion of the print. I've ruined more prints then I > care to think about that way. My screens are layered in an enclosed rack with a covered top. Dust isn't much of a problem. I helps to wash the screens often, both to remove dust and any possible chemical contamination (from work prints, etc.)
Tom Phillips - 24 Feb 2005 08:23 GMT > > You're likely using a screen that is not chemically inert > > (as far as drying anyway.) > > How do you figure that? Not all screen materials are equal (yes?) and some might not be chemically inert; from experience I know some plastics at least are incompatible. I once used a plastic material screen to dry some RC prints and it reacted chemically, leaving a permanent pattern of the screen on the prints.
> > Drying screens should not leave > > impressions in the emulsion. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and what I am doing works so I ain't gonna fix it by > putting the prints face down :-) If it ain't broke don't fix is a fairly good maxim.
> LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank > > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, > or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918h PGG - 23 Feb 2005 13:49 GMT I simply hang the prints by clipping it at the corner with a binder clip. Leaves a little mark, but nothing that bothers me.
Regardless, how will your customer feel if you send him a unmounted, curled fiber print? Even if you use drying screens, blotters, etc, the print will still curl without dry-mounting it.
> I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want > onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks for any suggestions. Neal - 24 Feb 2005 01:47 GMT >I simply hang the prints by clipping it at the corner with a binder clip. >Leaves a little mark, but nothing that bothers me. > >Regardless, how will your customer feel if you send him a unmounted, >curled fiber print? Even if you use drying screens, blotters, etc, the >print will still curl without dry-mounting it. I'd wondered about that but assmed that shipping it in plastic sandwiched between stiff cardboard would not permit re-curling.
jjs - 24 Feb 2005 02:02 GMT On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:49:50 GMT, PGG
>Regardless, how will your customer feel if you send him a unmounted, >curled fiber print? Even if you use drying screens, blotters, etc, the >print will still curl without dry-mounting it. I don't know what kind of drying or paper you are using, but it is not truly a problem making flat, air-dried prints. Not at all.
bob - 23 Feb 2005 14:27 GMT > How do you dry your fibre prints? I dry mine face down on a screen overnight and then press them flat. 8x10 I just stick inside a large book. 11x14 I would probably lay flat on a table and press with something like laminated hardboard. Or maybe foamcore. Weighted with books.
If you let them continue to dry unweighted they will curl up.
You don't mention if you're familiar with FB paper or not. If not, then be sure to read about the somewhat different fixing and washing methods, too.
Bob
Lloyd Erlick - 23 Feb 2005 19:45 GMT >I am pretty handy in the darkroom in terms of getting the image I want >onto my nice easy RC paper, but I've agreed to sell someone one of my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks for any suggestions. feb2305 from Lloyd Erlick
I've got an article on my website about drying FB prints. It's under the 'technical' heading in the table of contents.
I like to handle a print in such a way that nothing touches the face/image area while it is wet. I decided the only way to be sure nothing has contaminated the print is to permit nothing to touch it while it is wet. Obviously certain things must touch it, like solutions and the tray, but I've worked out a working method that reduces it to the absolute minimum. That means no fingers, gloves, tongs, squeegee, etc. It also means no chemical exposure at all for skin, among other things.
I dry my prints by hanging them, and in place of a squeegee I sluice down my hanging prints with distilled water, both sides.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Feb 2005 21:38 GMT > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:57:09 GMT, Neal > > >How do you dry your fibre prints? > I like to handle a print in such a way that nothing > touches the face/image area while it is wet. Me, I'm a hedonistic philistine. I use an Arkay paper drier. Used paper dryers are available cheap.
I haven't had any problems in 40+ years of drying prints.
If you buy a used drier you may want to wash the canvas for peace of mind. Do it by hand in _cold_ water with Woolite (hair shampoo is a dandy Woolite substitute [wool is hair, right?], but don't use shampoo in the washing machine). The canvas will shrink if washed in hot water, why I don't know, it's been damp and hot for most of it's life.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
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