Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Help with Kodak Roll and sheet film pinkish coating!!

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Jos. Burke - 06 Feb 2005 18:07 GMT
Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
 I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
my Kodak films from 120 Roll (Tmax and Tri-X) as well as my sheet film of
the same. I'm processing in a Jobo and am using both a 5 minute presoak as
well as a long 5 minute fixing. Also a long washing still doesn't clear it
properly!! Still there in most cases and it seems TriX is the hardest to
clear (I haven't managed to clear it yet!).
Advice please!
What am I missing or doing wrong!
Sure makes Ilford films (I use both Ilford and the Yellow Giant labels) look
good in regards to processing!!
Jos. Burke
jjs - 06 Feb 2005 18:22 GMT
> [...] Also a long washing still doesn't clear it properly!!

Try hypo-clear, or if you have a developed negative you can spare, soak it
in developer with occasional agitation. I'll bet that removes the pink.

A side question - do you use soft water for washing?
Jos. Burke - 06 Feb 2005 20:59 GMT
To continue I also use Perma Wash after the fact and my water here in KY is
rather hard ( I don't soften)---It's pumped straight out of the Ohio River,
critters and all, belly-up and living!! Adds to the flavor as well as the
bouquet!!!! We get a little something extra in every glass!!
J Burke
> Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
>   I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> good in regards to processing!!
> Jos. Burke
Glenn Booth - 06 Feb 2005 21:34 GMT
> To continue I also use Perma Wash after the fact and my water here in KY is
> rather hard ( I don't soften)---It's pumped straight out of the Ohio River,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>good in regards to processing!!
>>Jos. Burke

You didn't say what kind of fix you're using. Even in rapid fix you
should try fixing 7 - 10 minutes. I experienced the same problem and
found that simply fixing longer would remove the pink.

glenn booth
jjs - 06 Feb 2005 22:37 GMT
> You didn't say what kind of fix you're using. Even in rapid fix you should
> try fixing 7 - 10 minutes. I experienced the same problem and found that
> simply fixing longer would remove the pink.

Normal fixing times without hardener.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 07 Feb 2005 22:43 GMT
Certain impurities may cause precipitation of the silver-thiosulfate
complex in the emulsion. Sodium and ammonium silver-thiosulfate
complexes are soluble and wash out. That pink hue is a sign
of incomplete wash out.

I've very hard water so use only distilled water.
Dan
jjs - 08 Feb 2005 00:44 GMT
> I've very hard water so use only distilled water.

Hard water, if it is largely iron, is a very good for archival washing. Pure
water hardly washes at all. Wash in hard, rinse and photo-flow in pure and
be happy.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 08 Feb 2005 03:37 GMT
> > I've very hard water so use only distilled water.
>
> Hard water, if it is largely iron, is a very good for
> archival washing. Pure water hardly washes at all. Wash
> in hard, rinse and photo-flow in pure and be happy.

The OP's water must not be "largely iron" He ends up with
pinkish emulsions. I'll see if my local supermarket has hard
water by the gallon.                                     Dan
LR Kalajainen - 06 Feb 2005 22:29 GMT
Two suggestions:  1)try using either distilled or softened water (add
about 1/2 tsp. of Calgon crystals to your water), and 2)try an
extra-strength mixture of Perma-Wash and give it about double the
recommended time in the Perma Wash.

Three. . .three suggestions (and a fanatical obedience to the Pope),
oops, sorry, wrong sketch.  Anyway, check the pH of your processes.  The
pink comes out better at higher pH.  So you might want to avoid using
hardener in your fixer and/or switch to an alkaline fixer.  Also, make
sure your developer is at least pH 9.

>Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
>  I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>  
Mike King - 07 Feb 2005 12:00 GMT
No mention of type of fixer, are you using Rapid Fix and at what dilution?
Are you using it one shot or reusing your fixer.  Will the film clear if you
refix in fresh fixer?

Signature

darkroommike

----------

> Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
>   I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> good in regards to processing!!
> Jos. Burke
Luka Gojceta - 08 Feb 2005 12:40 GMT
> Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
>   I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>I had the same problem, using 400TMY. I simply fixed it an additional
minute (in rapid fix FF2), and washed it in PhotoFlo. The pink coating was
gone
Nicholas O. Lindan - 09 Feb 2005 18:35 GMT
>   I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
> my Kodak films from 120 Roll (Tmax and Tri-X) as well as my sheet film of
> the same.

The pink comes out much more easily if the hypo-clear and final wash are
done at 75 degrees.  'Pink Problems' are normally a winter affair.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Javi L - 10 Feb 2005 02:01 GMT
You suggest the hole developping process must take place at 75 degrees? Or
do you mean the washing step? In this last case wont difference between bath
temperatures harm the film?

> >   I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
> > my Kodak films from 120 Roll (Tmax and Tri-X) as well as my sheet film of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
> psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
bj - 10 Feb 2005 05:08 GMT
Watch out about 75 degree wash may reticulate film. (Tmax is a thinner
emulsion than tri-x and will take a greater temperture change but still
be carefull) Kodak changed Tmax from other films in that the emulsion
color is an additive to the base side of the negative to check for
total film fix. Lengthen  your fix time to 10 mins, wash, hypo, wash
photo flo. This will take care of it. I to had this problem when tmax
first came out and change all film fixing to 10 mins to compensate for
it.
Frank Pittel - 10 Feb 2005 21:11 GMT
: Watch out about 75 degree wash may reticulate film. (Tmax is a thinner
: emulsion than tri-x and will take a greater temperture change but still
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: first came out and change all film fixing to 10 mins to compensate for
: it.

I've managed to abuse Tmax with temprature changes and have never had an
issue with reticulation. I do know that I process Tmax at 75 degrees.

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

Richard Knoppow - 05 Mar 2005 00:12 GMT
> Watch out about 75 degree wash may reticulate film. (Tmax
> is a thinner
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> compensate for
> it.

 Its the emulsion that reticulates. T-Max emulsions are
very hard. They are similar to the emulsions of color films
which will withstand 100F processing. Some other films are
not so hardended. Tri-X, at least befor production was
moved, was easier to reticulate than most other films but it
still took an effort. The current stuff may be harder.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 10 Feb 2005 05:29 GMT
> You suggest the hole developping process must take place at 75 degrees? Or
> do you mean the washing step?

Hypo clear and wash.  Though you can do the whole shebang at 75.  I
I keep the thermostat at 64 in the winter and I process at room
temperature.  In the summer ~75 is about average.

> In this last case wont difference between bath
> temperatures harm the film?

No

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 10 Feb 2005 23:49 GMT
I use only enough A. Thio. concentrate as will completly clear one
unexposed roll of film. So much silver, so much fixer. Try 20ml of
concentrate in whatever solution volume needed. The greater the
volume the better.  Archival results are more nearly approached.
Give constant agitation and check in dim light after four
minutes. No pink in my Pan F+ and it can be.                        Dan
Richard Knoppow - 05 Mar 2005 00:30 GMT
> Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and
> please advise!!
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> good in regards to processing!!
> Jos. Burke

  I've read through  this rather long thread and still am
not sure of what fixer you are using. Rapid fixer at film
strength should fix out Tri-X and T-Max in five minutes
unless its very exhausted. Make sure you agitate the film
frequently while its fixing.
  The easiest way to test the fixer is to fix out a scrap
of undeveloped film. Soak the film in water for 2 or 3
minutes to swell the gelatin and then fix it in a sample of
the fixing bath. In film strength rapid fixer it should
become visually clear in about 2 minutes. It should be fixed
for 2 to 3 times the clearing time. If the clearing time is
excessive replace the fixer. The reason for the presoak is
that wet film fixes at a different rate from dry film.
  While rapid fixer has a much greater capacity than sodium
thiosulfate fixer I still suggest the use of two successive
fixing baths. This extends the life of the fixer
considerably and insures complete fixing. Note that there
are still insoluble halide or reaction products in the
emulsion even after it have become visually clear, extending
the fixing time by a factor of 2 to 3 times insures that
this material has been reacted into a water soluble form
which will come out in the fixer or wash.
  There are two things that result in a color stain on the
film: one is unfixed halide, the other is residual
sensitizing dye. They look a bit different. Unfixed halide
is turbid, the dye is not. Turbidity (cloudiness) requires
refixing in fresh fixer to get rid of. The sensitizing dye
in T-Max (and maybe Tri-X also) is a sort of pinkish violet
but it is clear. This dye seems to be very persistent and
bonds to something in the emulsion. While Kodak suggests its
from inadequate fixing it seem to persist even when fixing
is carried out well beyond the point of of normal fixing
times. The dye can be gotten rid of by a normal treatment in
a sulfite wash aid such as Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. KHCA
has several properties that break the chemical bond between
fixer, alum hardener, fixer reaction products, and the
residual dye with the gelatin of the emulsion and the image
silver. To some extent it will compensate for partially
exhausted fixer. With T-Max films the sensitizing dye comes
completely out in a normal 2 to 3 minute treatment in the
wash aid.
  I know from Kodak's published research paper that KHCA
works. I don't know about other wash aides. Kodak's is
designed to produce minimum swelling of the emulsion and to
adjust the pH to a point where washing is rapid but
hardening from alum hardener is not destroyed as it is by a
high pH bath in sodium carbonate or some other alkali. It
also has an ion exchange property not shared by plain alkali
baths. It is this property which is primarily for the very
great acceleration of washing.
  I don't use much Tri-X but use a lot of T-Max. I get
completely clear negatives after using wash aid even when
fixing in sodium thiosulfate fixer.

 Write back and let me know what you find.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 06 Mar 2005 00:01 GMT
> While rapid fixer has a much greater capacity
> than sodium thiosulfate fixer ...

 Working strengh fixers have suggested maximum silver
content levels per unit volume of fixer. The levels for
archival purposes are low. Any fix, sodium or ammonium may
exceed those levels long before it's capacity for complexing silver is
reached. In practice A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio. That is even more true when iodide is present
as the ammonium ion's affinity for silver in the presence
of iodide is near zero. That near zero affinity is the
reason for longer fix times with iodided emulsion.
 The only reason for FILM STRENGTH fixer, if I read Ilford correctly,
is the high 8 - 10 grams of silver per liter they suggest for
commercial purposes. Any one processing at or
near the much lower archival silver levels using 'film'
strength is just throwing fixer down the drain.
 There are two capacities. One is the chemistry's ability
to complex silver and the other is the safe silver level per
unit volume. Save for very dilute fixers such as I use the chemistry's
capacity is not usually a matter of concern. Dan
Richard Knoppow - 07 Mar 2005 14:24 GMT
> > While rapid fixer has a much greater capacity
> > than sodium thiosulfate fixer ...
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> unit volume. Save for very dilute fixers such as I use the chemistry's
> capacity is not usually a matter of concern. Dan

  I am not quite sure what you mean by affinity. According to the
literature Ammonium thiosulfate is less affected by the presense of
iodide ions from silver iodide than is sodium thiosulfate. Iodide acts
to slow down fixing. Since most modern films have a large amount of
iodide in them ammonium thiosulfate has the advantage.
  It takes something like three free thiosulfate ions to complex a
silver halide ion. The ability of fixing baths to complex silver halide
to the point where it becomes entirely water soluble is limited. Fixer
will continue to clear film long after it stops being able to remove
the partially complexed silver. The use of two successive baths
increases the capacity of both salts to fix completely. Since most of
the iodide comes out in the first bath the second one is effective even
with high iodide emulsions.
  Quite some time ago Micheal Gudzinowicz posted a complete
explanation of how fixing baths work to this news group. I think it is
still available via Google.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 08 Mar 2005 00:12 GMT
>    I am not quite sure what you mean by affinity.

    Affinity - Attraction  The ammonium ion has a near
zero, in chemistry, affinity for silver in the presence of
iodide. That is, the ammonium ion will complex very nearly not
at all with silver if iodide is present. It will complex well
with silver when chloride and less well when bromide
are present.

> Iodide acts to slow down fixing.

 That's true. It ain't Rapid Fixer any more. I'd think
only a little slower to use S. Thio. fixer. It is the
thiosulfate ion, with it's great affinity for silver
in the presence of iodide that does the job.

 That should explain it. That should explain it.         Dan
Tony - 08 Mar 2005 12:28 GMT
Getting rid of the pink the Tony way.

(1) Leave the film in the fixer and make yourself a cup of coffe.

(2) Drink Coffee, go back and agitate film tank.

(3) Leave the film in the fixer and make yourself a sandwich.

(4) Eat sandwich, go back and agitate film tank.

(5) Leave the film in the fixer and walk the dog.

(6) Go back, drain the tank and wash the film for about an hour.

Gauranteed to wor

--
Tony
John - 08 Mar 2005 17:06 GMT
>Getting rid of the pink the Tony way.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>(6) Go back, drain the tank and wash the film for about an hour.
>Gauranteed to work

    Yeah and guaranteed to eat away at the shadow detail as well.

    2 baths, each for 3 minutes in Kodak Rapid Fixer sans hardener
and wash for 5 minutes, HCA for 5 minutes, wash for 15 minutes.

    BTW, if the film is fixed properly and the pink stain is still
present all you really need to do is to lay the negs on a lightbox for
a while. The dye is UV sensitive and will fade.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Tony - 09 Mar 2005 05:34 GMT
OK! So my timings may be a little exaggerated but do check out th
following link to the yellow giants technical forum.
Just to clarify, at least doubling the fix time will not eat you
shadow detail away, in fact if you left it in the fixer all night yo
would be hard pushed to detect any tonal compression.

The bit about "UV Sensitive and should fade" is a new one on me.

So you don't feel a faded stain across your negs will give you
problem then?

http://tinyurl.com/4cl9

--
Tony
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 09 Mar 2005 22:22 GMT
Give one-shot fix a try. With A. Thio. I use 20ml
of concentrate in 500ml for 120. Clears nicely my Pan F+
including the pink. Give a 3 minute agitation then in dim
light examine. One fix should do as the solution is very
dilute and the fix fresh to start.

Unless you are sure of your water supply, use distilled.
I'm sure certain impurities in water can form insoluble
compounds with the silver thiosulfate complex which
can precipitate in the emulsion. Those impurities
may be the source of some pink woes.                  Dan
John Bartley - 09 Mar 2005 22:48 GMT
>Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
>  I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
>my Kodak films from 120 Roll (Tmax and Tri-X) as well as my sheet film

For what it's worth, I needed a sheet of 4x5 film cleared. I slipped a
sheet of unexposed FP4+ into a "brand new" mix of Ilford Rapid Fixer and
left it there for 30 minutes. The mylar had a pinkish tinge to it even
after a good washing, and now that the sheet has sat on my desk for
about two weeks, the pink tinge is fading away.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

dr bob - 11 Mar 2005 13:30 GMT
> >Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
> >  I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> after a good washing, and now that the sheet has sat on my desk for
> about two weeks, the pink tinge is fading away.

A search for this phenomenon will produce a huge listing of discussion on
this subject.  Through extensive physical tests and observations it has been
proven that the color retention is the result of a sensitizing dye in the
emulsion.  It will come out completely on thorough washing and quicker with
HCA or equivalent.  Even if it remains it will have minimal effect on
printing.  My sheet films clear much faster than 120 roll film for some
reason - but they all clear if soaked in successive quiescent water baths.
The color will look differently depending on the type of film and the
manufacturer.

Truly. dr bob.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.