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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2005

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PHOTOgraphic Film Review, January Issue

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me - 18 Jan 2005 19:03 GMT
This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com contains a
12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must have for all film
users. Enjoy!
Signed,
me

NOTE: I am not affiliated with the magazine. I did not post this for gain of
any kind.
John - 18 Jan 2005 20:16 GMT
> This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com contains a
> 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must have for all film
> users.

    LOL ! A "must have" !! as if Photographic Magazine is an authority on
anything !!
Mike King - 19 Jan 2005 15:18 GMT
You really must learn to control the urge to cross post if you want to be
taken seriously in this group (and not be taken to task!)  Anonymous posters
cause my acid reflux to flare, too.  As do "cute" nicknames that are risqu?
or offensive.

Having said all that; I find such articles useful, sometimes, but not
necessarily a "must have".  And do appreciate you taking the time to post a
notice.  It's nice to seen if anything new is announced (not very darn
likely), see what films are "improved", which films have new importers, and,
alas, which of my old favorites have officially been discontinued.
Signature

darkroommike

----------

> This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com contains a
> 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must have for all film
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> NOTE: I am not affiliated with the magazine. I did not post this for gain of
> any kind.
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Jan 2005 16:21 GMT
...
>cause my acid reflux to flare
...

jan1905 from Lloyd Erlick,

Switch to a water-rinse stop bath! Maybe alkaline fix,
too?

Seriously, a good friend of mine (Natalie, starring on
my website) has had this problem for many years. She
has found a number of foods to eliminate, and rarely
has a problem any more. For her the list of no-eats is
caffeine, nuts, butter, chocolate, and a few others.
Actually, she does use quite small amounts of some with
no ill effect. She drinks (what I would call) weak tea
in the morning, and the occasional bit of butter. Nuts
are a big allergen for her, maybe not for you.

Sorry to be so off topic, but I know how much it
hurts...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

--
John - 20 Jan 2005 05:43 GMT
>...
>>cause my acid reflux to flare
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Switch to a water-rinse stop bath! Maybe alkaline fix,
>too?

    Bicarb.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Udie Lafing - 19 Jan 2005 17:37 GMT
>  Anonymous posters
> cause my acid reflux to flare, too.  As do "cute" nicknames that are risqu?
> or offensive.

He he..... What do you mean?
Signature

In my book its another pointless post from another
nameless nobody. I hope it made you feel better.
--
LOL.

me - 19 Jan 2005 23:32 GMT
> > Anonymous posters
> > cause my acid reflux to flare, too.  As do "cute" nicknames that are risqu?
> > or offensive.
>
> He he..... What do you mean?

Boilerplate salutation. See:
news:banishalthought-01D0EE.14322601012005@news.verizon.net

Thank you for your thoughtful input, when I read it "Idie Lafing".
Sign,
me
Ted - 20 Jan 2005 02:59 GMT
> This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me

Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
round-up?

---
Non-spam e-mail: usenet{AT}tedsimages{dot}com
Visit my Virtual Light Table: http://www.tedsimages.com
 Travel, scenic, and fine art photography
me - 20 Jan 2005 03:50 GMT
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:03:00 -0800, me wrote:
> This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me

Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
round-up?

---
Non-spam e-mail: usenet{AT}tedsimages{dot}com
Visit my Virtual Light Table: http://www.tedsimages.com
 Travel, scenic, and fine art photography

Each has it's own advantages. Popular Photography's Annual Film Guide has a
wealth of data arranged in tables and is intended for quick comparisons.
Photographic Magazine's Annual Film Buyers Guide has more general
information plus some specific film descriptions and abbreviated data for
all films listed. I find both to be useful and interesting. Recommend you go
to the news stand and see for yourself.
Signed,
me
John - 20 Jan 2005 05:49 GMT
    I think they should review 5X7 films. Perhaps the narrower
selection will all them to perform a better job.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
jjs - 20 Jan 2005 13:10 GMT
> I think they should review 5X7 films. Perhaps the narrower
> selection will all them to perform a better job.

Good idea for our new journal, "Real Photography". Among the other topics
suggested are "The Digital Camera Drop", and "Is Color Dead?"

Further suggestions are welcome.
Joe Pucillo - 20 Jan 2005 18:09 GMT
Wasn't it Ted who said...

> > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> > have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me

> Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
> round-up?

Probably not.  I subscribed to Petersen's PHOTOgraphic for a
year, but didn't think it worth it to re-up.  So, they sent me a
year's worth of magazines to me for free!

They wanted the ads (about 65% of total space) in my hands that
badly.

Signature

Joe Pucillo
Baltimore, Maryland  USA

To reply by email, please remove the .xx

Donald Link - 20 Jan 2005 18:40 GMT
>Wasn't it Ted who said...
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>They wanted the ads (about 65% of total space) in my hands that
>badly.

I agree, if you skip the commericals and worthless articles you can
read the entire magazine in a few minutes.  Sometimes they have
interesting articles but them they scatter it out in six different
pages when two pages would do.  Quess it is another way to make you
look at advertising 6 times.  I purchased the suscription thru ebay
for a very low price and I can see why.  I would definetly not
rescribe.
me - 20 Jan 2005 19:20 GMT
> >Wasn't it Ted who said...
> >> > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >They wanted the ads (about 65% of total space) in my hands that
> >badly.

Joe: I don't suppposed they could've sent you a year's worth of magazines
for free because they wanted to keep your business? In todays market place
how many businesses can afford to lose customers?

> I agree, if you skip the commericals and worthless articles you can
> read the entire magazine in a few minutes.  Sometimes they have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for a very low price and I can see why.  I would definetly not
> rescribe.

I haven't seen a magazine yet that doesn't have ads, if they didn't who
knows how much they would cost? Personally I don't mind ads, it's easy to
turn the page and a few are even interesting. But YMMV and it obviously
does. For now though I'll just let the audience decide on these issues. Even
if we don't agree lets be friends OK?
Signed,
me
John - 21 Jan 2005 13:53 GMT
>Joe: I don't suppposed they could've sent you a year's worth of magazines
>for free because they wanted to keep your business? In todays market place
>how many businesses can afford to lose customers?

    Well given that they aren't listening to the wants and needs
of their customers, I can only guess the number is rather large.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
me - 21 Jan 2005 16:08 GMT
> >Joe: I don't suppposed they could've sent you a year's worth of magazines
> >for free because they wanted to keep your business? In todays market place
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>    John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
>               Please remove the "_" when replying via email

I was addressing Joe with that comment but since you replied I would ask you
if you have ever made you needs known to them? My experience is that if I
don't say what I want then I have no one to blame but myself if I'm
dissatisfied. Thank you for your reply to my post.
Signed,
me
John - 22 Jan 2005 02:57 GMT
>I was addressing Joe with that comment but since you replied I would ask you
>if you have ever made you needs known to them?

Yep. I asked for integrity in journalism. I still haven't found any.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
ThomasH - 21 Jan 2005 19:50 GMT
> > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> > have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me
>
> Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
> round-up?

Resolution:    extreme good,
Grain:         very low,
Color balance: neutral
                   97 points of 100.

.... you got the picture. These roundups are all too similar to each
other and to superficial to have any value.

This would be different if they would print just a few lines per film
due to space constraints, but still provide some really detailed results
on the web for their readers. I prefer to shoot a test roll and judge it
by myself.

Thomas
ThomasH - 21 Jan 2005 20:14 GMT
This must be some malfunction of the new Comcast newsserver,
and as I just see, this message has a massive cross post...
I have not noticed, I usually try to reply local only.

Sorry.
Thomas

> > > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Thomas
me - 27 Jan 2005 16:42 GMT
> > > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Thomas

As I look at the article I see quite a bit more information than that but
YMMV and it obviously does. A comprehensive review of every film made would
fill a tome of several hundred pages or a very large web article and is
therefore outside the scope of most periodicals.

Here are the film guides from previous years at the Photographic web site:
http://www.photographic.com/film/

I'm afraid I have neither the time, money or patience to test every type
film. For my part a review that can give me a tip about which film might
interest me is quite sufficient. Even though you didn't reply directly thank
you for your reply to my post.
Signed,
me
ThomasH - 12 Feb 2005 19:00 GMT
> "ThomasH" <henrymot@coco.net> wrote in message
> > > > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Here are the film guides from previous years at the Photographic web site:
> http://www.photographic.com/film/

You are right, they have indeed several nice comprehensive
film tests! Thanks for the link.

Thomas

> I'm afraid I have neither the time, money or patience to test every type
> film. For my part a review that can give me a tip about which film might
> interest me is quite sufficient. Even though you didn't reply directly thank
> you for your reply to my post.
> Signed,
> me
ThomasH - 21 Jan 2005 19:50 GMT
> > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> > have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me
>
> Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
> round-up?

Resolution:    extreme good,
Grain:         very low,
Color balance: neutral
                   97 points of 100.

.... you got the picture. These roundups are all too similar to each
other and to superficial to have any value.

This would be different if they would print just a few lines per film
due to space constraints, but still provide some really detailed results
on the web for their readers. I prefer to shoot a test roll and judge it
by myself.

Thomas
ThomasH - 21 Jan 2005 19:50 GMT
> > This months issue of Photographic Magazine www.photographic.com
> > contains a 12 page review of over 100 35mm films. This is a must
> > have for all film users. Enjoy! Signed, me
>
> Is it any more informative (or accurate) than Pop Photo's annual film
> round-up?

Resolution:    extreme good,
Grain:         very low,
Color balance: neutral
                   97 points of 100.

.... you got the picture. These roundups are all too similar to each
other and to superficial to have any value.

This would be different if they would print just a few lines per film
due to space constraints, but still provide some really detailed results
on the web for their readers. I prefer to shoot a test roll and judge it
by myself.

Thomas
sue crowder - 12 Feb 2005 14:31 GMT
Hi Everyone
I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
years of faithful sevice with a digital camera, any thoughts on the best
available?

Thanks
Sue
piemanlarger - 12 Feb 2005 16:10 GMT
> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue

Simple says simon, the one that suits you!

Ok, so how much do you have to spend.
What type of photos are you going to be taking with it?

Give as much info as you can and you should get a better answer.

Pieman
Juan - 12 Feb 2005 16:10 GMT
> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue

The Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

But I think a better question would be:  What's the best digitcam I can get
with so much money?  Because the best will usually cost more than most of us
can afford.   :-(
Larry CdeBaca - 12 Feb 2005 17:09 GMT
Cruise over to www.dpreview.com
Check out the reviews and forums. Form your own opinion armed with as much
research as you can stand.
Points to consider:
Price range -- beware sticker shock. A new 35mm SLR can be had for less than
$200. Point-n-click digitals run from $200-$500 US. Better all-in-ones like
Nikon 5000 and 8000 series are $500-1000. Digital SLRs are $900-8000
(depending on advanced features, sensor size, etc).
Movies -- most DSLRs do not do movie clips. If you want movies, stick with
Coolpix etc.
Removable lenses -- I don't know if modern Pentax DSLRs will accept your old
lenses. Expect to replace your collection. Expect to spend time in image
editing software to remove dust specks from your photos; dust is attracted
to the sensor while your changing lenses. The cameras without removable
lenses don't have this drawback.
User level -- novice, advanced novice like me, or Pro? Novices will be happy
with the digital Canon Rebel, advanced with the Canon 20D or Nikon D70, pros
will like the Canon 1D line or the Nikon D2* series.
Learning curve -- many digital camera menus are daunting to slog through.
Downloading and massaging require a bit of PC literacy.

How deep your pockets are and what you want to do with your new camera
determine the answer to "the best available."

> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue
Dimitrios Tzortzakakis - 14 Feb 2005 14:35 GMT
Quote:"Point-n-click digitals run from $200-$500 US"
I got the Kodak CX 7300 only for 99 euro.This camera sells in Amazon for
$99.For 44 euro more I got an 128 MB lexar card and an orbit charger with 4
sanyo ni-cd batteries.These cameras make excellent pictures, much better
than I used to be making with my 20-pound Nikon-FM 2 SLR, complete with 3
lenses, flash unit etc.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitri?s
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
> Cruise over to www.dpreview.com
> Check out the reviews and forums. Form your own opinion armed with as much
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> > Thanks
> > Sue
Bandicoot - 02 Mar 2005 02:39 GMT
> Cruise over to www.dpreview.com
> Check out the reviews and forums. Form your own opinion armed with as much
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Removable lenses -- I don't know if modern Pentax DSLRs will accept your old
> lenses. Expect to replace your collection.

Any 'A' Pentax lens will work on the *ist D and *ist DS just fine.  F, FA,
FAJ, DA, etc. ditto.  Only the 'non-A' K and M lenses provide problems.  Any
of the various reviews of the *ist digitals should explain all this.

Peter
Jeremy - 12 Feb 2005 17:39 GMT
> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue

WHY have you cross-posted this frivolous inquiry to all those newsgroups?
The fact that you gave virtually no information about what lenses you own,
what type of photography you are contemplating, how large your budget is,
etc. makes me suspect that your question was insincere.

WHY, for example, would you ask about a recommendation for a DIGITAL camera,
in FILM newsgroups?

Might this be our resident troll having a few laughs?
format - 12 Feb 2005 18:17 GMT
I have been wondering the same question myself...and did a bit of
checking....on mostly point and shoots.....
Based on features and ease of operation....the Panasonic...DMC-FZ20 looks
pretty good.....Leica 12x zoom...5 megapixels...Image Stabilizer.....
Not sure of the pricing compared to other cameras...seems not bad in the USA
but am sure it will be quite a bit more here in Canada....
The SLRs look good....but beyond my needs and budget....ie Nikon and Canon.
Merv
> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 14 Feb 2005 04:50 GMT
> I have been wondering the same question myself...and did a bit of
> checking....on mostly point and shoots.....
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>Thanks
>>Sue

Be careful.  Pixel size does matter.
The FZ20 has only 2.2 micron pixels!  That is  9% the area
of a Canon 10D with 7.4 micron pixels, and since you must
have some non-active area to keep the electrons
produced by the photons in the pixel, the active area
is even less.  The signal-to-noise is horrible
in comparison to a DSLR, or even other point and shoots
with larger sensors.  Check the noise in the review
in www.dpreview.com.

See also:
 Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera:
http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

Roger
Stewy - 14 Feb 2005 14:53 GMT
In article <42102DF8.60607@qwest.net>,
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net>
wrote:

> > I have been wondering the same question myself...and did a bit of
> > checking....on mostly point and shoots.....
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera:
> http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

I think comparing the FZ20 to the 10D is rather pointless. Just look at
the price difference for one.
Two friends have an FZ20 and they have nothing but praise for it. If
you'd consider something equivalent to the FZ20, think about the Fuji
S7000 - lens equivalent to 35mm makes it a 35 - 210 zoom. 6.3 megapixel
with an excellent interpolation to 12.6 - a 3000x4000 pixel image.
Electronic viewfinder, takes CF and xD cards.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 15 Feb 2005 02:35 GMT
>>Be careful.  Pixel size does matter.
>>The FZ20 has only 2.2 micron pixels!  That is  9% the area
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> with an excellent interpolation to 12.6 - a 3000x4000 pixel image.
> Electronic viewfinder, takes CF and xD cards.

The OP said they were coming from a SLR film world and wondered
what was best in replacing it.  Then someone suggested
the FZ20.  The FZ20 produces poor images at high ISO,
dpreview says the images are not useable (yes that is
subjective) above ISO 200.

Also, the color fringing is horrible, see:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz20/page5.asp
(other pages of the review show the high noise, especially
when compared to other cameras).

Then excuse me about the interpolation to 12.6 mpixels.
You can do that with any camera.  But if you have excessive
noise, then you interpolate noise.

The FZ20 camera can hardly be considered the best possible,
which is what the OP was asking.  There is more to a digital
camera and quality imaging than simply megapixels.

Roger
Donald Link - 13 Feb 2005 02:13 GMT
>Hi Everyone
>I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Thanks
>Sue

25 years!  This is longer than most marriages.
jjs - 13 Feb 2005 04:40 GMT
> 25 years!  This is longer than most marriages.

And someone going into digital today can expect to obsolete their cameras
every two years for the next ten years.
Marc 182 - 14 Feb 2005 04:11 GMT
> > 25 years!  This is longer than most marriages.
>
> And someone going into digital today can expect to obsolete their cameras
> every two years for the next ten years.

Not too sure about that.  For point and shoot sure, but once you start
to meet or beat the quality of your old film format, a digital SLR
should have something of the same staying power as a film SLR.  Maybe
not 25 years!, but 5 to 8.

Marc
jjs - 14 Feb 2005 04:43 GMT
>> > 25 years!  This is longer than most marriages.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> should have something of the same staying power as a film SLR.  Maybe
> not 25 years!, but 5 to 8.

For the OP's sake, I hope it is true. But my experience with digital cameras
and compact 35mm has been just terrible. They break in no time at all or
fail in bad conditions.

But here's to the OP - Best of Luck! Sincerely.
dr bob - 14 Feb 2005 16:14 GMT
> >Hi Everyone
> >I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> 25 years!  This is longer than most marriages.

Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years old
and still operating perfectly.

Truly, dr bob
Jeremy - 14 Feb 2005 16:23 GMT
> Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years old
> and still operating perfectly.

I have 6 of them!  Sp-IIa, ES, ES-II and 3 Spotmatic-Fs.

I've accumulated 15 SMC Takumar prime lenses over the past 30 years, too.
Strange thing is that now I'm so well-equipped in M42 gear that it makes
absolutely no sense to start all over again (and there aren't many choices
for brands with a wide range of prime manual lenses, either--unless I want
to go with Leica or Zeiss--ouch!)

Editor Mike Johnston quoted a Japanese camera executive who said that if the
SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lens could be manufactured and marketed today, it
would sell for between $1200 and $1500 dollars!

So we Pentax screwmount users ought to be happy.  I could think of worse
systems to be locked into.
John - 14 Feb 2005 16:48 GMT
>Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years old
>and still operating perfectly.

    Geez that's nearly as old as my Linhof though only about half
as old as my Kodak. Anyone know of a way to date a Speed Graphic ?
Yep, works fine with my 150 APO-Symmar on it  ;>)

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Jeremy - 14 Feb 2005 18:58 GMT
> >Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years old
> >and still operating perfectly.
>
> Geez that's nearly as old as my Linhof though only about half
> as old as my Kodak. Anyone know of a way to date a Speed Graphic ?

If every purchaser were like us, the camera manufacturers would have gone
out of business decades ago.

The manufacturers NEED to sell the sizzle, rather than the steak, if they
are to keep sales up.  And some buyers will trade up an entire system over
the slightest "improvement" in the newer gear.  I remember 30 years ago,
when Pentax introduced the Spotmatic-F, which had only three differences
over the previous model, the Spotmatic II:

1: The shutter button had a locking mechanism

2: The meter came on whenever the lens cap was removed, rather than having
to switch it on (I never thought of that as anything of an improvement--it
means that I must take care that my lens is capped when not in use, or I
risk using up the battery sooner).

3: The lens could meter at full aperture.

Big deal!

But it seemed back then that EVERYBODY who owned a Pentax wanted to upgrade
to the latest whizbang body.

Look at digital today:  Every time the manufacturers add another MegaPixel
to the cameras' sensors, there are tons of people that feel the need to
"upgrade."

Look, I like progress as much as the next guy, but this upgrade migration
thing can make a guy go broke!  We pay big dollars for what is usually
marginal increases in performance or functionality.  Perhaps pros can
justify this, but we amateurs have other mundane things to do with our
money--like pay home mortgages.

If I were going to get into photography all over again, I'd buy a good, used
Rolleiflex.  I'd pay to have it CLAed and I'd get another 50 years out of
it.

I've accumulated FIFTEEN prime lenses, and I find that 85-90% of my
landscape work is done on the normal lens--yes, the lowly normal
lens--because it does not introduce apparent perspective distortion to the
image.

Even when I shoot with my digicam, I zoom the lens to an approximately 50mm
focal length (equivalent).  Carrying a bag of other lenses around did
nothing for me.  Too bad it took me 25 years to realize that.

A decent photographer can produce good results almost in spite of the
equipment that he is using.  The equipment part is of relatively little
importance.
Mike Kohary - 15 Feb 2005 01:44 GMT
> A decent photographer can produce good results almost in spite of the
> equipment that he is using.  The equipment part is of relatively
> little importance.

Well said, and an excellent post.  That's coming from a 100% digital
photographer and tech geek who yearns for the latest and greatest.  ;)  But
I like to hear the traditional sentiments, and I agree that the tools being
used are secondary - it's the image that matters.

Signature

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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John - 15 Feb 2005 03:20 GMT
>> >Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years
>old
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>If every purchaser were like us, the camera manufacturers would have gone
>out of business decades ago.

    Dunno. I think Zone VI probably made about $1000 on my 4X5 and
I'm pretty sure that Linhof has a higher margin.

>The manufacturers NEED to sell the sizzle, rather than the steak, if they
>are to keep sales up.  

    Again, it depends on the clients that they're selling too and
the margins. What you're observing is typical in 35mm but not so in
the larger formats. Unfortunately the 645 format became very
competitive and Bronica finally bit the dust after 12 years of pretty
serious floundering and Mamiya introducing a AF POS that I'd gladly
take an ETRSi over any day of the century.

>Big deal!

    Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary. I use a
Gossen Luna Star F2 and a Minolta Spotmeter F. Perhaps that's why the
mercury cell in my Nikkormat FTN is still working after all these
years ?

>But it seemed back then that EVERYBODY who owned a Pentax wanted to upgrade
>to the latest whizbang body.

    Have to admit, I loved the LX. Simply the very best 35mm
camera system ever built.

>Look at digital today:  Every time the manufacturers add another MegaPixel
>to the cameras' sensors, there are tons of people that feel the need to
>"upgrade."

    Typical of computer hardware I'm afraid.

>Look, I like progress as much as the next guy, but this upgrade migration
>thing can make a guy go broke!  We pay big dollars for what is usually
>marginal increases in performance or functionality.  Perhaps pros can
>justify this, but we amateurs have other mundane things to do with our
>money--like pay home mortgages.

    And taxes. And gas. And medical bills.

>If I were going to get into photography all over again, I'd buy a good, used
>Rolleiflex.  I'd pay to have it CLAed and I'd get another 50 years out of
>it.

    I think I'd stick with the FM3A or the D-3HP. Both are well
built and offer a broad range of optics. Both have the features I need
though the F-3HP doesn't have a very high flash sync.

>I've accumulated FIFTEEN prime lenses, and I find that 85-90% of my
>landscape work is done on the normal lens--yes, the lowly normal
>lens--because it does not introduce apparent perspective distortion to the
>image.

    I have 5 lenses for my Nikon's. 28/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.5,
135/2.8 and a 70~210/2.8~4.0. Each is extremely sharp and the 135/2.8
is remarkable.

>Even when I shoot with my digicam, I zoom the lens to an approximately 50mm
>focal length (equivalent).  Carrying a bag of other lenses around did
>nothing for me.  Too bad it took me 25 years to realize that.

    Well it kept you in shape ! But it's not so good for the back.
I have a Tamrac 747 bag that I'm hoping to sell someday. I used to
carry two complete systems with me when I went for
wildlife/backpacking photography. Thing must have weighed 80 pounds
when loaded !

>A decent photographer can produce good results almost in spite of the
>equipment that he is using.  The equipment part is of relatively little
>importance.

    I can't completely agree. It starts with the subject,
lighting, composition then the camera and film. It all goes into the
mix.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Mike Kohary - 15 Feb 2005 04:40 GMT
> Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.

Like most tech advances and new features, it's not - but it's very
convenient.

>> A decent photographer can produce good results almost in spite of the
>> equipment that he is using.  The equipment part is of relatively
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> lighting, composition then the camera and film. It all goes into the
> mix.

Those things all make the job easier, but ultimately it comes down to the
artist.  Think of how many great photographs have started with unattractive
subjects, compromised lighting, and subpar equipment - and yet they are
great photographs nonetheless.  A technician worries about such things like
if their camera is good enough.  An artist just looks at how to use the
tools he has at his disposal.

Of course, most artists prefer to buy the best tools when they can afford
them.  ;)

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

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Tom Phillips - 15 Feb 2005 06:11 GMT
> > Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> if their camera is good enough.  An artist just looks at how to use the
> tools he has at his disposal.

Anything can be art; whether it's "good" or not is
in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, there's a reason
I use a $2000 lens and a decent camera plus useful
and often expensive accessories (like spotmeters)
rather than a P&S. And there's also a reason I use a
certain film and developer, because it all produces
different (better) results.

Guess I too much a technician to shoot my landscapes
or portraits with a P&S, even though a real "artist"
should be able to get the same results (?) as I do with
my 4x5 (or a pentax 35mm for that matter...)
Mike Kohary - 15 Feb 2005 06:45 GMT
>>> Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> certain film and developer, because it all produces
> different (better) results.

My position isn't an argument for doing with less intentionally (though
sometimes that can be a good exercise).  I too shoot with equipment worth
thousands of dollars - like I said above, there's no doubt it makes things
easier.  My position is merely a matter of choosing not to make excuses, and
not to remove power from other aspiring artists and professionals by trying
to convince them that their equipment must be holding them back.

> Guess I too much a technician to shoot my landscapes
> or portraits with a P&S, even though a real "artist"
> should be able to get the same results (?) as I do with
> my 4x5 (or a pentax 35mm for that matter...)

I never said anyone could get the "same" results with inferior equipment.
But that doesn't mean they can't get good, artistic results.  Believing
anything else is just limiting and self-defeating - why would anyone want to
do that to themselves?

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

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Tom Phillips - 15 Feb 2005 22:05 GMT
> >>> Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> not to remove power from other aspiring artists and professionals by trying
> to convince them that their equipment must be holding them back.

But lack of equipment does just that, depending on what the
photographic intentions are. You can be creative with any
photographic tool, I agree, but limited. But if one's intention
is to shoot weddings, one's need equipment best suited to
wedding photography (2&1/4 is best.) If one's intention is
panoramic landscapes, it's best to use equipment most suited
to that. If I shoot architecture for Architectural Digest, you
can be sure I'm going to use a 4x5 monorail versus a old Speed
Graphic, etc. etc.

> > Guess I too much a technician to shoot my landscapes
> > or portraits with a P&S, even though a real "artist"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> anything else is just limiting and self-defeating - why would anyone want to
> do that to themselves?

I'm simply pointing out equipment matters.

The equipment and techniques used affect the creative results
achieved, whether the image is Holga, pinhole, or large format
landscape. Ansel Adams was often accused of being a "technician."
I think the point is both technique and tools matter; they
shape and define the artistic result. Meaning ideas have no
expression if equipment/tools are not first chosen and mastered.
While I'd agree equipment for equipment's sake is useless,
photographers employ technical photographic controls to achieve
the effects and images they want, and that includs choice of
equipment, film, etc. The image matters only because of the
intentional creative process (tools+techniques+artistic intent)
used to create that image.
John - 15 Feb 2005 18:24 GMT
>you can be sure I'm going to use a 4x5 monorail versus a old Speed
>Graphic, etc. etc.

    Hey ! No pickin' on ma Speed ! Ah ain't takin' no mono-rail
into the field. No way, no how. I did that with a Calumet and that was
the first and last time. Give me the Speed and a 120 lens any day. And
then there's my Linhof. And my Zone VI. And my Kodak. And my .. my...
lack of space !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Tom Phillips - 16 Feb 2005 08:18 GMT
> >you can be sure I'm going to use a 4x5 monorail versus a old Speed
> >Graphic, etc. etc.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> then there's my Linhof. And my Zone VI. And my Kodak. And my .. my...
> lack of space !

There, there, you can shoot architecture with your SG
if you want. Limited movements and I'd prefer a Sinar,
but...

OTOH, I don't exactly consider city streets to be the
field; more like out and about when hiking with a Wista,
which btw was once sold through Picker and thus my Wista
has a Zone VI brand on the front :)
Mike Kohary - 16 Feb 2005 02:37 GMT
>>>>> Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> can be sure I'm going to use a 4x5 monorail versus a old Speed
> Graphic, etc. etc.

Of course.  I said you can be a creative artist with inferior equipment.
You need professional equipment to be a working pro.  :)  My point is aimed
mostly at beginners and amateurs; they shouldn't feel as if their equipment
is limiting their ability to improve.  One recent poster in alt.photography
said something to the effect that there was no point in practicing at all
unless you had terrific equipment to begin with, and I think that's
completely hogwash.  Perhaps I was overly sensitive to your comment owing to
this other recent discussion.

>>> Guess I too much a technician to shoot my landscapes
>>> or portraits with a P&S, even though a real "artist"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I'm simply pointing out equipment matters.

It matters, but not as much as many people think.  You can be a good
photographer without the top-of-the-line equipment, and in a pinch, you
should be prepared to use whatever is handy if you need the shot but don't
have your stuff.

I play guitar also.  Eddie Van Halen is widely recognized as one of the most
innovative and influential guitarists in rock and roll.  The guitar he's
used for the last 25 years was one he built himself in his garage, using
stock components and hand assembled.  It's far from state-of-the-art, but
with it, he created a sound all his own and has made millions of dollars as
a recording artist.  It's just one of many examples where a creative talent
didn't feel like he needed the latest and greatest, and succeeded quite well
without it.

> The equipment and techniques used affect the creative results
> achieved, whether the image is Holga, pinhole, or large format
> landscape. Ansel Adams was often accused of being a "technician."
> I think the point is both technique and tools matter; they
> shape and define the artistic result. Meaning ideas have no
> expression if equipment/tools are not first chosen and mastered.

Your point is taken.  They both matter, but I think many artists in all
fields put far too much emphasis on one or the other.  In the end, both
technique and tools must be reigned in by your creative talents, or none of
it will matter.

As my guitar teacher once said of technique, literally anyone can learn to
play fast.  All that requires is diligent practice, and with enough time,
you'll get there, guaranteed.  But only some will learn to play *well*,
because that requires genuine artistic insight, which can't be taught to
you, but must be developed from within.  That is the intangible I think
everyone can practice and develop regardless of the equipment they're using.

> While I'd agree equipment for equipment's sake is useless,
> photographers employ technical photographic controls to achieve
> the effects and images they want, and that includs choice of
> equipment, film, etc. The image matters only because of the
> intentional creative process (tools+techniques+artistic intent)
> used to create that image.

Well said, and I don't disagree.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

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grol - 16 Feb 2005 03:22 GMT
> I play guitar also.  Eddie Van Halen is widely recognized as one of the most
> innovative and influential guitarists in rock and roll.  The guitar he's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> didn't feel like he needed the latest and greatest, and succeeded quite well
> without it.

Uh.... not quite accurate:
http://www.vintagekramer.com/5150f.htm

When I saw Eddie play live he played an Ernie Ball. And have seen him use
Kramers on video alot. As he changed from Kramers to Ernie Balls, his sound
(live and on the albums) changed significantly.

Perhaps Brian May would be a better example? People have tried to replicate his
hand-built Red Special, and have come kinda close but not quite. Legend has it
that Brians guitar was built out of the family mantlepiece and pickups
hand-wound. Still plays it today.

grol
William Graham - 16 Feb 2005 04:37 GMT
>>>>>> Yep. As if in-camera metering is even necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like most tech advances and new features, it's not - but it's very
>>>>> convenient.

Not just convenient. It's an obvious solution to the "WYSIWYG" problem. It
compensates for any weirdo device you might attach to your lens that steals
light, automatically. It would even work for devices that boost the
light......
John - 15 Feb 2005 18:28 GMT
>Not just convenient. It's an obvious solution to the "WYSIWYG" problem. It
>compensates for any weirdo device you might attach to your lens that steals
>light, automatically. It would even work for devices that boost the
>light......

    Oh now I'm going to have to ask Ron Wisner to put one in a 5X7
for me ;>)

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
William Graham - 16 Feb 2005 08:54 GMT
>>Not just convenient. It's an obvious solution to the "WYSIWYG" problem. It
>>compensates for any weirdo device you might attach to your lens that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Oh now I'm going to have to ask Ron Wisner to put one in a 5X7
> for me ;>)

No reason why not....I'd build it into a film holder....Put it in just to
take a reading, and then substitute it for the real film holder.....
John - 15 Feb 2005 06:29 GMT
>> I can't completely agree. It starts with the subject,
>> lighting, composition then the camera and film. It all goes into the
>> mix.
>
>Those things all make the job easier, but ultimately it comes down to the
>artist.

    Again, I can't entirely agree. A bad subject is a bad subject
is a bad subject. I'll never forget the wedding I shot where the bride
was 3 sheets to the wind when we arrived at her home and it went
downhill from there. Cute little thing. Nice gown. Cute mother.
Handsome father and groom. And she was so stoned that she slid off my
posing stool 3X ! Yeah, her face looked like melted butter.

> Think of how many great photographs have started with unattractive
>subjects, compromised lighting, and subpar equipment - and yet they are
>great photographs nonetheless.  A technician worries about such things like
>if their camera is good enough.  An artist just looks at how to use the
>tools he has at his disposal.

    All the talent and all the tools in the world are not going to
make up for a bad subject.

>Of course, most artists prefer to buy the best tools when they can afford
>them.  ;)

    Chance favors the prepared mind.
    Louis Pasteur
    French biologist & bacteriologist (1822 - 1895)

    It all depends on the situation. One thing we should never see
is a poorly exposed and technically deficient landscape. OTOH,
photographing children can be next to impossible for the average
photographer. Some think that's why God created motor-drives and
rollfilm and I daresay they may be right. The same goes for the
"Runaway Bride" who just can't wait to get her man down the aisle and
get to the party.

    And lets add in one other little facet of photography :
commercial work. The subjects are rarely inspirational but the
technical demands can be challenging. Ever have to photograph a wiring
harness for a missile and make it look interesting ? I have and it
wasn't fun as I had to do it on location as they wouldn't let the
thing out the door.

    Again, unless you have a subject that gives you that glimmer
of a spark that can ignite your inspiration, your efforts will be at
best mediocre.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Tom Phillips - 15 Feb 2005 06:38 GMT
snip..
> >Of course, most artists prefer to buy the best tools when they can afford
> >them.  ;)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> photographing children can be next to impossible for the average
> photographer.

last kid I photographed grabbed my light meter and
threw across the room, gleefully laughing as it
bounced on the hard tile floor. Course I suppose an
artist would just bracket...
John - 15 Feb 2005 06:58 GMT
>>         It all depends on the situation. One thing we should never see
>> is a poorly exposed and technically deficient landscape. OTOH,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>bounced on the hard tile floor. Course I suppose an
>artist would just bracket...

    I'd have to add that to the bill. Had one similar where a kid
ran into the table I was seated at for a reception. I had just gotten
up to speak with the DJ. Camera and all hit the ground. I'm glad I'm
no longer shooting weddings !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Tom Phillips - 15 Feb 2005 22:12 GMT
> >>         It all depends on the situation. One thing we should never see
> >> is a poorly exposed and technically deficient landscape. OTOH,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> up to speak with the DJ. Camera and all hit the ground. I'm glad I'm
> no longer shooting weddings !

Pets. Animals are usually well trained and sober. Course
you'd want to avoid the combination of pets and kids ;^)

Weddings I refuse to do, although there was one last
weekend at a church I considered using my Graflex 22
w/flashbulb reflector for, just to see how the old
equipment would hold up.
John - 15 Feb 2005 18:26 GMT
>Weddings I refuse to do, although there was one last
>weekend at a church I considered using my Graflex 22
>w/flashbulb reflector for, just to see how the old
>equipment would hold up.

    I used the Speed with a Q-Flash. TMY pushed to EI800. Awesome
images. Now if I can just find them !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Tom Phillips - 16 Feb 2005 08:35 GMT
> >Weddings I refuse to do, although there was one last
> >weekend at a church I considered using my Graflex 22
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>         I used the Speed with a Q-Flash. TMY pushed to EI800. Awesome
> images.

No doubt. Not quite as quaint, however ;)

>Now if I can just find them !
>
> Regards,
>
>    John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
>               Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Mike Kohary - 15 Feb 2005 06:49 GMT
>>> I can't completely agree. It starts with the subject,
>>> lighting, composition then the camera and film. It all goes into the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Handsome father and groom. And she was so stoned that she slid off my
> posing stool 3X ! Yeah, her face looked like melted butter.

rofl...well, that's an extreme case.  I'll have to give you that one.  ;)
But in 90% of other cases, it's not necessarily true.  Would you think first
of an old man for art nude photos?  Neither would I, but how foolishly
limiting that thought proved to be, when I saw some of the most beautiful
art nudes I'd ever seen taken by a photographer with far more courage and
vision than I, using an 80-year-old nude man as his subject.  Moments like
that are inspiring, and teach me yet again not to limit myself by arbitrary
thoughts of convention.

> Again, unless you have a subject that gives you that glimmer
> of a spark that can ignite your inspiration, your efforts will be at
> best mediocre.

Mine might be, but another artist might take it and run with it.  Art is not
about limits, it's about possibilities.

Signature

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

         Karma Photography:  http://www.karmaphotography.com
    Seahawks Historical Database:  http://www.kohary.com/seahawks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tom Phillips - 15 Feb 2005 05:59 GMT
>...Anyone know of a way to date a Speed Graphic ?

try graflex.org

Specific cameras
http://www.graflex.org/cameras/

products list
http://www.graflex.org/graflex-products-list.html
Stewy - 24 Feb 2005 02:44 GMT
> >Not to dampen your spirits, but I still use a Pentax Spotmatic 45 years old
> >and still operating perfectly.
>
>     Geez that's nearly as old as my Linhof though only about half
> as old as my Kodak. Anyone know of a way to date a Speed Graphic ?
> Yep, works fine with my 150 APO-Symmar on it  ;>)

I'm always amazed that so many photographers bought a Pentax Spotmatic
at sometime in their life. 25 years ago I met a man who'd bought 2 and
basically gone to work on them with a hacksaw - he ended up with a
full-frame stereo camera with interchangeable lenses.
John - 24 Feb 2005 15:50 GMT
>>     Geez that's nearly as old as my Linhof though only about half
>> as old as my Kodak. Anyone know of a way to date a Speed Graphic ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>basically gone to work on them with a hacksaw - he ended up with a
>full-frame stereo camera with interchangeable lenses.

    Voightlander still uses the Pentax screw-mount lenses ;>)

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Jeremy - 24 Feb 2005 17:35 GMT
> Voightlander still uses the Pentax screw-mount lenses ;>)

Yes, but Voightlander did not always use Pentax M42.  The camera is made in
the Far East and was designed to accommodate all those used M42 lenses that
are still out there.

The ironic thing is that the camera body says "Voightlander Germany" even
though it is Japanese!

I believe that Rollei may be doing the same thing--their Vario Apogon lenses
on their digital cameras say "Germany," even though the cameras are rebadged
Ricohs, made on the other side of the Pacific.
me - 08 Mar 2005 01:23 GMT
> Hi Everyone
> I am in the process of replacing my beloved pentax SRL, that has given me 25
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks
> Sue

Dear Ms. Crowder:
Please tell us why you are unable to start your own thread to ask this
question? You are obviously capable of forging the title of my OP in order
to change the subject so why couldn't you just start your own thread? PLONK!
Signed,
me
 
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