Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004
Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ??????
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simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 15:09 GMT Dear All,
I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using fluorescein tear staining.
I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on ebay, the kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find out where i can buy one.
Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a website or somewhere that will post it to me)??
Thanks for any help
Simon
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Dec 2004 15:34 GMT > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Simon This should be available anywhere. It is just a yellow (minus blue) filter, a little wider attenuation band than the #6, #8, #9, but not as wide as a #15 or #16.
Calumet, in Chicago, certainly have them:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?PAGE=Controller&ac.ui.pn=cat.CatTree&ac.cat.CatT ree.prodIndex.param=02;Camera+Accessories;007;Camera+Filters;130;Unmounted+-+Pol yester%2C+Gelatin;239;Kodak
I am sure they would be delighted to sell you one and ship it to you.
However, I am sure Kodak in England should be abble to supply you one more expeditiously. Why not call them and ask where your nearest dealer is that would supply you with such a filter in retail quantity?
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simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 21:13 GMT i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number 12
Simon
> > Dear All, > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > expeditiously. Why not call them and ask where your nearest dealer is that > would supply you with such a filter in retail quantity? Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 03:47 GMT >i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only > seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number > 12 > > Simon Ah! Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No. 12 yellow filter, of any brand, will be a very close substitute for what you originally specified.
Nick Zentena - 02 Dec 2004 13:06 GMT >>i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only >> seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ah! Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya > numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No. 12 Or B&W. Does Heliopan use Wratten numbers? Nick
Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 14:50 GMT >> Ah! Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya >> numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No. >> 12 > > Or B&W. Does Heliopan use Wratten numbers? In fact, I don't think so. Times have changed while I wasn't looking! There should be an easy to identify equivalent to the No. 12 in these other product lines, by comparing curves.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Dec 2004 15:00 GMT > i[sic] couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website Funny, works here, Calumet has a ton (well, a few ounces) of them. Maybe it is one of those UK things. Are they still on ration?
Using google and entering:
wratten 12 uk
One finds:
http://www.silverprint.co.uk/acc6.html
I am not sure this has not all been a troll...
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Peter - 01 Dec 2004 21:23 GMT > Calumet, in Chicago, certainly have them: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I am sure they would be delighted to sell you one and ship it to you. Calumet operate in the UK too.
Peter
Nick Zentena - 01 Dec 2004 15:39 GMT > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a > website or somewhere that will post it to me)?? Does it need to be a Kodak? If you ask Lee they might be able to give you some advice.
http://www.leefilters.com/CP.asp?PageID=119
If it needs to be Kodak then you can always get it from:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=2 6344&is=REG
I'd be suprised if any good pro type shop in the UK couldn't order it for you.
Nick
friend? - 02 Dec 2004 07:10 GMT good advice. contact Lee and ask for a sampler. it contains all their filters in size 2.5 by 5 cm (around). Then experiment. the set has spectral graphs printed on separating sheets.
*simon3000 <simon3000@yahoo.com> wrote: *> Dear All, *> *> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin *> filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using *> fluorescein tear staining. *> *> I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on ebay, the *> kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find *> out where i can buy one. *> *> Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a *> website or somewhere that will post it to me)?? *> * * * Does it need to be a Kodak? If you ask Lee they might be able to give you *some advice. * *http://www.leefilters.com/CP.asp?PageID=119 * * *If it needs to be Kodak then you can always get it from: * *http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=2 6344&is=REG * * *I'd be suprised if any good pro type shop in the UK couldn't order it for you. * *Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Dec 2004 15:46 GMT > I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin > filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find > out where i can buy one. Should be a standard item. Try B&H in the US.
Are you sure you want a gel filter? They are awfully fragile. A glass photographic filter may be a better choice. A #12 is a 'deep yellow', sort of light orangish, and any camera supplier worth its salt should have them. You don't need 'Wratten #12', any deep yellow will work. Snappy-Snaps won't have it.
Also try LEE (&other) theatrical filters. In the US they hand out little sampler books of 2x3" filters for a nominal fee (free if you are actually in the theater trade).
Not to belabor the obvious, but have you tried a medical supplier catering to opthamologists and optometrists.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 20:32 GMT thanks for the info everyone.
I have no technical knowledge - i wanted a Kodak Wratten 12 because it seems to be the one that is always recommended in the field of dry eye - i believe this is because it absorbs the exact wavelengths emitted by fluorescein dye - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths yet be sturdier?
Thanks
Simon
> > I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin > > filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Not to belabor the obvious, but have you tried a medical supplier catering > to opthamologists and optometrists. Nick Zentena - 01 Dec 2004 20:57 GMT > thanks for the info everyone. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths > yet be sturdier? How are you going to use it? Hold it in your hand? Mount it? You can get glass #12. That should last almost forever if you don't step on it. Or you could get a sheet of filter material from Lee. Tell them the wavelengths you need to absorb. That's assuming you can live with the quality of lighting filters. The stuff is fairly cheap. Letting you treat it like a throw away.
Lee doesn't have much info on it's website but you could look at the Rosco one.
http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp#SPECIFICATIONS
Pick the filter that provides what you need. Stuff can be cut to size.
Nick
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Dec 2004 21:10 GMT > thanks for the info everyone. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths > yet be sturdier? You should be able to obtain glass filters with approximately the same specifications. The Wrattan filters spectrophotometric curves are in Kodak's publication B-3. The other manufacturers should also be able to give you the curves for their filters.
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Tom Phillips - 02 Dec 2004 13:15 GMT > > thanks for the info everyone. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Kodak's publication B-3. The other manufacturers should also be able to > give you the curves for their filters. Wratten Yellow No. 12 is nearly identical to the No. 15 yellow, but the 15 has very slightly stronger absorption at 500+nm. If these were being used for photographic purposes there would be virtually no difference. But with strict scientific use there may be a difference. The 12 is a minus blue filter and allows slightly more green-blue wavelengths to pass at 500-600nm.
Calumet USA does have it under Camera Accessories/filters or do a Calumet search using wratten filters.
Tiffen may also have it in glass.
> -- > .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. > /V\ Registered Machine 241939. > /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org > ^^-^^ 15:50:00 up 39 days, 18:45, 3 users, load average: 4.36, 4.20, 4.13 prep@prep.synonet.com - 03 Dec 2004 04:26 GMT > I have no technical knowledge - i wanted a Kodak Wratten 12 because > it seems to be the one that is always recommended in the field of > dry eye
> - i believe this is because it absorbs the exact wavelengths emitted > by fluorescein dye
> - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same > wavelengths yet be sturdier? A 12 is a blue cut filter, normal use was in IR false colour work. Good luck getting one out of the yellow bird... Can't remember the cutoff wavelength. Any of the good filter supliers should be able to supply a glass one that will do the job. If all else fails, try Zeis.
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Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 03:45 GMT Would an equivalent glass filter do? It is a very common yellow filter, No. 12, but usually made of glass nowadays. The transmission curve is very much the same.
Richard Knoppow - 02 Dec 2004 12:05 GMT > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Simon Kodak still makes Wratten gelatin filters, they are sold by the motion picture division in sizes from 3x3 inches to 14x18 inches. The No.12 is still listed. You may have to buy this directly from Kodak. Try their UK sales agency:
UNITED KINGDOM Entertainment Imaging Kodak Ltd. Kodak House P.O. Box 66, Station Road Hemel Hempstead Herts HP1 1JU England Phone: +44 1442 845945 Fax: +44 1442 844458
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Dec 2004 18:15 GMT > Kodak still makes Wratten gelatin filters, they are sold And at what prices ...
14x18 $863.95 6x6 151.95 3x3 23.95
I thought I would replace a missing polycontrast filter ... But I saved money and bought a dichoric head instead.
Both Wratten and Rosco publish transmission curves on the web.
http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp#Color
Not only does rosco have a #12, they have a #9, 10 and 11.
Yes, I know the numbers are not _supposed_ to be the same etc., but:
http://www.geocities.com/thombell/filters/wf12.gif
Use the Wratten table, not the chart when comparing for visual effect. The rosco chart is readable.
Interesting the yellows have a parasitic pass band in the UV, I wonder if the OP's application made use of this pass band to excite flourescein. Kodak only has ~1.5% transmittance Vs 35% in the UV.
Most likely both filters use the same dye and would have the same curves if measured in the same equipment by the same personnel.
Now the kicker:
Roscolux #12 20" x 24" sheet $5.65
That's 0.27 per square inch for Wratten, Vs .012 for rosco. If Kodak is cutting up rosco gels they are doing it with a 2250% mark up.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Nick Zentena - 02 Dec 2004 18:34 GMT > Now the kicker: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If Kodak is cutting up rosco gels they are doing it with > a 2250% mark up. But those are lighting filters. Are they good enough for use in front of th lens? I've used them for spilt printing but that's between the light source and the negative.
Nick
Richard Knoppow - 03 Dec 2004 19:53 GMT >> Now the kicker: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nick If they are lighting filters they are not gelatin but plastic and may not be suitable for use in an image forming optical system. If the filter is used in a light source plastic filters have the advantage of being cheaper and more rugged. I am not sure how the original poster is using the filter. Kodak publishes transmission charts and curves for its filters.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
??Lonely Boy?? - 02 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/wratten1.jhtml?id=0.1.4.24&lc=en
There should have ordering information. Wratten filter is now part of Kodak Motion Picture Services of Entertainment Imaging Division.
 Signature Lonely Boy http://www.hmlai.com/ -
> Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Simon RWatson767 - 02 Dec 2004 19:56 GMT Simon3000
>Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ?????? I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using fluorescein tear staining.
What size? There are or were several sizes. Some round ones also.
Bob AZ
simon3000 - 02 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk.
I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow plastic material which he held in front of the patient's fluorescein stained eyes whilst viewing them through a slit-lamp biomicroscope using a cobalt blue illumination source.
Recently I came across a medical review article by my now-retired Prof whcih states: "Fluorescein staining is the standard method used to demonstrate ocular surface damage. This orange dye, which fluoresces green when excited by blue light, is applied to the eyes. Optimal results are obtained by viewing through a yellow barrier filter, such as a Kodak Wratten 12 absorption filter, used in combination with the standard blue exciter filter of the slit lamp. This technique reveals surface damage on both the cornea and conjunctiva. Usually, staining has a characteristic distribution and is confined to the exposed interpalpebral area of the ocular surface. In the absence of a yellow filter, staining is poorly seen on the bulbar conjunctiva. With regular use of a yellow filter and routine examination of the upper bulbar conjunctiva, the clinician is unlikely to miss the diagnosis of SLK in a symptomatic patient."
I guess I'll have to email him to see where he gets them from.
Thanks
Simon
> Simon3000 > >Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ?????? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bob AZ Michael A. Covington - 03 Dec 2004 00:37 GMT Ah! You're in luck. Almost any photographic filter described as "medium yellow" (comparable to Wratten 12 or 15) will work just fine. It sounds as if an exact equivalent is not needed.
Since the size of the filter is not critical, as long as you can hold it up to your eye and look through it, I'd suggest checking secondhand filters at a store that sells used cameras.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Dec 2004 00:51 GMT > I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk. > > I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a > piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy > square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow > plastic material ... Yeah, that's what we have been trying to tell you!
Wratten #12, 3x3", B&H New York, ~$27, they ship internationally
or
Deep Yellow filter, 49/52/55 mm, ~$10-20, _any_ competent camera store. Filter is glass and comes in a metal ring. This is probably your best choice.
or
Roscolux #12, 20x24", B&H or any theatrical supply, ~$6
How is this confusing?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
friend? - 03 Dec 2004 04:19 GMT yellow filters cuts off all blue radiation from your cobalt glass filtered light source, but transmitt green radiation of excited dye. it imroves contrast of an image, making it easier to detect fine hairlines of a damage.
Wratten 12 is quite popular, was used as standard filter in color infrared photography. many other filters from various suppliers will work as well. Lee filters are of very good quality, I used them in IR photography with great success.
*I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk. * *I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a *piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy *square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow *plastic material which he held in front of the patient's fluorescein *stained eyes whilst viewing them through a slit-lamp biomicroscope *using a cobalt blue illumination source. * *Recently I came across a medical review article by my now-retired Prof *whcih states: *"Fluorescein staining is the standard method used to demonstrate *ocular surface damage. This orange dye, which fluoresces green when *excited by blue light, is applied to the eyes. Optimal results are *obtained by viewing through a yellow barrier filter, such as a Kodak *Wratten 12 absorption filter, used in combination with the standard *blue exciter filter of the slit lamp. This technique reveals surface *damage on both the cornea and conjunctiva. Usually, staining has a *characteristic distribution and is confined to the exposed *interpalpebral area of the ocular surface. In the absence of a yellow *filter, staining is poorly seen on the bulbar conjunctiva. With *regular use of a yellow filter and routine examination of the upper *bulbar conjunctiva, the clinician is unlikely to miss the diagnosis of *SLK in a symptomatic patient." * *I guess I'll have to email him to see where he gets them from. * *Thanks * *Simon * * * *rwatson767@aol.com (RWatson767) wrote in message news:<20041202145618.21692.00001185@mb-m14.aol.com>... *> Simon3000 *> >Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ?????? *> *> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter Number *> 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using fluorescein tear *> staining. *> *> What size? There are or were several sizes. Some round ones also. *> *> Bob AZ
Richard Knoppow - 03 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Simon After reading the description of the use of the filter and looking at the transmission curves in the Kodak filter manual it seems to me that a plain No.8 (K-2)or No.15 (G) might do. The No.8 transmitts somewhat more green than the No.12 but cuts off blue pretty well. The No.15 cuts off more green but has a somewhat lower tranmission in its passband, probably not significant for the use. These are very commonly used filters for black and white photography and should be easily available. Unless the filter is being used in an image forming optical system where the light is fairly convergent or divergent a gelatin filter is not necessary. Both the No.8 and No.15 are available as glass filters (actually gelatin sandwiched between optical glass blanks) and in plastic sheets. Glass filters have very good optical properties and are a lot more rugged than unprotected gelatin. Plastic filters are not as satisfactory as gelatin for use in optical systems because they are less homogenious and have a higher index of refraction but this is significant only for critical use in image forming beams as described above. For visual use any form will do and the precise spectral transmission is probably of no consequence.
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Travis Porco - 03 Dec 2004 23:19 GMT >> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten >> Gelatin >> filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with >> dry eye using >> fluorescein tear staining.
>> I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on >> ebay, the >> kodak website and various other websites but have been >> unable to find >> out where i can buy one.
>> Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK >> (preferably via a >> website or somewhere that will post it to me)??
>> Thanks for any help
>> Simon
> After reading the description of the use of the filter >and looking at the transmission curves in the Kodak filter [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >commonly used filters for black and white photography and >should be easily available. Not to butt in, but you all may have seen <a href="http://msp.rmit.edu.au/Article_02/02d.html">http://msp.rmit.edu.au/Article_02/02 d.html</a>. Apparently some people do use the Wratten 15 for what looks like a similar purpose; I suppose it depends whether or not there is a calibrated measurement of some sort involving a standard light source with the Wratten 12 filter.
You might wish to try http://www.filterfind.net in looking for these. **I hasten to add that I'm not connected with the site and profit in no way by it**. Other possibly useful sites are Edmund Optical http://www.edmundoptics.com , who sell Wratten 12 filters (I found them on the UK version of their site, priced in pounds sterling). Another place to find them is Lumicon, http://www.lumicon.com , who sell both specialty minus-violet filters for astrophotography as well as Wratten 12 in certain sizes.
HTH, --travis standard disclaimers, etc.
PATRICK GAINER - 04 Dec 2004 06:01 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > I'd be willing to bet that a piece of cleared photographic film dyed with yellow Easter egg or fabric dye would do the trick.
simon3000 - 05 Dec 2004 18:24 GMT Hello everyone,
Thanks for all the advice. I found a Kodak Wratten 12 on one of the websites suggested for a price of 29.75 euros which seems pretty steep especially if its a flimsy peice of gel which may not last long in clinical use, so the possibility of buying a cheaper/more durable glass or plastic filter is obviously very attractive to me as long as it does the required job (in this case, demonstrate green fluorescence from the surface of the eye).
From what I gather in medical textbooks: "Excitation of fluorescein occurs when exposed to blue wavelengths between 465 and 490 nm, resulting in emission of yellow-green frequencies (520-530 nm). Because various structures within the eye are capable of reflecting incoming light, a barrier filter that transmits only yellow-green fluorescent wavelengths, indicating the true position of fluorescein dye, is required. Because the excitation and emission spectra of fluorescein are relatively close in position, and may even overlap—pseudofluorescence, transmission curves of the filters should be carefully chosen to insure minimal overlap."
so does that mean the plain No.8 (K-2)or No.15 (G) mentioned would do the trick - I'm not sure what this means - is that the name of a specific filter - if so, what exactly should I ask for if a visit a photographic shop?
Thanks
Simon
> > Dear All, > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > visual use any form will do and the precise spectral > transmission is probably of no consequence. Tom Phillips - 05 Dec 2004 19:37 GMT > Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (in this case, demonstrate green fluorescence from the surface of the > eye). Get some filter frames or make a frame to sandwich the gel between and handle carefully. It should last quite a while.
> From what I gather in medical textbooks: > "Excitation of fluorescein occurs when exposed to blue wavelengths [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > specific filter - if so, what exactly should I ask for if a visit a > photographic shop? Yes, #8 Yellow, #12 Yellow, #15 Yellow are the correct names.
If the suggestion is to carefully choose the transmittance probably best to stick with #12, the minus blue. Both the 15 and 12 block all transmission in the 400 nanometer range, but the 12 allows more of the yellow green at 520-530 (which is I gather what you want and is why 12 is commonly used.) A #8 likely passes too much cyan/blue for the purpose.
> Thanks > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > visual use any form will do and the precise spectral > > transmission is probably of no consequence. simon3000@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2004 17:35 GMT > > Hello everyone, > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > fluorescein are relatively close in position, and may even > > overlap-pseudofluorescence, transmission curves of the filters should
> > be carefully chosen to insure minimal overlap." > > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > > visual use any form will do and the precise spectral > > > transmission is probably of no consequence.
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