Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004
Does mixing your own chemicals save money?
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glaserp@sustainsoft.com - 08 Dec 2004 12:40 GMT Hi,
I have been doing a lot of shooting and printing lately and am bewildered at how quickly I am going through chemicals (yes I use my fixer and stop by to exhaustion but insist on using developer on a one-shot basis). Previous discussions on the archive have focused on the flexibility benefits of mixing your own, but I am wondering about cost. Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? Thanks!
--Phil
Nick Zentena - 08 Dec 2004 13:27 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cost. Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? > Thanks! Depends on what you're using. But my answer is going to be no. The cheapest method is usually to buy bigger packages/bottles of pre mixed chemicals. The bigger sizes aimed at commerical labs are much cheaper then the smaller sizes aimed at home users.
OTOH you can go to say: www.jdphotochem.com And work out the costs yourself. The cheapest way is to buy the big packages of chemicals. Some will get used in almost every thing [sodium sulfite] but even the stuff you only use a little of will keep quite awhile.
Nick
PATRICK GAINER - 08 Dec 2004 14:36 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Nick > It depends a lot on what you are mixing. Anything with lots of sulfite in it is going to cost about $4 a quart. I can make film developer that is better than most for about $0.25 a gallon. I can make a stock solution for about $20 a liter that is diluted 1+50 for film.
Nick Zentena - 08 Dec 2004 16:04 GMT > [-- text/plain, encoding 7bit, charset: us-ascii, 40 lines --] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Depends on what you're using. But my answer is going to be no. The
> It depends a lot on what you are mixing. Anything with lots of sulfite > in it is going to cost about $4 a quart. I can make film developer that > is better than most for about $0.25 a gallon. I can make a stock > solution for about $20 a liter that is diluted 1+50 for film. Sulfite is so cheap I don't even worry about it. I only buy it 10lbs a time but others buy it by the full bag and then it's even cheaper.
Locally you can buy something like Agfa Neutol 125ml for about $3 but the 20l jug is $13. Some one with the need for volume will find the bigger sizes much cheaper then the little bottles. I like mixing my own but I wouldn't put cost saving on the list of reasons. At least not for the stuff I use alot of. It's nice not to throw out old solutions and that's one way mixing my own saves me money.
Nick
Gregory Blank - 08 Dec 2004 13:44 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Phil Can be; depends on the chemicals. Some stuff like lye (Sodium Hydroxide), Sodium Carbonate, Borax I can get at the grocery store.
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Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 13:44 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the flexibility benefits of mixing your own, but I am wondering about > cost. Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? I don't think so. Plus I'm not sure what you mean by the flexibility, Phil. Generally, I mix my own only when it benifits the results I want to achieve. Example: mixing my own print developer (which I have done) was never as efficacious IMO than using standard packaged Dektol.
I had a professor in college who insisted Amidol was artistically "better" (for him) than dektol. I never found this to show in my own prints and quit mixing it. Much cheaper to use the school lab's premixed Dektol.
It really depends on what you want/need, and/or are wanting to achieve. I mix my own negative developers but only to a point. Example: if I'm developing Tech Pan I use my own pyro-phenidone mixture because I think I get better curves than with packaged Technidol or TD-3. If I'm using T-max I prefer Rodinal, HC110, or some other commercial developer.
I would say that rather than 'flexable', you rather should be aware of just what results you expect when you mix your own. BTW, developer should IMO always be used one shot, but I never any chemistry (especially fixer) to exhaustion. As soon as fixer shows any concentration of silver compounds (fixer test) I discard it or use it for work prints. Likewise I never use stop to exhaustion.
I consider rapid fix, acetic acid, and hypo clear to be relatively cheap.
Gregory Blank - 08 Dec 2004 13:51 GMT > but I never any chemistry (especially > fixer) to exhaustion. As soon as fixer shows any > concentration of silver compounds (fixer test) I > discard it or use it for work prints. Likewise I > never use stop to exhaustion. Fixer, I use two times to print; first bath is last times second bath, I always mix a second fresh bath and fix three minutes before toning.
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 14:09 GMT > > but I never any chemistry (especially > > fixer) to exhaustion. As soon as fixer shows any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > second bath, I always mix a second fresh bath and fix > three minutes before toning. I never fix that long (B&W), but instead use a 1 bath archival fix (rapid fix 1:3 for 1 minute.) No second bath. When a fixer test reveals precipitate, I use it for work prints or mix fresh 1:3 for good prints. Don't really care about the cost, but efficaiousness and convienence.
Tests indicate 1:3 rapid fix fixes Seagull (my standard paper) in 25 seconds _even_ when a light precipitate forms.
> LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank > > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, > or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Michael A. Covington - 08 Dec 2004 14:52 GMT The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from the syrupy concentrate. If you take only the amount of concentrate you need for one-shot use, the rest of it will keep for years. See:
www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110
As for mixing your own, D-23 has been recommended as especially simple. I don't know how economical it is. Try to get a formula measured in spoonfuls rather than grams (there are people who have worked it out that way).
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Michael A. Covington Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html
John Bartley - 09 Dec 2004 00:20 GMT >As for mixing your own, D-23 has been recommended as especially simple. I >don't know how economical it is. Try to get a formula measured in spoonfuls >rather than grams (there are people who have worked it out that way). > I originally tried mixing my own D23 because I thought I was going to be photo'ing while on holiday in a slightly rugged outdoor environment for a bit and wanted to be able to develop the negatives on site. That didn't pan out, but I found that the D23 is easy to mix and seems to do a good job. Dry chemicals will last forever and I don't really do enough of this hobby to worry about the cost savings. I don't think (just off the top of my head) that there is a great savings over the Rodinal that I also have here, and I'm newbie enough at this that these are the only two I've ever used. I use a small battery powered digital kitchen scale for measuring, and have always measured by zeroing and adding. I think however that I'm going to start a previously recomended method of removal measurement - this should help insure against mistakes on my part.
cheers
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Tom Phillips - 09 Dec 2004 05:29 GMT > The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from the > syrupy concentrate. I would say rodinal is cheapest and most reliable long term, but it's a matter of preference (and granularity.)
>If you take only the amount of concentrate you need for > one-shot use, the rest of it will keep for years. See: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur > www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html Michael A. Covington - 09 Dec 2004 06:45 GMT >> The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from >> the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > long term, but it's a matter of preference (and > granularity.) Yes; I had that in the back of my mind too. I've never actually used Rodinal.
Tom Phillips - 10 Dec 2004 00:18 GMT > >> The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from > >> the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yes; I had that in the back of my mind too. I've never actually used > Rodinal. According to Ed Buffaloe's chart posted by Jordan (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Cost/cost.html) HC110 is cheaper. Course prices have changed.
Rodinal is the longest lasting concentrate (shelf life) I know though. I've had HC110 go bad on the shelf after a few years. I've tested Rodinal that's several years old and it maintains it's strength pretty well even though color wise it appears to have oxidized.
Some Dude - 11 Dec 2004 16:17 GMT I think if you have the time then a small bottle of Rodinal (125ml) 1:100 (for example: 18m @ 20c) will probably last you two months if you developed say, ten-twenty rolls a week. I think those bottles are about $4-6 depending where you get it.
If you don't have the time then rod 1:25 and the big sized bottle (500ml) should last about the same time. (with around 5-6m dev times). That bottle is about $10-12 depending where you get it.
I believe it may not be too arguable that Rodinal is the best highest-dolution commercial developer out there.
I don't think HC-110 is that cheap at all..?
Michael- use Rodinal ;)
>>> The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from >>> the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Yes; I had that in the back of my mind too. I've never actually used >Rodinal. Cheers, -sd http://www.zoom.sh
PATRICK GAINER - 09 Dec 2004 15:36 GMT >The cheapest reliable film developer that I know of is HC-110 mixed from the >syrupy concentrate. If you take only the amount of concentrate you need for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, inspired by HC110, I have taken to mixing various developers in propylene glycol in the form of concentrated stock solutions. The glycol solutions require an alkaline activator solution. I also use triethanolamine (TEA) as solvent an activator in a single solution stock. Either stock solution has a very long life. Most of these are ascorbic acid-phenidone mixtures that require no sulfite. The results, as several contributors will testify, are very good. The one called PC-TEA uses only three ingredients. The TEA can be had for $16 or so per gallon.
These developers are less toxic than HC110. Read the label if you want a fright. If you spill HC110 on your shoes, you are supposed to burn the shoes! They work as well or better. So, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
Martin Jangowski - 08 Dec 2004 15:06 GMT > Hi,
> I have been doing a lot of shooting and printing lately and am > bewildered at how quickly I am going through chemicals (yes I use my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cost. Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? > Thanks! I use self-mixed film developers exclusively. While I do this for flexibility (I can tweak my developers as long as I like it), this is cheaper than buying premixed developers. One example: 1 liter D76H (for all practical purposes identical to D76) costs about 35 Euro-Cent. One liter Perceptol-lookalike (5g Metol, 100g Sodiumsulfite, 33g NaCl, 1g boric acid, 1l water) costs about 40 Euro-Cent. Weighting takes about 5min for one batch.
My results with these homemade developers are excellent, I don't care how long they will keep... at this prices, the remains get thrown away after one developing session, and of course I use them one-shot.
Martin
Richard Knoppow - 08 Dec 2004 15:17 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Phil There isn't a simple answer. It depends on how much you use. For large volumes it may be cheaper. If you search Google for "photographic chemicals" you will find a number of sources. Check the prices. Then calculate what it costs to mix some common processing solutions which have published formulas. Sometimes you will wind up paying hazardous materials shipping charges, these make otherwise cheap chemicals expensive and must be taken into account. Pushing stop bath and fixer to the limit is not good practice. Stop bath will become neutralized by the developer fairly rapidly especially when printing. This is one solution that I can say flatly is cheaper to mix yourself. A liter of glacial acetic acid will make about 65 liters of stop bath, so is much cheaper than buying 28% or even Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, which is about double this concentration. Fixing baths should not be overused because the resulting images will not be permanent. The most economical way to do fixing is to use two successive baths. The capacity is four to ten times that of a single bath. For large enough volumes of film a replenished system is very economical and will produce very consistent results if managed right. Some developers are their own replenishers, for instance Kodak T-Max RS. Again, it depends on how much work you do. Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 15:58 GMT It depends. Some chemicals are cheap and last a long time. Others are expensive and oxidize rapidly. It is generally more advisable to mix up only those developers that use metol, hydroquinone, sodium carbonate, borax, sodium sulphite, potassium bromide, and sodium bisulphite. These keep fairly well.
Glycin oxisizes repidly, and phenidone is hard to measure in very small quantities. It's likely to go bad before you use it all, and because it's used in such small quantirties, it's hard to measure consistently in small batches. So, making up D-76, D-23/D-25, D-72, 55-D, 54-D, 56-D, etc are easy.
Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 17:00 GMT > It depends. Some chemicals are cheap and last a long time. Others are > expensive and oxidize rapidly. It is generally more advisable to mix up > only those developers that use metol, hydroquinone, sodium carbonate, > borax, sodium sulphite, potassium bromide, and sodium bisulphite. These > keep fairly well. That's _sulfite_, troll...
> Glycin oxisizes repidly, and phenidone is hard to measure in very small > quantities. uh, then why do I have no problem weighing phenidone in 0.10 grams?
> It's likely to go bad before you use it all, and because > it's used in such small quantirties, it's hard to measure consistently > in small batches. > So, making up D-76, D-23/D-25, D-72, 55-D, 54-D, 56-D, etc are easy. ALL developers should be used at working strength _immediately_. No exceptions.
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 17:17 GMT Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. I bet you cannot reproduce your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency.
>From M-W:: Main Entry:1sulfite Variant:or sulphite \*s*l*f*t, usu -*d.+V\ Function:noun Inflected Form:-s Etymology:sulfite from French, alteration (influenced by 1-ite) of sulfate; sulphite modification (influenced by sulphur) of French sulfite
: a salt or ester of sulfurous acid -sulfitic \|s*l|fid.ik\ adjective
Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 17:31 GMT > Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. I bet you cannot reproduce > your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency. troll.
> >From M-W:: > Main Entry:1sulfite [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > : a salt or ester of sulfurous acid > -sulfitic \|s*l|fid.ik\ adjective Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 17:34 GMT > > Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. I bet you cannot reproduce > > your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency. > > troll. try $90 and less for balance beam or digital.
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 17:51 GMT I have an Ohaus triple-beam for measuring down to about 1 g. Generally, I find it desirable to use concentrated solutions if I need to mix something that calls for less than 1 g.
Spending $90 will not get you a scale that will measure 0,10 g consistently. And even if you get one at that price, the cost-savings is negated. $90 will buy a lot of chemistry!
Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 18:02 GMT > I have an Ohaus triple-beam for measuring down to about 1 g. Generally, > I find it desirable to use concentrated solutions if I need to mix > something that calls for less than 1 g. > > Spending $90 will not get you a scale that will measure 0,10 g > consistently. troll+moron. John D. where are you when I need you?
>And even if you get one at that price, the cost-savings > is negated. $90 will buy a lot of chemistry! $90 minus will buy a Ohaus triple-beam...
MS, SHUT UP.
Nick Zentena - 08 Dec 2004 18:12 GMT > $90 minus will buy a Ohaus triple-beam... I think this is my small one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10323&item=4949080529&rd=1
Looks like price is higher now.
Nick
Gregory Blank - 08 Dec 2004 22:29 GMT :-D One can make an accurate scale,...all one needs is to know how to calibrate it. Even I know that an I don't have a PhD.
> > Spending $90 will not get you a scale that will measure 0,10 g > > consistently. > > troll+moron. John D. where are you when I need you?
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 18:01 GMT I have an Ohaus triple-beam for measuring down to about 1 g. Generally, I find it desirable to use concentrated solutions if I need to mix something that calls for less than 1 g.
Spending $90 will not get you a scale that will measure 0,10 g consistently. And even if you get one at that price, the cost-savings is negated. $90 will buy a lot of chemistry!
Francis A. Miniter - 08 Dec 2004 18:16 GMT My OHaus triple beam balance (for $35) measures to 0.1 gram. In fact the distance on the scale between each 0.1 gram is enough for estimation to 0.05 g.
Francis A. Miniter
>I have an Ohaus triple-beam for measuring down to about 1 g. Generally, >I find it desirable to use concentrated solutions if I need to mix [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >consistently. And even if you get one at that price, the cost-savings >is negated. $90 will buy a lot of chemistry! Tom Phillips - 08 Dec 2004 18:27 GMT > My OHaus triple beam balance (for $35) measures to 0.1 gram. In fact > the distance on the scale between each 0.1 gram is enough for estimation > to 0.05 g. yep.
> Francis A. Miniter > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >consistently. And even if you get one at that price, the cost-savings > >is negated. $90 will buy a lot of chemistry! uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 19:41 GMT You cannot reliably measure 0,10 g on such a machine. What is the range of error? 50% over or under may not be a disaster, but it is not acceptable for tightly-controlled work.
Francis A. Miniter - 08 Dec 2004 21:36 GMT >You cannot reliably measure 0,10 g on such a machine. What is the range >of error? 50% over or under may not be a disaster, but it is not >acceptable for tightly-controlled work. > > Granted I do not have two other scales to double check mine on, so I am not going to proclaim its accuracy to measure exactly 1.1 grams when it reads that. Not withstanding that, however, what I can rely on is that all measurements on this instrument, which records out to 0.1 grams, will be proportionally accurate - or inaccurate, if you will.
The proof is that I get consistently processed negatives from batch to batch, and each batch produces acceptable images.
Francis A. Miniter
Gregory Blank - 08 Dec 2004 22:25 GMT > > Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. I bet you cannot reproduce > > your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency. > > troll. "induistrial? INDUSTRIAL
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Francis A. Miniter - 08 Dec 2004 18:14 GMT I got mine on eBay for $35.00 - OHaus Triple Beam Balance.
Francis A. Miniter
>Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. I bet you cannot reproduce >your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >: a salt or ester of sulfurous acid >-sulfitic \|s*l|fid.ik\ adjective Szaboht - 08 Dec 2004 21:05 GMT > Scales of that fineness cost a lot of money. What's "a lot of money"? That's a purely subjective measure, especially in the practice of photography where cost of equipment and supplies can range from a few cents to thousands of dollars.
> I bet you cannot reproduce > your 0,10 g with anything approaching induistrial consistency. So, you want to bet, do you? You lose.
Reloading handgun ammunition require an accuracy of 0.1 grain (0.0065 grams). Failure to observe this kind of accuracy can, in some cases, produce results that are somewhat more dramatic than you'd get from an over- or underexposed piece of film.
Mechanical scales from RCBS and others (probably all manufactured by Ohaus) can be obtained for between USD40 and USD100, probably less if you monitor eBay for a while. Electronic scales with the same level of accuracy and repeatablity can be obtained for about USD60.00 from any sporting goods supplier that carries reloading equipment. Comparing the price of the scale to the amount of chemicals that could be bought is a specious argument, especially when the scale can be used for other applications.
Regards, Szabo
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 21:43 GMT Can you get exactly the right amount of chemical into the solution? The trouble with phenidone is that such a small amount is used in most formulae that even if it's measured correctly the amount sticking to surfaces is a significant portion of the whole. One may try using a paper cup to hold the phenidone and dissolve it right in there.
Szaboht - 08 Dec 2004 22:31 GMT > Can you get exactly the right amount of chemical into the solution? Yes.
Mytol Formula: Water 750 ml Sodium sulfite 60 g Sodium metaborate 4 g Sodium ascorbate 13 g Phenidone 0.15 g Sodium metabisulfite 3 g Water to make 1000 ml
Measuring accurately and repeatably 0.15 g (2.3 grains) is not a problem with the equipment I mentioned.
> The > trouble with phenidone is that such a small amount is used in most > formulae that even if it's measured correctly the amount sticking to > surfaces is a significant portion of the whole. That's easy to test. Measure the vessel. Measure the vessel + chemical. Empty the chemical. Measure the vessel again. Determine if the amount of chemical that remains in the vessel is "substantial", or even measureable.
> One may try using a > paper cup to hold the phenidone and dissolve it right in there. Don't use a paper cup. Plastic medicine dispensers are easily obtained. I believe that a few popular brands of cough syrup have them attached. In my case, I cut off the bottom part of a medicine vial, polished the edges, held it over a flame briefly to fuse any burred plastic, and it works just fine. The whole thing measures 43.6 grains. On the mechanical scale, I add the necessary amount of chemical until I get the correct aggregate weight. In the case of 0.15 grams of phenidone, I fill the vessel until it weighs 45.9 grains. On the electronic scale I simply zero the device with the empty vessel on the sensor and then tap in the required amount of chemical until I get 2.3 grains.
If I wanted to be anal about getting every picogram of chemical from the vessel into the solution, I'd simply use some of the original 750 ml of water, fill the vessel a few times and pour it into the mixing container. This really isn't necessary.
Cheers, Szabo
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 22:49 GMT I have always used a vessel (plastic margarine bowl). I rinse out the cup with water and mix it into the solution as I go. I simply '0' out the weight of the plastic cup. But as I said, I don't trust this for units below about 1 or 2 grammes. I make 3.785-fold solutions (1 US gal). Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway?
_TR_ - 08 Dec 2004 23:08 GMT > I have always used a vessel (plastic margarine bowl). I rinse out the > cup with water and mix it into the solution as I go. I simply '0' out > the weight of the plastic cup. But as I said, I don't trust this for > units below about 1 or 2 grammes. I make 3.785-fold solutions (1 US > gal). Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? Me.
Regards, Szabo
John Bartley - 09 Dec 2004 00:10 GMT > Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? > > Me.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 03:34 GMT You use 1 liter of working solutions?
David Starr - 09 Dec 2004 21:12 GMT >You use 1 liter of working solutions? Actually, I mix 750ml of stock D-76h, then dilute 1-1. My 4x5 tank holds 1.5L. That does 6 sheets. If I have more, I mix another batch while the first is in the wash.
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Francis A. Miniter - 09 Dec 2004 02:09 GMT > <snip>Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? Me too.
Francis A. Miniter
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 03:17 GMT stefano bramato - 09 Dec 2004 02:28 GMT > Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? who uses metrical units. Likes me for example-
ciao
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Gregory Blank - 09 Dec 2004 04:16 GMT > > Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? > > who uses metrical units. > Likes me for example- Chemists? sh.t,.... liters are the easiest measurements to use.
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Michael A. Covington - 09 Dec 2004 05:42 GMT >> who uses metrical units. >> Likes me for example- > > Chemists? .... liters are the easiest measurements to > use. I have been known to convert ounces to gallons by converting to liters and then back.
The Wogster - 09 Dec 2004 15:44 GMT > I have always used a vessel (plastic margarine bowl). I rinse out the > cup with water and mix it into the solution as I go. I simply '0' out > the weight of the plastic cup. But as I said, I don't trust this for > units below about 1 or 2 grammes. I make 3.785-fold solutions (1 US > gal). Who uses 1 liter of anything, anyway? Actually using metric measures are easier on chemistries, because the division is easier. Suppose you have a recipe for a developer, the recipe is for 100L, and requires 27g of chemical, you would rather mix 1L because this chemical doesn't last long in solution. How much do you need? How about .27g (simply move the decimal point).
Another recipe is for 25 Gallons, and requires 4 7/8 ounces of chemical, you want a quart of the result, for the same reason. How the heck do you figure out 4 7/8 divided by 100? Yeah, convert the 4 7/8 ounces to grains, and work with that, but can you easily do that in your head? Figuring on paper doesn't count, and using the calc... where the heck is the @#$! thing anyway. Use the computer, ah, blue screen of death, restart, takes too long.....
Who uses 1L of anything, I do, my film developing tank holds .5L or 500ml, so 1L of developer is perfect.
W
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 16:03 GMT I wasn't questioning the use of metric system, but mixing up such small quantities. I rarely mix up less than 1 gallon, facoring everything by 3.785.
Francis A. Miniter - 09 Dec 2004 16:35 GMT > I wasn't questioning the use of metric system, but mixing up such small > quantities. I rarely mix up less than 1 gallon, facoring everything by > 3.785. Why not make up 4.0 liters of solution instead of a gallon?
Francis A. Miniter
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 17:02 GMT Uhhh......
This one's really tough...
That's the size bottles I have, and the size mixes that a lot of chemistries are made in. Multiplication of 1 litre to 1 gallon is easy. 3.785x
The Wogster - 09 Dec 2004 17:26 GMT > I wasn't questioning the use of metric system, but mixing up such small > quantities. I rarely mix up less than 1 gallon, facoring everything by > 3.785. I guess it depends on the size of your tank, for fixers, bleaches (C41) and stop-baths it makes sense to mix in quanties, 4L or 5L make sense. For developers, some of which oxidize in minutes or hours, it makes more sense to mix smaller amounts. I am investigating whether it makes sense to pick up a couple of those wine-boxes from a wine supply store, and use that for developer concentrates. Should be OK for B&W developers, not sure about colour C41 or E6, the mylar bladder should work well. A rubber bladder might work well too.
One of the confusions with gallons, and why I went metric in the darkroom in the 1970's is that a Canadian ounce, pint, quart and gallon are different sizes from a US ounce, pint quart and gallon, and different manufacturers can use gallons. For example Kodak might use a US gallon, where Ilford might use a UK (Canadian) gallon. Thinking in the wrong gallon, could have disasterous results. A Litre is a Litre everywhere.
W
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 18:28 GMT That's right. Of course, it is easy to factor from the litre formulae to any volume you need. I have not said I didn't want to use litre formulas, I was wondering if anyone actually mixed up such small amounts. It seems like a lot of work. Making bigger lots makes more sense, so long as the keeping poperties are decent; whether it's 5 litres or 1 gallon is irrelevant.
Why make print developer in 1 litre? You use that much up in a few prints!
John Bartley - 09 Dec 2004 19:05 GMT > ... a Canadian ounce, pint, quart and gallon are different sizes from > a US ounce, pint quart and gallon, and different manufacturers can use > gallons. For example Kodak might use a US gallon, where Ilford might > use a UK (Canadian) gallon. Thinking in the wrong gallon, could have > disasterous results. .... Very true.....and......working in metric allows you the luxury of only having to factor by 10's or 1/10'ths. - a heck of a lot easier! ('specially if you're me :-[ )
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 08 Dec 2004 23:04 GMT But, back to the original post:
Does this save money? IF you use a lot of different developers (53-D, 55-D, 54-D, D-76, FX-5, FX-11, etc) then it's worthwhile to do. But remember that some chemicals go bad, so buying large quantities of amidol, glycin, or phenidone is stupid. They'll go bad before you use them up.
_TR_ - 08 Dec 2004 23:17 GMT > But, back to the original post: > > Does this save money? Yes. It cuts down on waste.
> IF you use a lot of different developers (53-D, > 55-D, 54-D, D-76, FX-5, FX-11, etc) then it's worthwhile to do. But > remember that some chemicals go bad, so buying large quantities of > amidol, glycin, or phenidone is stupid. They'll go bad before you use > them up. Properly stored dry chemicals oxidise less rapidly than do the same chemicals in solution. I believe that glycin is an exception to this rule.
I mix what I need, when I need it. I don't keep a huge inventory of chemicals, either wet or dry. Consequently, I waste much less than if I had bottled concoctions. And I get to mix exactly what I want for any particular mood or practical application.
So to the original question: does mixing your own save money? Yes, as compared to buying unnecessary quantities of liquid solutions, but the "savings" are likely to be only meager. More importantly, it's fun, and you get to play with chemistry sets again, just like you did when you were a kid.
Craig Schroeder - 08 Dec 2004 23:17 GMT I work in an environment requiring very precise measurements of small quantities of ingredients for compounds. A good habit is to use "negative" weighing methods to avoid mistaken over-adds or too much vessel clinging error. Place the open supply source container on the scale, tare/zero it, remove material and dribble back into the supply container until the correct "minus" weight is indicated. The lab spoon can then be tapped on the receiving/mixing vessel to remove the clinging material. One has a lot fewer "oops" moments doing it this way.
This method requires a digital scale, of course. I am a competitive target shooter and also have a good beam scale that weighs in grains. My recipes are on spreadsheets and the calculated alternate grain weight is listed in addition to the gram weight. When I'm measuring phenidone or other small quantity ingredients, the alternate weight is already there and calculated. For instance, .15 gram = 2.3 grains.... an easily measured quantity on a reloading balance.
>Don't use a paper cup. Plastic medicine dispensers are easily obtained. I >believe that a few popular brands of cough syrup have them attached. In my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the empty vessel on the sensor and then tap in the required amount of >chemical until I get 2.3 grains. Craig Schroeder craig nospam craigschroeder com
-Eschew Obfuscation-
John Bartley - 09 Dec 2004 00:12 GMT > Place the open supply source container on the >scale, tare/zero it, remove material and dribble back into the supply >container until the correct "minus" weight is indicated. The lab >spoon can then be tapped on the receiving/mixing vessel to remove the >clinging material. One has a lot fewer "oops" moments doing it this >way. That's a heck of a good idea!
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Tom Phillips - 09 Dec 2004 05:19 GMT > Can you get exactly the right amount of chemical into the solution? Yes. Have and do.
> The trouble with phenidone is No trouble at all. Ever.
>that such a small amount is used in most > formulae that even if it's measured correctly the amount sticking to > surfaces is a significant portion of the whole. One may try using a > paper cup to hold the phenidone and dissolve it right in there. Gregory Blank - 08 Dec 2004 22:23 GMT > > It depends. Some chemicals are cheap and last a long time. Others are > > expensive and oxidize rapidly. It is generally more advisable to mix up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's _sulfite_, troll... Chemist? PhD? Attention to detail?
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Francis A. Miniter - 08 Dec 2004 16:38 GMT >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have been making my own chemicals now for about 7+ years. The economic savings are definitely there. Developing a roll of film costs pennies only. I made up a two part batch of PMK 3 1/2 years ago. It is still good and I have some left. I use a lot of D-76 as well. That will keep well if refrigerated, but you only have 6 months to a year on an unopened, filled, refrigerated container.
Stop bath lasts for years, assuming you use it (which I do only occasionally now). Fixer is cheap if the sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate are bought in large enough quantities. I buy 10 lb of the former or a gallon of the latter. The raw chemicals of any in this paragraph do not deteriorate for a long time.
In addition to cost savings there is flexibility. You want D-23 not D-76? No problem. You want to experiment with the amount of potassium bromide? No problem. You want absolutely fresh chemistry? Make only enough to last a short period of time.
I even make color chemistry (C-41 and RA-4). As this chemistry (the developers that is - the bleach fixes last until exhausted) has a much shorter life span than B&W chemistry, I make only enough for sort term needs. So I always have fresh developers.
Buy enough of the raw chemicals and you will not have to resupply for a couple of years.
Francis A. Miniter
The Wogster - 08 Dec 2004 17:01 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cost. Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? > Thanks! I wouldn't use any chemistry to exhaustion, stop is quite cheap, especially in it's generic forms, Acetic Acid, and vinager. It's not affected (much) by oxidation, so don't buy small bottles. Buy it in larger amounts, the price per ml goes down quite quickly. Fixer is the same, in a tightly capped bottle, it's not affected much by air, so instead of buying 500ml, buy 20L at a time......
The only thing that is affected by air is developers, a few solutions:
1) Buy the 5L pack, mix as stock, and put it in one of those wine boxes, they have a mylar bladder inside, so your concentrate is not exposed to air. If it works for wine, it will work for developer. The box protects the bladder from damage, and the spigot makes it easy to control the amounts. Typically the mylar is bound to aluminum foil or other similar not-reactive materials.
2) You can mix up stock, put it in 1L glass or PET bottles, fill right to the top, use a rubber stopper instead of the plastic cap, or seal the top with wax, so the cap doesn't leak air. Keep sealed until needed. You can use 2 500ml bottles, so that only 500ml of stock is open to the air at one time.
3) Displace air with something else, typically an inert gas, like nitrogen, you fill the top of the bottle with the gas, before securing the cap. This of course, means you need a tank of the stuff, in your darkroom.
dan.c.quinn@att.net - 09 Dec 2004 04:17 GMT RE:
> glaserp@sustainsoft.com wrote: > > Does the cost of the raw materials make it more econmical? Much more so. For the most part powders and concentrates will keep many years.
I'm in the dark off, off, off, and on, and off and on and on, and off; well you get the idea. So, I had no choice but to compound all my own chemistry; a big savings and real fresh chemistry when needed. Buy a digital scale .01 gram resolution. My Acculab is much more easy and quick to use than the beam balance Ohaus I've put on the shelf. A small capacity scale will do very well. Dan
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 04:30 GMT It can, but not necessarily. Many of the chemical are sold in fixed units such as 1 lb, and the amounts used are different for different chemicals, so you end up using much less of some, and then they go bad.
For instance, sodium sulphite is used in most developers at the rate of at least 100 grammes/litre.
Metol is used at 1/50th of that, as is borax and hydroquinone (in D-76)
If you buy large amounts of glycin, metol, or hydroquinone, the cost savings will disappear because it will go bad before you use it.
If you buy small amounts of glycin, metol or hydroquinone, the cost savings will disappear because the measuring, packaging and shipping costs are higher.
David Starr - 09 Dec 2004 21:14 GMT >If you buy large amounts of glycin, metol, or hydroquinone, the cost >savings will disappear because it will go bad before you use it. > >If you buy small amounts of glycin, metol or hydroquinone, the cost >savings will disappear because the measuring, packaging and shipping >costs are higher. Except, Ansco 130 isn't available commercially. Plus, I replace the Bromide with 2.2g Metaborate.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 22:08 GMT I thought FF offered AGFA 130 equivalent.
David Starr - 10 Dec 2004 22:46 GMT >I thought FF offered AGFA 130 equivalent. But not with metaborate replacing the bromide.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 10 Dec 2004 22:56 GMT Why do that? The bromide is a restrainer, whereas metaborate is an activator!
David Starr - 11 Dec 2004 22:41 GMT >Why do that? The bromide is a restrainer, whereas metaborate is an >activator! I like the colder tones.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 11 Dec 2004 23:11 GMT Have you tried organic restrainer?
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 22:11 GMT Yup:
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID= 121&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=33&selection=0&langId=0
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 22:12 GMT Yup:
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=9&CategoryID= 33&langID=0
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID= 121&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=33&selection=0&langId=0
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 09 Dec 2004 22:27 GMT Try again:
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1 Then look under paper developers.
LR Kalajainen - 09 Dec 2004 12:12 GMT I can't mix fixer much cheaper than I can buy it, so I don't.
All my developers are home-mixed, because with the exception of Phenidone and Metol I can buy everything else at the grocery store or health food store. I also use my film developer as a one-shot, and given my technique of doing a divided paper developer, I estimate that it probably costs me mere pennies for each batch I use. It's the cheapest part of anything to do with my photo habit.
>Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >--Phil Jordan W. - 09 Dec 2004 22:00 GMT I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread yet (and this isn't specifically in reply to Larry's post) but Ed Buffaloe has a comparative cost chart for various developers on his website:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Cost/cost.html
This is based on prices circa 2000 but I think it is instructive nonetheless.
Jordan
> I can't mix fixer much cheaper than I can buy it, so I don't. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it probably costs me mere pennies for each batch I use. It's the > cheapest part of anything to do with my photo habit. dan.c.quinn@att.net - 10 Dec 2004 00:27 GMT > I can't mix fixer much cheaper than I can buy it, so I don't. Unless you are speaking of dilution as a mixing, there is no need to "mix" fix. S. Thio. which dry will last for years, or A. Thio. 60% liquid concentrate with somewhat less longevity, need no additives as long as they are used one-shot. Dilute the necessary amount of S. or A. Thio. with the needed volume of water for the task or tasks ahead. I make stock solutions and at processing time I make the final dilution.
> All my developers are home-mixed, because with the exception > of Phenidone and Metol I can buy everything else at the > grocery store or health food store. The grocery, health food, drug store, and homebrew beer/wine suppliers will have all of us Homebrewers out of business. Perhaps Photographer's Formulary, Artcraft and others can make it on metol and phenidone. Dan
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