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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005

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Developing paper - always for a fixed time or not?

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Tomas Daniska - 11 Jan 2005 22:22 GMT
OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.

Basically - do you develop your papers always for a fixed time or not?

If fixed - what time do you use? I find Ilford's paper documentation a bit
confusing on this - in the same datasheet (for MG IV RC) they once say 60s
@20C (in the general process overview) and a few paragraphs later they
specify 46s @20C (in the detailed time vs. temperature breakout table).

If development was meant to be processed until the end of the process, this
could be OK (maybe they added some safety in the first barebone overview).

But to my understanding, only stop and fix are done this way, development is
meant to be performed to some *exact* stage.

Can anyone shine a little light on this for me please? Maybe a sentence or
two on whether temperature variations have any impact on development except
different timing?

If this may have some impact on the recommendations - I have a tray
processor with tempered and temp-stabilized water bath.

Thanks so far

Signature

deejay

Jean-David Beyer - 11 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT
> OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.
>
> Basically - do you develop your papers always for a fixed time or not?

Yes: fixed time -- most of the time.

> If fixed - what time do you use? I find Ilford's paper documentation a bit
> confusing on this - in the same datasheet (for MG IV RC) they once say 60s
> @20C (in the general process overview) and a few paragraphs later they
> specify 46s @20C (in the detailed time vs. temperature breakout table).

2 minutes using D-72 1+2. 3 minutes when using Ansco 113 (Amidol) developer.

> If development was meant to be processed until the end of the process, this
> could be OK (maybe they added some safety in the first barebone overview).
>
> But to my understanding, only stop and fix are done this way, development is
> meant to be performed to some *exact* stage.

Film is done until you get the desired contrast index. Paper is done "to
completion." But that is not quite true: if you leave the paper in the
developer for an hour or so (I have not tried this), it will turn black
even if the safelights are off; You gotta be reasonable. But once paper is
developped "enough" it will only get darker by developping longer. I
sometimes do that if I slightly underexposed a sheet, but if I am off by
much, that is not good enough, and I just make another.

> Can anyone shine a little light on this for me please? Maybe a sentence or
> two on whether temperature variations have any impact on development except
> different timing?

They probably do, but my temperatures do not vary much because my
temperature control valve supplies controlled water to the print washer,
and that overflows into my washing sink that, in turn, overflows into my
processing sink. If either of those sinks gets too deep, the water
overflows down the drain. Normally it is the processing sink that does that.

> If this may have some impact on the recommendations - I have a tray
> processor with tempered and temp-stabilized water bath.
>
> Thanks so far

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Gregory Blank - 11 Jan 2005 22:54 GMT
> OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.
> Basically - do you develop your papers always for a fixed time or not?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> processor with tempered and temp-stabilized water bath.
> Thanks so far

There's a technique called printing for first black. What it amounts to
is finding based upon your "standard negative" a printing exposure time
and development time that yield the first area along the clear portion of
your negative whereby a visible separation is no longer apparent.
Typically that might be "for grade 2 about 18 seconds of exposure and
about 2 minutes of development in dektol at 68F" The idea being that you
will have a full range of tones "5 stops" which the paper will still hold
and achieve the 18 second exposure and two minute development.

Each paper you will learn is somewhat different, Resin Coated papers can
develop quite fast and have the nick name of "rapid contrast" fast
development and fast exposure with more narrow tonal range.

I seem to recall that More info about printing for first black can be
found in books like the Darkroom Cookbook/Steve Anchell and various
photo darkroom centered books.

Personally I always tailor my development times per the paper and
negatives printing , sometimes I extend the development time or shorten
it to 1 minute, never less than a minute, seldom more than three...
mostly 2 minutes. Most of my negatives print very well at two minutes
and I would rather change the exposure slightly and adjust the filters
to keep the development time relatively constant.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 11 Jan 2005 23:58 GMT
> OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> two on whether temperature variations have any impact on development except
> different timing?

Paper is developed to completion, no more no less.
It's important not to use too short a time (46 sec.
seems a bit short; I would develop RC paper a minimum
1 minute and probably 90 secs. If you develop longer
you will simply increase the apparent contrast but
not real contrast (i.e., the paper curve as a whole
moves but overall density is not increased.) My times w
ould be minimum 90 seconds for RC and 2 minutes for
fiber in dektol 1:2; usually I develop 2&1/2 minutes
with fiber. This is merely to ensure full development
in _fresh_ developer.

Any variations have more to do with (1) developer
dilution (since dektol can be diluted up to 1:8 and
still produce acceptable results) and developer
exhaustion. Greater dilution requires a longer time
until completion. But even at a standard dilution
the more prints you process the longer you will need
to develop in a given tray of print developer (i.e,
the developer simply loses strength and activity.
The Factor Method as described in Adams' book The
Print can help you determine the additional length
of development time needed as print developer gets
used up in order to develop to completion.

> If this may have some impact on the recommendations - I have a tray
> processor with tempered and temp-stabilized water bath.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> deejay
Sam G - 12 Jan 2005 03:46 GMT
Since it is difficult to control all the variables--temp and developer
freshness--I'd recommend starting with looking for the first emergence of
any image.  Then leave in the developer 5-6 times that # of seconds.  As an
example, when I use MG IV RC for work prints, I usually see the first
emergency of an image at 10 sec, so my dev time is 60 sec.  As the developer
tends to chill a bit or get a bit worked, the emergence time may drift a
bit.

When I switch to FB for final prints of the same MG IV, I often find the
emergence time is more like 30-40 sec.  Consequently, the time in the
developer is usually about 3+ minutes.

This method has worked for me, and a couple of test prints will probably
help you find what you feel is a "complete" development given the momentary
condition of the developer.  This 5-6 times the emergence time seems to work
well.

I am a hobbyist and don't usually have time to do countless prints at a
given session before I dump my chemicals.  If you are printing larger
numbers of images, I'd watch the emergence time (if it is getting longer and
longer) AND the numbers of prints recommended as the max on the label, I'd
start from scratch  mixing new developer.

Good luck,  Sam

> OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks so far
Gregory Blank - 12 Jan 2005 04:04 GMT
> Since it is difficult to control all the variables--temp and developer
> freshness--I'd recommend starting with looking for the first emergence of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> emergence time is more like 30-40 sec.  Consequently, the time in the
> developer is usually about 3+ minutes.

The "drift" your seeing I suspect is the difference between RC and FB
papers.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 12 Jan 2005 04:05 GMT
Almost always, because paper is developed to finality. Film is not.
Richard Knoppow - 12 Jan 2005 14:58 GMT
> OK, asked this in some thread but probably was way too off-topic here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> deejay

While it is usually stated that prints are developed to
"completion" rather than to a specified contrast in fact to some extent
development can be used to compensate for exposure. The contrast is not
variable over much of a range if full blacks are to be obtained but
some papers allow perhaps a half grade from development time change.
Also, some papers, particularly warm tone papers, change image tone a
little with variation in development time. Warmer for shorter times,
cooler with longer times.
At some point extending development will begin to increase fog
more rapidly than the image.
The time needed to develop full black wtih normal exposure depends
somewhat on the emulsion and developer. Warm tone papers generally are
developed for longer than neutral or cold toned ones. Active
developers, like Dektol, develop more rapidly than less active ones
like Selectol Soft.
Most modern RC papers contain a layer of developer under the
emulsion. This is to permit their use in rapid access "activation"
processors but it also affects the development time in standard
developers. These papers show an image quickly, perhaps 15 seconds, and
develop fully in 60 to 90 seconds. There is little variation possible
in development. Papers without incorporated developer show the first
image more slowly, typically at around 30 seconds and usually take from
2 to 3 minutes to develop fully. The instructions for the paper will
usually give a recommended time.  Too short a time will give blotchy
blacks or light blacks despite increased exposure, overly long
development, more than about 5 minutes, may generate fog or poor blacks
despite the long development. My target time for fiber and
non-developer-incorporated RC papers is around 2 minutes, for developer
incorporated papers around 75 seconds.
I've found that judging print appearance during development to be
difficult so I generally developed for a fixed time and decide if the
print got the right exposure or is the right value of contrast in white
light after the print is fixed. Many papers change appearance when dry
so that is another complication.
"Development to completion" is simply development until the blacks
are at or near the maximum density the material is capable of.  Film
OTOH, is usually developed to a specified value of contrast. The
exposure may be adjusted to keep the maximum density at a certain
value, but it will most often be well below the maximum value the film
is capable of.
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
PGG - 12 Jan 2005 15:20 GMT
I typically develop until I see no more change in image and wait another
10 seconds or so.  Is this a mistake?  

> e needed to develop full black wtih norm
Gregory Blank - 12 Jan 2005 20:12 GMT
> I typically develop until I see no more change in image and wait another
> 10 seconds or so.  Is this a mistake?  
>
> > e needed to develop full black wtih norm

If your looking at the no change from the stand point of this is what
I want, I think it is a mistake. Why you ask? Well,... because of dry
down.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 13 Jan 2005 14:21 GMT
> > I typically develop until I see no more change in image and wait another
> > 10 seconds or so.  Is this a mistake?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I want, I think it is a mistake. Why you ask? Well,... because of dry
> down.

In my opinion dry down (as with Richard's comment about
using development times to achieve a change in image
contrast/paper grade), should really be controlled through
exposure, while development time (excluding adjustments
for emergence time) to achieve that print contrast should
be as consistent as possible. The reason seems obvious:
the working strength of developers is not a constant and
not predictable.

Most papers, however, do have fairly consistent dry down
factors expressed as a percentage of the exposure.

> --
> LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Gregory Blank - 13 Jan 2005 14:58 GMT
> > > I typically develop until I see no more change in image and wait another
> > > 10 seconds or so.  Is this a mistake?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Most papers, however, do have fairly consistent dry down
> factors expressed as a percentage of the exposure.

I agree, I was trying to make the point that the time to remove is the
time to remove. :-)

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 13 Jan 2005 15:25 GMT
> > > > I typically develop until I see no more change in image and wait another
> > > > 10 seconds or so.  Is this a mistake?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I agree, I was trying to make the point that the time to remove is the
> time to remove. :-)

Well I'd agree he should just pick a time w/adjusted
exposure and then use a factor method. OTOH 10 seconds
post completion won't matter much, especially as you
develop longer to comensate for emergence time. The
weaker or more dilute the print developer, the slower
working it is.
Gregory Blank - 13 Jan 2005 16:32 GMT
> Well I'd agree he should just pick a time w/adjusted
> exposure and then use a factor method. OTOH 10 seconds
> post completion won't matter much, especially as you
> develop longer to comensate for emergence time. The
> weaker or more dilute the print developer, the slower
> working it is.

 I always anticipate the last 10 seconds as my timer counts down
audibly at 10. So I begin "attempting" :-) to pull the paper out during
the last ten. Sometimes I have been known to pull part of the sheet out
and massage the stubborn parts of the image for up to a minute to get
perfect contrast in a portion of the image,...takes a lot of care
and I prefer "good exposures" to that technique by far.

Hey maybe "I" should claim to be the world's greatest printer, LOL.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 14 Jan 2005 06:33 GMT
> > Well I'd agree he should just pick a time w/adjusted
> > exposure and then use a factor method. OTOH 10 seconds
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> perfect contrast in a portion of the image,...takes a lot of care
> and I prefer "good exposures" to that technique by far.

Hot souping might work better; I also prefer buring/dodging
or other subtle contrast controls. Sometimes I divide the
development using selectol but most of my prints are developed
straight to completion.

> Hey maybe "I" should claim to be the world's greatest printer, LOL.

And A.A. would be #2? ;)

> --
> LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Gregory Blank - 14 Jan 2005 12:08 GMT
> And A.A. would be #2? ;)

Well I would mention names but it might start trouble :-)

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 14 Jan 2005 13:55 GMT
> > And A.A. would be #2? ;)
>
> Well I would mention names but it might start trouble :-)

Uelsmann, Bond, Weston?

Nothing like a good disagreement :)
Tomas Daniska - 12 Jan 2005 17:34 GMT
first of all, thanks to *everyone* who replied - all the comments compiled
together are starting to make a little peace in my mind :)

> At some point extending development will begin to increase fog
> more rapidly than the image.
> The time needed to develop full black wtih normal exposure depends
> somewhat on the emulsion and developer. Warm tone papers generally are

by the way - how do you use to calibrate to the "full black"?
just expose the paper for extended time and develop to find out what black
the paper can give and use that as reference?

> developed for longer than neutral or cold toned ones. Active
> developers, like Dektol, develop more rapidly than less active ones
> like Selectol Soft.
> Most modern RC papers contain a layer of developer under the
> emulsion. This is to permit their use in rapid access "activation"
> processors but it also affects the development time in standard

maybe that's the reason for relatively short recommended times when using
Ilford Multigrade developer... i'll go finding out as soon as i get to the
datasheets again

> developers. These papers show an image quickly, perhaps 15 seconds, and
> develop fully in 60 to 90 seconds. There is little variation possible
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> non-developer-incorporated RC papers is around 2 minutes, for developer
> incorporated papers around 75 seconds.

i suppose you're talking developers of "standard" room temperature (e.g.,
around 20C), are you?

> I've found that judging print appearance during development to be
> difficult so I generally developed for a fixed time and decide if the

especially if you use dip-processors or develop in drums :) that's why i'm
asking here first - experimenting on the topic with such equipment would
probably yield loads of ballast until some conclusion can be derived...

> print got the right exposure or is the right value of contrast in white
> light after the print is fixed. Many papers change appearance when dry
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> value, but it will most often be well below the maximum value the film
> is capable of.

again, thanks for all the comments

Signature

deejay

dan.c.quinn@att.net - 14 Jan 2005 22:24 GMT
>   by the way - how do you use to calibrate to the "full black"?
> just expose the paper for extended time and develop to find out
> what black the paper can give and use that as reference?

With 120 roll film I expose the area twixt two negatives
with three or four varying exposure times. As the density in
the paper reaches maximum black with the longer exposure the
less exposed areas will draw near. It is a ballpark
exposure time.
I use 5x7 for the tests and at the same time have a first
look at the two adjoining frames. The Max. Black time holds
for that roll of film all other factors held constant.

> > Most modern RC papers contain a layer of developer
> > under the emulsion.

I do not think that is true. I've not been able to locate
any source for developer incorporated emulsions. Freestyle
has informed me that NONE of their GRADED papers, FB or RC,
have DI emulsions.
I doubt that any one can point to any one paper and know
for certain that it has a developer incorporated emulsion.
All of today's papers, RC or FB are FREE of developer;
that I believe much much closer to the truth.           Dan
 
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