Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2005
How does choice of developer affect film speed?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
blut4rsky@gpcom.net - 29 Jan 2005 14:38 GMT Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by this. What particularly confuses me is that the same photographers shoot the film at the factory recommended ISO, so where does the speed gain come into play?
Thank you for your time.
PGG - 29 Jan 2005 19:50 GMT Somebody else will give you a better explanation of true film speed. Its basically how much light you need for something to show up on the negative.
All I know is that with developers like Xtol, I can shoot ISO 400 film at ISO 400.
If I use Rodinal, the the negative is underexposed unless I shoot it at something like ISO 200. When I was a newbie, roll after roll of film at shot (at the given ISO) came out dull and slightly underexposed. I developed with HC-110. Then I started rating ISO 400 film at 250 and got much better results. Nowadays I use Xtol which for me, is the perfect developer.
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:38:44 -0800, blut4rsky wrote:
> Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thank you for your time. Gregory Blank - 29 Jan 2005 19:59 GMT Short answer: It lowers the threshold of light, film requires to produce detail in a given area. The amount of light needed to produce a specific density value is thus lessened.
> Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thank you for your time.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Alan Smithee - 30 Jan 2005 04:12 GMT > Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thank you for your time. You have to think in terms of what it is that "speed" describes and why it's useful with regards to photography, it's not just a number on the camera dial (ok it is to some). Speed or the film's "rating" describes how the manufacturer predicts the emulsion will react when struck by light and then developed with a certain developer and the results then graphed scientifically on an exposure scale (the H&D curve). All developers are not created equal. You wouldn't except the same results processing two identically exposed frames if one was developed in D-76 and the other in coffee developer(Cafenol?) or horse piss for that matter. A developer can be mixed at different strengths too, a strong developer is described as "aggressive" a mild developer as "soft" or "gentle" think of this in woodworking terms. If you used a coarse rasp to round off a corner you'd get the job done quick but the wood would be rough, if you used 180 grit sand paper to round off the corner it might take a while longer and the corner would be smoother, which you choose depends on how much time you have and what is acceptable in the finished product -- both are correct in their own context. It's often advantageous to be able to shoot a subject with a faster shutter speed, smaller aperture or longer lens. Carrying a tripod around allows you to do quite a bit but isn't always practical. If you can bumped up the shutter speed by declaring "this film is faster than that film" or "this developer rates my film 1 or 2 stops faster" then you extend the range of what you're able to do with the camera. For example, if I shoot the same scene, let's say a grey card, and develop a frame of TMAX 400 in developer "A" then measure (with a densitometer) how dark (or dense) the image of card is on the negative and I get a value of 0.95 Then develop the same scene in developer "B" and the grey card measures 1.25 in density it means (or might mean) developer "B" is capable of creating 1 stop more density on the negative than developer "A" because a 0.30 increment on the "photo density" scale (H&D curve) equals 1 stop. To some degree "density" equates to data or usable "information" on the film so a better developer means you have more negative to work with better detail in the shadows might be one such benefit.
Chris - 30 Jan 2005 12:31 GMT Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply and helpful analogies! Looks like lots of testing in store for me. ;-)
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 31 Jan 2005 22:32 GMT >Chris wrote: > Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply and > helpful analogies! > Looks like lots of testing in store for me. How does choice of developer affect PAPER speed? I've noticed that paper exposure varies with paper developer. I've a hunch that variance can be used to test film developers using paper. Doing that would be a lot quicker than shooting a roll of film for each developer test. Dan
Gregory Blank - 31 Jan 2005 22:52 GMT > >Chris wrote: > > Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > lot quicker than shooting a roll of film for > each developer test. Dan Well some developers and various dilutions produce more or less contrast, contrast is relative to speed of the paper for a given exposure and the other "same criteria".
The chemical make up of the emulsions between film and paper I think are too dissimilar for that purpose.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Jean-David Beyer - 04 Feb 2005 14:54 GMT > How does choice of developer affect PAPER speed? > I've noticed that paper exposure varies with paper [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lot quicker than shooting a roll of film for > each developer test. Dan The choice of paper developer does affect PAPER speed. I have not specifically tested this, but I note that straight Amidol (Ansco 113) developer requires about double the paper exposure than does D:72 1+2.
I think testing film developers using paper is a silly idea: the conditions are completely different and the time and materials required to ascertain the relationship for each and every combination of film-developer-paper would surely exceed the effort and expense of testing the film directly. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 09:50:00 up 15 days, 18:04, 3 users, load average: 4.26, 3.82, 3.48
ArtKramr - 04 Feb 2005 16:49 GMT >Subject: Re: How does choice of developer affect film speed? >From: Jean-David Beyer jdbeyer@exit109.com
>I have not >specifically tested this, but I note that straight Amidol (Ansco 113) >developer requires about double the paper exposure than does D:72 1+2. > >I think testing film developers using paper is a silly idea: the Amidol is a paper developer.
Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 04 Feb 2005 17:19 GMT "Amidol is a paper developer.
Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer "
Amidol is also a film developer. Depends on how you mix it and use it.
Jean-David Beyer - 04 Feb 2005 17:48 GMT >>Subject: Re: How does choice of developer affect film speed? >>From: Jean-David Beyer jdbeyer@exit109.com [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Amidol is a paper developer. Sure: that is what I said.
I know you can develop film with it (since you can develop almost anything in almost anything if you calibrate right, and put enough restrainer in when printing on paper). Ansco 113 was definately meant for paper.
> Arthur Kramer > 344th BG 494th BS > England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany > Visit my WW II B-26 website at: > http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
 Signature .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 12:45:00 up 15 days, 20:59, 3 users, load average: 4.18, 4.18, 4.11
Richard Knoppow - 02 Feb 2005 14:23 GMT Its helpful to know what ISO film speed is. The ISO has a standard for measuring film speed which specifies the conditions of exposure and development of the film. There was once a standard developer (actually two) but the standard no longer requires these to be used. Any developer can be used provided the developer is stated with the speed. The standard is supposed to give a number that when set into the computer of an exposure meter will give an exposure resuting in good tonal rendition. The problem comes when the conditions of actual use are not similar to those assumed by the standard. One of the variables is the developer. The standard specifies a range of exposure for the test and a range of densities to be generated on the film. In effect, it specifies a contrast index but it is indirect. If the film is developed to a different contrast the effective speed will be different than given by the standard. Developers vary in their ability to select low values of latent image. The range is not very large. D-76 is considered a standard for "full" film speed for comparison to other developers. D-76 is not quite optimum for maximising speed although close. Some Phenidone developers are closer to being optimum, they give an increase in speed, that is, a lower exposure will result in a given density on the film at the same degree of development which is another way of saying contrast. So, when one of these developers is used for the ISO test it will result in a higher speed than if D-76 was used. Developers like Microphen, Xtol, T-Max RS, fall into this class. Some developers destroy some of the latent image or are not able to differentiate it from unexposed silver halide crystals. These developers give a lower density for the same value of exposure and development. Extra fine grain developers, like Microdol-X or Ilford Perceptol, when used full strength, fall into this class. A few developers fall in between somewhere. The overall range of speed in comparison to D-76 is about plus or minus 3/4 stop, not a lot. Since the ISO standard effectively specifies a contrast index develolping to a different contrast will affect the speed. The contrast index of the standard is fairly high, suitable for diffusion printing. If film is developed to a lower contrast, say for use in a condenser enlarger, the speed will become less. In this case by about 3/4 stop. The ISO speed is based on the idea that one should give film the minimum exposure possible and still get good tonal rendition. The reason is that grain and loss of sharpness increase with density. So, there is a benefit in making negatives on the thin side, provided the tonal rendition is good. Increasing exosure will sometimes result in better tonal rendition with little increase in grain or loss of sharpness especially with modern films which have thin, fine grain, emulsions. Because the ISO speed is designed to give minimum exposure, and because it has little safety factor, film does not have much underexposure latitude (room for exposure error) but usually has enormous overexposure latitude. Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 04 Feb 2005 17:17 GMT "Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by this. What particularly confuses me is that the same photographers shoot the film at the factory recommended ISO, so where does the speed gain come into play?
Thank you for your time."
Certain developers give more or less speed, almost always balancing other desirable qualities. This has been known for decades. It depends on the formulation. The ISO speed is measured using a specified developer, which is similar to D-76.
Agit Prop - 16 Feb 2005 03:59 GMT > "Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > on the formulation. The ISO speed is measured using a specified > developer, which is similar to D-76. You answer the question by rearranging it into a statement. Brilliant.
Q: "Why is the sky blue?" A: "Because the sky is blue."
Duh.......
UC - 26 Feb 2005 00:20 GMT > > "Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Duh....... It's not tautology. I said 'balancing other properties'. That means more speed, more grain, less sharpness, more fog.
no-name - 23 Feb 2005 20:42 GMT If a given film is exposed to a step wedge and developed fully ("to completion") in some hypothetical perfect developer, it will by definition have produced as much image density as possible, and more development time will not increase density. It will only increase fog.
For most of the films ordinarily used by people like us, that takes somewhere in the range of 15 to 30 minutes of development, in a developer considerably more dilute than normal. In a sense, a film's true inherent speed is a function of how much (or little) exposure it takes to create a target gamma on development to completion.
Reasonably short development time has long been a goal when compounding pictorial developers -- not too short, because that affects repeatability, and not too long, because we get impatient. So most developers in common use are compounded to work for something like five to twelve minutes, usually seven to ten or so, to give a fully developed image at pictorial gamma.
However, this shorter time must be paid for, and the price is that you need more exposure to get that fully developed image. In other words, you must rate the film at something lower than its true speed.
So the issue is not really how or why certain developers increase film speed. They don't. They just decrease it less than others.
The effect is spectacularly evident with narrow-latitude films like microfilms, which I have experimented with quite a lot. A microfilm that must be rated at 4 or 6 when developed in pyro for six minutes can be rated at 80 or 100 when developed in phenidone for 15-20 minutes. Pyro and phenidone are very different chemicals, and they react during development at different rates, and with different kinetics, which is why they yield such markedly different image qualities. In practical terms, phenidone "attacks" more quickly and has less tendency to develop unexposed grains (fog). Pyro is the oppsite. So you can leave the film in phenidone longer, and come closer to achieving the film's true inherent speed
Most film speeds are deduced using a Metol-borax developer (similar to D76), which produces reasonable development times but does not maximize speed. Most developers that are considered to increase film speed are compounded with phenidone, and if I remember correctly, most must be used at somewhat longer development times.
David Foy _________________________ http://www.bluefire.ca
> "Greetings. I have read many posts stating that a particular developer > could "give true film speed increase," and wonder what is meant by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > on the formulation. The ISO speed is measured using a specified > developer, which is similar to D-76. Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Feb 2005 21:21 GMT <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> "Greetings. I have read many posts You mean advertisements, I hope.
> stating that a particular developer could "give true film > speed increase," and wonder what is meant by this. "Make money fast", "Buy Herbal Viagra", "Hot housewife wants to come to your place now!" ....
It is a lie. Developers do not affect film speed. The manufacturer is telling you to over-develop your film. This can be done with just about any developer, some better than others but nothing spectacular. The effect is to increase negative contrast on underexposed film -- it is this underexposure that is touted as a 'speed increase'.
> If a given film is exposed to a step wedge and developed fully ("to > completion") I don't think film is ever normally developed to completion. I have done it with a scrap of film: let it sit in Dektol for an hour with the lights on. The stuff got to 4.2 OD! I didn't check fog level.
If development times are increased all that happens is contrast goes through the roof: fog or 4.2 OD.
We develop paper to completion, so I find the question of "why not film?" interesting. 1:1000 Rodinal _will_ stop working after a while but it isn't because the film is done to completion.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
no-name - 25 Feb 2005 03:21 GMT > .... Developers do not affect film speed. There is probably some technical sense in which you are right. The issue being discussed arises from what many photographers observe in practice. For example, Fuji Super HR microfilm must be exposed at EI 4 to 6 if you want the best possible negatives from pyro (http://kcbx.net/~mhd/2photo/film/choice/superhr), but can be exposed at EI 25 to 100 if you want the best possible negatives from POTA, Technidol, or H&W Control. I cite microfilms because they provide an extreme example, but it happens with pictorial black and white films too on a less flagrant scale. Have you not noticed it in your own work?
> > If a given film is exposed to a step wedge and developed fully ("to > > completion") > > I don't think film is ever normally developed to completion. I have > done it with a scrap of film: let it sit in Dektol for an hour with the > lights on. The stuff got to 4.2 OD! I didn't check fog level. Forgive me if I've mis-used the term "to completion." I am describing a real and observable phenomenon. If you experiment with a sensitometer and a 21-step wedge, you will see what I'm describing. You get to a point where you've got the best tone scale you're going to get, and after that, all that happens is fog (and, as you point out, rising gamma, which I neglected to mention).
A step wedge is an abstraction of a scene that contains a near-infinite range of tones from solid black to solid white, which is what most of us photograph, most of the time.
If the real point of your post is that film speeds and developer properties are sometimes, or even often, improperly advertised, I have to say I'm not sure.
I test a lot of film, and a few developers, and while a few film manufacturers are inconsistent in their development time recommendations, most are consistent and accurate. I test in the lab, with a sensitometer, and in the field, with 1/3 stop bracketing. I find virtually all of the film manufacturers rate their films accurately for development in D76. Certainly close enough to be within the limits of experimental error.
Claims that some developer "increases film speed" are usually made by enthusiasts, not by manufacturers. Certainly the developers I have tested have not been misrepresented. I hasten to add there are several chemistry manufacturers whose products I am not familiar with.
David Foy
 Signature Bluefire Laboratories http://www.bluefire.ca
Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Feb 2005 20:16 GMT "Mr. Blue" <nospam@thisaddress.please> wrote
> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in message > > .... Developers do not affect film speed. > [Disagree somewhat] I cite microfilms because they provide an extreme example, Point taken. However, my experience with Delagi, Technidol and POTA is that they produce the same contrast if I expose at the same ASA and adjust the development time for the same step-wedge response. For me, Tech Pan works best at ASA 7, though I shoot it at 25 for snap shots when I am willing to sacrifice the shadow detail. For me it is rich shadow detail with unblocked highlights that makes it.
> it happens with pictorial black and white films too on a less flagrant > scale. Have you not noticed it in your own work? Frankly, no. I don't push anymore, I get better results at normal development and living with the resulting low-contrast negatives with either high-contrast paper or scanning. If shadows are blank in the unpushed negative they are equally blank in the pushed one.I find pushing just slaughters any highlight detail: the combination of no shadow detail _and_ no highlight detail makes for horrid photographs. I can live with one or the other, not both.
My view on 'high-speed' developers is that the difference is in the instructions: the HS developers tell you to push as a matter of course, they declare this to be 'normal development' when it isn't. I found these developers work better at shorter developing times and normal exposure.
This is all from Tri-X experience of many years ago. I haven't revisited the subject: I just continue to take pictures with whatever light there is, process normally and do the best I can with the resulting negatives. The result of not pushing looks very natural: the camera doesn't see well in low light and neither does the eye, it _looks_ like it was taken by candlelight because it was.
> > > If a given film is exposed to a step wedge and developed fully ("to > > > completion") [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > happens is fog (and, as you point out, rising gamma, which I neglected to > mention). I think we are saying the same thing. 'Completion' to me means that densities are as high as they are ever going to get - you can't develop any more, there is no 'after that'. This is somewhat what happens with developing paper: after two minutes in the developer there isn't much change in the image and another two minutes doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Doubling normal film development time makes a heck of a difference.
> If the real point of your post is that film speeds and developer properties > are sometimes, or even often, improperly advertised, I have to say I'm not > sure. What I am saying is:
o Pushing with ordinary developers never makes things better. Pushing is different from modifying contrast by over/under exposure/development.
o There is a group of fringe commercial developers that make false claims for being able to increase film speed: Accufine, Diafine, Edwal ...
> I test a lot of film, and a few developers, and while a few film > manufacturers are inconsistent in their development time recommendations, > most are consistent and accurate. Agreed. Kodak, Ilford, Agfa etc. make no misleading claims.
> I hasten to add there are several chemistry > manufacturers whose products I am not familiar with. You are not missing much.
-- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
UC - 26 Feb 2005 00:20 GMT > <uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > "Greetings. I have read many posts [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It is a lie. Developers do not affect film speed. Yes, they do. Some give less speed and some give more. Rodinal gives less speed than D-76, and more grain and sharpness. Microdol-X gives less speed than D-76, with finer grain and less shrpness.
ericm1600@yahoo.com - 26 Feb 2005 13:34 GMT >It is a lie. Developers do not affect film speed. The >manufacturer is telling you to over-develop your film.
>The effect is to increase >negative contrast on underexposed film -- it is this >underexposure that is touted as a 'speed increase'. Using higher dilutions of some developers--Xtol, in particular--leads to local developer exhaustion during development. This means that the highlights don't get overdeveloped and the shadow areas get more detail. I really don't care what you call it, but in my book more detail in the shadow areas is the same as increasing the effective film speed.
Not all developers respond like this.
For example, I'm happy with Neopan 1600 exposed at 1600 in Xtol 1:3. Neopan is a lot closer to 800-1000 in d76. This is by examining details in the shadows and making sure the highlights aren't blown.
-- Eric http://canid.com/
|
|
|