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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Newby Question on Chemicals' shelf life...

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Jed Savage - 18 Nov 2004 01:51 GMT
So I just couldn't handle it any more.  I broke down today and bought
an enlarger!  I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming
at the mouth looking at B&H pages everyday.  Today one of my
co-workers realized I was a photographer and said he had a darkroom
setup he never uses any more.  Sold me a Beseler Printmaker 67 and
various darkroom supplies for $150.00!  Timer, trays, filters, easle,
2 dev tanks, and more!  >;D

Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get
some chemical.  Which brings me to my question.  What's the shelf life
on mixed chem?  I've heard different things from different people -
the lady at the local camera shop here said 24 hours.  But I'm guess
now she meant left un-covered.  I'm thinking I'll get everything dry
and just mix what I need at the time.  I'm not going to go all out and
get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for
suggestions here.

Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?  What
about flamibility?  Or using my fingers in the trays?

Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
online?

Thank all!

:)
Gregory W Blank - 18 Nov 2004 02:50 GMT
> So I just couldn't handle it any more.  I broke down today and bought
> an enlarger!  I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> various darkroom supplies for $150.00!  Timer, trays, filters, easle,
> 2 dev tanks, and more!  >;D

Cool my first used setup cost 300,...about the same type
a Durst M600.

> Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get
> some chemical.  Which brings me to my question.  What's the shelf life
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for
> suggestions here.

Thats for working solution in the tray uncovered. Covered I have used
dektol with acceptable results  (for somethings up to three days) in the
winter (my darkroom in the basement is cold).

Stock solution mixed from the powder
should be good for at least 1 month for Dektol.

> Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?  What
> about flamibility?  Or using my fingers in the trays?

Film cleaner is probably the only flamable and rather nasty smelling
stuff, you may want an exhaust fan but fixer, acid stop does not both me.
Most bathroom have an exhaust fan. Some of the prefab darkroom fans
have adapters so you can hook to a board with a hole cut and put it in the
window.

> Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
> online?

Considered hazmat,....really sucks Imop.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 18 Nov 2004 04:44 GMT
> > Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get
> > some chemical.  Which brings me to my question.  What's the shelf life
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> dektol with acceptable results  (for somethings up to three days) in the
> winter (my darkroom in the basement is cold).

I'll sometimes store dektol working in a full,
tightly sealed glass jar for 2-5 days. Even
then it oxidizes...

> Stock solution mixed from the powder
> should be good for at least 1 month for Dektol.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Christian Kolinski - 18 Nov 2004 02:56 GMT
> So I just couldn't handle it any more.  I broke down today and bought
> an enlarger!  I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> various darkroom supplies for $150.00!  Timer, trays, filters, easle,
> 2 dev tanks, and more!  >;D

Wow, quite a good deal!

> Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get
> some chemical.  Which brings me to my question.  What's the shelf life
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for
> suggestions here.

Well, thats different.
You have to seperate the shelf life of stock-solution and working solution.
Stock solution of developers keep quite a while, several month if keept in
a light and air thight bottle. Some - like Rodinal - can be used for years.

Working solutions should only be used for a few hours. Rodinal working-
solution degenerates whithin one hour, most paper developers degenerates
in about a day when keept in a tray.

Don't worry about the shelf life of stop-bath - it's less than a cent
a tray. So use fresh one.

Fix - well, it's most propably exhausted before it degenerates.

> Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?  What
> about flamibility?  Or using my fingers in the trays?

Well, open the window after you finished your work in the darkroom.
The fumes aren't very healthy but nothing to worry about when spending
only a few hours a week in the darkroom and open the window every 2 or 3
hours.

Don't use your fingers in the trays.

> Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
> online?

Don't know, never used one - vinegar acid is much cheaper.

Christian
Tom Phillips - 18 Nov 2004 04:26 GMT
> So I just couldn't handle it any more.  I broke down today and bought
> an enlarger!  I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> some chemical.  Which brings me to my question.  What's the shelf life
> on mixed chem?  

Usually tells on the package. Developers should
be used immediately; they oxidize quickly (within
hours.)

>I've heard different things from different people -
> the lady at the local camera shop here said 24 hours.  

For working solutions. Stock solutions generally last
3-6 months.

Life of chemistry (other than working solutions for
developer, hypo clearing agent and other solutions that
oxidize quickly) depends on darkroom conditions and
storage. Cool conditions and glass bottles facilitate
longer lasting storage.

> But I'm guess
> now she meant left un-covered.  I'm thinking I'll get everything dry
> and just mix what I need at the time.  

Packaged chems should be mixed by the package. Don't divide
and "mix what you need" with powders. Concentrates are
different and can be mixed as needed.

> I'm not going to go all out and
> get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for
> suggestions here.
>
> Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?  What
> about flamibility?  Or using my fingers in the trays?

Probably shouldn't smoke in the darkroom anyway.

Immersing hands in chemistry depends on personal
susceptability to various substances. basic developers,
stop, fix are generally benign. Pyro can make some people
ill. Selenium toner is toxic and gloves are generally
advised for long term exposure.

> Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
> online?

Try photoformulary.com or freestylephoto.biz
Dickless Cheney - 18 Nov 2004 05:57 GMT
What's the shelf life
> on mixed chem?

One shot...hours

 I'm thinking I'll get everything dry
> and just mix what I need at the time.  I'm not going to go all out and
> get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for
> suggestions here.

I use both the Ilfod and Agfa paper developers, both of which come in
bottles, work well, and will keep for years. And for film, learn the
benefits of HC-110.

> Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?

YMMV. I know people who faint at a whiff of acetic acid, but none of that
stuff bothers me. Just use the bathroom fan.

What
> about flamibility?

Are you trolling?

Or using my fingers in the trays?

Ixnay ofn the ingersfay. Use the latex gloves if you MUST get your hands
wet.

> Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
> online?

Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt.
Gregory W Blank - 18 Nov 2004 13:36 GMT
> Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt.

Kosher Salt ? Interesting.
Lox anyone :-)
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 18 Nov 2004 16:13 GMT
...
>Kosher Salt ? Interesting.
>Lox anyone :-)

nov1804 from Lloyd Erlick,

You can use Lox on your prints but they will attract
cats.

--le
Jed Savage - 19 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT
No, I have another room (besides the bathroom) I was thinking of
converting into a darkroom eventually, but there's a water heater in
there.  So my concern is with the pilot light.  I doubt the fumes
would be concentrated enough even if they are flamable as I'll be
venting anyway.

> "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message
> What
> > about flamibility?
>
> Are you trolling?
Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 02:38 GMT
> No, I have another room (besides the bathroom) I was thinking of
> converting into a darkroom eventually, but there's a water heater in
> there.  So my concern is with the pilot light.  I doubt the fumes
> would be concentrated enough even if they are flamable as I'll be
> venting anyway.

Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a
full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater
frame around it.

> > "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message
> > What
> > > about flamibility?
> >
> > Are you trolling?
Jed - 19 Nov 2004 03:00 GMT
The heater is actually in a closet, so it won't be too hard to mask any
light coming from it.  I just don't want to end up blowing myself up. :P

> Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a
> full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater
> frame around it.
Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 06:10 GMT
> The heater is actually in a closet, so it won't be too hard to mask any
> light coming from it.  I just don't want to end up blowing myself up. :P

Typical film/print chemicals are not flammable.
But probably a good idea to seal it off from
the room.

> > Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a
> > full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater
> > frame around it.
Jed - 19 Nov 2004 03:03 GMT
> "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message
> >
> > Oh...  one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath
> > online?
>
> Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt.

Kosher salt?  You're joking right?

I've heard of using vinegar...  also citric acid from a grocery store.  
Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap.  The only reason I
would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor.
Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 05:59 GMT
> > "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap.  The only reason I
> would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor.

It's not cheap if you have to order glacial acetic acid,
which is what a lot of us prefer and then dilute to 1-2%
stop bath. Hazardous shipping charges apply.

White distilled Vinegar = a 5% solution of glacial acetic
acid. Odor is the same.
Jed Savage - 19 Nov 2004 14:10 GMT
I'd use citric acid for oder problems.
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 15:09 GMT
>> "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap.  The only reason I
>would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor.

nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

'Kosher salt' is a term invented by people like my
grandmother, whose English was limited but who knew
what they meant. Meat has to be put through a certain
procedure before being consumed, in order to be
considered Kosher (literally, 'clean', fit for human
consumption). Part of the procedure is rubbing the meat
with what my ancestors came to call Kosher salt. The
term was not meant to denote salt that is Kosher, but
salt that is used to render meat Kosher. Kosherizing
salt, as I used to joke with my mother. It was (and is)
sold in grocery stores and supermarkets in small
containers, often marked (you guessed it) Kosher salt.

Darkroom workers might be more familiar with the actual
scientific name for Kosher salt, which is citric acid.
I don't think my grandmother's vocabulary included
either 'citric' or 'acid'.

I wouldn't buy citric acid in this form for two
reasons: first, it is vastly overpriced in small
containers (I bought some for C$3.00 a kilogram, so
it's cheap, but I had to buy 25 kg to get that price),
and second, some brands of something as amorphously
termed as 'Kosher salt' might indeed turn out to be
salt (sodium chloride) that is considered Kosher.

Getting rid of odor in my darkroom has been a very
important activity for me.

At first I deleted acetic acid stop bath, because
citric acid makes an absolutely odorless solution. That
alone justifies its place in the darkroom, as far as
I'm concerned. I still like vinegar on my French fries,
but it's been many years since I liked that odor in my
darkroom. Over the long term I found several odors that
became abhorrent. Acetic acid is one, but sulfur
dioxide is by far my most detested (I'm sure sulfur
dioxide is the gas most people call 'fumes' in the
darkroom). Sulfur dioxide is generated by combining
sulfite and acid; I used to dribble both into my sink
practically under my nose, which sulfur dioxide bites.
So no more acid of any kind, no more smell.

Anything in the darkroom that I don't like is nothing
but an impediment to getting in there and doing my
work. Smell is a fatiguing factor, in my opinion.

In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity
to survive, the next generation should get a good
impression when they visit someone's darkroom. If I
show some kids my darkroom when they come by with their
mothers for a portrait, I don't want Mom's nose getting
bitten by 'fumes'. Those kids probably wouldn't become
darkroomies.

regards,
--le
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 18:32 GMT
> 'Kosher salt' is a term invented by people like my
> grandmother, whose English was limited but who knew
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> sold in grocery stores and supermarkets in small
> containers, often marked (you guessed it) Kosher salt.

Wait something isn't Kosher about all this:-)

In the Giant the sell big boxes of Kosher Salt (I know its
Kosher because it has Jewish star on it :-D

Anyway:

Its big crystals and is
sea salt that's been blessed by a Rabi.
So techanically its Kosher Salt as well?
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 20:06 GMT
...

>Its big crystals and is
>sea salt that's been blessed by a Rabi.
>So techanically its Kosher Salt as well?

nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

I'd say that was table salt (sodium chloride or
whatever is in sea salt) that has been deemed Kosher
(blessed). This is why I wouldn't buy any such stuff
for the darkroom. The words Kosher salt don't really
have a consistent meaning if you want to apply
scientific darkroom principles rigourously in the
English language, or something equally wordy...

regards
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Mark in Maine - 19 Nov 2004 19:04 GMT
>Darkroom workers might be more familiar with the actual
>scientific name for Kosher salt, which is citric acid.
>I don't think my grandmother's vocabulary included
>either 'citric' or 'acid'.

This is news to me - will have to check out the kosher section in our
local store.  In addition to darkroom work, I cook and bake quite a
bit - I buy Mortons kosher salt, which is indeed NaCl, with minimal
additives, and coursely ground.  I also use an ingredient 'Sour Salt'
in some recipies which I believe is citric acid.

I believe that meat can be Koshered with either.

Mark
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 19:23 GMT
> I believe that meat can be Koshered with either.
> Mark

Things used to be considered kosher if a rabbi blessed
them, now I seem IIRC that the manufacturers only have to
have a have a document stating that a rabbi somewhere endorses or
blesses the product. That is in order to call the item "kosher".

So theoritically if your brother is a Rabbi and he blesses your
camera you could have Kosher Kodachromes :-D
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 21:11 GMT
>> I believe that meat can be Koshered with either.
>> Mark
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>So theoritically if your brother is a Rabbi and he blesses your
>camera you could have Kosher Kodachromes :-D

nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, I've read the same thing. I think it's because the
food industry has grown so much while the numbers of
rabbis are not so much greater than in the past. Of
course, those papers cost a fee, so no doubt there is
the good ol' profit motive.

The newsgroup tor.general (Toronto General) has an
interesting group of trolls and racists. Jew-bashing is
a favorite sport on this group (don't worry, lots of
others get fully equal bashing time) and this
subscription to blessings by Rabbi paid for by food
manufacturers is being called a Jew Tax. You see, Jews
are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats,
everywhere...

It's  fascinating where the darkroom leads one, because
I first learned about this business in the course of
finding suppliers of raw chemicals for my darkroom.
Many common darkroom chemicals are also food, and as
such are listed in a thing called the Food and Chemical
Codex (FCC), which is put together by a number of
religions working together. I've purchased a few things
in twenty five kilo bags that were marked Kosher, and
Halal too if I recall correctly. I guess there's
Reagent grade, Technical grade, Photo grade, and ...
Kosher grade??

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 21:41 GMT
> The newsgroup tor.general (Toronto General) has an
> interesting group of trolls and racists. Jew-bashing is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats,
> everywhere...

As I hope you know ,..I am very tolerant and really have no
race related issues, nor do I encourage them to form.
Its just some of the idiots I have trouble, with regardless
of denomination.

> I guess there's
> Reagent grade, Technical grade, Photo grade, and ...
> Kosher grade??

Boy, I am I glad that not the case here,...that
would really put me in a pickle.

LOL.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Nick Zentena - 19 Nov 2004 22:22 GMT
> subscription to blessings by Rabbi paid for by food
> manufacturers is being called a Jew Tax. You see, Jews
> are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats,
> everywhere...

 I don't think any blessing happens. It's more an inspector comes by and
makes sure everything is made to a certain standard. Around the holidays
you'll see the labels on many things that normally aren't labelled kosher.

     

Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 20 Nov 2004 06:37 GMT
If you use kosher salt as a stop bath, does that make the gelatin
in the paper kosher?

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Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 21:11 GMT
... I buy Mortons kosher salt, which is indeed NaCl,
with minimal
>additives, and coursely ground.  I also use an ingredient 'Sour Salt'
>in some recipies which I believe is citric acid.
>
>I believe that meat can be Koshered with either.
>
>Mark

nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, and I think that is where the confusion comes in.
My folks also used the term sour salts, and it seemed
synonymous with Kosher salt. There must be plenty of
later-generation Jews who have lost what little
specificity the words ever had. (My folks never
measured ingredients, never wrote down any recipes, and
never worked from a written recipe. And never knew the
correct words for the ingredients either. Does this
start to resemble a reason for a weirdo like me to take
to the darkroom??)

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Dan Quinn - 21 Nov 2004 00:15 GMT
> In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity
> to survive, the next generation should get a good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bitten by 'fumes'. Those kids probably wouldn't become
> darkroomies.

 They "should get a" CORRECT impression also. Even Dr.
Gudzinowicz hedges his distrust of other than the seventy or
eighty year old acid stop/acid fix method to "very alkaline"
post developer processing. I'd suppose that concern also
extends to "very alkaline" developers.
 The doctor worries' are of the effects very alkaline solutions
can have on today's hardener incorporated emulsions, physical
development from developer carry over into a continuing
alkaline environment, and swelling of the gelatin due
to osmosis when water "stoping".
 I don't buy that last one perhaps because I've a background in
physics. As I've pointed out acid-stops are 98%, give or take,
H2O. So we have a 98:2 ratio and fast small H20 molecules
verses larger slower acid molecules. I think the shoe
fits equally well as for swell, water or acid stop.
 Also the doctor's concerns center about solutions of high ionic
strength, ie D76 and Dektol, 1:1, and of course fixers used at
the usuall strengths, acid or otherwise. That is, emulsions
moved from such fixers to water or hca baths will
experience osmotic swell.
 My experience with film and paper and the fact that developer
and fixer and emulsions do coexist in mono-baths and P. Gainers
own testimony leave me to doubt there is any problem with
physical development.
 I use all photographic chemistry one-shot and very dilute.
I don't worry about any of the above. Nor are there any bothering
fumes or oder thanks to the chemistry's non-acid nature.      Dan
Tom Phillips - 21 Nov 2004 02:10 GMT
> > In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity
> > to survive, the next generation should get a good
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   They "should get a" CORRECT impression also.

Using words like "correct" and "virtuous" to describe
or promote individual preferences in darkroom proceedures
borders on the religious..

I also have no bothering fumes. Use glacial acetic and
A. thio non-hardened. Never even smell it unless I stick
my nose right in the solution.

Course I also have very good ventilation since I also
like fresh air and filtering dust. I think most moms
would prefer that, knowing their child is in an OSHA
aafe environment  :-)

> Even Dr.
> Gudzinowicz hedges his distrust of other than the seventy or
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I don't worry about any of the above. Nor are there any bothering
> fumes or oder thanks to the chemistry's non-acid nature.      Dan
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 18 Nov 2004 16:13 GMT
>...
>Also, I'm curious about safety.  Are the fumes pretty unhealthy?  What
>about flamibility?  Or using my fingers in the trays?
...

nov1804 from Lloyd Erlick,

There is no need for a darkroom to have "fumes". There
are darkroom products sold that smell badly, but even
these are unnecessary. It is easy to do all ordinary
black and white darkroom procedures free of odor.

It is also easy to do all normal processing with zero
chemical-skin contact.

Danger of fire in the darkroom is always an issue in
the sense that it is always something to keep in mind
in normal life. But normal darkroom materials are no
special fire hazard. Whether you're working in the
kitchen or the darkroom, safe practice is a must.

I have placed articles about these matters on my
website, under the 'technical' heading in the table of
contents.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

PATRICK GAINER - 21 Nov 2004 02:20 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
>  

Since there is no need for Kosher chemicals in the darkroom (who's going
to consume them?), if you want sodium chloride, which is useful in the
darkroom, you probably want iodine-free salt with no other stuff in it,
and Morten's or other brand of canning salt works. Citric acid is used
in cooking and canning to prevent discoloring of various fruits and
vegetables where the sour taste is not a hindrance.
 
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