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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005

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developing paper in tubes ??

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John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 00:08 GMT
I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe
someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W
negatives. I have been learning about enlarging for a month or so now,
and am at the point where my printing results while nowhere near
professional, are pleasing enough to my eye that I'd like to try a
couple of larger enlargements. Currently I am at 8"x10" and developing
in trays. I develop most of my negatives in tubes, and I wonder if I
made the correct size tube for 16"x20", would the same type of rolling
agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in
for switching from developer to stop to fix etc?

cheers and thanks for any advice

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regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 01:17 GMT
> I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe
> someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in
> for switching from developer to stop to fix etc?

 You can buy used paper tanks for not much. 16x20 are harder to find but
I bought two last month. Developing in drums works fine. It'll save you
chemicals and one drum costs a lot less then a set of big trays.

     Nick
John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 01:54 GMT
>  You can buy used paper tanks for not much. 16x20 are harder to find but
>I bought two last month. Developing in drums works fine. It'll save you
>chemicals and one drum costs a lot less then a set of big trays.
>
>     Nick
>  

Thanks for the confirmation Nick.

For negatives, I made ABS tubes that were of such a size that the tube
is 50% of chemical full while rolling. In other words, the tube is in
two parts, with one half being the negative or paper cannister and the
other, equal sized half holding the chemical. When the two are screwed
together they combine to be half full in total. Should I be safe with
the same volume ratio (50%) for the paper?

I think I can make ABS tubes for quite a bit less than I could buy
them. I think my negative tube cost less than $10.00

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regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 02:55 GMT
> For negatives, I made ABS tubes that were of such a size that the tube
> is 50% of chemical full while rolling. In other words, the tube is in
> two parts, with one half being the negative or paper cannister and the
> other, equal sized half holding the chemical. When the two are screwed
> together they combine to be half full in total. Should I be safe with
> the same volume ratio (50%) for the paper?

 I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much
chemicals my drums use.

8x10 60ml
11x14 100ml
16x20 200ml

That's  the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using more doesn't
hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help.

> I think I can make ABS tubes for quite a bit less than I could buy
> them. I think my negative tube cost less than $10.00

 You won't find the 16x20s for that price but you might actually find the
smaller ones used for that price. Unicolor and similar drums are fairly
cheap. The Jobo drums sell for a bit more on the used market.

Nick
John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 11:56 GMT
>  I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much
>chemicals my drums use.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>That's  the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using more doesn't
>hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help.

Ahhh - thank you again. Based on those volumes, I'll be just fine :-) .

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 13:18 GMT
>>  I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much
>>chemicals my drums use.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ahhh - thank you again. Based on those volumes, I'll be just fine :-) .

 One thing those volumes require the drum to be in motion and level.
 
 Nick
PATRICK GAINER - 07 Jan 2005 18:18 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>  Nick
>  

Or rocking and rotating.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 12 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT
>   I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much
> chemicals my drums use.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's  the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using
> more doesn't hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help.

If I ever make it to 16x20s I'll likely be using 1000ml. I may
use, with a pre-wet as little as 500ml. I also use a one tray
processing method.
I use the method in a manner more nearly like some who do rotary
print processing. I use one tray then meter out the chemistry for
one print then use the chemistry one shot.
I compound all my own chemistry. The one-shot method is leading
towards a "least chemistry" result. For example, with one-shot
usage chemistry may be compounded with the least amount of
preservative. I use A. or S. Thio. straight, one-shot.         Dan
Ken Hart - 07 Jan 2005 03:32 GMT
> I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe
> someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in
> for switching from developer to stop to fix etc?

Sure, you can make prints in tubes, but if you are making the tube yourself,
you may want to consider that the wet print may adhere to the inside surface
of the tube. The tubes that I've used have ribs inside running the length of
the tube so that the print can be removed more easily.

Actually, for a "newbie" (no offense; we were all newbies once!), developing
prints in a tube may be a good idea. It will get you in the habit of
_always_ developing for the proper length of time and not pulling the print
out of the developer early.

Ken Hart
Tomas Daniska - 08 Jan 2005 23:33 GMT
> Actually, for a "newbie" (no offense; we were all newbies once!),
> developing
> prints in a tube may be a good idea. It will get you in the habit of
> _always_ developing for the proper length of time and not pulling the
> print
> out of the developer early.

speaking of this... Being a re-newbie (i.e., I had been developing quite a
lot when I was about 10-12, using the "eye method" for determining when to
get the paper out of the developer) I'd like to re-skill myself for proper
developing. I have a homemade dip-tray processor coupled with an old
notebook that takes care of the temperature and timing for the processes,
everything is quite fine up to this point.

Now the issue: for the first few times now (I'm 26 now so you can guess the
idle time I had) I just stuck to the values the folk who I bought the
darkroom from used. He gave me a pack of the exact paper he used (Agfa MCP)
and the results were quite consistent... But I'd like to stick to Ilford for
availability and other reasons. However, looking at Ilford's datasheets for
the paper, I find a bit inconsistent information there.

E.g., for the overview of the development process, they state (don't have
the paper handy, so I just guess now) let's say 60s @20C (or was that 22C?)
in developer and then some timings for the stop and fix baths.

BUT - in the exact recommended dev time vs. temperature table - they state
46s at the same temperature. I doubt development stops here, the image still
gains black density over this time. So?

Anyone care to elaborate?

Thanks :)

Signature

deejay

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 07 Jan 2005 12:51 GMT
>I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe
>someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>cheers and thanks for any advice

jan705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've gone through a similar process, although not from
the perspective of large format.

I wanted to make larger prints than I had been, so I
was thinking about how to make 16x20s and 20x24s. Tubes
suggested themselves right away, especially the concept
of pouring solutions in and out.

However, tubes are a nuisance once they are wet --
getting prints out and dry sheets in would be problems
to overcome.

But, my reasoning said, what is a tube? Is it not a
tray rolled up tight? (Up tight applies ...) Great for
film, since it can be worked with the lights on if that
is the desire. But it is not my desire. I am happy to
work under safelight.

So what about an unrolled tube, then? A tray, in short.
In reality, the key to the situation is the pouring of
solutions in and out of the tray. It turns out to be
very easy and effective. It's called the single-tray
technique and it's been around a lot longer than me (or
you, I bet, even though I don't know your birthday!)

I've been working single tray for years now, and have
found it to be capable of rigourous results, at much
less effort. I've even written whole pontifications
about it on my website, www.heylloyd.com, under the
heading 'technical' in the table of contents.

Working single-tray along with non-acid makes the whole
process of FB printing very easy.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 13:27 GMT
>So what about an unrolled tube, then? A tray, in short.
>In reality, the key to the situation is the pouring of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>you, I bet, even though I don't know your birthday!)
>  

hehehe - I don't believe in "birthdays" - they just make you older than
you feel :-) .

>I've been working single tray for years now, and have
>found it to be capable of rigourous results, at much
>less effort. I've even written whole pontifications
>about it on my website, www.heylloyd.com, under the
>heading 'technical' in the table of contents.
>  

I've read your articles Lloyd and found them very educational. I
originally found you in a Google search while looking for a source for
photo chemicals in reasonable amounts. I did read the article on "single
tray" development for prints, and just may head that direction. The one
thing that slows me up a bit with this process is the amount of chemical
required. Currently I mix about 2L at one time and use it for a while
(not too long), and I wonder if that would be enough to adequately cover
a 16"x20" print if I do one at a time.

>Working single-tray along with non-acid makes the whole
>process of FB printing very easy.
>  

Hmphhh!  I got to your "acid free" article immediately after buying a
jug of Ilford Rapid Fixer and immediately before buying a sepia toning
kit. Just my luck! Oh well, I can always use up what I have and then
change the process later. Good article by the way!

>regards,
>--le

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 07 Jan 2005 14:11 GMT
>... The one
>thing that slows me up a bit with this process is the amount of chemical
>required. Currently I mix about 2L at one time and use it for a while
>(not too long), and I wonder if that would be enough to adequately cover
>a 16"x20" print if I do one at a time.

...

jan705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I frequently process FB 16x20s in a 16x20 tray with two
liters of solution.

In fact, my usual procedure is to work with two liters
of developer, and three of fixer (a pair of three liter
fixing baths, actually). Fixer lasts longer than
developer, so I make enough to not only be comfortable
but to have enough capacity to last for two or three
printing sessions. I often do a session of testing to
see how to print a given image, so the fixer need not
be brand new; I dump it prior to the session to produce
finished work, which is then done with fresh fixer. I
like sodium thiosulfate (partly) because of its lower
capacity; it fits this routine well with little waste.

It can be done quite easily even in a 20x24 tray.

The key is taking care and paying attention. These are
cost free and very likely something you do already,
anyway. And the amount of care needed to cover a 16x20
with two liters of developer is very slight! Just try
not to, actually ...

I suppose I should add a slight caveat about method: I
like soft-working developers (I make portraits ...),
and I develop my prints for three minutes. This is more
than plenty of time to get the whole sheet covered by
solution, and more than plenty for the image to be
fully and evenly developed no matter how much fiddle is
necessary to get the solution all over the dry, exposed
sheet.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

--
Mike King - 11 Jan 2005 13:07 GMT
I have good luck with RC paper, color and B&W in tubes but not so much luck
with FB in tubes, too floppy when wet to stay put on the inner surface of
the drum.  BTW I don't make tubes, I can buy them pretty cheap at camera
swap meets.  The big advantage is constant agitation, this was a big deal
with older processes:  Ektaprint and EP-2, that had such long times not so
big a deal with RA-4/RA-4 AT processes.  For big floppy FB prints use a
single tray if that is all your darkroom will contain and use large pitchers
or graduates for your chemicals.  One shot is also feasible if you have a
good flat bottom tray and can use a minimum of chemistry.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

> I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe
> someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> cheers and thanks for any advice
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 11 Jan 2005 14:51 GMT
...For big floppy FB prints use a
>single tray if that is all your darkroom will contain and use large pitchers
>or graduates for your chemicals.  One shot is also feasible if you have a
>good flat bottom tray and can use a minimum of chemistry.

jan1105 from Lloyd Erlick,

I'd say use a single tray no matter how many your
darkroom can contain! It's not a second-best technique
for use under duress.

Pitchers or graduates with sealing closures are best.
The working solution container can also be the storage
container. (I only store fixer [two containers] and
selenium toner [one container]). Working single-tray is
very convenient. If you want two or more developers at
hand, or several toners at different temperatures or
concentrations, just keep each one in its own
container, and in its own water bath to regulate the
different desired temperatures. (This is all pretty
close to cost-free, as well.)

As Mike says, large containers are best. I like plastic
jugs with a four inch mouth so it's easy to pour the
solutions back inside. The pouring situation sounds
like a hassle, but it's easy if one places the tray on
a stand of some sort (I used to use a scrap of plywood
standing on bricks, cost zero). The tray can be left
touching the stand next to the mouth of the container
while the far corners are gently lifted. Pouring is
actually a lot easier than writing about it!

For jugs I like the polyethylene containers used for
cat kibble. They're available everywhere (supermarket,
convenience stores) and will hold four liters. Try to
find the ones with a solid closure, some have a funny
flap in the closure to pour out kibble without removing
the lid. The flap could be taped over so the jug is air
tight in storage, if need be. I've found many four inch
lids in the garbage (here we go again ...), so I just
swap lids if I find a new container I like (rather than
buy cat food, one could easily find similar jugs in
restaurant dumpsters (uh oh ...).

If the flat bottom of the tray causes the print to
adhere tenaciously, cut a long narrow strip of thin
plastic sheet, such as from an Ilford internal paper
bag, and lay it across and through the tray (under the
sheet), so the ends are outside the tray. Use one end
or the other to lift an edge or corner of the print to
free it from the tray.

regards,
--le

[My legal staff insist I remind you to ignore anything
I might advise, and to wear steel-soled boots, hand,
eye and face protection, hard hat and full body armour
if you actually try to take anything out of a dumpster.
Remember that the garbage does not belong to you, and
be good at all times, especially to security guards who
are ill-paid.]

Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John Bartley - 11 Jan 2005 15:12 GMT
.........

>. (This is all pretty
>close to cost-free, as well.)

..............

> I've found many four inch
>lids in the garbage

..........

>restaurant dumpsters (uh oh ...).

Hehehe - I'm beginning to like you Lloyd  :-) - I get some of the tubes
for rolling my crystal radio coils by washing out the grease gun tubes
from work before they get a chance to hit the garbage - and of course
there's always the good old reliable TP tube.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 12 Jan 2005 20:55 GMT
...
>Hehehe - I'm beginning to like you Lloyd  :-) - I get some of the tubes
>for rolling my crystal radio coils by washing out the grease gun tubes
>from work before they get a chance to hit the garbage - and of course
>there's always the good old reliable TP tube.
>
>cheers

jan1205 from Lloyd Erlick,

Thanks!

Crystal radio coils ... that sure takes me back. I've
wound a few of those myself (exclusively on the ol' TP
tube, even paper towels were rare then). I still retain
my call sign (VE3PIX), even though I prefer the
Internet as a communications medium. Hams won't talk
about anything but their gear and the weather (although
hams have distinguished themselves once again, as they
have many times for over a century, during the recent
natural disaster in the Indian Ocean).

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

--
 
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