Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005
HP cosidering buying Kodak
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Frank Calidonna - 11 Feb 2005 14:13 GMT This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in printers would be to purchase Kodak. If they do I wonder what that will mean for their film business?
I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters. But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.
Frank Rome, NY
Frank Pittel - 11 Feb 2005 15:03 GMT Is HP considering the purchase or is the writer for the times speculating on what HP should do??
: This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. : One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in : printers would be to purchase Kodak. If they do I wonder what that will : mean for their film business?
: I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters. : But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.
: Frank Rome, NY
 Signature Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
John Walton - 11 Feb 2005 15:07 GMT They might as well pave over Rochester.
Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with HP. She was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and a disaster at strategic planning. Board member William Hewlett did everything to stop the Compaq acquistion, and as planned, it was a disaster.
Kodak has surprised me --- recovering as they have. I did hate to lose Technical Pan.
Jack
> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. > One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Frank Rome, NY Joe Makowiec - 11 Feb 2005 16:45 GMT > Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with > HP. She was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and > a disaster at strategic planning. I looked at her resume - background was entirely business/marketing. Maybe part of the problem at HP was culture clash with all the engineers? I'm certainly unimpressed with their products the past few years.
 Signature Joe Makowiec http://makowiec.org/ Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
bob - 11 Feb 2005 17:08 GMT >>Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with >>HP. She was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Maybe part of the problem at HP was culture clash with all the engineers? > I'm certainly unimpressed with their products the past few years. The Color Laserjet 4650 is pretty decent, especially considering the price. Of course you probably wouldn't want one in your darkroom. ;-)
Bob
David Nebenzahl - 11 Feb 2005 17:55 GMT On 2/11/2005 7:11 AM John Walton spake thus:
> They might as well pave over Rochester. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Kodak has surprised me --- recovering as they have. I did hate to lose > Technical Pan. Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's good to keep in mind that the company is not only about film/digital and photography. Far from it; Kodak is now one of the leading graphic arts imaging companies, meaning production printing from digital printing (not darkroom printing, but making many to thousands of copies) to CTP (computer-to-plate) technology used in conventional offset printing. So in the long run, they may not even need Tech Pan, perhaps not even Plus-X Professional, to survive.
>> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. >> One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters. >> But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.
 Signature Today's bullshit job description:
• Collaborate to produce operational procedures for the systems management of the production Information Technology infrastructure.
- from an actual job listing on Craigslist (http://www.craigslist.org)
jo.sto@bigpond.com - 11 Feb 2005 22:44 GMT > Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's good to keep in mind > that the company is not only about film/digital and photography. Far from it; [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > conventional offset printing. So in the long run, they may not even need Tech > Pan, perhaps not even Plus-X Professional, to survive. And Agfa was similar, and found that it could do quite well without the film division.
In the case of HP, as an extremely loyal customer of HP over 30 years, all I can say is that they've lost me. Their old slogan that was something like "innovative products of lasting value" is apparently so 20th century that they have gone from a maker of the absolute best products in some fields to just another marketing company. The last HP product I bought went into the bin real fast.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Feb 2005 01:45 GMT > In the case of HP, as an extremely loyal customer of HP over 30 years, > all I can say is that they've lost me. Their old slogan that was > something like "innovative products of lasting value" is apparently so > 20th century that they have gone from a maker of the absolute best > products in some fields to just another marketing company. The last HP > product I bought went into the bin real fast. The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975: "The success and prosperity of our company will be assured only if we offer our customers superior products that fill real needs and provide lasting value, and that are supported by a wide variety of useful services, both before and after sale."
Statement of Corporate Objectives. Hewlett-Packard
* * *
The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 49, c. 1999:
"This manual and any examples contained herein are provided as-is and are subject to change without notice. Except to the extent prohibited by law, Hewtett-Packard Company makes no express or implied warranty of any kind with regard to this manual and specifically disclaims the implied warranties and conditions of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose and Hewlett-Packard Company shall not be liable for any errors or for incidental or consequential damage in connection with the furnishing, performance or use of this manual and the examples herein."
* * *
The '25 is still going strong, though I had to open it up an put a bit of WD-40 on the on-off switch, it was getting a bit rough after 30 years of use but it works like new now.
The '49 died 1.5 years after purchase. It can not be fixed as the calculator is spot-welded shut and is replaced, not repaired. After the 1 year warranty you are SOoL.
* * *
The reader can draw his own conclusions regarding h/p's "success and prosperity". I wonder if Carly ever saw the original "statement of corporate objectives"?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Ken Nadvornick - 12 Feb 2005 06:14 GMT > The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > "success and prosperity". I wonder if Carly ever saw the > original "statement of corporate objectives"? Absolute bulls-eye...
Thanks for this,
Ken
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 12 Feb 2005 17:23 GMT feb1205 from Lloyd Erlick,
I took the liberty of emailing HP. I copied Nicholas' snips from their literature (but omitted personal identifiers).
I doubt there will be a response (see below for the material I placed into their communications form online, and below that for the 'confirmation' response I received -- "Although I cannot personally respond to your message due to the volume of messages I receive, I often pass along suggestions and observations to my colleagues ..." etc.)
My prediction is that my own spam and junk mail receipts will increase, because I gave them my real name and email address. --le
_________________________ feb1205 from Lloyd Erlick,
Hello HP,
Today I found the following in a darkroom forum I follow, and wondered if you had any thoughts regarding the sentiments expressed:
----------
> The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > * * *
> The reader can draw his own conclusions regarding h/p's > "success and prosperity". regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ ___________________________________________________ ------------------------
---------------------------------- Dear Valued Customer,
Your message is important to me. Although I cannot personally respond to your message due to the volume of messages I receive, I often pass along suggestions and observations to my colleagues throughout Hewlett-Packard. If action is required, I'll have someone follow up.
If you need help, other information, or wish to send an e-mail about particular HP products and services, please visit please visit our Contact HP page.
Sincerely,
Bob Wayman Interim Chief Executive Officer and Chief Financial Officer Hewlett-Packard Company
Richard Knoppow - 14 Feb 2005 01:56 GMT >> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's >> good to keep [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The last HP > product I bought went into the bin real fast. I worked for HP when it was run by Bill and Dave (who I never saw in person). At that time the philosophy was to make products only if they were innovative or were better than competing products. There were few "me too" products. One thing I observed is that as competition became greater the margin of performance got smaller. We considered the older products to be broken if they did not meet half specs. The later, more advanced stuff, often just barely made specs. Of course it was virtually a completely different company. At that time its products could be described as industrial and most customers were large businesses and government. Probably the first products aimed at a consumer market was the Model 31 hand held calculator. I am no longer familiar with the entire HP catalogue but would guess than most of the company's business is now done with consumers. I will have to try to find this story, it doesn't quite make sense to me but then business manipulations often don't.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
John Walton - 15 Feb 2005 13:37 GMT Hp is now HP and Agilent, with Agilent being the instrumentation side (and semiconductor products).
Agilent -- they are as difficult to deal with as ever. Tektronix on the other hand makes it a breeze. On one of my Tek orders a supervisor did a follow up call to make sure everything arrived OK.
> >> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's > >> good to keep [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > make sense to me but then business manipulations often > don't. RSD99 - 15 Feb 2005 17:59 GMT Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that the "old HP" that you worked for is now a totally different company.
Ms.CF "decided" to concentrate on the printer and computer business, and spun off the instrumentation business several years ago, I believe it is now called something like "Adgelent Technology" ... or some similar name. I also believe that the well regarded "Corporate Principles" that Hewlett and Packard established have also gone by the wayside ... at least for the remaining company that is now known as "H-P."
Oh ... by the way ... "voices from the past" ... remember the HP Service Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ?
> >> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's > >> good to keep [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 05:22 GMT > Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that > the "old HP" that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the HP Service > Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ? I worked at the Cahuenga center but left before the move to Fredonia. I was in the RF department and was the local spectrum analyser maven along with my supervisor Oscar Reimann Eventially I began to do field service on computerized systems. I left because of a family emergency and then found out I could have gotten an LOA. Oh, well, it was so long ago that it seems to have been a different life.
Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 05:26 GMT > Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that > the "old HP" that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the HP Service > Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ? I meant to add that in those days we did everything we could to please customers. The salesmen were all graduate engineers with experience in the kinds of businesses we sold to so they were good at helping customers get instruments that would be helpful to them. Anything that came into the service department left looking and working like a brand new instrument. At the time the philosophy was that it sold stuff and kept loyal customers. I used to see Norm Neeley once in a while. He would never remember me and would introduce himself as though we had never met.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
John - 15 Feb 2005 18:33 GMT > I meant to add that in those days we did everything we >could to please customers. What year was this ? I can tell you as someone who competes with HP (well, they aren't really competition anymore are they ?), this is NOT how business is done today !
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org
Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 08:04 GMT > > I meant to add that in those days we did everything we > >could to please customers. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org mid 1960s to mid 1970s. It is a completely different company now.
-- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
analyst - 19 Feb 2005 09:22 GMT *Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that the "old HP" that *you worked for is now a totally different company. * *Ms.CF "decided" to concentrate on the printer and computer business, and *spun off the instrumentation business several years ago, I believe it is *now called something like "Adgelent Technology" ...
----------------------------------------------X
Agilent
they have good products, but not as durable as instruments manufactured say 15 years ago under HP banner. Agilent's suppost is a joke, very bad one. They treat old customers like mugs. Still, competition is smaller each year, and we have to buy from Agilent, teeth grinding..
RSD99 - 19 Feb 2005 18:57 GMT Interesting ... and unfortunate.
FWIW: Both Richard and I worked in the superb support organization that Neely Enterprises established for The (original) Hewlett-Packard Company in Southern California ... many long years ago.
I'm sure that he is just as unhappy about the "changes" as I am.
> Agilent > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still, competition is smaller each year, and we have to buy from > Agilent, teeth grinding.. John - 11 Feb 2005 20:24 GMT >Board member William Hewlett did everything to stop the >Compaq acquistion, and as planned, it was a disaster. Perhaps you meant "as predicted" ? And one mans disaster is anothers opportunity. Just ask Michael Dell !
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email
John Walton - 12 Feb 2005 14:29 GMT From a friend who used to work there:
This is the story of a different kind. No melting CPUs, no screaming disc drives, just the kind of psychological torture that scars a man for life.
I had a 9:00 meeting with my Sales Rep. I needed to buy an entire new Series 70, the works. He said it'd take about an hour. Three hours later, we'd barely got the datacomm hardware down on paper, so he invited me downstairs to lunch.
This was my first experience in an HP cafeteria. Above the service counter was a menu which began...
MMU's (Main Meal Units)
00010A Burger. Includes sesame-seed bun. Must order condiments 00110A separately.
001 Deletes seeds. 002 Expands burger to two patties.
00020A Double Cheesburger, Preconfigured. Includes cheese, bun and condiments.
001 Add-on bacon. 002 Delete second patty. 003 Replaces second patty with extra cheese.
00021A Burger Upgrade to Double Cheesburger.
001 From Single Burger. 002 From Double Burger. 003 Return credit for bun.
00220A Burger Bundle. Includes 00010A, 00210A and 00310A
001 Substitute root beer 00311A for cola 00310A.
My eyes glazed over. I asked for a burger and a root beer. The waitress looked at me like I was an alien.
"How would you like to order that, sir?" "Quickly, if possible. Can't I just order a sandwich and a drink?" "No sir. All our service here is menu driven. Now what would you like?" I scanned the menu. "How big is the 00010 burger?" "The patty is rated at eight bites." "Well, how about the rest of it?" "I don't have the specs on that, sir, but I think it's a bit more." "Eight bites is too small. Give me the Double Burger Upgrade."
My sales rep interrupted. "No, you want the Single Burger option 002 'expands burger to two patties'. The Double Burger Upgrade would give you two burgers.
"But you could get return credit on the extra bun," the waitress chimed in, trying to be helpful, "although it isn't documented."
I looked around to see if anybody was staring at me. There was a couple in line behind us. I recognized one of them, a guy who nearly mowed me down in the parking lot with his cherry-red '62 Vette. He was talking to some woman who was waving her arms around and looking very excited.
"What if... we marketed the bacon cheesebuger with the vegetable option and without the burger and cheese? It'd be a BLT!"
The woman charged off in the direction of the telephone, running steeplechase over tables and chairs. My waitress tried to get my attention again. "Have you decided, sir?"
"Yeah, give me the double burger- excuse me, I mean the 00020A with option 001. I want everything on it." She put me down for the Condiment Expansion Kit, which included mayonnaise, mustard and pickles with a option to substitute relish.
"Ketchup." I hated to ask. "I want ketchup on that, too." "That's not a condiment, sir, it's a Tomato Product." My Sales Rep butted in again. "That's not a supported configuration." "What now?" I kept my voice steady. "Too juicy. The bun can't handle it." "Look, forget the ketchup, just put some lettuce and tomatoes on it."
The waitress backed away from the counter. "I'm sorry, sir, but that's not supported either. The bun can take it, but the burger won't fit in the box. "Ah, but it will." The Sales Rep defended himself. "Just not at first release." "It is being beta-tested, sir."
I checked the overhead screen. Fries, number 00210A, option 110, French, followed by option 120, English. "What the hell are English Fries?" I turned to the Sales Rep. "Chips they call them. We sell a lot of them."
I gave up. "OK, OK, just give me a plain, vanilla Burger Bundle." This confused the waitress profoundly. "Sir, Vanilla as an option is configured only for Series 00450 Milkshakes." My sales rep chuckled. "No, ma'am, he just wants a standard 00220A off the shelf. I wondered how long it had been on the shelf. I didn't ask.
"Very good, sir." The waitress breathed a sigh of relief. "Your meal is now on order. Now, how would you like it supported?" "Support?" She directed me to the green shaded area at the bottom of the menu, and I began a litany with my Sales Rep that I'll never forget.
"Implementation assistance?"
"You get a waiter."
"Implementation analysis?"
"You tell him how hungry you are, and he tells you what to eat."
"Response Center Support?"
"He brings it to your table."
"Extended materials?"
"You get refills."
I stuffed some money at the waitress and told her to take it. She gave me my check on three sheets of green-bar paper. I studied it on the way to my table, and decided it'd pass as an emergency napkin.
Table? My Sales Rep had been bright enough to order us a table. He hadn't been bright enough to check on a delivery date. The table waiter slouching in the corner surveyed the crowded room, looked at me and said "Two weeks. But I can get you a standalone chair by the window right away."
I handed him the tray. A woman rushed up to me with two cups of chili and sauerkraut for the hot dog someone else had ordered. The room began to grow dim, my eyesight faded...
I woke up clutching the water-glass at my bedside table. It was five AM, four hours till my meeting with HP. I had had a vision, I did what it told me to do. I dialed my office, and I called in sick.
> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. > One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Frank Rome, NY R.W. Behan - 13 Feb 2005 23:05 GMT Frank: I'm an OLDER film dinosaur. If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling myself into a vat of D-76 and drown.
Dick Lopez Island Washington
> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO. > One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in printers [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Frank Rome, NY jjs - 14 Feb 2005 04:50 GMT > Frank: I'm an OLDER film dinosaur. If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling > myself into a vat of D-76 and drown. I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll stop, fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too.
R.W. Behan - 14 Feb 2005 17:43 GMT Hey, JJ:
Do you remember D-76 when it came packaged in a two-part glass jar? A smaller one on top of a larger one? You had to dissolve one powder before the other. Remember? The jars were dark brown glass. Hm?
Cheers,
Dick Behan
>> Frank: I'm an OLDER film dinosaur. If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling >> myself into a vat of D-76 and drown. > > I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll > stop, fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too. Jean-David Beyer - 14 Feb 2005 17:50 GMT > Hey, JJ: > > Do you remember D-76 when it came packaged in a two-part glass jar? A > smaller one on top of a larger one? You had to dissolve one powder > before the other. Remember? The jars were dark brown glass. Hm? Not me. I do remember it in sealed metal cans, though. But one part.
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 12:45:00 up 25 days, 21:00, 4 users, load average: 6.10, 5.53, 4.81
Keith Tapscott - 16 Mar 2005 19:09 GMT Interesting, I use D-76 too on the strength that Kodak use extra buffering with Boric anhydride. How do Kodak compound their developers which contain Metol into single powders when published formulas for developers which contain Metol suggest that the Metol is dissolved before the Sodium Sulphite?
> Hey, JJ: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll >> stop, fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too. Nicholas O. Lindan - 16 Mar 2005 19:38 GMT > How do Kodak compound their developers which contain Metol into single > powders when published formulas for developers which contain Metol suggest > that the Metol is dissolved before the Sodium Sulphite? Kodak may add some pixie dust to aid in getting the metol in solution, but I don't know what it is. There is another side to an answer:
Kodak packaged developers take a long time to dissolve completely. The snow that always swirls around the bottom of the mixing jug is undissolved metol (or phenidone).
If the metol is added first (after a pinch of sodium sulfite) it dissolves quickly. DIY developer mixes up a lot faster than the packaged kind.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
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