Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005
Darkroom size
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bob - 21 Jan 2005 22:03 GMT I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already.
2) the space over a 2 car garage that won't be built for at least a year.
I'm tempted by the 8x8 space, because it's both certain, and soon, but my I do 4x5, so the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m). By the time it's in the space, along with counters and sinks, things will be pretty tight.
Anyone have experience in a comparable space with a comparable enlarger (Besseler 45)?
Currently all the gear is sitting on shelved in my office, because I can't set it up anywhere.
Bob
Michael Creem - 21 Jan 2005 23:46 GMT > I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bob That is the size of the darkroom that I have used for years with a Beseler 45mcr in it. My biggest problem was the height of the ceiling. The Beseler when raised to the top required a lot of space. I made a wooden sink for the wet side and could easily do 16x20s. Michael
bob - 22 Jan 2005 03:59 GMT > That is the size of the darkroom that I have used for years with a > Beseler 45mcr in it. My biggest problem was the height of the ceiling. > The Beseler when raised to the top required a lot of space. > I made a wooden sink for the wet side and could easily do 16x20s. > Michael Thanks Michael,
When I get closer to an actual decision I'll draw up some plans and solicit comments on the design.
Bob
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Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 02:20 GMT > I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the time it's in the space, along with counters and sinks, things will be > pretty tight. I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a 32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space for working. I find the 2 feet of standing space more than adequate for 16x20 printmaking. 20x24 is a bit tighter, but doable. In an 8x8 space you should have room for that on the dry side plus room for a large 2&1/2 by 8 foot sink opposite on the wet side with about 3 feet of standing space inbetween separating the two sides, if you use a conventional design, that is.
OTOH, you don't need 8 linear feet for the enlarger plus the planned sink size may vary. You could put the wet area along one wall and the enlarger area on the perpendicular wall at a right angle. That might give you more standing space and a feeling of openness.
I know a photographer who shoots and enlarged 11x14 and has a space no larger than yours. It's all in the design.
> Anyone have experience in a comparable space with a comparable enlarger > (Besseler 45)? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bob bob - 22 Jan 2005 04:02 GMT > I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a > 32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I know a photographer who shoots and enlarged 11x14 > and has a space no larger than yours. It's all in the Thanks Tom,
Do you think 2 1/2 (30 inches) is good for the sink? The biggest prints I've been contemplating are 16x20 -- a 24" sink would leave an inch or so on either side of the tray.
My preliminary concept was for two counters (dry & wet) with the door and an aisle down the middle, because it maximizes work surface and storage space. I hate the idea of corner cabinets.
Bob
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Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 05:43 GMT > > I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a > > 32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I've been contemplating are 16x20 -- a 24" sink would leave an inch or so > on either side of the tray. Trays are larger than the actual print sizes. My 16x20 trays are 22.5x18.5 so would fit in a 24" deep sink (patterson trays.) My preference/advice would be to have a sink as large as possible for the space. Keep in mind actual standing room to work over a sink doesn't take as much room as the sink itself.
> My preliminary concept was for two counters (dry & wet) with the door and > an aisle down the middle, because it maximizes work surface and storage > space. I hate the idea of corner cabinets. I'd consider the perpendicular design. It might leave space for future needs. Cabinets/storage shevles can be put above and below the sink or if space is an issue even outside the darkroom.
A good idea is to draft 2-3 spatial designs before deciding. You only get one chance :)
> Bob > > -- > Delete the inverse SPAM to reply Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 09:08 GMT > I'd consider the perpendicular design. It might > leave space for future needs. Cabinets/storage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A good idea is to draft 2-3 spatial designs before > deciding. You only get one chance :) I agree a plan is a very good Idea, I built my first two darkrooms without one.
I use a horse shoe shape or U shape, big wooden sink on one long side, counter with enlarger opposite side and counter and second smaller stainless drain sink on the third side. The open side I enter at and I share the room on that side with the houses water treatment apparatus.
Under the third side counter I have a shelf for large cubietainers, under the big sink is a kitchen sink stand that I removed the top from and mounted my homemade wooden "larger" sink,... gives me shelf space with doors. I have a lot of stuff including a MXt jammed into the room its about 8x12. At the amount of business I am doing, I have out grown the room. Luckly as I told you before I'll be moving into a new house and building a darkroom close to 2x the size.
I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom. for the OP to view.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 10:16 GMT
> I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom. > for the OP to view. Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html
smaller images are linked to bigger ones just click on them.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 21:45 GMT > > I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom. > > for the OP to view. Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves.
Or is it my imagination?
> Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 22:46 GMT > Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural > of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves. > > Or is it my imagination? > > > Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html Yep, I painted that a long time ago, I never finished that as I wanted to use the darkroom. I have always had issues finishing artwork,.. In any event once I get to "my house" I intend to allocate some real space for getting back to painting and and maybe some illustration work if I can find a market.
Quite a few years back I took up airbrush, here's a few more samples of some uncompleted drawings,...some of the first airbrush work I ever did while I was experimenting.
http://www.gregblankphoto.com/Greg'sArt.html
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 15:49 GMT > > Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural > > of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > some uncompleted drawings,...some of the first airbrush work I ever did > while I was experimenting. Interesting. But your (apparent) damsel in distress is wearning a thong. I won't ask about the symbolism :)
> http://www.gregblankphoto.com/Greg'sArt.html > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Pieter Litchfield - 22 Jan 2005 13:19 GMT I have a darkroom that is 8' x12'. I use a linear rather than a two sided work flow. The enlarger is in one cormer of an L shaped bench around one end and 1/2 way down one side. After a partition there is room for a 4 ft sink. Plenty big enough for two people to work with tray us to 16 x 20. Ample storage space. I think 8x8 ft would be plenty big enough with a smaller sink and some creativity in tray stacking, etc. We'd all love to have an Ansel Adams darkroom, but I started in an interior bathroom with the enlarger perched on the toilet. Made some good prints, too.... There are some excellent books on adarkroom layout. Check your local bookstore, Amaxon, or the library. Heres one:
The New Darkroom Handbook by Joe Demaio, et al
I have used it to design mine and found it helpful. It covers everthing from temporary bathroom setups to production facilities.
> I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bob Louie Powell - 22 Jan 2005 13:43 GMT > I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Bob Bob -
You can do a lot with an 8x8 space. The end result may not be a spacious or as luxurious as the space over the garage, but it can be just as workable.
Suggest a few things. First, decide what size prints you want to limit yourself to. You can always improvise to make larger prints, but choose a maximum standard size. Then, purchase the trays. Lay them out on the floor (the living room works very well for this as long as the spousal unit is not home), and measure the footprint of the full complement of processing trays (developer, stop, fix and rinse). Those dimensions determine how big your wet side sink needs to be.
Then, take a good, hard look at the 8x8 space. Are there constraints that you need to work around? Are their ceiling obstructions or basement windows that you need address? Where are the plumbing connections? Either sketch this out on paper, or better yet, get some kind of sketching software that you can use to lay out the room. Then, start sketching how you would fit the darkroom components into the room.
Spend some time at Home Depot or Lowes to see what is available - shopping for ideas.
One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires a lot of head room. What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space? What kind of counter height allows you to get maximum extension on your enlarger column without forcing the head through the ceiling of the room.
Finally, don't constrain yourself to simple rectangular layouts. There is a lot that can be done with corners. In my darkroom, I opted to use two inexpensive kitchen cabinets on either side of a corner, with the corner blocked in to form a counter for my enlarger. I mounted the enlarger directly to the counter, and braced the column into the wall to eliminate vibrations. Because I have a ceiling height constraint (due to a structural beam that passes through the darkroom space), I built a recess in the ceiling to allow the enlarger head to move to the top of the column. The result is that I have lots of space around the enlarger for all the clutter that builds up during printing.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Jan 2005 17:11 GMT > bob <not@not.not> wrote:>
> > I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > > 1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this > > summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already.
> > 2) the space over a 2 car garage that won't be built for at least a > > year. I have the master bedroom in this location. It's bloody cold in the winter and hot in the summer. I have an aux. gas heater for winter nights and summer nights are OK with open windows on 3 sides. For a darkroom it would be one of my last choices.
> Suggest a few things. First, decide what size prints you want to limit > yourself to. You can always improvise to make larger prints For > 20x24's I have wrestled the enlarger into the kitchen and used the kitchen floor for trays. Worked well. Keep a mop handy.
> One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires > a lot of head room. I have a "U" drop in my bench that lowers the enlarger baseboard to 24". I work at the enlarger in an office chair. A nice alternative is to bolt the enlarger to the bench and use an oversize 30x30" drop surface so the easel can go all the way down to floor level. Beseler sells a table like this, but I have not seen it in person.
> corner blocked in to form a counter for my enlarger. I mounted the > enlarger directly to the counter, and braced the column into the wall to > eliminate vibrations. Hmm, have the enlarger grow out of the corner. Let the easel be catty-corner. For larger prints/easels square the easel and rotate the negative carrier.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
David Starr - 22 Jan 2005 23:12 GMT >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires >a lot of head room. What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space? What >kind of counter height allows you to get maximum extension on your >enlarger column without forcing the head through the ceiling of the room. My darkroom has a 7' 2" ceiling. Not a problem until I got an Omega D5XL! The baseboard is 2 feet from the floor. Solution? I got a cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it and work reasonably comfortably. Problem solved.
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Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 15:37 GMT > >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires > >a lot of head room. What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space? What [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it > and work reasonably comfortably. Problem solved. 7'2" should be high enough for the OPs Beseler, not much else though. My ceiling is 7'3" (87"). At maximum elevation with color head attached my 45MX chassis has a couple of inches headroom to spare sitting on a 28 inch high counter.
The baseboard's at about the right height for comfortable burning and dodging while standing (I'm 6ft.) but could easily be a few inches lower. I don't like to hold my arms up high while doing anything for hours on end when in the darkroom.
bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:03 GMT > 7'2" should be high enough for the OPs Beseler, > not much else though. My ceiling is 7'3" (87"). > At maximum elevation with color head attached > my 45MX chassis has a couple of inches headroom > to spare sitting on a 28 inch high counter. Cool. My ceiling is 7'1" or 7'0", depending on where I measure. I had previously set the enlarge up in the bathroom, on top of the washer, and noticed that it wouldnt' extend all the way (but the washer is probably more than 3' tall.
28" isn't too bad at all.
Bob
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Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 23 Jan 2005 15:54 GMT ...
>My darkroom has a 7' 2" ceiling. Not a problem until I got an Omega >D5XL! The baseboard is 2 feet from the floor. Solution? I got a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Professional Shop Rat: 14,573 days in a GM plant. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - jan2305 from Lloyd Erlick,
My former darkroom had 6' 1'' (73 inches) ceiling height. Fortunately it had no ceiling, just the floorboards above. I positioned the enlarger so the head could rise into the space between joists, gaining ten inches.
Perhaps you could make an opening in the ceiling covering to access the joist space too? Every once in a while it's extremely useful.
I'd rather sleep in the basement and put the darkroom where there's a nine foot ceiling.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Ken Hart - 24 Jan 2005 19:57 GMT > >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires > >a lot of head room. What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space? What [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it > and work reasonably comfortably. Problem solved. My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! The first time I tried to make a 16x20 with my D2V (not XL), I discovered my mistake. There is now a nice neat hole in the ceiling tile so that the enlarger head can go all the way to the top!
Ken Hart
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 25 Jan 2005 22:09 GMT >> >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires >> >a lot of head room. What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space? What [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Ken Hart jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,
I was mulling over ceiling height in my darkroom many years ago. A friend suggested making a hole through the floorboards into the room upstairs (the living room ...).
He suggested a box to be built over the hole, whatever height I wished to add to my enlarger space. Perhaps it could have been upholstered and used as a sofa? Maybe a closet in the middle of the room? Useful.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Louie Powell - 26 Jan 2005 00:44 GMT > My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the > layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ken Hart You might check out David Vestal's great book - The Art of Black & White Printing. In it he has a picture of his darkroom, and he proudly points to the hole in the ceiling just above the enlarger that permits him to raise the head all the way to the top.
Even the 'greats' have the mundane problems!
Ken Hart - 26 Jan 2005 18:59 GMT > > My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the > > layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Even the 'greats' have the mundane problems! Yes, I hate those mundane problems, such as people like David Vestal stealing MY idea!
(My favorite expression: "Think how much time could be saved if we would all just accept it as a given that I am always right!")
Ken Hart
Scott Schuckert - 26 Jan 2005 16:08 GMT > My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the > layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! The > first time I tried to make a 16x20 with my D2V (not XL), I discovered my > mistake. There is now a nice neat hole in the ceiling tile so that the > enlarger head can go all the way to the top! I thought of that in advance. Since my enlarger was bolted right to the custom-made countertop (no baseboard) I just made a section of the counter removable, so I could project on the shelf below.
A little awkward having the easel so low, but better than building a hump into the floor of the TV room, above.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jan 2005 18:22 GMT > A little awkward having the easel so low, but better than building a > hump into the floor of the TV room, above. Custom TV stand!
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
l - 22 Jan 2005 16:31 GMT >I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Bob jan2205 from Lloyd Erlick,
An 8x8 space is pretty big, considering the places most darkroom types have used in their past, youth, or even present.
Give some thought to working single-tray. It can be a real space (and effort) saver. I've written an article about it on my website, under the 'technical' heading in the table of contents.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:15 GMT > Give some thought to working single-tray. It can be a > real space (and effort) saver. I've written an article > about it on my website, under the 'technical' heading > in the table of contents. Yes, I've read that before, and I put it to good use the last time I made prints. I still need to acquire the large mouth storage containers to make pouring easier. It should not be difficult to find something -- I just haven't looked.
Bob
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Jan 2005 16:54 GMT > 1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this > summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Anyone have experience in a comparable space For many years I used the closet under the stairs with an Omega D-3. No ventilation, no electricity [ran an extension cord] and no water.
Edward Weston would drape coats over a card table and crawl underneath.
Did I mention how deep the snow was when I had to walk 15 miles to school through the Beartooth Mountains ...
For enlarging & wet work I would not have any trouble with 8x8: Counters and sinks in a U and a 3x3 square in the middle to stand. A small kitchen stool is nice in cramped quarters, if I were doing it again I would get a fancy-shmance pneumatic laboratory stool.
If you have an 18x24" table light-box, a 36" Ingento cutter, an Arkay drier, a pair of old Macbeth densitometers and a dry mount press then things will get tight. With the lightbox on the wall, the densitometers on a shelf, a rotatrim sunk into the counter and dry-mounting and framing done somewhere else I think it would work fine.
You have 18-20 (depending on how you count) feet of counter. With 6 for the sink, 3 for the enlarger that leaves 9 for everything else. A trick will be finding a use for the corners: paper washer (though that can go under the sink), storage (though it is a waste of work space), paper space for the paper cutter ...
There are some pretty good books on darkroom layout, including photos of the darkrooms of the stars. Lloyd Erlick's site is worth a look, as is Claudio Bonavolta's.
-- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 22 Jan 2005 17:57 GMT ...
>Lloyd Erlick's site is worth a look, as is >Claudio Bonavolta's. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com >psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ jan2205 from Lloyd Erlick,
Thank you! I appreciate it ...
regards, --le
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 22 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT > ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m). What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've not sized bases lately but doubt the standard base for a 4 x 5 runs any more than about 24 x 30 inches. Personally I'd like to see my 6 x 9 Omega B8 attached to a few inch riser and that a part of the bench itself. I don't think I'd go so far as to wall mount. I'll second that single tray suggestion. I shelved several trays and my darkroom got a whole bunch bigger. Lloyd reuses chemistry while I use it, metered, one-shot. Metered and with the least fluid practical, the chemistry is always fresh. Less waste I dare say than the "let a bunch of chemistry sit around in the trays way". BTW, 27 inch benches may be just right. I'd consider an 8 foot plus a 4 foot counters.
Nick Zentena - 22 Jan 2005 23:03 GMT >> ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m). > > What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've My Beseler isn't much smaller. Some of it is wasted space in the back but I guess that helps keep it stable.
Nick
Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 16:08 GMT > >> ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m). > > > > What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've The Beseler 45s are a 26 inch wide x 32 inch deep base (chassis base plus baseboard.) Baseboard is only about 21 inches deep, the other 11 inches is the base for the chassis supports.
> My Beseler isn't much smaller. Some of it is wasted space in the back but > I guess that helps keep it stable. I don't find it wasted space if I use it for storing such things as tape, scissors, pens and pencils, filters, grain focuser, enlarging lenses, lens cleaner/tissues, anything I might use when enlarging/printmaking. Even one's timer could go there.
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 23 Jan 2005 16:00 GMT ... metered, one-shot. Metered and
>with the least fluid practical, the chemistry is always >fresh. Less waste I dare say than the "let a bunch of >chemistry sit around in the trays way". ...
jan2305 from Lloyd Erlick,
Better than pouring it into and out of containers for each print, I'd guess, although I've been doing that for years with no ill effects. My solutions die from length of time in storage, not oxidation from pouring, or from exhausting their capacity. I wish I was the sort of worker who used up his chemicals making prints! I'd guess this is a plus-feature of your method.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 24 Jan 2005 11:09 GMT > dan wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > email: portrait@heylloyd.com You are still using a potassium Ansco 120? I'll mix up the 12, 36, 36 gram plus bromide formula then test and let you know. Your email is as above? BTW, that bit warmer due to the potassium, do suppose additional K. bromide in itself would due the trick. Dan
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 25 Jan 2005 21:47 GMT >> dan wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >BTW, that bit warmer due to the potassium, do suppose >additional K. bromide in itself would due the trick. Dan jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,
Yes, that's my favorite FB print developer. Any calculations you do will be most interesting.
The potassium bromide is not the only cause of increased warmth because I've compared the four combinations with a consistent amount of KBr. (The four combinations come from sodium sulfite and sodium carbonate in the original formula being replaced by potassium sulfite and potassium carbonate.) Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although I've only made hundreds of prints and no scientific test.
That email adr is valid, but why not share it with the audience?
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 25 Jan 2005 23:53 GMT > The potassium bromide is not the only cause of > increased warmth because I've compared the four [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > email: portrait@heylloyd.com > net: www.heylloyd.com There, unabridged. Did you know that Beers contrast control A solution is a two thirds strength Ansco 120? Up Beers by fifty percent and you've the 120. Also, Film developers FX-1 and Beutlers are very similar. Ansco 120 is a low sulfite and carbonate version of the two. I think 120 will work well with film. I'll work with it on both paper and film. I've been intending to mix up a Beers A and B anyway. Perhaps that potassium ion could be supplied by some other compound; the chloride? Drop the bromide? Dan
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 26 Jan 2005 05:19 GMT >> The potassium bromide is not the only cause of >> increased warmth because I've compared the four [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Perhaps that potassium ion could be supplied by some >other compound; the chloride? Drop the bromide? Dan jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,
The Ansco 120 print developer formula has always seemed to me to be the D-23 of prints. The formulas are pretty similar. Dropping the potassium bromide makes them even more similar. I'm sure it would be a good film developer. I understand warm tone prints are warm because the grain size is small; small grain implies warm tone. So developing film in a warm tone developer would yield fine grain negatives?? I think Microdol-X used to have a notation in the directions to the effect that the negatives would probably appear brown rather than gray, due to fine grain.
When I make prints, I make up my working solution developer directly from dry chemicals into my two liters of distilled water. It sure doesn't take much effort to dissolve it.
I don't know enough chemistry to suppose about alternate sources of potassium ions. Potassium carbonate is easy to find and cheap, and potassium sulfite is simple to make in solution (although I found a chemical jobber's lot of potassium sulfite anhydrous powder for a reasonable price. It had shipping labels indicating Kodak, so that must have been the source.) The stuff is out there.
I enjoy playing around with it. In my two liters of solution, anywhere from two to twelve or even sixteen grams of potassium bromide are useful, depending. I've also added Para-Aminophenol to it in varying amounts for self education. It changes the 'brown-ness' of the warm-black tone to a cooler, 'harder', brown, but still a warm tone.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jan 2005 00:25 GMT > Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the > potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although > I've only made hundreds of prints and no scientific > test. Hate to act like an Engineer, and all, but what does a color reflection densitometer show in image color change? I have no a priori experience/knowledge of the results and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making some tests to see what _is_ the difference.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Tom Phillips - 26 Jan 2005 02:07 GMT > > Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the > > potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making > some tests to see what _is_ the difference. I would say negligible. Color density filters are designed to measure color layers, not overall tints, which is what a toned "color" really is.
Status A red tends to be lower (toned, untoned, paper base), but might be higher with warm toned prints.
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 26 Jan 2005 05:41 GMT >> Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the >> potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making >some tests to see what _is_ the difference. jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,
Please act like an Engineer! I'll be fascinated to see your conclusions.
I'll cover my a.s by changing my statement to '... my experience *seems* to bear this out ...'. As I recall, the claim that potassium ion increases warmth came from this newsgroup.
Also, I work with Ilford FB Warmtone paper. The subtleties of final print tone do not appear until selenium toner is used. The way this toner affects the print is controlled by enlarger exposure, type of developer and length of time in the developer, plus variations in toner use. A lot of possibilities. I find the most pleasing to my eye result from both potassium salts in the developer and no sodium, plus about three grams of potassium bromide per liter of working solution developer. I like to use Kodak selenium toner diluted 1+5 in distilled water, for ten minutes around 32-34 degrees C. I find the deepest blacks are very deeply warm with a deep purple/eggplant/burgundy tinge. Skin tones have a golden, sunny quality that suits portraits very well. None of these effects are blatant; the blacks are actually quite black, with the sensation of the colors kind of sunk within. Whites and midtones are not yellow or gold, only containing subtle indications of color. The prints show the effects best and most clearly when viewed in indirect daylight (not sunlight, and not too bright, not too dim ...) that is allowed to reflect off the print at a fairly oblique angle. (Speaking of the glossy surface.)
Take into account my less than perfect colour perception! I guarantee we see colours differently. But I've always shown my prints to many people and inquired about what they see. Natalie uses the term 'burgundy' (and just look at the color of the box Ilford uses to pack Warmtone FB.) (The prints never turn the color of the box, by the way.) Black and white is the only way I can handle colour!
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:11 GMT dan.c.quinn@att.net wrote in news:1106433654.614657.201820 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've > not sized bases lately but doubt the standard base for a 4 x 5 > runs any more than about 24 x 30 inches. It's an old Besseler 45: 26" x 31"
Not really a yard square, but much larger than most "home size" 35mm enlargers. I was shocked when I brought it home and set it up on the same table I had used for my previous enlarger.
Bob
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