Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004
Mostly OT: Really good gloves for shooting in very cold temps.
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Some Dude - 15 Dec 2004 14:06 GMT Hi,
as you can see I am good at off-topic postings sometimes. But you guys are the bestest everest to me so ...
I'm looking for some "serious" shooting gloves that can at *least* handle 5 minutes without losing finger sensation in temps around -10f. Of course the caveat is that they have to be thin enough to use the controls, set flash settings, load film (not a requirement), etc. Ultimately a pair of gloves where I can use my hands and actually depress the shutter is what i'm going for.
I've done the iso heet stuff hand warmers, etc, etc but I'm really thinking technology should be out there to give you a thin pair of gloves that are great.
I've heard of LowePro gloves but have also heard that these aren't so "hot" either.
Any tips from anyone?
Thanks!
Joe Makowiec - 15 Dec 2004 14:45 GMT > I'm looking for some "serious" shooting gloves that can at *least* > handle 5 minutes without losing finger sensation in temps around -10f. <snip>
> Any tips from anyone? How about silk glove liners inside a glove/mitten - cutoff fingers with a mitten 'flap' - see:
http://www.ampro.co.nz/products/Manzella/manzella.htm
and look for WS-20-FIN about half way down the page.[1]
[1] This is not an endorsement; provided by way of illustration
 Signature Joe Makowiec http://makowiec.org/ Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 15 Dec 2004 18:09 GMT I have a pair of skiing gloves that work really well, but you have to remove them for shooting.
angryfilmguy - 15 Dec 2004 15:20 GMT i wear full lenth mountain biker gloves... i find them quite good. they work well on a nikon F3
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks! Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Dec 2004 16:06 GMT > I'm really thinking technology should be out there > to give you a thin pair of gloves that are [very warm]. Nope. Can't be done.
Leaving aside gloves made with vacuum:
Thickness of insulation and lack of air circulation within the insulation are the two factors determining insulation efficiency. The material used for insulation has little bearing on insulation, though it does bear on weight, wettability, strength ...
It's like cars: there is no substitute for cubic inches.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Tom Phillips - 15 Dec 2004 16:44 GMT > > I'm really thinking technology should be out there > > to give you a thin pair of gloves that are [very warm]. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thickness of insulation and lack of air circulation within > the insulation are the two factors determining insulation efficiency. Want warmth, wear mittens (wool, down, whatever.) Need dexterity, I'd insert a reasonably thick poly glove liner that can offer temporary protection against wind chill and handling cold equipment. Such a method should easily handle 5 minutes at a time at -10 before needing fingers rewarmed.
Beyond that inexpensive option, check into what mountaineers use on Everest (gloves and liners.)
> The material used for insulation has little bearing on insulation, > though it does bear on weight, wettability, strength ... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com > psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ jjs - 15 Dec 2004 16:58 GMT Take what I have to say from experience as rather extreme, but I was trained for military arctic duty, and I have lived as a civilian in a climate that had temps to -40F (and you know that's not the so-called 'wind chill' which, if calculated, is like the dark side of the moon:)).
There are two approaches to this issue. First, use a good, wool glove liner under a windproof mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work. You can buy civilian mittens that have a flap that lets you put your fingers through the palm area, therefore obviating the removal part. There are mittens that have a single 'trigger' finger exposed, but you don't put your finger in there until you need to. It's not a warm part of the system. A second approach is to use a 'muff' for the camera; it envelops the camera and your hands, leaving the lens and viewer exposed. Of course this is good for 35mm, maybe some MF, but not LF.
Pieter Litchfield - 15 Dec 2004 18:22 GMT I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South Colton, 1970. Tht's nippy!! Thank God the air was absolutely still. But your advice on mittens and gloves is right on. I wear some wool glove/mitts that have a mitten top that folds back and "latches" with velco. The under-glove has exposed fingertips. Great for working. However, when its really cold you need to add a mitten shell over the outer mitten for additional trapped air. I use one that is cordura nylon with rubber palms. You can operate a snowmobile throttle, but not an F3. Now for the really bad news. Anytime you touch any very cold surface with bare fingertips it triggers an "automatic" response in you body. Essentially your cold fingertips send a message that they are loosing heat fast. Your brain unconciously responds by CUTTING the blood flow to the extremities to conserve warmth for the central core (trunk). After all, it reasons, you can live without 1 hand, but you only have 1 heart. Anyway, this is to say that touching a cold F3 may have the effect of making all your extremities colder. The simple rule is to never, ever touch bare metal with bare skin. That being said, maybe you can figure out how to deal with this issue. I'd minimize hand skin exposure, and then try to get them warm as quickly as possible - stuff your hand into a warming pocket in your parka. And those chemical hand warmers? They may work OK for you, but they make my hands sweat and wearing damp gloves causes them to be colder! But they might be worth a try.
> Take what I have to say from experience as rather extreme, but I was > trained for military arctic duty, and I have lived as a civilian in a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the camera and your hands, leaving the lens and viewer exposed. Of course > this is good for 35mm, maybe some MF, but not LF. jjs - 15 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT >I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South >Colton, 1970. Tht's nippy!! Thank God the air was absolutely still. Okay. But did you have to pee? =8^}
Frank Calidonna - 16 Dec 2004 02:12 GMT >I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South >Colton, 1970. Tht's nippy!! Thank God the air was absolutely still. But [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >"j Might I add that foam pipe insulation on aluminum tripod legs makes them easier to hold in very cold weather. I also use poly fleece mittens that fold back to expose the fingers. They sell them in the hunting departments. A dummy battery holder with wires going under your coat to the real batteries makes that a non problem too. Since we basically have two seasons in upstate NY, winter and July 27th, we learn how to cope. Otherwise our photo season would be very short. Besides some of the best landscapes involve snow. I love it.
Frank Rome, NY
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:11 GMT i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is pretty damn cold for USA.
>I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South >Colton, 1970. John Bartley - 18 Dec 2004 00:26 GMT >i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is >pretty damn cold for USA. Yup - can't beat you, but I can tie you. I've seen -52'C in Iroquois Falls, Northern Ontario, winter 1983/84. That same morning Matheson Ontario (just up the river) showed -64'C .
Even with two block heaters my truck wouldn't roll over - engine block was warm, but the oil was too thick.
cheers
 Signature regards from ::
John Bartley 43 Norway Spruce Street Stittsville, Ontario Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer - does that apply to life also?)
Douglas - 18 Dec 2004 01:10 GMT >>i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is >>pretty damn cold for USA. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > cheers Well this thread direction was expected. Fun!
The record is apparently held by White River Ontario (just N of Superior) as the coldest place in Canada. In the winter of 1935 it dropped one night to -72 degrees Fahrenheit. They have a sign in town that brags about this. White River is also noted as the birth place of Winnie the pooh.
...course I wasn't old enough or stupid enough to be there when it was that cold....D
Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Dec 2004 21:51 GMT > First, use a good, wool glove liner under a windproof > mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work. For mountaineering etc. the advice is (was?) to add a silk glove under the wool glove under the down mitten under the windproof mitten. You don't want anything waterproof when it is very cold.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
The Wogster - 16 Dec 2004 15:32 GMT >>First, use a good, wool glove liner under a windproof >>mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the windproof mitten. You don't want anything waterproof > when it is very cold. I live in Canada, and while I am not in the coldest area, it can get numbing in short times, when outside.
What you *really* want, is layers, the inner most layer should be a wicking layer, or material that transmits moisture from inside to outside, some man made materials can do this, like polypropalene, and some natural materials like silk. Follow this up with a good insulating layer which traps air, wool is the old traditional insulating layer. Then add a layer of wind-proof and waterproof material, goretex works the best, and some others work as well. In cold, wind is enemy number one, dampness is enemy number two.
Gloves are the tricky part here, while it's easy to layer on your body, it's tricky for your hands, because you still need to have your hands workable. There are some possible solutions though, with an auto-exposure and auto-focus camera, then a longer remote release could be kept inside mittens, to make exposures easier. With an auto-exposure, manual focus camera, it's almost as easy to use the side of your mittened hand to focus, and trust the auto-exposure mechanism to work again using a remote release in your mitten to trigger the exposure. Fully manual cameras, you can probably grip an aperature ring well enough, but you need a shutter dial that either overlaps the outside of the body, or pick a shutter speed, and then set the aperature to compensate.
I find mechanical cameras are better for cold work, as batteries can easily freeze, film can freeze too, but slow steady manual advancing will keep film from shattering. Keep fresh rolls, in a warm area, used ones should go in an outside pocket or in their plastic cans. Make sure they are in the plastic cans before taking them into a warm area.
Changing film can be the tricky part, because you need to use your fingers for dexterous work, while loading. Bulk film backs, or rolls that are longer can help, use 36exp rolls, or bulk load your own, I think you can go up to about 46 in a standard 35mm cartridge....
W
Tom Phillips - 16 Dec 2004 16:38 GMT > > For mountaineering etc. the advice is (was?) to add a silk > > glove under the wool glove under the down mitten under [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the best, and some others work as well. In cold, wind is enemy number > one, dampness is enemy number two. Actually, being a wilderness guide and climber and frequenting mountain environments averaging 400 inches snowfall anually with winter temps often -20F below (-60 is the record), plus often windy (100 mph is not uncommon on chinook days) _wet_ is the #1 enemy; staying dry is what keeps you alive. The difference is wind can chill you and facilitate frostbite if raw skin is exposed or clothing insufficient. But it's not the killer being wet is.
If you're wet in a wet-cold environment, however, you're dead, plain and simple. Wind or no wind. Hypothermia in the temps discussed is virtually assured if wet. So, yes to layers (like I said poly glove liners) and wool mittens or some suitable synthetic are good choices since they will _all_ still insulate even when wet. Mittens will trap air to keep fingers warm; gloves less so.
Any synthetic outer wind shell should be suitable as long as it's breathable. In winter/snow I don't see that it has to be waterproof, just water resistent. Gore tex is rather overpriced...
> Gloves are the tricky part here, while it's easy to layer on your body, > it's tricky for your hands, because you still need to have your hands [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > W Some Dude - 17 Dec 2004 17:46 GMT Man you guys came out in droves for this one! I'm impressed. Thanks.
I ran into a guy that does ice climbing and he was mentioning using those iso-heet (sp?) hand warmer things that you put inside your glove. He says they last about two hours and are quite cheap. He says he used a pair of thin mountain hardwear shells and puts a hand warmer in each one and he's good to go even at -20f or colder.
Thanks again
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:12 GMT >I find mechanical cameras are better for cold work, as batteries can >easily freeze, film can freeze too, but slow steady manual advancing >will keep film from shattering. Keep fresh rolls, in a warm area, used >ones should go in an outside pocket or in their plastic cans. Make sure >they are in the plastic cans before taking them into a warm area. I've had film snap mid-roll in very cold temps. I noticed soemthing was wrong after with the film winding but b/c i didnt know the film snapped, i wasnt able to rewind the part with pictures on it.
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:07 GMT here's what i would recommend - use the fleece liner of a two part glove for you minor hand, and a bulky mitt for your major hand that is easy to remove.
William Mutch - 23 Dec 2004 17:18 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ultimately a pair of gloves where I can use my hands and actually > depress the shutter is what i'm going for. I've worked all winter pruning grapes in a winery vineyard with gloves by a company called DucksBack. They had fine silk innards, a tightly knit cashmire glove, and a doeskin "trigger finger" mitten, lined with flannel, on the outside. They were wonderful, but wicked expensive...$32.00 when we were making $4.75 /hr. WORTH IT !
> I've done the iso heet stuff hand warmers, etc, etc but I'm really > thinking technology should be out there to give you a thin pair of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks! Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Dec 2004 19:01 GMT > I've worked all winter pruning grapes in a winery vineyard with > gloves by a company called DucksBack. They had fine silk innards, a > tightly knit cashmire glove, and a doeskin "trigger finger" mitten, > lined with flannel, on the outside. They were wonderful, but wicked > expensive...$32.00 when we were making $4.75 /hr. WORTH IT ! Sounds great, but:
Google can't find 'ducksback' or 'duck back' or ... in the right context.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Some Dude - 25 Dec 2004 16:06 GMT I too have come up somewhat empty with Ducksback. It appears to be a waterproofing company..or maybe a trademark or something..
Just as an FYI, since I started this thread I have been wearing these very thin glove liners:
http://www.mountainhardwear.com/action/catalog/DisplayStyle?id=499
These are actually so warm that I go snowboarding with them in 20f without a problem. (my hands stay warm even if I get snow on the gloves). I use my existing hand warmers on top of my hands to go the extra mile.
I tested this when it was -15f about four days ago with a "breeze" from the lake at about 15-25mph and I was shooting for over an hour with toasty hands. I could've gone a lot longer too but the wind was freezing my face off :) . So, for me, problem solved. Now, face warmers...
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