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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004

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Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ??????

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simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 15:09 GMT
Dear All,

I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin
filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using
fluorescein tear staining.

I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on ebay, the
kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find
out where i can buy one.

Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a
website or somewhere that will post it to me)??

Thanks for any help

Simon
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Dec 2004 15:34 GMT
> Dear All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Simon

This should be available anywhere. It is just a yellow (minus blue)
filter, a little wider attenuation band than the #6, #8, #9, but not as
wide as a #15 or #16.

Calumet, in Chicago, certainly have them:

http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?PAGE=Controller&ac.ui.pn=cat.CatTree&ac.cat.CatT
ree.prodIndex.param=02;Camera+Accessories;007;Camera+Filters;130;Unmounted+-+Pol
yester%2C+Gelatin;239;Kodak


I am sure they would be delighted to sell you one and ship it to you.

However, I am sure Kodak in England should be abble to supply you one more
expeditiously. Why not call them and ask where your nearest dealer is that
would supply you with such a filter in retail quantity?

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simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 21:13 GMT
i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only
seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number
12

Simon

> > Dear All,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> expeditiously. Why not call them and ask where your nearest dealer is that
> would supply you with such a filter in retail quantity?
Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 03:47 GMT
>i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only
> seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number
> 12
>
> Simon

Ah!  Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya
numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No. 12
yellow filter, of any brand, will be a very close substitute for what you
originally specified.
Nick Zentena - 02 Dec 2004 13:06 GMT
>>i couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website - they only
>> seem to sell one particular Kodak Wratten filter which is not a number
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Ah!  Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya
> numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No. 12

 Or B&W. Does Heliopan use Wratten numbers?
 
 Nick
Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 14:50 GMT
>> Ah!  Everybody uses Wratten numbers (except for Nikon, which uses Hoya
>> numbers; on the other hand Hoya usually uses Wratten numbers)... So a No.
>> 12
>
>  Or B&W. Does Heliopan use Wratten numbers?

In fact, I don't think so.  Times have changed while I wasn't looking!
There should be an easy to identify equivalent to the No. 12 in these other
product lines, by comparing curves.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Dec 2004 15:00 GMT
> i[sic] couldn't find a wratten 12 filter on the calumet website

Funny, works here, Calumet has a ton (well, a few ounces) of them.  
Maybe it is one of those UK things.  Are they still on ration?

Using google and entering:

     wratten 12 uk

One finds:

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/acc6.html

I am not sure this has not all been a troll...

Signature

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Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
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Peter - 01 Dec 2004 21:23 GMT
> Calumet, in Chicago, certainly have them:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I am sure they would be delighted to sell you one and ship it to you.

Calumet operate in the UK too.

Peter
Nick Zentena - 01 Dec 2004 15:39 GMT
> Dear All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a
> website or somewhere that will post it to me)??

 Does it need to be a Kodak? If you ask Lee they might be able to give you
some advice.

http://www.leefilters.com/CP.asp?PageID=119

If it needs to be Kodak then you can always get it from:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=2
6344&is=REG


I'd be suprised if any good pro type shop in the UK couldn't order it for you.

Nick
friend? - 02 Dec 2004 07:10 GMT
good advice. contact Lee and ask for a sampler. it contains all their
filters in size 2.5 by 5 cm (around). Then experiment. the set has
spectral graphs printed on separating sheets.

*simon3000 <simon3000@yahoo.com> wrote:
*> Dear All,
*>
*> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin
*> filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using
*> fluorescein tear staining.
*>
*> I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on ebay, the
*> kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find
*> out where i can buy one.
*>
*> Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK (preferably via a
*> website or somewhere that will post it to me)??
*>
*
*
*  Does it need to be a Kodak? If you ask Lee they might be able to give you
*some advice.
*
*http://www.leefilters.com/CP.asp?PageID=119
*
*
*If it needs to be Kodak then you can always get it from:
*
*http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=2
6344&is=REG

*
*
*I'd be suprised if any good pro type shop in the UK couldn't order it for you.
*
*Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Dec 2004 15:46 GMT
> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin
> filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> kodak website and various other websites but have been unable to find
> out where i can buy one.

Should be a standard item.  Try B&H in the US.

Are you sure you want a gel filter?  They are awfully fragile.  A glass
photographic filter may be a better choice.  A #12 is a 'deep yellow',
sort of light orangish, and any camera supplier worth its salt should
have them.  You don't need 'Wratten #12', any deep yellow will work.
Snappy-Snaps won't have it.

Also try LEE (&other) theatrical filters.  In the US they hand out
little sampler books of 2x3" filters for a nominal fee (free if you
are actually in the theater trade).

Not to belabor the obvious, but have you tried a medical supplier catering
to opthamologists and optometrists.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

simon3000 - 01 Dec 2004 20:32 GMT
thanks for the info everyone.

I have no technical knowledge - i wanted a Kodak Wratten 12 because it
seems to be the one that is always recommended in the field of dry eye
- i believe this is because it absorbs the exact wavelengths emitted
by fluorescein dye
- are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths
yet be sturdier?

Thanks

Simon

> > I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin
> > filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Not to belabor the obvious, but have you tried a medical supplier catering
> to opthamologists and optometrists.
Nick Zentena - 01 Dec 2004 20:57 GMT
> thanks for the info everyone.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths
> yet be sturdier?

 How are you going to use it? Hold it in your hand? Mount it? You can get
glass #12. That should last almost forever if you don't step on it. Or you
could get a sheet of filter material from Lee. Tell them the wavelengths you
need to absorb. That's assuming you can live with the quality of lighting
filters. The stuff is fairly cheap. Letting you treat it like a throw away.

Lee doesn't have much info on it's website but you could look at the Rosco
one.

http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp#SPECIFICATIONS

Pick the filter that provides what you need. Stuff can be cut to size.

Nick
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Dec 2004 21:10 GMT
> thanks for the info everyone.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same wavelengths
> yet be sturdier?

You should be able to obtain glass filters with approximately the same
specifications. The Wrattan filters spectrophotometric curves are in
Kodak's publication B-3. The other manufacturers should also be able to
give you the curves for their filters.

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Tom Phillips - 02 Dec 2004 13:15 GMT
> > thanks for the info everyone.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Kodak's publication B-3. The other manufacturers should also be able to
> give you the curves for their filters.

Wratten Yellow  No. 12 is nearly identical to the No. 15 yellow,
but the 15 has very slightly stronger absorption at 500+nm. If
these were being used for photographic purposes there would be
virtually no difference. But with strict scientific use there
may be a difference. The 12 is a minus blue filter and allows
slightly more green-blue wavelengths to pass at 500-600nm.

Calumet USA does have it under Camera Accessories/filters
or do a Calumet search using wratten filters.

Tiffen may also have it in glass.

> --
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prep@prep.synonet.com - 03 Dec 2004 04:26 GMT
> I have no technical knowledge - i wanted a Kodak Wratten 12 because
> it seems to be the one that is always recommended in the field of
> dry eye

> - i believe this is because it absorbs the exact wavelengths emitted
> by fluorescein dye

> - are there other filters that would absorb the exact same
> wavelengths yet be sturdier?

A 12 is a blue cut filter, normal use was in IR false colour work.
Good luck getting one out of the yellow bird... Can't remember the
cutoff wavelength. Any of the good filter supliers should be able to
supply a glass one that will do the job. If all else fails, try Zeis.

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Michael A. Covington - 02 Dec 2004 03:45 GMT
Would an equivalent glass filter do?  It is a very common yellow filter, No.
12, but usually made of glass nowadays.  The transmission curve is very much
the same.
Richard Knoppow - 02 Dec 2004 12:05 GMT
> Dear All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Simon

  Kodak still makes Wratten gelatin filters, they are sold
by the motion picture division in sizes from 3x3 inches to
14x18 inches. The No.12 is still listed. You may have to buy
this directly from Kodak. Try their UK sales agency:

UNITED KINGDOM
Entertainment Imaging
Kodak Ltd. Kodak House
P.O. Box 66, Station Road
Hemel Hempstead
Herts HP1 1JU England
Phone: +44 1442 845945
Fax: +44 1442 844458

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Dec 2004 18:15 GMT
> Kodak still makes Wratten gelatin filters, they are sold

And at what prices ...

14x18    $863.95
 6x6      151.95
 3x3       23.95

I thought I would replace a missing polycontrast filter ...
But I saved money and bought a dichoric head instead.

Both Wratten and Rosco publish transmission curves on the
web.

http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp#Color

Not only does rosco have a #12, they have a #9, 10 and 11.

Yes, I know the numbers are not _supposed_ to be the same etc.,
but:

http://www.geocities.com/thombell/filters/wf12.gif

Use the Wratten table, not the chart when comparing for
visual effect. The rosco chart is readable.

Interesting the yellows have a parasitic pass band in the UV, I wonder
if the OP's application made use of this pass band to excite
flourescein.  Kodak only has ~1.5% transmittance Vs 35% in the
UV.

Most likely both filters use the same dye and would have the
same curves if measured in the same equipment by the same
personnel.

Now the kicker:

Roscolux #12 20" x 24" sheet $5.65

That's 0.27 per square inch for Wratten, Vs .012 for rosco.
If Kodak is cutting up rosco gels they are doing it with
a 2250% mark up.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Nick Zentena - 02 Dec 2004 18:34 GMT
> Now the kicker:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If Kodak is cutting up rosco gels they are doing it with
> a 2250% mark up.

 But those are lighting filters. Are they good enough for use in front of
th lens? I've used them for spilt printing but that's between the light
source and the negative.

      Nick
Richard Knoppow - 03 Dec 2004 19:53 GMT
>> Now the kicker:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>       Nick

 If they are lighting filters they are not gelatin but
plastic and may not be suitable for use in an image forming
optical system. If the filter is used in a light source
plastic filters have the advantage of being cheaper and more
rugged. I am not sure how the original poster is using the
filter. Kodak publishes transmission charts and curves for
its filters.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

??Lonely Boy?? - 02 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/wratten1.jhtml?id=0.1.4.24&lc=en

There should have ordering information.  Wratten filter is now part of Kodak
Motion Picture Services of Entertainment Imaging Division.

Signature

Lonely Boy
http://www.hmlai.com/
-

> Dear All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Simon
RWatson767 - 02 Dec 2004 19:56 GMT
Simon3000
>Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ??????

I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter Number
12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using fluorescein tear
staining.

What size? There are or were several sizes. Some round ones also.

Bob  AZ
simon3000 - 02 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT
I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk.

I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a
piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy
square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow
plastic material which he held in front of the patient's fluorescein
stained eyes whilst viewing them through a slit-lamp biomicroscope
using a cobalt blue illumination source.

Recently I came across a medical review article by my now-retired Prof
whcih states:
"Fluorescein staining is the standard method used to demonstrate
ocular surface damage. This orange dye, which fluoresces green when
excited by blue light, is applied to the eyes. Optimal results are
obtained by viewing through a yellow barrier filter, such as a Kodak
Wratten 12 absorption filter, used in combination with the standard
blue exciter filter of the slit lamp. This technique reveals surface
damage on both the cornea and conjunctiva. Usually, staining has a
characteristic distribution and is confined to the exposed
interpalpebral area of the ocular surface. In the absence of a yellow
filter, staining is poorly seen on the bulbar conjunctiva. With
regular use of a yellow filter and routine examination of the upper
bulbar conjunctiva, the clinician is unlikely to miss the diagnosis of
SLK in a symptomatic patient."

I guess I'll have to email him to see where he gets them from.

Thanks

Simon

> Simon3000
> >Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ??????
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Bob  AZ
Michael A. Covington - 03 Dec 2004 00:37 GMT
Ah!  You're in luck.  Almost any photographic filter described as "medium
yellow" (comparable to Wratten 12 or 15) will work just fine.  It sounds as
if an exact equivalent is not needed.

Since the size of the filter is not critical, as long as you can hold it up
to your eye and look through it, I'd suggest checking secondhand filters at
a store that sells used cameras.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 03 Dec 2004 00:51 GMT
> I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk.
>
> I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a
> piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy
> square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow
> plastic material ...

Yeah, that's what we have been trying to tell you!

Wratten #12, 3x3", B&H New York, ~$27, they ship internationally

or

Deep Yellow filter, 49/52/55 mm, ~$10-20, _any_ competent camera store.
Filter is glass and comes in a metal ring.  This is
probably your best choice.

or

Roscolux #12, 20x24", B&H or any theatrical supply, ~$6

How is this confusing?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

friend? - 03 Dec 2004 04:19 GMT
yellow filters cuts off all blue radiation from your cobalt glass
filtered light source, but transmitt green radiation of excited dye.
it imroves contrast of an image, making it easier to detect fine
hairlines of a damage.

Wratten 12 is quite popular, was used as standard filter in color
infrared photography. many other filters from various suppliers will
work as well. Lee filters are of very good quality, I used them in IR
photography with great success.

*I'm even more confused than ever now with all this technical talk.
*
*I used to work with a Professor of Ophthalmology who used to use a
*piece of Kodak Wratten gel filter no.12 - it looked like a very flimsy
*square (i'd guess approximately 3 x 3 inches in size) of yellow
*plastic material which he held in front of the patient's fluorescein
*stained eyes whilst viewing them through a slit-lamp biomicroscope
*using a cobalt blue illumination source.
*
*Recently I came across a medical review article by my now-retired Prof
*whcih states:
*"Fluorescein staining is the standard method used to demonstrate
*ocular surface damage. This orange dye, which fluoresces green when
*excited by blue light, is applied to the eyes. Optimal results are
*obtained by viewing through a yellow barrier filter, such as a Kodak
*Wratten 12 absorption filter, used in combination with the standard
*blue exciter filter of the slit lamp. This technique reveals surface
*damage on both the cornea and conjunctiva. Usually, staining has a
*characteristic distribution and is confined to the exposed
*interpalpebral area of the ocular surface. In the absence of a yellow
*filter, staining is poorly seen on the bulbar conjunctiva. With
*regular use of a yellow filter and routine examination of the upper
*bulbar conjunctiva, the clinician is unlikely to miss the diagnosis of
*SLK in a symptomatic patient."
*
*I guess I'll have to email him to see where he gets them from.
*
*Thanks
*
*Simon
*
*
*
*rwatson767@aol.com (RWatson767) wrote in message news:<20041202145618.21692.00001185@mb-m14.aol.com>...
*> Simon3000
*> >Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter no.12 ??????
*>
*> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten Gelatin filter Number
*> 12 for use in assessment of patients with dry eye using fluorescein tear
*> staining.
*>
*> What size? There are or were several sizes. Some round ones also.
*>
*> Bob  AZ
Richard Knoppow - 03 Dec 2004 20:15 GMT
> Dear All,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Simon

  After reading the description of the use of the filter
and looking at the transmission curves in the Kodak filter
manual it seems to me that a plain No.8 (K-2)or No.15 (G)
might do. The No.8 transmitts somewhat more green than the
No.12 but cuts off blue pretty well. The No.15 cuts off more
green but has a somewhat lower tranmission in its passband,
probably not significant for the use. These are very
commonly used filters for black and white photography and
should be easily available.
  Unless the filter is being used in an image forming
optical system where the light is fairly convergent or
divergent a gelatin filter is not necessary. Both the No.8
and No.15 are available as glass filters (actually gelatin
sandwiched between optical glass blanks) and in plastic
sheets. Glass filters have very good optical properties and
are a lot more rugged than unprotected gelatin. Plastic
filters are not as satisfactory as gelatin for use in
optical systems because they are less homogenious and have a
higher index of refraction but this is significant only for
critical use in image forming beams as described above. For
visual use any form will do and the precise spectral
transmission is probably of no consequence.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Travis Porco - 03 Dec 2004 23:19 GMT
>> I am a medical doctor looking to purchase a Kodak Wratten
>> Gelatin
>> filter Number 12 for use in assessment of patients with
>> dry eye using
>> fluorescein tear staining.

>> I have looked in a number of local photography shops, on
>> ebay, the
>> kodak website and various other websites but have been
>> unable to find
>> out where i can buy one.

>> Can any of you tell me where I can buy one in the UK
>> (preferably via a
>> website or somewhere that will post it to me)??

>> Thanks for any help

>> Simon

>   After reading the description of the use of the filter
>and looking at the transmission curves in the Kodak filter
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>commonly used filters for black and white photography and
>should be easily available.

Not to butt in, but you all may have seen <a href="http://msp.rmit.edu.au/Article_02/02d.html">http://msp.rmit.edu.au/Article_02/02
d.html</a
>.  Apparently
some people do use the Wratten 15 for what looks like a similar purpose; I
suppose it depends whether or not there is a calibrated measurement of some
sort involving a standard light source with the Wratten 12 filter.

You might wish to try http://www.filterfind.net in looking for these.  **I
hasten to add that I'm not connected with the site and profit in no way by
it**.  Other possibly useful sites are Edmund Optical http://www.edmundoptics.com , who sell Wratten 12 filters (I found them on the UK version of their site,
priced in pounds sterling).  Another place to find them is Lumicon, http://www.lumicon.com , who sell both specialty minus-violet filters for astrophotography
as well as Wratten 12 in certain sizes.

HTH, --travis
standard disclaimers, etc.
PATRICK GAINER - 04 Dec 2004 06:01 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>  

I'd be willing to bet that a piece of cleared photographic film dyed
with yellow Easter egg  or fabric dye would do the trick.
simon3000 - 05 Dec 2004 18:24 GMT
Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the advice.
I found a Kodak Wratten 12 on one of the websites suggested for a
price of 29.75 euros which seems pretty steep especially if its a
flimsy peice of gel which may not last long in clinical use, so the
possibility of buying a cheaper/more durable glass or plastic filter
is obviously very attractive to me as long as it does the required job
(in this case, demonstrate green fluorescence from the surface of the
eye).

From what I gather in medical textbooks:
"Excitation of fluorescein occurs when exposed to blue wavelengths
between 465 and 490 nm, resulting in emission of yellow-green
frequencies (520-530 nm).
Because various structures within the eye are capable of reflecting
incoming light, a barrier filter that transmits only yellow-green
fluorescent wavelengths, indicating the true position of fluorescein
dye, is required. Because the excitation and emission spectra of
fluorescein are relatively close in position, and may even
overlap—pseudofluorescence, transmission curves of the filters should
be carefully chosen to insure minimal overlap."

so does that mean the plain No.8 (K-2)or No.15 (G) mentioned would do
the trick - I'm not sure what this means - is that the name of a
specific filter - if so, what exactly should I ask for if a visit a
photographic shop?

Thanks

Simon

> > Dear All,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> visual use any form will do and the precise spectral
> transmission is probably of no consequence.
Tom Phillips - 05 Dec 2004 19:37 GMT
> Hello everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (in this case, demonstrate green fluorescence from the surface of the
> eye).

Get some filter frames or make a frame to sandwich the
gel between and handle carefully. It should last quite
a while.

> From what I gather in medical textbooks:
> "Excitation of fluorescein occurs when exposed to blue wavelengths
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> specific filter - if so, what exactly should I ask for if a visit a
> photographic shop?

Yes, #8 Yellow, #12 Yellow, #15 Yellow are the correct names.

If the suggestion is to carefully choose the transmittance
probably best to stick with #12, the minus blue. Both the 15
and 12 block all transmission in the 400 nanometer range, but
the 12 allows more of the yellow green at 520-530 (which is I
gather what you want and is why 12 is commonly used.) A #8
likely passes too much cyan/blue for the purpose.

> Thanks
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> > visual use any form will do and the precise spectral
> > transmission is probably of no consequence.
simon3000@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2004 17:35 GMT
> > Hello everyone,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> > fluorescein are relatively close in position, and may even
> > overlap-pseudofluorescence, transmission curves of the filters
should
> > be carefully chosen to insure minimal overlap."
> >
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> > > visual use any form will do and the precise spectral
> > > transmission is probably of no consequence.
 
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