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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004dangerous chemicals
i've just a little question for you: in your opinion, are the following products carcinogenic, or carcinogenic suspected ? negative film developer: kodak xtol paper developers: kodak ektaflo, kodak selectol thanks! In my opinion - which is based on nothing more than not remembering seeing anything on the labeling - nope, not unless you're planning on drinking them. Prolonged exposure in the place that makes the raw components? probably. Exposure in a Kodak factory compounding the formulas? less likely. Exposure in a commercial lab processing paper or film everyday, hardly possible. Home darkroom, not very likely at all! Fed to lab rats at prodigious rates to get a reaction? Absolutely. My wife once worked for a microbiologist that was phobic about germs--not a very happy man! If you are that concerned about cancer you should probably take up a different hobby, but note that carcinogens exist in every place that we live, work, and play. Processed foods, cigarette smoke, second-hand cigarette smoke, red wine, processed meats, building products, paints, varnishes, adhesives, insulation, automobile exhaust (especially diesel), power plant emissions, and a lot of so-called natural products. It's all about limiting you cumulative exposure. For me the benefits outweigh the risks, the rewards are worth the exposure. I am always careful working around chemicals, power tools, electricity, firearms, etc. All hobbies have risks and precautions associated with the safe practice of the skills involved.  Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > i've just a little question for you: > in your opinion, are the following products carcinogenic, or carcinogenic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > thanks! >If you are that concerned about cancer you should probably > take up a different hobby, but note that carcinogens exist in every place > that we live, work, and play. Processed foods, cigarette smoke, second-hand > cigarette smoke, red wine, processed meats, building products, paints, > varnishes, adhesives, insulation, automobile exhaust (especially diesel), > power plant emissions, """COMPUTER SCREENS,.. OH - MY - GOD""" We are dying by the "Nanue" Second ;-) SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > If you are that concerned about cancer you should probably > > take up a different hobby, but note that carcinogens exist in every place > > that we live, work, and play. Processed foods, cigarette smoke, second-hand > > cigarette smoke, red wine, processed meats, building products, paints, > > varnishes, adhesives, insulation, automobile exhaust (especially diesel), > > power plant emissions, yes, i know that dangers of carcinogens exist everywhere, but i prefer to be as far as i can from all of these substances. here's why i was searching the internet for development products that can't expose me to this risk, because i like darkroom hobby very much! I've discovered that these 2 products : kodak xtol (film developer) kodak selectol soft (paper developer) don't have the hydroquinone in their formulas (i've read them on their data sheets...). so, i was asking myself if these products can't expose people to cancer risk... but i'm not an expert... ... if someone of you can download the data sheets of these 2 products, at the site http://msds.kodak.com/ehswww/external/index.jsp can give me a confimation ? thanks very much, and happy holidays !!!! > > > If you are that concerned about cancer you should probably > > > take up a different hobby, but note that carcinogens exist in every [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > thanks very much, and happy holidays !!!! Hydroquinone is probably used for more than a century, it's carcinogen properties have been indicated only recently. As an example, France obliged shops to keep products containing hydroquinone in closed cupboards a couple of years ago, before that it was publicly available on the shelves. And the reason was because some black people used it to whiten their skin (!) ... Who can assure you that in your hydroquinone-free developer there isn't a chemical that will be considered as a potential carcinogen (or harmful in another way) in ten years ? I can't ... Treat the chemicals with respect as others already mentioned it. I don't think any of us, including the radioactive ones :-)), are prone to that any risk with their life. As you still seem to have an hydroquinone phobia, you mentioned Xtol which is a very good choice: I use it because it is an excellent developer not because it is hydroquinone-free. You mentioned Selectol soft. As its name implies, it is a developer giving a softer contrast than classic developers. Not what I call a "standard" paper developer. Useful with graded papers but not that much with VC papers. You may also encounter difficulties to find it, it is not more very common. I already indicated you in another post that Agfa Neutol Plus is a paper developer using Vitamin C instead of hydroquinone. It is much more available in Europe than Selectol Soft. Don't confuse the _Plus_ version with the _NE_ (Neutral tone) or _WA_ (Warm tone) versions of Neutol (available in liquid and powder forms), these are classic metol/hydroquinone paper developers (and good/cheap ones). Best regards, Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch If you want to avoid dangerous chemicals, then be sure to stay away from pyro developers (pyrogallol/catechin/catechol/pyrocatechin), as they are deadly when absorbed through the skin (liquids) or inhaled (powders). They give beautiful results, but should only be used with great precaution. >> > If you are that concerned about cancer you should probably >> > take up a different hobby, but note that carcinogens exist in every [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > thanks very much, and happy holidays !!!! > If you want to avoid dangerous chemicals, then be sure to stay away from > pyro developers (pyrogallol/catechin/catechol/pyrocatechin), as they are > deadly > when absorbed through the skin (liquids) or inhaled (powders). They give > beautiful results, but should only be used with great precaution. Actually the powder is the only part of Pyro you need to be extra careful with, as it can burn the skin and you don't want to inhale it. Once in liquid form just exercise normal chemical handling precautions, using gloves and don't drink it, and wash it off if you get some skin contacted with it. <Just common sense stuff.> SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Right, you *do* need to use gloves--it's dangerous to soak your hands in it (such as when tray developing sheet film). >> If you want to avoid dangerous chemicals, then be sure to stay away from >> pyro developers (pyrogallol/catechin/catechol/pyrocatechin), as they are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > <Just common sense stuff.> >Right, you *do* need to use gloves--it's dangerous to soak your hands in it >(such as >when tray developing sheet film). Gads ! I wonder how Ansel ever survived the '30's ? !! Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email > >Right, you *do* need to use gloves--it's dangerous to soak your hands in it > >(such as > >when tray developing sheet film). > > Gads ! I wonder how Ansel ever survived the '30's ? !! Funny you should say that. My new Adams 2005 calendar (Xmas present) has several images from the 30s, and I know Ansel didn't die of cancer 50 years later at the age of 83 :) I generally wear latex or nitrile gloves for more toxic chems like _selenium_. But never for hydroquinone. An allergen to some, yes. Hydroquinone is often listed as a possible carcinogen, but the FDA approved _sodium nitrate_ in supermarket bologna and other commonly consumed meats is easily a more hazardous (_proven_) carcinogen than hydroquinone. Course I don't eat processed meats and hope to outlive Adams :) Richard J. Henry, a licensed MD and author of Controls in Black and White photograpy, stated the overzealous admonishions about the hazards of common darkroom chemistry he often encountered were "strange and questionable..." Then stated he himself never wore gloves for common darkoom agents like hydroquinone. FACT: Pyro can make some slightly ill, including your's truly. Other agents do not. It depends entirely on the individual. But "deadly"? I don't think so... > Regards, > > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org > Please remove the "_" when replying via email RE: John wrote: Gads! I wonder how Ansel ever survived the '30's ? !! > Regards, > > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org > > Please remove the "_" when replying via email T'was the mittens saved the man! That must be it! Dan I do recall reading somewhere that a description of Edward Weston (1886-1958) remarked on the dark stains and discoloration of his fingers/fingernails. I think he used a lot more pyro than Adams. (just a guess) If you do the math he was 70-something when he passed on. Signaturedarkroommike ---------- > > >Right, you *do* need to use gloves--it's dangerous to soak your hands in it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org > Please remove the "_" when replying via email > I do recall reading somewhere that a description of Edward Weston > (1886-1958) remarked on the dark stains and discoloration of his > fingers/fingernails. I think he used a lot more pyro than Adams. (just a > guess) If you do the math he was 70-something when he passed on. Weston used Amidol paper developer, which makes the finger nails black. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 >> I do recall reading somewhere that a description of Edward Weston >> (1886-1958) remarked on the dark stains and discoloration of his >> fingers/fingernails. I think he used a lot more pyro than Adams. (just a >> guess) If you do the math he was 70-something when he passed on. > >Weston used Amidol paper developer, which makes the finger nails black. As will glycin. Hydroquinone would probably do a fair job as well but I was quite surprised to see how black glycin gets when oxidized.Looks like tar. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email Weston used more pyro than Adams? It was my understanding that he used Amidol. Several years ago there was a lengthy thread on the photo forum of CompuServe including references about the toxic affects of the pyro-type chemicals (especially when inhaled as a powder, either when mixing, or after spilled liquids dried into a powder. There were also citations to the premature deaths of many factory workers who worked in industries where those chemicals were used for dying/tanning due to the workers soaking their arms in vats full of the stuff. I no longer have those files, as just about everyone at that time understood that the stuff was dangerous. The only debate concerned whether it was wise to use them anyway--that is, one's confidence in his/her ability to follow the necessary precautions. IMO it's dangerous to downplay the risks to new darkroom folk who may want to experiment with them, and might disregard safety because posters on this newsgroup find that humorous. >I do recall reading somewhere that a description of Edward Weston > (1886-1958) remarked on the dark stains and discoloration of his [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org >> Please remove the "_" when replying via email *YAWN* Weston used Pyro developers for film, Amidol is what caused the black finger nails. Weston used Amidol for printing, & one can use Amidol as a two bath solution to process B&W film. JD is a respected poster who has over the course if the years I have posted here acted very responsibly. As for Adams his book the Negative goes into great detail with regard to why the various developers like Pyro are not his choices. Most people experimenting will hopefully do a little more research than take someone's suggestion here and blindly run with it. Are you afraid of Pyro? Then by all means don't use it. As for common sense most people reading and posting here are well equipped to judge the danger simply by looking at the skull and bones poison sticker on Pyro packaging. > Weston used more pyro than Adams? It was my understanding that he used > Amidol. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > because posters on this > newsgroup find that humorous. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > *YAWN* too much eggnog? > Weston used Pyro developers for film, Amidol is what caused > the black finger nails. Weston used Amidol for printing, & one can use [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > > *YAWN* > too much eggnog? I dislike eggnog :^) SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 >I dislike eggnog :^) You need more Southern Comfort then ! Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email Afraid of Pyro? Hardly. I've used it for over 60 years. I do, however, caution people--especially if they have small children or pets in the home to use care with it. <g> Peace. > *YAWN* Weston used Pyro developers for film, Amidol is what caused > the black finger nails. Weston used Amidol for printing, & one can use [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> because posters on this >> newsgroup find that humorous. >Several years ago there was a lengthy thread on the photo forum of >CompuServe including references about the toxic affects of the pyro-type chemicals (especially >when inhaled as a powder Yeah I definitely don't recommend snorting it. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email > Yeah I definitely don't recommend snorting it. Most unpleasant. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > IMO it's dangerous to downplay the risks to new darkroom >folk who may want to experiment with them, and might disregard safety >because posters on this newsgroup find that humorous. One would hope that before they purchased or used the stuff that they would review information from more authoritative sources such as The Merck Index (http://www.merckbooks.com/mindex/), The Focal Encyclopedia of Photography (ISBN: 0240506316) or even ask a pharmacist. But for heavens sake I don't think I would ask COMPLETE STRANGERS with little or no evident qualification about the toxicity of a chemical that is labeled as a poison ! That said, standard darkroom practices are all that is needed to prevent any difficulty with any single chemical used to process standard black-&-white materials. Don't breath it. Don't eat it. Don't drink it. Don't take a bath in it. There are three reasons that people have died from pyro exposure. 1) The pyro they were using was mixed in very high concentrations. 2) The temperature of the working solution was 180F and highly alkaline. 3) There were virtually swimming in the vats ! With an LD50 of 1.6g/kg I would have to ingest 140 grams of pyro to RTECS#: CAS# 87-66-1: UX2800000 LD50/LC50: CAS# 87-66-1: Draize test, rabbit, eye: 20 mg/24H Moderate; Draize test, rabbit, skin: 2 mg/24H Severe; Oral, mouse: LD50 = 300 mg/kg; Oral, mouse: LD50 = 570 mg/kg; Oral, rabbit: LD50 = 1600 mg/kg; Oral, rabbit: LD50 = 1600 mg/kg; Oral, rat: LD50 = 790 mg/kg. Carcinogenicity: Pyrogallol - Not listed by ACGIH, IARC, or NTP. From The Merck Index ld50 for pyro- 1.6 g kg ld50 for hydroquinone 0.3 g kg ld50 for table salt 3.75 g kg ld50 for Tylenol 0.3 g kg As Richard Knoppow has pointed out numerous times in the past "Dosis facit venenum." - "The dose makes the poison." Paracelsus (1493-1541). For further illumination I suggest "The Dose Makes the Poison: A Plain-Language Guide to Toxicology, 2nd Edition" by M. Alice Ottoboni. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email IOW, it's about as toxic as ac > From The Merck Index > > ld50 for pyro- 1.6 g kg > ld50 for hydroquinone 0.3 g kg > ld50 for table salt 3.75 g kg > ld50 for Tylenol 0.3 g kg John, Thanks for showing what I have been saying all along. There are more toxic items in your household right now! Gasoline, 409 Spray Cleaner, Dektol, bleach, Drano, and the list goes on and on. Responsible and informed use is the most proactive way of dealing with chemicals of any sort. Jim > > IMO it's dangerous to downplay the risks to new > > darkroom folk who may want to experiment with them, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Merck Index (http://www.merckbooks.com/mindex/), > The Focal ... ETC and etc. May be fatal, poisen, toxic, consult with with your physician. Gloves, ventilation, even gas masks. I wonder if I'd ever made into the darkroom forty plus years ago. There is one thing though, Asthma. I've read that SO2 will aggravate the condition. Those who produce chemistry which generates SO2 should forewarn the public. Dan > I do recall reading somewhere that a description of Edward Weston > (1886-1958) remarked on the dark stains and discoloration of his > fingers/fingernails. I think he used a lot more pyro than Adams. (just a > guess) If you do the math he was 70-something when he passed on. Amidol caused finger nail discoloration. Weston died from Parkinson's disease. > -- > darkroommike [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org > > Please remove the "_" when replying via email On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:51:46 GMT, "Beppe Alborè" <joker-artist@libero.it> wrote: >i've just a little question for you: >in your opinion, are the following products carcinogenic, or carcinogenic >suspected ? > >negative film developer: kodak xtol Nope >paper developers: kodak ektaflo, kodak selectol Suspected but never proven to be carcinogenic. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email B&W chemicals esp. commercially available are very benign. Liquids are the safest. If you mix from powder don't breath the dust. If you're really concerned a respirator is only ~US$20. There are at least 2 books on the subject: Health Hazards for Photographers and Overexposure. Here's some fun reading: http://www.lhc.org.uk/members/pubs/books/chem/chAAAAAA.htm#gcbaba Natural Light Black and White Photography http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/ -George- > i've just a little question for you: > in your opinion, are the following products carcinogenic, or carcinogenic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > thanks! |
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