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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / January 2005Any experience w/paper-emulsion defects?
I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm wondering if anyone has experienced similar problems with this or other papers (not just Seagull) and can comment. Historically, I've noticed a few defective sheets in a box of paper, but lately it's been on the order of 20 to 40 percent of the total (50 sheet box.) I've contacted and and sent examples to Oriental USA; their response was to send me a replacement yet stated that they think it's not the paper (i.e., is my fault.) I disagree. Problem is the amount of time and effort wasted when thirty to forty percent of my darkroom labor is unusable due to these defects. So, I'm wondering if others have similar experience. Description: the defects typically occur as white, thin hair or speck-like areas with no apparent emulsion (i.e. areas of paper base only) _even_ after thoroughly dusting the negative and enlarger. They have very sharp edges impossible to spot, whereas dust typically has diffuse edges. One print will be free of these defects, the next will have a defect. I'm convinced it is not due to _my_ hair or dust, since immediately upon seeing a print with one of these hairs or specks I have thoroughly dusted the negative, lens, and easel using compressed air at 70-80 psi. I did not change negatives or lenses. For several prints there may not be any defect, yet suddenly several defects will appear (usually in succession.) I speculate there exists a dirty environment when coating the paper emulsion during manufacture. Enlarged scans ( http://members.aol.com/nospam777/defect ) shows a typical defect: a long, thin hairline which did not show up on either the print immediately before or the print immediately after. Additional defects hairline or specks) followed it. Any input would be appreciated. TIA I also use Oriental Seagull paper and have noticed the same types of problems. Fortunatly they are few and far between and not enough to get me to stop using their paper. Like you I first thought that the problem was mine. After all with two cats small hairs and dander in the air is a reality of my life. Even getting three Ionic Breeze air cleaners doesn't get rid of it all!! As a result I first thought the problem was mine. Then I started to notice that some pieces of paper had what looked like dust spots and others didn't even though I did nothing with the enlarger or negative. When I put a number of pieces of paper straight from the box into fixer and got the "dust spots" I knew it was the paper. Fortunatly I've got a good relationship with the stores I buy my paper from and they give me a new box when I complain about a problem with the paper. On the positive side they don't ask for the old one back very often. :-) : I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion : defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : labor is unusable due to these defects. So, I'm : wondering if others have similar experience. : Description: the defects typically occur as white, thin : hair or speck-like areas with no apparent emulsion [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : diffuse edges. One print will be free of these defects, : the next will have a defect. : I'm convinced it is not due to _my_ hair or dust, since : immediately upon seeing a print with one of these hairs [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : exists a dirty environment when coating the paper : emulsion during manufacture. : Enlarged scans ( : http://members.aol.com/nospam777/defect ) shows a : typical defect: a long, thin hairline which did not : show up on either the print immediately before or the : print immediately after. Additional defects hairline or : specks) followed it. : Any input would be appreciated. TIA  SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > I also use Oriental Seagull paper and have noticed the > same types of problems. Fortunatly they are few and far [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > when I complain about a problem with the paper. On the positive > side they don't ask for the old one back very often. :-) Frank: Oriental USA also has replaced some paper. But doesn't lessen the frustration of 12+ hours spent in the darkroom printing only to waste effort. This is not a new problem. Going back nearly 20 years I've always had a few defective sheets with Oriental (which is my favorite paper), so I know it wasn't due to my dust. I'm rather fastidious about dust. But of late the defects have seriously interfered with my printing of fine art prints. Two questions: Did you or your retailers contact Oriental? Did you keep and document the defective sheets? Oriental's representative is a nice guy, but seems to be in denial. > : I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion > : defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > ------------------- > fwp@deepthought.com > Frank: Oriental USA also has replaced some paper. But > doesn't lessen the frustration of 12+ hours spent in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > defects have seriously interfered with my printing > of fine art prints. I am going to burst in here and share a perspective of one that use to frequently handle these issues. One thing that frustrated me to no end, was having some nit wit sales person between me and the consumer, I would get boxes back as defective without samples of the problem,....it is very important to isolate problems by looking at what the problem is. Yours sounds like the emulsion is flaking off the surface perhaps during washing, have you noticed the problem prior to washing? Are you exceeding a normal one hour wash? Are you storing the fiber prints longer than several hours in a water bath prior to washing. Sometimes Forte with exhibit such problems when the paper has been stored at length prior to wash. Then again sometimes the emulsions are just plain overly brittle. I have also seen hair line dark lines lengthwise as a result of the paper being dragged across the cutting blades at the plant, actually I have seen a multitude of issues most people never get a chance to experience or for that matter want to. If they did most would probably hang up the camera,....any chance you can post or email me a scanned section from the print....if so keep it under an mb. Take care and have a good New Years!!! greg@<remove>gregblankphoto.com SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > Frank: Oriental USA also has replaced some paper. But > > doesn't lessen the frustration of 12+ hours spent in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I am going to burst in here and share a perspective of one that use > to frequently handle these issues. Customer service? > One thing that frustrated me > to no end, was having some nit wit sales person between me and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > surface perhaps during washing, have you noticed the problem prior to > washing? The defects are always first noticed after fixing, since it's more difficult to see them under safelight. The emulsion isn't flaking as there are no ragged edges. In fact, if you look at the example I scanned it's a rather long arching line, as if there were some sort of break in the continuity of the emulsion. This is typical. > Are you exceeding a normal one hour wash? Are you storing the fiber > prints longer than several hours in a water bath prior to washing. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > section from the print....if so keep it under an mb. Take care and have > a good New Years!!! The URL in my orig post... > greg@<remove>gregblankphoto.com > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > I am going to burst in here and share a perspective of one that use > > to frequently handle these issues. > > Customer service? I did customer service and technical support paper testing at Omega for about 5 years, for Forte Paper. > The URL in my orig post... Can you repost that I think I missed it. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > The URL in my orig post... Got it (The URl), Looks like something actually was contacting the paper while being coated,....normally scratches occurring after caoting would be black, unless very deep to the base as you describe. Is it my imagination or is the base of the circle at the mountains slightly out of focus adjacent to the circle about a cm 1/2 (left of the white line)? The dark uneveness could be bromide drag or an indication the emulsion was not coating properly. Just some out loud thoughts. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > The URL in my orig post... > > Got it (The URl), Looks like something actually was contacting the paper > while being coated,....normally scratches occurring after caoting would > be black, unless very deep to the base as you describe. That's my assessment. What I was wondering is if anyone has knowledge of that process, i.e., how it would happen and how common it is. > Is it my imagination or is the base of the circle at the mountains > slightly out of focus adjacent to the circle about a cm 1/2 (left of the > white line)? It's a low DPI scan (at screen res), plus probably just didn't sharpen it. Defect and peaks are tack sharp on the print. > The dark uneveness could be bromide drag or an indication the emulsion > was not coating properly. > > Just some out loud thoughts. Oriental rep has said I'm the only one who has complained. I don't believe them, especially given Frank's similar experience. Paper returned to a dealer will always be sent back to Oriental; the retailer isn't going to refund and then eat the cost of replacement. > -- > LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > That's my assessment. What I was wondering is if > anyone has knowledge of that process, i.e., how > it would happen and how common it is. Basically a Cascade machine (name of the coating apparatus) is a series of jets or nozzles like a sprinkler system that sprays the the emulsion onto the paper very evenly, as the paper is feeding through the machine (to my understanding like a web press of sorts without the impression blanket) . Perhaps some bit of thread or something contacted the wet emulsion as it passed or as it was in process of drying. Is that same mark on every sheet? Could even be a part of the cutting device that contacted the sheet a bit to hard as the sheets were cut and stacked but who knows. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > That's my assessment. What I was wondering is if > > anyone has knowledge of that process, i.e., how [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > contacted the sheet a bit to hard as the sheets were cut and stacked but > who knows. Different marks/defects show up, but overall consistently either sharp angular specks or hair/thread-like ones. Your explanation makes sense. Spraying the coating would easily trap any debris on the paper. Thanks. > -- > LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 : > I also use Oriental Seagull paper and have noticed the : > same types of problems. Fortunatly they are few and far [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] : > when I complain about a problem with the paper. On the positive : > side they don't ask for the old one back very often. :-) : Frank: Oriental USA also has replaced some paper. But : doesn't lessen the frustration of 12+ hours spent in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : defects have seriously interfered with my printing : of fine art prints. I can normally spot the problems after fixing under actual light as it's not normally visable under safe light. I must be just lucky and only get a few if any in a box of paper so when I see a problem with a print I just make make another print. It is a pain though. : Two questions: Did you or your retailers contact Oriental? : Did you keep and document the defective sheets? Oriental's : representative is a nice guy, but seems to be in denial. I never spoke to anyone at Oriental about the problem and I don't know if my dealer is. Fortunatly my local dealers know me well enough that they don't give me a hard time when I come in with sheets of "defective" paper. : > : I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion : > : defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] : > ------------------- : > fwp@deepthought.com SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > : > I also use Oriental Seagull paper and have noticed the > : > same types of problems. Fortunatly they are few and far [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > that they don't give me a hard time when I come in with sheets of > "defective" paper. Typically the paper would be sent back to Oriental. They've claimed I'm the only one who's had a problem with any batch. I don't believe them. > : > : I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion > : > : defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > ------------------- > fwp@deepthought.com > I've been experiencing what I believe are emulsion > defects when printing on Oriental Seagull paper. I'm [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > diffuse edges. One print will be free of these defects, > the next will have a defect. I have had a couple of similar experiences. In both cases, the defect affected the entire package of paper. Case 1 involved at 25 sheet package of 11x14 Forte paper. There appeared to be a spot on the paper that had been exposed to light. I would get a deep shadow in the same spot on every print. When I changed to a different paper, the spot disappeared. I had a similar experience with a package of Kodak paper where there was a pinhole in the black plastic inner wrapper, but I could never find a similar hole in the Forte bag. This occurred many years ago, and I ended up throwing out the paper. Case 2 was with a 50 sheet box of 8x10 matte surface Orwo paper that I purchased from Freestyle (aka "Germany's Finest") for hand coloring. This is a very nice paper, very similar to old-style Agfa. Apparently this batch had been at the edge of a large roll, because there was a strip about 1/2" wide along the 10" dimension of every sheet where there was no emulsion. Once I recognized what was happening I simply recalibrated by printing to leave a border. Things like this happen - you simply have to maintain a sense of humor. If the problem is serious, it's worth notifying the manufacturer who will ususally do something to make it up to you. When I mentioned the Orwo problem to one of the sales clerks at Freestyle a few years later he offered to replace the paper - but in that case I had been able to compensate and had used (and enjoyed) the paper. In another instance, I purchased some sepia toner from Kodak and found that the toner package was empty. When I notified Kodak, they sent me several replacement packages as compensation for my trouble. |
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