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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005

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Darkroom size

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bob - 21 Jan 2005 22:03 GMT
I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:

1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this
summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already.

2) the space over a 2 car garage that won't be built for at least a year.

I'm tempted by the 8x8 space, because it's both certain, and soon, but my
I do 4x5, so the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m). By
the time it's in the space, along with counters and sinks, things will be
pretty tight.

Anyone have experience in a comparable space with a comparable enlarger
(Besseler 45)?

Currently all the gear is sitting on shelved in my office, because I
can't set it up anywhere.

Bob
Michael Creem - 21 Jan 2005 23:46 GMT
> I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Bob

That is the size of the darkroom that I have used for years with a Beseler
45mcr in it. My biggest problem was the height of the ceiling. The Beseler
when raised to the top required a lot of space.
I made a wooden sink for the wet side and could easily do 16x20s.
Michael
bob - 22 Jan 2005 03:59 GMT
> That is the size of the darkroom that I have used for years with a
> Beseler 45mcr in it. My biggest problem was the height of the ceiling.
> The Beseler when raised to the top required a lot of space.
> I made a wooden sink for the wet side and could easily do 16x20s.
> Michael

Thanks Michael,

When I get closer to an actual decision I'll draw up some plans and solicit
comments on the design.

Bob

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Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 02:20 GMT
> I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the time it's in the space, along with counters and sinks, things will be
> pretty tight.

I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a
32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space
for working. I find the 2 feet of standing space
more than adequate for 16x20 printmaking. 20x24 is
a bit tighter, but doable. In an 8x8 space you
should have room for that on the dry side plus room
for a large 2&1/2 by 8 foot sink opposite on the wet
side with about 3 feet of standing space inbetween
separating the two sides, if you use a conventional
design, that is.

OTOH, you don't need 8 linear feet for the enlarger
plus the planned sink size may vary. You could put
the wet area along one wall and the enlarger area on
the perpendicular wall at a right angle. That might
give you more standing space and a feeling of openness.

I know a photographer who shoots and enlarged 11x14
and has a space no larger than yours. It's all in the
design.

> Anyone have experience in a comparable space with a comparable enlarger
> (Besseler 45)?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bob
bob - 22 Jan 2005 04:02 GMT
> I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a
> 32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I know a photographer who shoots and enlarged 11x14
> and has a space no larger than yours. It's all in the

Thanks Tom,

Do you think 2 1/2 (30 inches) is good for the sink? The biggest prints
I've been contemplating are 16x20 -- a 24" sink would leave an inch or so
on either side of the tray.

My preliminary concept was for two counters (dry & wet) with the door and
an aisle down the middle, because it maximizes work surface and storage
space. I hate the idea of corner cabinets.

Bob

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Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 05:43 GMT
> > I think you have enough room. My 45MXII sits on a
> > 32 inch counter allowing me a good 2 feet of space
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> I've been contemplating are 16x20 -- a 24" sink would leave an inch or so
> on either side of the tray.

Trays are larger than the actual print sizes. My
16x20 trays are 22.5x18.5 so would fit in a 24"
deep sink (patterson trays.) My preference/advice
would be to have a sink as large as possible for
the space. Keep in mind actual standing room to
work over a sink doesn't take as much room as
the sink itself.

> My preliminary concept was for two counters (dry & wet) with the door and
> an aisle down the middle, because it maximizes work surface and storage
> space. I hate the idea of corner cabinets.

I'd consider the perpendicular design. It might
leave space for future needs. Cabinets/storage
shevles can be put above and below the sink or
if space is an issue even outside the darkroom.

A good idea is to draft 2-3 spatial designs before
deciding. You only get one chance :)

> Bob
>
> --
> Delete the inverse SPAM to reply
Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 09:08 GMT
> I'd consider the perpendicular design. It might
> leave space for future needs. Cabinets/storage
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> A good idea is to draft 2-3 spatial designs before
> deciding. You only get one chance :)

I agree a plan is a very good Idea, I built my first
two darkrooms without one.

I use a horse shoe shape or U shape, big wooden sink
on one long side, counter with enlarger opposite side and
counter and second smaller stainless drain sink on the
third side. The open side I enter at and I share the room
on that side with the houses water treatment apparatus.

Under the third side counter I have a shelf
for large cubietainers, under the big sink is a
kitchen sink stand that I removed the top from
and mounted my homemade wooden "larger" sink,...
gives me shelf space with doors. I have a lot of stuff
including a MXt jammed into the room its about 8x12.
At the amount of business I am doing, I have out grown the
room. Luckly as I told you before I'll be moving into a new house
and building a darkroom close to 2x the size.

I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.
for the OP to view.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 10:16 GMT

> I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.
> for the OP to view.

Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html

smaller images are linked to bigger ones just click on them.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 22 Jan 2005 21:45 GMT
> > I'll put some pictures on my site, at www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.
> > for the OP to view.

Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural
of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves.

Or is it my imagination?

> Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Gregory Blank - 22 Jan 2005 22:46 GMT
> Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural
> of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves.
>
> Or is it my imagination?
>
> > Should be http://www.gregblankphoto.com/darkroom.html

Yep, I painted that a long time ago, I never finished that as I wanted
to use the darkroom. I have always had issues finishing artwork,.. In
any event once I get to "my house" I intend to allocate some real space
for getting back to painting and and maybe some illustration work if I
can find a market.

Quite a few years back I took up airbrush, here's a few more samples of
some uncompleted drawings,...some of the first airbrush work I ever did
while I was experimenting.

http://www.gregblankphoto.com/Greg'sArt.html

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 15:49 GMT
> > Interesting darkroom decor. You appear to have a mural
> > of a naked fairly climbing up a tree full of elves.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> some uncompleted drawings,...some of the first airbrush work I ever did
> while I was experimenting.

Interesting. But your (apparent) damsel in distress
is wearning a thong. I won't ask about the symbolism  :)

> http://www.gregblankphoto.com/Greg'sArt.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Pieter Litchfield - 22 Jan 2005 13:19 GMT
I have a darkroom that is 8' x12'.  I use a linear rather than a two sided
work flow.  The enlarger is in one cormer of an L shaped bench around one
end and 1/2 way down one side.  After a partition there is room for a 4 ft
sink.  Plenty big enough for two people to work with tray us to 16 x 20.
Ample storage space.  I think 8x8 ft would be plenty big enough with a
smaller sink and some creativity in tray stacking, etc.  We'd all love to
have an Ansel Adams darkroom, but I started in an interior bathroom with the
enlarger perched on the toilet.  Made some good prints, too....
There are some excellent books on adarkroom layout.  Check your local
bookstore, Amaxon, or the library.  Heres one:

The New Darkroom Handbook by Joe Demaio, et al

I have used it to design mine and found it helpful.  It covers everthing
from temporary bathroom setups to production facilities.

> I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Bob
Louie Powell - 22 Jan 2005 13:43 GMT
> I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob

Bob -

You can do a lot with an 8x8 space.  The end result may not be a spacious
or as luxurious as the space over the garage, but it can be just as
workable.

Suggest a few things.  First, decide what size prints you want to limit
yourself to.  You can always improvise to make larger prints, but choose
a maximum standard size.  Then, purchase the trays.  Lay them out on the
floor (the living room works very well for this as long as the spousal
unit is not home), and measure the footprint of the full complement of
processing trays (developer, stop, fix and rinse).  Those dimensions
determine how big your wet side sink needs to be.

Then, take a good, hard look at the 8x8 space.  Are there constraints
that you need to work around?  Are their ceiling obstructions or basement
windows that you need address?  Where are the plumbing connections?  
Either sketch this out on paper, or better yet, get some kind of
sketching software that you can use to lay out the room.  Then, start
sketching how you would fit the darkroom components into the room.  

Spend some time at Home Depot or Lowes to see what is available -
shopping for ideas.  

One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
a lot of head room.  What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space?  What
kind of counter height allows you to get maximum extension on your
enlarger column without forcing the head through the ceiling of the room.  

Finally, don't constrain yourself to simple rectangular layouts.  There
is a lot that can be done with corners.  In my darkroom, I opted to use
two inexpensive kitchen cabinets on either side of a corner, with the
corner blocked in to form a counter for my enlarger.  I mounted the
enlarger directly to the counter, and braced the column into the wall to
eliminate vibrations.  Because I have a ceiling height constraint (due to
a structural beam that passes through the darkroom space), I built a
recess in the ceiling to allow the enlarger head to move to the top of
the column.  The result is that I have lots of space around the enlarger
for all the clutter that builds up during printing.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Jan 2005 17:11 GMT
> bob <not@not.not> wrote:>

> > I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
> > 1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this
> > summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already.

> > 2) the space over a 2 car garage that won't be built for at least a
> > year.
I have the master bedroom in this location.  It's bloody cold in the
winter and hot in the summer.  I have an aux. gas heater for winter
nights and summer nights are OK with open windows on 3 sides.  For
a darkroom it would be one of my last choices.

> Suggest a few things.  First, decide what size prints you want to limit
> yourself to.  You can always improvise to make larger prints

For > 20x24's I have wrestled the enlarger into the kitchen and
used the kitchen floor for trays.  Worked well.  Keep a mop handy.

> One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
> a lot of head room.

I have a "U" drop in my bench that lowers the enlarger baseboard to 24".
I work at the enlarger in an office chair.  A nice alternative is to
bolt the enlarger to the bench and use an oversize 30x30" drop surface
so the easel can go all the way down to floor level.  Beseler sells a table
like this, but I have not seen it in person.

> corner blocked in to form a counter for my enlarger.  I mounted the
> enlarger directly to the counter, and braced the column into the wall to
> eliminate vibrations.

Hmm, have the enlarger grow out of the corner.  Let the easel be catty-corner.
For larger prints/easels square the easel and rotate the negative carrier.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

David Starr - 22 Jan 2005 23:12 GMT
>One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
>a lot of head room.  What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space?  What
>kind of counter height allows you to get maximum extension on your
>enlarger column without forcing the head through the ceiling of the room.  

My darkroom has a 7' 2" ceiling.  Not a problem until I got an Omega
D5XL!  The baseboard is 2 feet from the floor.  Solution?  I got a
cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it
and work reasonably comfortably.  Problem solved.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Professional Shop Rat: 14,573 days in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 15:37 GMT
> >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
> >a lot of head room.  What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space?  What
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it
> and work reasonably comfortably.  Problem solved.

7'2" should be high enough for the OPs Beseler,
not much else though. My ceiling is 7'3" (87").
At maximum elevation with color head attached
my 45MX chassis has a couple of inches headroom
to spare sitting on a 28 inch high counter.

The baseboard's at about the right height for
comfortable burning and dodging while standing
(I'm 6ft.) but could easily be a few inches lower.
I don't like to hold my arms up high while doing
anything for hours on end when in the darkroom.
bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:03 GMT
> 7'2" should be high enough for the OPs Beseler,
> not much else though. My ceiling is 7'3" (87").
> At maximum elevation with color head attached
> my 45MX chassis has a couple of inches headroom
> to spare sitting on a 28 inch high counter.

Cool. My ceiling is 7'1" or 7'0", depending on where I measure. I had
previously set the enlarge up in the bathroom, on top of the washer, and
noticed that it wouldnt' extend all the way (but the washer is probably
more than 3' tall.

28" isn't too bad at all.

Bob

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Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 23 Jan 2005 15:54 GMT
...
>My darkroom has a 7' 2" ceiling.  Not a problem until I got an Omega
>D5XL!  The baseboard is 2 feet from the floor.  Solution?  I got a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Professional Shop Rat: 14,573 days in a GM plant.
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

jan2305 from Lloyd Erlick,

My former darkroom had 6' 1'' (73 inches) ceiling
height. Fortunately it had no ceiling, just the
floorboards above. I positioned the enlarger so the
head could rise into the space between joists, gaining
ten inches.

Perhaps you could make an opening in the ceiling
covering to access the joist space too? Every once in a
while it's extremely useful.

I'd rather sleep in the basement and put the darkroom
where there's a nine foot ceiling.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Ken Hart - 24 Jan 2005 19:57 GMT
> >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
> >a lot of head room.  What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space?  What
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> cheap kitchen/bar stool and cut the legs down until I could sit on it
> and work reasonably comfortably.  Problem solved.

My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the
layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! The
first time I tried to make a 16x20 with my D2V (not XL), I discovered my
mistake. There is now a nice neat hole in the ceiling tile so that the
enlarger head can go all the way to the top!

Ken Hart
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 25 Jan 2005 22:09 GMT
>> >One subtlety that you need to be aware of is that a 4x5 enlarger requires
>> >a lot of head room.  What is the ceiling height in the 8x8 space?  What
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Ken Hart

jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,

I was mulling over ceiling height in my darkroom many
years ago. A friend suggested making a hole through the
floorboards into the room upstairs (the living room
...).

He suggested a box to be built over the hole, whatever
height I wished to add to my enlarger space. Perhaps it
could have been upholstered and used as a sofa? Maybe a
closet in the middle of the room? Useful.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Louie Powell - 26 Jan 2005 00:44 GMT
> My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the
> layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ken Hart

You might check out David Vestal's great book - The Art of Black & White
Printing.  In it he has a picture of his darkroom, and he proudly points to
the hole in the ceiling just above the enlarger that permits him to raise
the head all the way to the top.

Even the 'greats' have the mundane problems!
Ken Hart - 26 Jan 2005 18:59 GMT
> > My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the
> > layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up!
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Even the 'greats' have the mundane problems!

Yes, I hate those mundane problems, such as people like David Vestal
stealing MY idea!

(My favorite expression: "Think how much time could be saved if we would all
just accept it as a given that I am always right!")

Ken Hart
Scott Schuckert - 26 Jan 2005 16:08 GMT
> My darkroom has a 7'6" ceiling. I put a lot of thought into the
> layout/design of the space when building it, but I failed to look up! The
> first time I tried to make a 16x20 with my D2V (not XL), I discovered my
> mistake. There is now a nice neat hole in the ceiling tile so that the
> enlarger head can go all the way to the top!

I thought of that in advance. Since my enlarger was bolted right to the
custom-made countertop (no baseboard) I just made a section of the
counter removable, so I could project on the shelf below.

A little awkward having the easel so low, but better than building a
hump into the floor of the TV room, above.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jan 2005 18:22 GMT
> A little awkward having the easel so low, but better than building a
> hump into the floor of the TV room, above.

Custom TV stand!

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

l - 22 Jan 2005 16:31 GMT
>I'm thinking of building a darkroom. I seem to have two options:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Bob

jan2205 from Lloyd Erlick,

An 8x8 space is pretty big, considering the places most
darkroom types have used in their past, youth, or even
present.

Give some thought to working single-tray. It can be a
real space (and effort) saver. I've written an article
about it on my website, under the 'technical' heading
in the table of contents.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:15 GMT
> Give some thought to working single-tray. It can be a
> real space (and effort) saver. I've written an article
> about it on my website, under the 'technical' heading
> in the table of contents.

Yes, I've read that before, and I put it to good use the last time I made
prints. I still need to acquire the large mouth storage containers to make
pouring easier. It should not be difficult to find something -- I just
haven't looked.

Bob

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Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Jan 2005 16:54 GMT
> 1) a roughly 8x8 foot (2.4m) space that will become available this
> summer. It has plumbing, electric and ventilation already.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Anyone have experience in a comparable space

For many years I used the closet under the stairs with an Omega D-3.  No
ventilation, no electricity [ran an extension cord] and no water.

Edward Weston would drape coats over a card table and crawl underneath.

Did I mention how deep the snow was when I had to walk 15 miles to school
through the Beartooth Mountains ...

For enlarging & wet work I would not have any trouble with 8x8: Counters
and sinks in a U and a 3x3 square in the middle to stand.  A small
kitchen stool is nice in cramped quarters, if I were doing it again I
would get a fancy-shmance pneumatic laboratory stool.

If you have an 18x24" table light-box, a 36" Ingento cutter, an Arkay drier,
a pair of old Macbeth densitometers and a dry mount press then
things will get tight.  With the lightbox on the wall, the densitometers
on a shelf, a rotatrim sunk into the counter and dry-mounting and framing
done somewhere else I think it would work fine.

You have 18-20 (depending on how you count) feet of counter.  With
6 for the sink, 3 for the enlarger that leaves 9 for everything
else.  A trick will be finding a use for the corners: paper washer
(though that can go under the sink), storage (though it is a waste
of work space), paper space for the paper cutter ...

There are some pretty good books on darkroom layout, including photos
of the darkrooms of the stars.  Lloyd Erlick's site is worth a look, as is
Claudio Bonavolta's.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 22 Jan 2005 17:57 GMT
...
>Lloyd Erlick's site is worth a look, as is
>Claudio Bonavolta's.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
>psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

jan2205 from Lloyd Erlick,

Thank you! I appreciate it ...

regards,
--le
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 22 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT
> ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m).

What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've
not sized bases lately but doubt the standard base for a 4 x 5
runs any more than about 24 x 30 inches.
Personally I'd like to see my 6 x 9 Omega B8 attached to a
few inch riser and that a part of the bench itself. I don't
think I'd go so far as to wall mount.
I'll second that single tray suggestion. I shelved several
trays and my darkroom got a whole bunch bigger. Lloyd reuses
chemistry while I use it, metered, one-shot. Metered and
with the least fluid practical, the chemistry is always
fresh. Less waste I dare say than the "let a bunch of
chemistry sit around in the trays way".
BTW, 27 inch benches may be just right. I'd consider an
8 foot plus a 4 foot counters.
Nick Zentena - 22 Jan 2005 23:03 GMT
>> ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m).
>
> What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've

 My Beseler isn't much smaller. Some of it is wasted space in the back but
I guess that helps keep it stable.

 Nick
Tom Phillips - 23 Jan 2005 16:08 GMT
> >> ... the enlarger is big -- about 3 feet square (nearly 1m).
> >
> > What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've

The Beseler 45s are a 26 inch wide x 32 inch deep
base (chassis base plus baseboard.) Baseboard is
only about 21 inches deep, the other 11 inches
is the base for the chassis supports.

>   My Beseler isn't much smaller. Some of it is wasted space in the back but
> I guess that helps keep it stable.

I don't find it wasted space if I use it for
storing such things as tape, scissors, pens
and pencils, filters, grain focuser, enlarging
lenses, lens cleaner/tissues, anything I might
use when enlarging/printmaking. Even one's timer
could go there.
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 23 Jan 2005 16:00 GMT
... metered, one-shot. Metered and
>with the least fluid practical, the chemistry is always
>fresh. Less waste I dare say than the "let a bunch of
>chemistry sit around in the trays way".
...

jan2305 from Lloyd Erlick,

Better than pouring it into and out of containers for
each print, I'd guess, although I've been doing that
for years with no ill effects. My solutions die from
length of time in storage, not oxidation from pouring,
or from exhausting their capacity. I wish I was the
sort of worker who used up his chemicals making prints!
I'd guess this is a plus-feature of your method.

regards,
--le
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________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 24 Jan 2005 11:09 GMT
> dan wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> email: portrait@heylloyd.com

You are still using a potassium Ansco 120? I'll mix
up the 12, 36, 36 gram plus bromide formula then test
and let you know. Your email is as above?
BTW, that bit warmer due to the potassium, do suppose
additional K. bromide in itself would due the trick. Dan
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 25 Jan 2005 21:47 GMT
>> dan wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>BTW, that bit warmer due to the potassium, do suppose
>additional K. bromide in itself would due the trick. Dan

jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, that's my favorite FB print developer. Any
calculations you do will be most interesting.

The potassium bromide is not the only cause of
increased warmth because I've compared the four
combinations with a consistent amount of KBr. (The four
combinations come from sodium sulfite and sodium
carbonate in the original formula being replaced by
potassium sulfite and potassium carbonate.) Image
warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the
potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although
I've only made hundreds of prints and no scientific
test.

That email adr is valid, but why not share it with the
audience?

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 25 Jan 2005 23:53 GMT
> The potassium bromide is not the only cause of
> increased warmth because I've compared the four
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> email: portrait@heylloyd.com
> net: www.heylloyd.com

There, unabridged. Did you know that Beers contrast
control A solution is a two thirds strength Ansco 120?
Up Beers by fifty percent and you've the 120. Also, Film developers
FX-1 and Beutlers are very similar. Ansco 120
is a low sulfite and carbonate version of the two.
I think 120 will work well with film. I'll work with it
on both paper and film. I've been intending to mix up a
Beers A and B anyway.
Perhaps that potassium ion could be supplied by some
other compound; the chloride? Drop the bromide?       Dan
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 26 Jan 2005 05:19 GMT
>> The potassium bromide is not the only cause of
>> increased warmth because I've compared the four
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>Perhaps that potassium ion could be supplied by some
>other compound; the chloride? Drop the bromide?       Dan

jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,

The Ansco 120 print developer formula has always seemed
to me to be the D-23 of prints. The formulas are pretty
similar. Dropping the potassium bromide makes them even
more similar. I'm sure it would be a good film
developer. I understand warm tone prints are warm
because the grain size is small; small grain implies
warm tone. So developing film in a warm tone developer
would yield fine grain negatives?? I think Microdol-X
used to have a notation in the directions to the effect
that the negatives would probably appear brown rather
than gray, due to fine grain.

When I make prints, I make up my working solution
developer directly from dry chemicals into my two
liters of distilled water. It sure doesn't take much
effort to dissolve it.

I don't know enough chemistry to suppose about
alternate sources of potassium ions. Potassium
carbonate is easy to find and cheap, and potassium
sulfite is simple to make in solution (although I found
a chemical jobber's lot of potassium sulfite anhydrous
powder for a reasonable price. It had shipping labels
indicating Kodak, so that must have been the source.)
The stuff is out there.

I enjoy playing around with it. In my two liters of
solution, anywhere from two to twelve or even sixteen
grams of potassium bromide are useful, depending. I've
also added Para-Aminophenol to it in varying amounts
for self education. It changes the 'brown-ness' of the
warm-black tone to a cooler, 'harder', brown, but still
a warm tone.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 26 Jan 2005 00:25 GMT
> Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the
> potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although
> I've only made hundreds of prints and no scientific
> test.

Hate to act like an Engineer, and all, but what does a
color reflection densitometer show in image color change?
I have no a priori experience/knowledge of the results
and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making
some tests to see what _is_ the difference.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Tom Phillips - 26 Jan 2005 02:07 GMT
> > Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the
> > potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making
> some tests to see what _is_ the difference.

I would say negligible. Color density filters
are designed to measure color layers, not overall
tints, which is what a toned "color" really is.

Status A red tends to be lower (toned, untoned,
paper base), but might be higher with warm toned
prints.
Lloyd usenet-Erlick - 26 Jan 2005 05:41 GMT
>> Image warmth is supposed to increase in the presence of the
>> potassium ion. My experience bears this out, although
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>and was just thinking of going to the darkroom and making
>some tests to see what _is_ the difference.

jan2505 from Lloyd Erlick,

Please act like an Engineer! I'll be fascinated to see
your conclusions.

I'll cover my a.s by changing my statement to '... my
experience *seems* to bear this out ...'. As I recall,
the claim that potassium ion increases warmth came from
this newsgroup.

Also, I work with Ilford FB Warmtone paper. The
subtleties of final print tone do not appear until
selenium toner is used. The way this toner affects the
print is controlled by enlarger exposure, type of
developer and length of time in the developer, plus
variations in toner use. A lot of possibilities. I find
the most pleasing to my eye result from both potassium
salts in the developer and no sodium, plus about three
grams of potassium bromide per liter of working
solution developer. I like to use Kodak selenium toner
diluted 1+5 in distilled water, for ten minutes around
32-34 degrees C. I find the deepest blacks are very
deeply warm with a deep purple/eggplant/burgundy tinge.
Skin tones have a golden, sunny quality that suits
portraits very well. None of these effects are blatant;
the blacks are actually quite black, with the sensation
of the colors kind of sunk within. Whites and midtones
are not yellow or gold, only containing subtle
indications of color. The prints show the effects best
and most clearly when viewed in indirect daylight (not
sunlight, and not too bright, not too dim ...) that is
allowed to reflect off the print at a fairly oblique
angle. (Speaking of the glossy surface.)

Take into account my less than perfect colour
perception! I guarantee we see colours differently. But
I've always shown my prints to many people and inquired
about what they see. Natalie uses the term 'burgundy'
(and just look at the color of the box Ilford uses to
pack Warmtone FB.) (The prints never turn the color of
the box, by the way.) Black and white is the only way I
can handle colour!

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

bob - 24 Jan 2005 13:11 GMT
dan.c.quinn@att.net wrote in news:1106433654.614657.201820
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> What sort of enlarger comes with a yard x yard base? I've
> not sized bases lately but doubt the standard base for a 4 x 5
> runs any more than about 24 x 30 inches.

It's an old Besseler 45: 26" x 31"

Not really a yard square, but much larger than most "home size" 35mm
enlargers. I was shocked when I brought it home and set it up on the same
table I had used for my previous enlarger.

Bob

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