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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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HP cosidering buying Kodak

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Frank Calidonna - 11 Feb 2005 14:13 GMT
This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in
printers would be to purchase Kodak. If they do I wonder what that will
mean for their film business?

I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters.
But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.

 Frank   Rome, NY
Frank Pittel - 11 Feb 2005 15:03 GMT
Is HP considering the purchase or is the writer for the times speculating on
what HP should do??

: This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
: One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in
: printers would be to purchase Kodak. If they do I wonder what that will
: mean for their film business?

: I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters.
: But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.

:   Frank   Rome, NY

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

John Walton - 11 Feb 2005 15:07 GMT
They might as well pave over Rochester.

Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with HP.  She
was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and a disaster at
strategic planning.  Board member William Hewlett did everything to stop the
Compaq acquistion, and as planned, it was a disaster.

Kodak has surprised me --- recovering as they have.  I did hate to lose
Technical Pan.

Jack

> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
> One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   Frank   Rome, NY
Joe Makowiec - 11 Feb 2005 16:45 GMT
> Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with
> HP.  She was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and
> a disaster at strategic planning.

I looked at her resume - background was entirely business/marketing.  
Maybe part of the problem at HP was culture clash with all the engineers?  
I'm certainly unimpressed with their products the past few years.

Signature

Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe

bob - 11 Feb 2005 17:08 GMT
>>Fiorina was about to be fired from Lucent when she got the job with
>>HP.  She was a lone warrior -- great at sales, poor at execution and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Maybe part of the problem at HP was culture clash with all the engineers?  
> I'm certainly unimpressed with their products the past few years.

The Color Laserjet 4650 is pretty decent, especially considering the
price. Of course you probably wouldn't want one in your darkroom. ;-)

Bob
David Nebenzahl - 11 Feb 2005 17:55 GMT
On 2/11/2005 7:11 AM John Walton spake thus:

> They might as well pave over Rochester.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Kodak has surprised me --- recovering as they have.  I did hate to lose
> Technical Pan.

Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's good to keep in mind
that the company is not only about film/digital and photography. Far from it;
Kodak is now one of the leading graphic arts imaging companies, meaning
production printing from digital printing (not darkroom printing, but making
many to thousands of copies) to CTP (computer-to-plate) technology used in
conventional offset printing. So in the long run, they may not even need Tech
Pan, perhaps not even Plus-X Professional, to survive.

>> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
>> One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> I am an old film dinosaur just dipping my toe into the digital waters.
>> But if I lose T-Max I will be heartbroken.

Signature

 Today's bullshit job description:

 • Collaborate to produce operational procedures for the systems management
 of the production Information Technology infrastructure.

- from an actual job listing on Craigslist (http://www.craigslist.org)

jo.sto@bigpond.com - 11 Feb 2005 22:44 GMT
> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's good to keep in mind
> that the company is not only about film/digital and photography. Far from it;
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> conventional offset printing. So in the long run, they may not even need Tech
> Pan, perhaps not even Plus-X Professional, to survive.

And Agfa was similar, and found that it could do quite well without the
film division.

In the case of HP, as an extremely loyal customer of HP over 30 years,
all I can say is that they've lost me.  Their old slogan that was
something like "innovative products of lasting value" is apparently so
20th century that they have gone from a maker of the absolute best
products in some fields to just another marketing company.  The last HP
product I bought went into the bin real fast.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Feb 2005 01:45 GMT
> In the case of HP, as an extremely loyal customer of HP over 30 years,
> all I can say is that they've lost me.  Their old slogan that was
> something like "innovative products of lasting value" is apparently so
> 20th century that they have gone from a maker of the absolute best
> products in some fields to just another marketing company.  The last HP
> product I bought went into the bin real fast.

The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975:

 "The success and prosperity of our company will be assured only
  if we offer our customers superior products that fill real needs
  and provide lasting value, and that are supported by a wide
  variety of useful services, both before and after sale."

                      Statement of Corporate Objectives.
                      Hewlett-Packard

                     *     *     *

The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 49, c. 1999:

 "This manual and any examples contained herein are provided
  as-is and are subject to change without notice. Except to
  the extent prohibited by law, Hewtett-Packard Company makes
  no express or implied warranty of any kind with regard to
  this manual and specifically disclaims the implied warranties
  and conditions of merchantability and fitness for a particular
  purpose and Hewlett-Packard Company shall not be liable for
  any errors or for incidental or consequential damage in
  connection with the furnishing, performance or use of this
  manual and the examples herein."

                     *     *     *

The '25 is still going strong, though I had to open it up an put
a bit of WD-40 on the on-off switch, it was getting a bit rough after
30 years of use but it works like new now.

The '49 died 1.5 years after purchase.  It can not be fixed as the
calculator is spot-welded shut and is replaced, not repaired.
After the 1 year warranty you are SOoL.

                    *     *     *

The reader can draw his own conclusions regarding h/p's
"success and prosperity".  I wonder if Carly ever saw the
original "statement of corporate objectives"?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Ken Nadvornick - 12 Feb 2005 06:14 GMT
> The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975:
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> "success and prosperity".  I wonder if Carly ever saw the
> original "statement of corporate objectives"?

Absolute bulls-eye...

Thanks for this,

Ken
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 12 Feb 2005 17:23 GMT
feb1205 from Lloyd Erlick,

I took the liberty of emailing HP. I copied Nicholas'
snips from their literature (but omitted personal
identifiers).

I doubt there will be a response (see below for the
material I placed into their communications form
online, and below that for the 'confirmation' response
I received -- "Although I cannot personally respond to
your message due to the volume of messages I receive, I
often pass along suggestions and observations to my
colleagues ..." etc.)

My prediction is that my own spam and junk mail
receipts will increase, because I gave them my real
name and email address.
--le

_________________________
feb1205 from Lloyd Erlick,

Hello HP,

Today I found the following in a darkroom forum I
follow, and wondered if you had any thoughts regarding
the sentiments expressed:

----------
> The inside cover of the manual for the h/p 25 calculator, c. 1975:
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>                      *     *     *

> The reader can draw his own conclusions regarding h/p's
> "success and prosperity".

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
___________________________________________________
------------------------

----------------------------------
Dear Valued Customer,

Your message is important to me. Although I cannot
personally respond to your message due to the volume of
messages I receive, I often pass along suggestions and
observations to my colleagues throughout
Hewlett-Packard. If action is required, I'll have
someone follow up.

If you need help, other information, or wish to send an
e-mail about particular HP products and services,
please visit please visit our Contact HP page.

Sincerely,

Bob Wayman
Interim Chief Executive Officer and Chief Financial
Officer
Hewlett-Packard Company

Richard Knoppow - 14 Feb 2005 01:56 GMT
>> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's
>> good to keep
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> The last HP
> product I bought went into the bin real fast.

  I worked for HP when it was run by Bill and Dave (who I
never saw in person). At that time the philosophy was to
make products only if they were innovative or were better
than competing products. There were few "me too" products.
One thing I observed is that as competition became greater
the margin of performance got smaller. We considered the
older products to be broken if they did not meet half specs.
The later, more advanced stuff, often just barely made
specs. Of course it was virtually a completely different
company. At that time its products could be described as
industrial and most customers were large businesses and
government. Probably the first products aimed at a consumer
market was the Model 31 hand held calculator. I am no longer
familiar with the entire HP catalogue but would guess than
most of the company's business is now done with consumers.
  I will have to try to find this story, it doesn't quite
make sense to me but then business manipulations often
don't.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

John Walton - 15 Feb 2005 13:37 GMT
Hp is now HP and Agilent, with Agilent being the instrumentation side (and
semiconductor products).

Agilent -- they are as difficult to deal with as ever.  Tektronix on the
other hand makes it a breeze.  On one of my Tek orders a supervisor did a
follow up call to make sure everything arrived OK.

> >> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's
> >> good to keep
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> make sense to me but then business manipulations often
> don't.
RSD99 - 15 Feb 2005 17:59 GMT
Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that the "old HP" that
you worked for is now a totally different company.

Ms.CF "decided" to concentrate on the printer and computer business, and
spun off the instrumentation business several years ago, I believe it is
now called something like "Adgelent Technology" ... or some similar name. I
also believe that the well regarded "Corporate Principles" that Hewlett and
Packard established have also gone by the wayside ... at least for the
remaining company that is now known as "H-P."

Oh ... by the way ... "voices from the past" ...  remember the HP Service
Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ?

> >> Well, when talking about Kodak's impending demise, it's
> >> good to keep
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 05:22 GMT
> Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that
> the "old HP" that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the HP Service
> Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ?

  I worked at the Cahuenga center but left before the move
to Fredonia. I was in the RF department and was the local
spectrum analyser maven along with my supervisor Oscar
Reimann
  Eventially I began to do field service on computerized
systems. I left because of a family emergency and then found
out I could have gotten an LOA. Oh, well, it was so long ago
that it seems to have been a different life.
Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 05:26 GMT
> Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that
> the "old HP" that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the HP Service
> Center at Cahuenga Boulevard and Fredonia Drive ... ?

  I meant to add that in those days we did everything we
could to please customers. The salesmen were all graduate
engineers with experience in the kinds of businesses we sold
to so they were good at helping customers get instruments
that would be helpful to them. Anything that came into the
service department left looking and working like a brand new
instrument.
  At the time the philosophy was that it sold stuff and
kept loyal customers.
  I used to see Norm Neeley once in a while. He would never
remember me and would introduce himself as though we had
never met.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

John - 15 Feb 2005 18:33 GMT
>   I meant to add that in those days we did everything we
>could to please customers.

    What year was this ? I can tell you as someone who competes
with HP (well, they aren't really competition anymore are they ?),
this is NOT how business is done today !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
Richard Knoppow - 16 Feb 2005 08:04 GMT
> >   I meant to add that in those days we did everything we
> >could to please customers.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>    John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org

mid 1960s to mid 1970s.  It is a completely different company now.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
analyst - 19 Feb 2005 09:22 GMT
*Richard ... one thing that you are not mentioning is that the "old HP" that
*you worked for is now a totally different company.
*
*Ms.CF "decided" to concentrate on the printer and computer business, and
*spun off the instrumentation business several years ago, I believe it is
*now called something like "Adgelent Technology" ...

----------------------------------------------X

Agilent

they have good products, but not as durable as instruments
manufactured say 15 years ago under HP banner.
Agilent's suppost is a joke, very bad one.
They treat old customers like mugs.
Still, competition is smaller each year, and we have to buy from
Agilent, teeth grinding..
RSD99 - 19 Feb 2005 18:57 GMT
Interesting ... and unfortunate.

FWIW: Both Richard and I worked in the superb support organization that
Neely Enterprises established for The (original) Hewlett-Packard Company in
Southern California ... many long years ago.

I'm sure that he is just as unhappy about the "changes" as I am.

> Agilent
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Still, competition is smaller each year, and we have to buy from
> Agilent, teeth grinding..
John - 11 Feb 2005 20:24 GMT
>Board member William Hewlett did everything to stop the
>Compaq acquistion, and as planned, it was a disaster.

    Perhaps you meant "as predicted" ? And one mans disaster is
anothers opportunity. Just ask Michael Dell !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
John Walton - 12 Feb 2005 14:29 GMT
From a friend who used to work there:

This is the story of a different kind. No melting CPUs, no screaming
disc drives, just the kind of psychological torture that scars a man
for life.

I had a 9:00 meeting with my Sales Rep. I needed to buy an entire new
Series 70, the works. He said it'd take about an hour. Three hours
later, we'd barely got the datacomm hardware down on paper, so he
invited me downstairs to lunch.

This was my first experience in an HP cafeteria. Above the service
counter was a menu which began...

MMU's (Main Meal Units)

00010A  Burger. Includes sesame-seed bun.
       Must order condiments 00110A separately.

 001   Deletes seeds.
 002   Expands burger to two patties.

00020A  Double Cheesburger, Preconfigured. Includes cheese, bun
       and condiments.

 001   Add-on bacon.
 002   Delete second patty.
 003   Replaces second patty with extra cheese.

00021A  Burger Upgrade to Double Cheesburger.

 001   From Single Burger.
 002   From Double Burger.
 003   Return credit for bun.

00220A  Burger Bundle. Includes 00010A, 00210A and 00310A

 001   Substitute root beer 00311A for cola 00310A.

My eyes glazed over. I asked for a burger and a root beer.
The waitress looked at me like I was an alien.

"How would you like to order that, sir?"
"Quickly, if possible. Can't I just order a sandwich and a drink?"
"No sir. All our service here is menu driven. Now what would you like?"
I scanned the menu. "How big is the 00010 burger?"
"The patty is rated at eight bites."
"Well, how about the rest of it?"
"I don't have the specs on that, sir, but I think it's a bit more."
"Eight bites is too small. Give me the Double Burger Upgrade."

My sales rep interrupted. "No, you want the Single Burger option 002
'expands burger to two patties'. The Double Burger Upgrade would give
you two burgers.

"But you could get return credit on the extra bun," the waitress
chimed in, trying to be helpful, "although it isn't documented."

I looked around to see if anybody was staring at me. There was a couple
in line behind us. I recognized one of them, a guy who nearly mowed me
down in the parking lot with his cherry-red '62 Vette. He was talking
to some woman who was waving her arms around and looking very excited.

"What if... we marketed the bacon cheesebuger with the vegetable option
and without the burger and cheese? It'd be a BLT!"

The woman charged off in the direction of the telephone, running
steeplechase over tables and chairs. My waitress tried to get my
attention again. "Have you decided, sir?"

"Yeah, give me the double burger- excuse me, I mean the 00020A with
option 001. I want everything on it." She put me down for the
Condiment Expansion Kit, which included mayonnaise, mustard and pickles
with a option to substitute relish.

"Ketchup." I hated to ask. "I want ketchup on that, too."
"That's not a condiment, sir, it's a Tomato Product." My Sales Rep
butted in again. "That's not a supported configuration."
"What now?" I kept my voice steady.
"Too juicy. The bun can't handle it."
"Look, forget the ketchup, just put some lettuce and tomatoes on it."

The waitress backed away from the counter. "I'm sorry, sir, but that's
not supported either. The bun can take it, but the burger won't fit
in the box. "Ah, but it will." The Sales Rep defended himself. "Just
not at first release." "It is being beta-tested, sir."

I checked the overhead screen. Fries, number 00210A, option 110,
French, followed by option 120, English. "What the hell are English
Fries?" I turned to the Sales Rep. "Chips they call them. We sell a
lot of them."

I gave up. "OK, OK, just give me a plain, vanilla Burger Bundle."
This confused the waitress profoundly. "Sir, Vanilla as an option is
configured only for Series 00450 Milkshakes." My sales rep chuckled.
"No, ma'am, he just wants a standard 00220A off the shelf. I wondered
how long it had been on the shelf. I didn't ask.

"Very good, sir." The waitress breathed a sigh of relief. "Your meal
is now on order. Now, how would you like it supported?" "Support?"
She directed me to the green shaded area at the bottom of the menu,
and I began a litany with my Sales Rep that I'll never forget.

"Implementation assistance?"

"You get a waiter."

"Implementation analysis?"

"You tell him how hungry you are, and he tells you what to eat."

"Response Center Support?"

"He brings it to your table."

"Extended materials?"

"You get refills."

I stuffed some money at the waitress and told her to take it. She
gave me my check on three sheets of green-bar paper. I studied it
on the way to my table, and decided it'd pass as an emergency napkin.

Table? My Sales Rep had been bright enough to order us a table. He
hadn't been bright enough to check on a delivery date. The table
waiter slouching in the corner surveyed the crowded room, looked at me
and said "Two weeks. But I can get you a standalone chair by the
window right away."

I handed him the tray. A woman rushed up to me with two cups of chili
and sauerkraut for the hot dog someone else had ordered. The room
began to grow dim, my eyesight faded...

I woke up clutching the water-glass at my bedside table. It was five
AM, four hours till my meeting with HP. I had had a vision, I did
what it told me to do. I dialed my office, and I called in sick.

> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
> One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   Frank   Rome, NY
R.W. Behan - 13 Feb 2005 23:05 GMT
Frank:  I'm an OLDER film dinosaur.  If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling myself
into a vat of D-76 and drown.

Dick
Lopez Island
Washington

> This morning's NY Times has an article about HP's future with a new CEO.
> One of their considered strategies to maximize their strength in printers
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>  Frank   Rome, NY
jjs - 14 Feb 2005 04:50 GMT
> Frank:  I'm an OLDER film dinosaur.  If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling
> myself into a vat of D-76 and drown.

I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll stop,
fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too.
R.W. Behan - 14 Feb 2005 17:43 GMT
Hey, JJ:

Do you remember D-76 when it came packaged in a two-part glass jar?  A
smaller one on top of a larger one?  You had to dissolve one powder before
the other.  Remember?  The jars were dark brown glass.  Hm?

Cheers,

Dick Behan

>> Frank:  I'm an OLDER film dinosaur.  If I lose Tri-X Pan, I'll fling
>> myself into a vat of D-76 and drown.
>
> I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll
> stop, fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too.
Jean-David Beyer - 14 Feb 2005 17:50 GMT
> Hey, JJ:
>
> Do you remember D-76 when it came packaged in a two-part glass jar?  A
>  smaller one on top of a larger one?  You had to dissolve one powder
> before the other.  Remember?  The jars were dark brown glass.  Hm?

Not me. I do remember it in sealed metal cans, though. But one part.

Signature

  .~.  Jean-David Beyer          Registered Linux User 85642.
  /V\  PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A         Registered Machine   241939.
 /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey    http://counter.li.org
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Keith Tapscott - 16 Mar 2005 19:09 GMT
Interesting, I use D-76 too on the strength that Kodak use extra buffering
with Boric anhydride.
How do Kodak compound their developers which contain Metol into single
powders when published formulas for developers which contain Metol suggest
that the Metol is dissolved before the Sodium Sulphite?

> Hey, JJ:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> I'll bet I'm older, but I'm still developing. If Tri-X disappears I'll
>> stop, fix and wash myself. Whew. 'bout time, too.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 16 Mar 2005 19:38 GMT
> How do Kodak compound their developers which contain Metol into single
> powders when published formulas for developers which contain Metol suggest
> that the Metol is dissolved before the Sodium Sulphite?

Kodak may add some pixie dust to aid in getting the metol in solution,
but I don't know what it is.  There is another side to an answer:

Kodak packaged developers take a long time to dissolve completely.  The
snow that always swirls around the bottom of the mixing jug is undissolved
metol (or phenidone).

If the metol is added first (after a pinch of sodium sulfite) it dissolves
quickly.  DIY developer mixes up a lot faster than the packaged kind.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

 
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