Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005
developing paper in tubes ??
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John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 00:08 GMT I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W negatives. I have been learning about enlarging for a month or so now, and am at the point where my printing results while nowhere near professional, are pleasing enough to my eye that I'd like to try a couple of larger enlargements. Currently I am at 8"x10" and developing in trays. I develop most of my negatives in tubes, and I wonder if I made the correct size tube for 16"x20", would the same type of rolling agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in for switching from developer to stop to fix etc?
cheers and thanks for any advice
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John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 01:17 GMT > I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe > someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in > for switching from developer to stop to fix etc? You can buy used paper tanks for not much. 16x20 are harder to find but I bought two last month. Developing in drums works fine. It'll save you chemicals and one drum costs a lot less then a set of big trays.
Nick
John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 01:54 GMT > You can buy used paper tanks for not much. 16x20 are harder to find but >I bought two last month. Developing in drums works fine. It'll save you >chemicals and one drum costs a lot less then a set of big trays. > > Nick > Thanks for the confirmation Nick.
For negatives, I made ABS tubes that were of such a size that the tube is 50% of chemical full while rolling. In other words, the tube is in two parts, with one half being the negative or paper cannister and the other, equal sized half holding the chemical. When the two are screwed together they combine to be half full in total. Should I be safe with the same volume ratio (50%) for the paper?
I think I can make ABS tubes for quite a bit less than I could buy them. I think my negative tube cost less than $10.00
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John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 02:55 GMT > For negatives, I made ABS tubes that were of such a size that the tube > is 50% of chemical full while rolling. In other words, the tube is in > two parts, with one half being the negative or paper cannister and the > other, equal sized half holding the chemical. When the two are screwed > together they combine to be half full in total. Should I be safe with > the same volume ratio (50%) for the paper? I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much chemicals my drums use.
8x10 60ml 11x14 100ml 16x20 200ml
That's the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using more doesn't hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help.
> I think I can make ABS tubes for quite a bit less than I could buy > them. I think my negative tube cost less than $10.00 You won't find the 16x20s for that price but you might actually find the smaller ones used for that price. Unicolor and similar drums are fairly cheap. The Jobo drums sell for a bit more on the used market.
Nick
John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 11:56 GMT > I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much >chemicals my drums use. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That's the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using more doesn't >hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help. Ahhh - thank you again. Based on those volumes, I'll be just fine :-) .
cheers
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Nick Zentena - 07 Jan 2005 13:18 GMT >> I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much >>chemicals my drums use. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ahhh - thank you again. Based on those volumes, I'll be just fine :-) . One thing those volumes require the drum to be in motion and level. Nick
PATRICK GAINER - 07 Jan 2005 18:18 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Nick > Or rocking and rotating.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 12 Jan 2005 22:40 GMT > I'm not sure what 50% works out to be. To give you an idea of how much > chemicals my drums use. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's the least amount of chemical they can use. OTOH using > more doesn't hurt and depending on the chemicals it can help. If I ever make it to 16x20s I'll likely be using 1000ml. I may use, with a pre-wet as little as 500ml. I also use a one tray processing method. I use the method in a manner more nearly like some who do rotary print processing. I use one tray then meter out the chemistry for one print then use the chemistry one shot. I compound all my own chemistry. The one-shot method is leading towards a "least chemistry" result. For example, with one-shot usage chemistry may be compounded with the least amount of preservative. I use A. or S. Thio. straight, one-shot. Dan
Ken Hart - 07 Jan 2005 03:32 GMT > I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe > someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > agitation would work. If so, then could I do the same pour out / pour in > for switching from developer to stop to fix etc? Sure, you can make prints in tubes, but if you are making the tube yourself, you may want to consider that the wet print may adhere to the inside surface of the tube. The tubes that I've used have ribs inside running the length of the tube so that the print can be removed more easily.
Actually, for a "newbie" (no offense; we were all newbies once!), developing prints in a tube may be a good idea. It will get you in the habit of _always_ developing for the proper length of time and not pulling the print out of the developer early.
Ken Hart
Tomas Daniska - 08 Jan 2005 23:33 GMT > Actually, for a "newbie" (no offense; we were all newbies once!), > developing > prints in a tube may be a good idea. It will get you in the habit of > _always_ developing for the proper length of time and not pulling the > print > out of the developer early. speaking of this... Being a re-newbie (i.e., I had been developing quite a lot when I was about 10-12, using the "eye method" for determining when to get the paper out of the developer) I'd like to re-skill myself for proper developing. I have a homemade dip-tray processor coupled with an old notebook that takes care of the temperature and timing for the processes, everything is quite fine up to this point.
Now the issue: for the first few times now (I'm 26 now so you can guess the idle time I had) I just stuck to the values the folk who I bought the darkroom from used. He gave me a pack of the exact paper he used (Agfa MCP) and the results were quite consistent... But I'd like to stick to Ilford for availability and other reasons. However, looking at Ilford's datasheets for the paper, I find a bit inconsistent information there.
E.g., for the overview of the development process, they state (don't have the paper handy, so I just guess now) let's say 60s @20C (or was that 22C?) in developer and then some timings for the stop and fix baths.
BUT - in the exact recommended dev time vs. temperature table - they state 46s at the same temperature. I doubt development stops here, the image still gains black density over this time. So?
Anyone care to elaborate?
Thanks :)
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Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 07 Jan 2005 12:51 GMT >I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe >someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >cheers and thanks for any advice jan705 from Lloyd Erlick,
I've gone through a similar process, although not from the perspective of large format.
I wanted to make larger prints than I had been, so I was thinking about how to make 16x20s and 20x24s. Tubes suggested themselves right away, especially the concept of pouring solutions in and out.
However, tubes are a nuisance once they are wet -- getting prints out and dry sheets in would be problems to overcome.
But, my reasoning said, what is a tube? Is it not a tray rolled up tight? (Up tight applies ...) Great for film, since it can be worked with the lights on if that is the desire. But it is not my desire. I am happy to work under safelight.
So what about an unrolled tube, then? A tray, in short. In reality, the key to the situation is the pouring of solutions in and out of the tray. It turns out to be very easy and effective. It's called the single-tray technique and it's been around a lot longer than me (or you, I bet, even though I don't know your birthday!)
I've been working single tray for years now, and have found it to be capable of rigourous results, at much less effort. I've even written whole pontifications about it on my website, www.heylloyd.com, under the heading 'technical' in the table of contents.
Working single-tray along with non-acid makes the whole process of FB printing very easy.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
John Bartley - 07 Jan 2005 13:27 GMT >So what about an unrolled tube, then? A tray, in short. >In reality, the key to the situation is the pouring of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >you, I bet, even though I don't know your birthday!) > hehehe - I don't believe in "birthdays" - they just make you older than you feel :-) .
>I've been working single tray for years now, and have >found it to be capable of rigourous results, at much >less effort. I've even written whole pontifications >about it on my website, www.heylloyd.com, under the >heading 'technical' in the table of contents. > I've read your articles Lloyd and found them very educational. I originally found you in a Google search while looking for a source for photo chemicals in reasonable amounts. I did read the article on "single tray" development for prints, and just may head that direction. The one thing that slows me up a bit with this process is the amount of chemical required. Currently I mix about 2L at one time and use it for a while (not too long), and I wonder if that would be enough to adequately cover a 16"x20" print if I do one at a time.
>Working single-tray along with non-acid makes the whole >process of FB printing very easy. > Hmphhh! I got to your "acid free" article immediately after buying a jug of Ilford Rapid Fixer and immediately before buying a sepia toning kit. Just my luck! Oh well, I can always use up what I have and then change the process later. Good article by the way!
>regards, >--le cheers
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 07 Jan 2005 14:11 GMT >... The one >thing that slows me up a bit with this process is the amount of chemical >required. Currently I mix about 2L at one time and use it for a while >(not too long), and I wonder if that would be enough to adequately cover >a 16"x20" print if I do one at a time. ...
jan705 from Lloyd Erlick,
I frequently process FB 16x20s in a 16x20 tray with two liters of solution.
In fact, my usual procedure is to work with two liters of developer, and three of fixer (a pair of three liter fixing baths, actually). Fixer lasts longer than developer, so I make enough to not only be comfortable but to have enough capacity to last for two or three printing sessions. I often do a session of testing to see how to print a given image, so the fixer need not be brand new; I dump it prior to the session to produce finished work, which is then done with fresh fixer. I like sodium thiosulfate (partly) because of its lower capacity; it fits this routine well with little waste.
It can be done quite easily even in a 20x24 tray.
The key is taking care and paying attention. These are cost free and very likely something you do already, anyway. And the amount of care needed to cover a 16x20 with two liters of developer is very slight! Just try not to, actually ...
I suppose I should add a slight caveat about method: I like soft-working developers (I make portraits ...), and I develop my prints for three minutes. This is more than plenty of time to get the whole sheet covered by solution, and more than plenty for the image to be fully and evenly developed no matter how much fiddle is necessary to get the solution all over the dry, exposed sheet.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
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Mike King - 11 Jan 2005 13:07 GMT I have good luck with RC paper, color and B&W in tubes but not so much luck with FB in tubes, too floppy when wet to stay put on the inner surface of the drum. BTW I don't make tubes, I can buy them pretty cheap at camera swap meets. The big advantage is constant agitation, this was a big deal with older processes: Ektaprint and EP-2, that had such long times not so big a deal with RA-4/RA-4 AT processes. For big floppy FB prints use a single tray if that is all your darkroom will contain and use large pitchers or graduates for your chemicals. One shot is also feasible if you have a good flat bottom tray and can use a minimum of chemistry.
 Signature darkroommike
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> I think that the answer to this question is "Yes", but........maybe > someone can confirm that they have actually done this. I have 4"x5" B&W [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > cheers and thanks for any advice Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 11 Jan 2005 14:51 GMT ...For big floppy FB prints use a
>single tray if that is all your darkroom will contain and use large pitchers >or graduates for your chemicals. One shot is also feasible if you have a >good flat bottom tray and can use a minimum of chemistry. jan1105 from Lloyd Erlick,
I'd say use a single tray no matter how many your darkroom can contain! It's not a second-best technique for use under duress.
Pitchers or graduates with sealing closures are best. The working solution container can also be the storage container. (I only store fixer [two containers] and selenium toner [one container]). Working single-tray is very convenient. If you want two or more developers at hand, or several toners at different temperatures or concentrations, just keep each one in its own container, and in its own water bath to regulate the different desired temperatures. (This is all pretty close to cost-free, as well.)
As Mike says, large containers are best. I like plastic jugs with a four inch mouth so it's easy to pour the solutions back inside. The pouring situation sounds like a hassle, but it's easy if one places the tray on a stand of some sort (I used to use a scrap of plywood standing on bricks, cost zero). The tray can be left touching the stand next to the mouth of the container while the far corners are gently lifted. Pouring is actually a lot easier than writing about it!
For jugs I like the polyethylene containers used for cat kibble. They're available everywhere (supermarket, convenience stores) and will hold four liters. Try to find the ones with a solid closure, some have a funny flap in the closure to pour out kibble without removing the lid. The flap could be taped over so the jug is air tight in storage, if need be. I've found many four inch lids in the garbage (here we go again ...), so I just swap lids if I find a new container I like (rather than buy cat food, one could easily find similar jugs in restaurant dumpsters (uh oh ...).
If the flat bottom of the tray causes the print to adhere tenaciously, cut a long narrow strip of thin plastic sheet, such as from an Ilford internal paper bag, and lay it across and through the tray (under the sheet), so the ends are outside the tray. Use one end or the other to lift an edge or corner of the print to free it from the tray.
regards, --le
[My legal staff insist I remind you to ignore anything I might advise, and to wear steel-soled boots, hand, eye and face protection, hard hat and full body armour if you actually try to take anything out of a dumpster. Remember that the garbage does not belong to you, and be good at all times, especially to security guards who are ill-paid.]
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
John Bartley - 11 Jan 2005 15:12 GMT .........
>. (This is all pretty >close to cost-free, as well.) ..............
> I've found many four inch >lids in the garbage ..........
>restaurant dumpsters (uh oh ...). Hehehe - I'm beginning to like you Lloyd :-) - I get some of the tubes for rolling my crystal radio coils by washing out the grease gun tubes from work before they get a chance to hit the garbage - and of course there's always the good old reliable TP tube.
cheers
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 12 Jan 2005 20:55 GMT ...
>Hehehe - I'm beginning to like you Lloyd :-) - I get some of the tubes >for rolling my crystal radio coils by washing out the grease gun tubes >from work before they get a chance to hit the garbage - and of course >there's always the good old reliable TP tube. > >cheers jan1205 from Lloyd Erlick,
Thanks!
Crystal radio coils ... that sure takes me back. I've wound a few of those myself (exclusively on the ol' TP tube, even paper towels were rare then). I still retain my call sign (VE3PIX), even though I prefer the Internet as a communications medium. Hams won't talk about anything but their gear and the weather (although hams have distinguished themselves once again, as they have many times for over a century, during the recent natural disaster in the Indian Ocean).
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
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