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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004

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Mostly OT: Really good gloves for shooting in very cold temps.

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Some Dude - 15 Dec 2004 14:06 GMT
Hi,

as you can see I am good at off-topic postings sometimes.  But you guys
are the bestest everest to me so ...

I'm looking for some "serious" shooting gloves that can at *least*
handle 5 minutes without losing finger sensation in temps around -10f.
Of course the caveat is that they have to be thin enough to use the
controls, set flash settings, load film (not a requirement), etc.
Ultimately a pair of gloves where I can use my hands and actually
depress the shutter is what i'm going for.

I've done the iso heet stuff hand warmers, etc, etc but I'm really
thinking technology should be out there to give you a thin pair of
gloves that are great.

I've heard of LowePro gloves but have also heard that these aren't so
"hot" either.

Any tips from anyone?

Thanks!
Joe Makowiec - 15 Dec 2004 14:45 GMT
> I'm looking for some "serious" shooting gloves that can at *least*
> handle 5 minutes without losing finger sensation in temps around -10f.
<snip>
> Any tips from anyone?

How about silk glove liners inside a glove/mitten - cutoff fingers with a
mitten 'flap' - see:

http://www.ampro.co.nz/products/Manzella/manzella.htm

and look for WS-20-FIN about half way down the page.[1]

[1] This is not an endorsement; provided by way of illustration
Signature

Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe

uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 15 Dec 2004 18:09 GMT
I have a pair of skiing gloves that work really well, but you have to
remove them for shooting.
angryfilmguy - 15 Dec 2004 15:20 GMT
i wear full lenth mountain biker gloves... i find them quite good.
they work well on a nikon F3

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Thanks!
Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Dec 2004 16:06 GMT
> I'm really thinking technology should be out there
> to give you a thin pair of gloves that are [very warm].

Nope.  Can't be done.

Leaving aside gloves made with vacuum:

Thickness of insulation and lack of air circulation within
the insulation are the two factors determining insulation efficiency.
The material used for insulation has little bearing on insulation,
though it does bear on weight, wettability, strength ...

It's like cars: there is no substitute for cubic inches.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Tom Phillips - 15 Dec 2004 16:44 GMT
> > I'm really thinking technology should be out there
> > to give you a thin pair of gloves that are [very warm].
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thickness of insulation and lack of air circulation within
> the insulation are the two factors determining insulation efficiency.

Want warmth, wear mittens (wool, down, whatever.)
Need dexterity, I'd insert a reasonably thick poly
glove liner that can offer temporary protection
against wind chill and handling cold equipment.
Such a method should easily handle 5 minutes at
a time at -10 before needing fingers rewarmed.

Beyond that inexpensive option, check into what
mountaineers use on Everest (gloves and liners.)

> The material used for insulation has little bearing on insulation,
> though it does bear on weight, wettability, strength ...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
> psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
jjs - 15 Dec 2004 16:58 GMT
Take what I have to say from experience as rather extreme, but I was trained
for military arctic duty, and I have lived as a civilian in a climate that
had temps to -40F (and you know that's not the so-called 'wind chill' which,
if calculated, is like the dark side of the moon:)).

There are two approaches to this issue. First, use a good, wool glove liner
under a windproof mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work. You
can buy civilian mittens that have a flap that lets you put your fingers
through the palm area, therefore obviating the removal part. There are
mittens that have a single 'trigger' finger exposed, but you don't put your
finger in there until you need to. It's not a warm part of the system. A
second approach is to use a 'muff' for the camera; it envelops the camera
and your hands, leaving the lens and viewer exposed. Of course this is good
for 35mm, maybe some MF, but not LF.
Pieter Litchfield - 15 Dec 2004 18:22 GMT
I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South
Colton, 1970.  Tht's nippy!!  Thank God the air was absolutely still.  But
your advice on mittens and gloves is right on.  I wear some wool glove/mitts
that have a mitten top that folds back and "latches" with velco.  The
under-glove has exposed fingertips.  Great for working.  However, when its
really cold you need to add a mitten shell over the outer mitten for
additional trapped air.  I use one that is cordura nylon with rubber palms.
You can operate a snowmobile throttle, but not an F3.
Now for the really bad news.  Anytime you touch any very cold surface with
bare fingertips it triggers an "automatic" response in you body.
Essentially your cold fingertips send a message that they are loosing heat
fast.  Your brain unconciously responds by CUTTING the blood flow to the
extremities to conserve warmth for the central core (trunk).  After all,  it
reasons, you can live without 1 hand, but you only have 1 heart.  Anyway,
this is to say that touching a cold F3 may have the effect of making all
your extremities colder.  The simple rule is to never, ever touch bare metal
with bare skin.  That being said, maybe you can figure out how to deal with
this issue.  I'd minimize hand skin exposure, and then try to get them warm
as quickly as possible - stuff your hand into a warming pocket in your
parka.  And those chemical hand warmers?  They may work OK for you, but they
make my hands sweat and wearing damp gloves causes them to be colder!  But
they might be worth a try.

> Take what I have to say from experience as rather extreme, but I was
> trained for military arctic duty, and I have lived as a civilian in a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the camera and your hands, leaving the lens and viewer exposed. Of course
> this is good for 35mm, maybe some MF, but not LF.
jjs - 15 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT
>I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South
>Colton, 1970.  Tht's nippy!!  Thank God the air was absolutely still.

Okay. But did you have to pee? =8^}
Frank Calidonna - 16 Dec 2004 02:12 GMT
>I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South
>Colton, 1970.  Tht's nippy!!  Thank God the air was absolutely still.  But
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>"j

Might I add that foam pipe insulation on aluminum  tripod legs makes
them easier to hold in very cold weather. I also use poly fleece mittens
that fold back to expose the fingers. They sell them in the hunting
departments. A dummy battery holder with wires going under your coat to
the real batteries makes that a non problem too. Since we basically have
two seasons in upstate NY, winter and July 27th, we learn how to cope.
Otherwise our photo season would be very short. Besides some of the best
landscapes involve snow. I love it.

 Frank    Rome, NY
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:11 GMT
i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is
pretty damn cold for USA.

>I go you beat jjs - I experienced -54 degrees (F) in upstate NY - South
>Colton, 1970.
John Bartley - 18 Dec 2004 00:26 GMT
>i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is
>pretty damn cold for USA.

Yup - can't beat you, but I can tie you. I've seen -52'C in Iroquois
Falls, Northern Ontario, winter 1983/84. That same morning Matheson
Ontario (just up the river) showed -64'C .

Even with two block heaters my truck wouldn't roll over - engine block
was warm, but the oil was too thick.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Douglas - 18 Dec 2004 01:10 GMT
>>i got you both beat :) -52C in northern british columbia, but -54f is
>>pretty damn cold for USA.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> cheers

Well this thread direction was expected. Fun!

The record is apparently held by White River Ontario (just N of Superior) as
the coldest place in Canada. In the winter of 1935 it dropped one night
to -72 degrees Fahrenheit. They have a sign in town that brags about this.
White River is also noted as the birth place of Winnie the pooh.

...course I wasn't old enough or stupid enough to be there when it was that
cold....D
Nicholas O. Lindan - 15 Dec 2004 21:51 GMT
> First, use a good, wool glove liner under a windproof
> mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work.

For mountaineering etc. the advice is (was?) to add a silk
glove under the wool glove under the down mitten under
the windproof mitten.  You don't want anything waterproof
when it is very cold.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

The Wogster - 16 Dec 2004 15:32 GMT
>>First, use a good, wool glove liner under a windproof
>>mitten and remove the mitten to do the delicate work.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the windproof mitten.  You don't want anything waterproof
> when it is very cold.

I live in Canada, and while I am not in the coldest area, it can get
numbing in short times, when outside.

What you *really* want, is layers, the inner most layer should be a
wicking layer, or material that transmits moisture from inside to
outside, some man made materials can do this, like polypropalene, and
some natural materials like silk.  Follow this up with a good insulating
layer which traps air, wool is the old traditional insulating layer.
Then add a layer of wind-proof and waterproof material, goretex works
the best, and some others work as well.  In cold, wind is enemy number
one, dampness is enemy number two.

Gloves are the tricky part here, while it's easy to layer on your body,
it's tricky for your hands, because you still need to have your hands
workable.  There are some possible solutions though, with an
auto-exposure and auto-focus camera, then a longer remote release could
be kept inside mittens, to make exposures easier.  With an
auto-exposure, manual focus camera, it's almost as easy to use the side
of your mittened hand to focus, and trust the auto-exposure mechanism to
work again using a remote release in your mitten to trigger the
exposure.  Fully manual cameras, you can probably grip an aperature ring
well enough, but you need a shutter dial that either overlaps the
outside of the body, or pick a shutter speed, and then set the aperature
to compensate.

I find mechanical cameras are better for cold work, as batteries can
easily freeze, film can freeze too, but slow steady manual advancing
will keep film from shattering.  Keep fresh rolls, in a warm area, used
ones should go in an outside pocket or in their plastic cans.  Make sure
they are in the plastic cans before taking them into a warm area.

Changing film can be the tricky part, because you need to use your
fingers for dexterous work, while loading.  Bulk film backs, or rolls
that are longer can help, use 36exp rolls, or bulk load your own, I
think you can go up to about 46 in a standard 35mm cartridge....

W
Tom Phillips - 16 Dec 2004 16:38 GMT
> > For mountaineering etc. the advice is (was?) to add a silk
> > glove under the wool glove under the down mitten under
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the best, and some others work as well.  In cold, wind is enemy number
> one, dampness is enemy number two.

Actually, being a wilderness guide and climber
and frequenting mountain environments averaging
400 inches snowfall anually with winter temps
often -20F below (-60 is the record), plus often
windy (100 mph is not uncommon on chinook days)
_wet_ is the #1 enemy; staying dry is what keeps
you alive. The difference is wind can chill you
and facilitate frostbite if raw skin is exposed
or clothing insufficient. But it's not the killer
being wet is.

If you're wet in a wet-cold environment, however,
you're dead, plain and simple. Wind or no wind.
Hypothermia in the temps discussed is virtually
assured if wet. So, yes to layers (like I said
poly glove liners) and wool mittens or some suitable
synthetic are good choices since they will _all_
still insulate even when wet. Mittens will trap
air to keep fingers warm; gloves less so.

Any synthetic outer wind shell should be suitable
as long as it's breathable. In winter/snow I don't
see that it has to be waterproof, just water
resistent. Gore tex is rather overpriced...

> Gloves are the tricky part here, while it's easy to layer on your body,
> it's tricky for your hands, because you still need to have your hands
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> W
Some Dude - 17 Dec 2004 17:46 GMT
Man you guys came out in droves for this one!  I'm impressed.  Thanks.

I ran into a guy that does ice climbing and he was mentioning using
those iso-heet (sp?) hand warmer things that you put inside your glove.
He says they last about two hours and are quite cheap.  He says he
used a pair of thin mountain hardwear shells and puts a hand warmer in
each one and he's good to go even at -20f or colder.

Thanks again
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:12 GMT
>I find mechanical cameras are better for cold work, as batteries can
>easily freeze, film can freeze too, but slow steady manual advancing
>will keep film from shattering.  Keep fresh rolls, in a warm area, used
>ones should go in an outside pocket or in their plastic cans.  Make sure
>they are in the plastic cans before taking them into a warm area.

I've had film snap mid-roll in very cold temps.  I noticed soemthing
was wrong after with the film winding but b/c i didnt know the film
snapped, i wasnt able to rewind the part with pictures on it.
Neal - 17 Dec 2004 21:07 GMT
here's what i would recommend - use the fleece liner of a two part
glove for you minor hand, and a bulky mitt for your major hand that is
easy to remove.
William Mutch - 23 Dec 2004 17:18 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Ultimately a pair of gloves where I can use my hands and actually
> depress the shutter is what i'm going for.

    I've worked all winter pruning grapes in a winery vineyard with
gloves by a company called DucksBack.  They had fine silk innards, a
tightly knit cashmire glove, and a doeskin "trigger finger" mitten,
lined with flannel, on the outside.  They were wonderful, but wicked
expensive...$32.00 when we were making $4.75 /hr.  WORTH IT !

> I've done the iso heet stuff hand warmers, etc, etc but I'm really
> thinking technology should be out there to give you a thin pair of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks!
Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Dec 2004 19:01 GMT
> I've worked all winter pruning grapes in a winery vineyard with
> gloves by a company called DucksBack.  They had fine silk innards, a
> tightly knit cashmire glove, and a doeskin "trigger finger" mitten,
> lined with flannel, on the outside.  They were wonderful, but wicked
> expensive...$32.00 when we were making $4.75 /hr.  WORTH IT !

Sounds great, but:

Google can't find 'ducksback' or 'duck back' or ... in the right
context.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Some Dude - 25 Dec 2004 16:06 GMT
I too have come up somewhat empty with Ducksback.  It appears to be a
waterproofing company..or maybe a trademark or something..

Just as an FYI, since I started this thread I have been wearing these
very thin glove liners:

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/action/catalog/DisplayStyle?id=499

These are actually so warm that I go snowboarding with them in 20f
without a problem.  (my hands stay warm even if I get snow on the
gloves).  I use my existing hand warmers on top of my hands to go the
extra mile.

I tested this when it was -15f about four days ago with a "breeze" from
the lake at about 15-25mph and I was shooting for over an hour with
toasty hands.  I could've gone a lot longer too but the wind was
freezing my face off :) .
So, for me, problem solved.  Now, face warmers...
 
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