Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
Newby Question on Chemicals' shelf life...
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Jed Savage - 18 Nov 2004 01:51 GMT So I just couldn't handle it any more. I broke down today and bought an enlarger! I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming at the mouth looking at B&H pages everyday. Today one of my co-workers realized I was a photographer and said he had a darkroom setup he never uses any more. Sold me a Beseler Printmaker 67 and various darkroom supplies for $150.00! Timer, trays, filters, easle, 2 dev tanks, and more! >;D
Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get some chemical. Which brings me to my question. What's the shelf life on mixed chem? I've heard different things from different people - the lady at the local camera shop here said 24 hours. But I'm guess now she meant left un-covered. I'm thinking I'll get everything dry and just mix what I need at the time. I'm not going to go all out and get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for suggestions here.
Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? What about flamibility? Or using my fingers in the trays?
Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath online?
Thank all!
:) Gregory W Blank - 18 Nov 2004 02:50 GMT > So I just couldn't handle it any more. I broke down today and bought > an enlarger! I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > various darkroom supplies for $150.00! Timer, trays, filters, easle, > 2 dev tanks, and more! >;D Cool my first used setup cost 300,...about the same type a Durst M600.
> Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get > some chemical. Which brings me to my question. What's the shelf life [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for > suggestions here. Thats for working solution in the tray uncovered. Covered I have used dektol with acceptable results (for somethings up to three days) in the winter (my darkroom in the basement is cold). Stock solution mixed from the powder should be good for at least 1 month for Dektol.
> Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? What > about flamibility? Or using my fingers in the trays? Film cleaner is probably the only flamable and rather nasty smelling stuff, you may want an exhaust fan but fixer, acid stop does not both me. Most bathroom have an exhaust fan. Some of the prefab darkroom fans have adapters so you can hook to a board with a hole cut and put it in the window.
> Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath > online? Considered hazmat,....really sucks Imop.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 18 Nov 2004 04:44 GMT > > Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get > > some chemical. Which brings me to my question. What's the shelf life [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > dektol with acceptable results (for somethings up to three days) in the > winter (my darkroom in the basement is cold). I'll sometimes store dektol working in a full, tightly sealed glass jar for 2-5 days. Even then it oxidizes...
> Stock solution mixed from the powder > should be good for at least 1 month for Dektol. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Christian Kolinski - 18 Nov 2004 02:56 GMT > So I just couldn't handle it any more. I broke down today and bought > an enlarger! I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > various darkroom supplies for $150.00! Timer, trays, filters, easle, > 2 dev tanks, and more! >;D Wow, quite a good deal!
> Anyway, all I need is to figure out a crude bathroom setup and get > some chemical. Which brings me to my question. What's the shelf life [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for > suggestions here. Well, thats different. You have to seperate the shelf life of stock-solution and working solution. Stock solution of developers keep quite a while, several month if keept in a light and air thight bottle. Some - like Rodinal - can be used for years.
Working solutions should only be used for a few hours. Rodinal working- solution degenerates whithin one hour, most paper developers degenerates in about a day when keept in a tray.
Don't worry about the shelf life of stop-bath - it's less than a cent a tray. So use fresh one.
Fix - well, it's most propably exhausted before it degenerates.
> Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? What > about flamibility? Or using my fingers in the trays? Well, open the window after you finished your work in the darkroom. The fumes aren't very healthy but nothing to worry about when spending only a few hours a week in the darkroom and open the window every 2 or 3 hours.
Don't use your fingers in the trays.
> Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath > online? Don't know, never used one - vinegar acid is much cheaper.
Christian
Tom Phillips - 18 Nov 2004 04:26 GMT > So I just couldn't handle it any more. I broke down today and bought > an enlarger! I've been thinking about it for a while now and foaming [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > some chemical. Which brings me to my question. What's the shelf life > on mixed chem? Usually tells on the package. Developers should be used immediately; they oxidize quickly (within hours.)
>I've heard different things from different people - > the lady at the local camera shop here said 24 hours. For working solutions. Stock solutions generally last 3-6 months.
Life of chemistry (other than working solutions for developer, hypo clearing agent and other solutions that oxidize quickly) depends on darkroom conditions and storage. Cool conditions and glass bottles facilitate longer lasting storage.
> But I'm guess > now she meant left un-covered. I'm thinking I'll get everything dry > and just mix what I need at the time. Packaged chems should be mixed by the package. Don't divide and "mix what you need" with powders. Concentrates are different and can be mixed as needed.
> I'm not going to go all out and > get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for > suggestions here. > > Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? What > about flamibility? Or using my fingers in the trays? Probably shouldn't smoke in the darkroom anyway.
Immersing hands in chemistry depends on personal susceptability to various substances. basic developers, stop, fix are generally benign. Pyro can make some people ill. Selenium toner is toxic and gloves are generally advised for long term exposure.
> Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath > online? Try photoformulary.com or freestylephoto.biz
Dickless Cheney - 18 Nov 2004 05:57 GMT What's the shelf life
> on mixed chem? One shot...hours
I'm thinking I'll get everything dry
> and just mix what I need at the time. I'm not going to go all out and > get a scale or anything like that, but I thought I'd ask for > suggestions here. I use both the Ilfod and Agfa paper developers, both of which come in bottles, work well, and will keep for years. And for film, learn the benefits of HC-110.
> Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? YMMV. I know people who faint at a whiff of acetic acid, but none of that stuff bothers me. Just use the bathroom fan.
What
> about flamibility? Are you trolling?
Or using my fingers in the trays?
Ixnay ofn the ingersfay. Use the latex gloves if you MUST get your hands wet.
> Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath > online? Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt.
Gregory W Blank - 18 Nov 2004 13:36 GMT > Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt. Kosher Salt ? Interesting. Lox anyone :-)
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 18 Nov 2004 16:13 GMT ...
>Kosher Salt ? Interesting. >Lox anyone :-) nov1804 from Lloyd Erlick,
You can use Lox on your prints but they will attract cats.
--le
Jed Savage - 19 Nov 2004 01:31 GMT No, I have another room (besides the bathroom) I was thinking of converting into a darkroom eventually, but there's a water heater in there. So my concern is with the pilot light. I doubt the fumes would be concentrated enough even if they are flamable as I'll be venting anyway.
> "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message > What > > about flamibility? > > Are you trolling? Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 02:38 GMT > No, I have another room (besides the bathroom) I was thinking of > converting into a darkroom eventually, but there's a water heater in > there. So my concern is with the pilot light. I doubt the fumes > would be concentrated enough even if they are flamable as I'll be > venting anyway. Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater frame around it.
> > "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message > > What > > > about flamibility? > > > > Are you trolling? Jed - 19 Nov 2004 03:00 GMT The heater is actually in a closet, so it won't be too hard to mask any light coming from it. I just don't want to end up blowing myself up. :P
> Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a > full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater > frame around it. Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 06:10 GMT > The heater is actually in a closet, so it won't be too hard to mask any > light coming from it. I just don't want to end up blowing myself up. :P Typical film/print chemicals are not flammable. But probably a good idea to seal it off from the room.
> > Pilot lights can be _very_ bright if they go to a > > full burn. I'd say fog. I'd move the water heater > > frame around it. Jed - 19 Nov 2004 03:03 GMT > "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message > > > > Oh... one more thing... and why can't I buy indicator stop-bath > > online? > > Who cares? Use vinegar, or Kosher salt. Kosher salt? You're joking right?
I've heard of using vinegar... also citric acid from a grocery store. Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap. The only reason I would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor.
Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 05:59 GMT > > "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap. The only reason I > would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor. It's not cheap if you have to order glacial acetic acid, which is what a lot of us prefer and then dilute to 1-2% stop bath. Hazardous shipping charges apply.
White distilled Vinegar = a 5% solution of glacial acetic acid. Odor is the same.
Jed Savage - 19 Nov 2004 14:10 GMT I'd use citric acid for oder problems.
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 15:09 GMT >> "Jed Savage" <jaedend@charter.net> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Seems pointless though as stop bath is so cheap. The only reason I >would use anything "home-made" would be to get rid of odor. nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,
'Kosher salt' is a term invented by people like my grandmother, whose English was limited but who knew what they meant. Meat has to be put through a certain procedure before being consumed, in order to be considered Kosher (literally, 'clean', fit for human consumption). Part of the procedure is rubbing the meat with what my ancestors came to call Kosher salt. The term was not meant to denote salt that is Kosher, but salt that is used to render meat Kosher. Kosherizing salt, as I used to joke with my mother. It was (and is) sold in grocery stores and supermarkets in small containers, often marked (you guessed it) Kosher salt.
Darkroom workers might be more familiar with the actual scientific name for Kosher salt, which is citric acid. I don't think my grandmother's vocabulary included either 'citric' or 'acid'.
I wouldn't buy citric acid in this form for two reasons: first, it is vastly overpriced in small containers (I bought some for C$3.00 a kilogram, so it's cheap, but I had to buy 25 kg to get that price), and second, some brands of something as amorphously termed as 'Kosher salt' might indeed turn out to be salt (sodium chloride) that is considered Kosher.
Getting rid of odor in my darkroom has been a very important activity for me.
At first I deleted acetic acid stop bath, because citric acid makes an absolutely odorless solution. That alone justifies its place in the darkroom, as far as I'm concerned. I still like vinegar on my French fries, but it's been many years since I liked that odor in my darkroom. Over the long term I found several odors that became abhorrent. Acetic acid is one, but sulfur dioxide is by far my most detested (I'm sure sulfur dioxide is the gas most people call 'fumes' in the darkroom). Sulfur dioxide is generated by combining sulfite and acid; I used to dribble both into my sink practically under my nose, which sulfur dioxide bites. So no more acid of any kind, no more smell.
Anything in the darkroom that I don't like is nothing but an impediment to getting in there and doing my work. Smell is a fatiguing factor, in my opinion.
In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity to survive, the next generation should get a good impression when they visit someone's darkroom. If I show some kids my darkroom when they come by with their mothers for a portrait, I don't want Mom's nose getting bitten by 'fumes'. Those kids probably wouldn't become darkroomies.
regards, --le
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 18:32 GMT > 'Kosher salt' is a term invented by people like my > grandmother, whose English was limited but who knew [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > sold in grocery stores and supermarkets in small > containers, often marked (you guessed it) Kosher salt. Wait something isn't Kosher about all this:-)
In the Giant the sell big boxes of Kosher Salt (I know its Kosher because it has Jewish star on it :-D
Anyway:
Its big crystals and is sea salt that's been blessed by a Rabi. So techanically its Kosher Salt as well?
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 20:06 GMT ...
>Its big crystals and is >sea salt that's been blessed by a Rabi. >So techanically its Kosher Salt as well? nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,
I'd say that was table salt (sodium chloride or whatever is in sea salt) that has been deemed Kosher (blessed). This is why I wouldn't buy any such stuff for the darkroom. The words Kosher salt don't really have a consistent meaning if you want to apply scientific darkroom principles rigourously in the English language, or something equally wordy...
regards --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Mark in Maine - 19 Nov 2004 19:04 GMT >Darkroom workers might be more familiar with the actual >scientific name for Kosher salt, which is citric acid. >I don't think my grandmother's vocabulary included >either 'citric' or 'acid'. This is news to me - will have to check out the kosher section in our local store. In addition to darkroom work, I cook and bake quite a bit - I buy Mortons kosher salt, which is indeed NaCl, with minimal additives, and coursely ground. I also use an ingredient 'Sour Salt' in some recipies which I believe is citric acid.
I believe that meat can be Koshered with either.
Mark
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 19:23 GMT > I believe that meat can be Koshered with either. > Mark Things used to be considered kosher if a rabbi blessed them, now I seem IIRC that the manufacturers only have to have a have a document stating that a rabbi somewhere endorses or blesses the product. That is in order to call the item "kosher".
So theoritically if your brother is a Rabbi and he blesses your camera you could have Kosher Kodachromes :-D
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 21:11 GMT >> I believe that meat can be Koshered with either. >> Mark [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So theoritically if your brother is a Rabbi and he blesses your >camera you could have Kosher Kodachromes :-D nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,
Yes, I've read the same thing. I think it's because the food industry has grown so much while the numbers of rabbis are not so much greater than in the past. Of course, those papers cost a fee, so no doubt there is the good ol' profit motive.
The newsgroup tor.general (Toronto General) has an interesting group of trolls and racists. Jew-bashing is a favorite sport on this group (don't worry, lots of others get fully equal bashing time) and this subscription to blessings by Rabbi paid for by food manufacturers is being called a Jew Tax. You see, Jews are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats, everywhere...
It's fascinating where the darkroom leads one, because I first learned about this business in the course of finding suppliers of raw chemicals for my darkroom. Many common darkroom chemicals are also food, and as such are listed in a thing called the Food and Chemical Codex (FCC), which is put together by a number of religions working together. I've purchased a few things in twenty five kilo bags that were marked Kosher, and Halal too if I recall correctly. I guess there's Reagent grade, Technical grade, Photo grade, and ... Kosher grade??
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 21:41 GMT > The newsgroup tor.general (Toronto General) has an > interesting group of trolls and racists. Jew-bashing is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats, > everywhere... As I hope you know ,..I am very tolerant and really have no race related issues, nor do I encourage them to form. Its just some of the idiots I have trouble, with regardless of denomination.
> I guess there's > Reagent grade, Technical grade, Photo grade, and ... > Kosher grade?? Boy, I am I glad that not the case here,...that would really put me in a pickle.
LOL.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Nick Zentena - 19 Nov 2004 22:22 GMT > subscription to blessings by Rabbi paid for by food > manufacturers is being called a Jew Tax. You see, Jews > are collecting a tax on all food everyone eats, > everywhere... I don't think any blessing happens. It's more an inspector comes by and makes sure everything is made to a certain standard. Around the holidays you'll see the labels on many things that normally aren't labelled kosher.
Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 20 Nov 2004 06:37 GMT If you use kosher salt as a stop bath, does that make the gelatin in the paper kosher?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 21:11 GMT ... I buy Mortons kosher salt, which is indeed NaCl, with minimal
>additives, and coursely ground. I also use an ingredient 'Sour Salt' >in some recipies which I believe is citric acid. > >I believe that meat can be Koshered with either. > >Mark nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,
Yes, and I think that is where the confusion comes in. My folks also used the term sour salts, and it seemed synonymous with Kosher salt. There must be plenty of later-generation Jews who have lost what little specificity the words ever had. (My folks never measured ingredients, never wrote down any recipes, and never worked from a written recipe. And never knew the correct words for the ingredients either. Does this start to resemble a reason for a weirdo like me to take to the darkroom??)
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Dan Quinn - 21 Nov 2004 00:15 GMT > In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity > to survive, the next generation should get a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bitten by 'fumes'. Those kids probably wouldn't become > darkroomies. They "should get a" CORRECT impression also. Even Dr. Gudzinowicz hedges his distrust of other than the seventy or eighty year old acid stop/acid fix method to "very alkaline" post developer processing. I'd suppose that concern also extends to "very alkaline" developers. The doctor worries' are of the effects very alkaline solutions can have on today's hardener incorporated emulsions, physical development from developer carry over into a continuing alkaline environment, and swelling of the gelatin due to osmosis when water "stoping". I don't buy that last one perhaps because I've a background in physics. As I've pointed out acid-stops are 98%, give or take, H2O. So we have a 98:2 ratio and fast small H20 molecules verses larger slower acid molecules. I think the shoe fits equally well as for swell, water or acid stop. Also the doctor's concerns center about solutions of high ionic strength, ie D76 and Dektol, 1:1, and of course fixers used at the usuall strengths, acid or otherwise. That is, emulsions moved from such fixers to water or hca baths will experience osmotic swell. My experience with film and paper and the fact that developer and fixer and emulsions do coexist in mono-baths and P. Gainers own testimony leave me to doubt there is any problem with physical development. I use all photographic chemistry one-shot and very dilute. I don't worry about any of the above. Nor are there any bothering fumes or oder thanks to the chemistry's non-acid nature. Dan
Tom Phillips - 21 Nov 2004 02:10 GMT > > In addition, if we want traditional darkroom activity > > to survive, the next generation should get a good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > They "should get a" CORRECT impression also. Using words like "correct" and "virtuous" to describe or promote individual preferences in darkroom proceedures borders on the religious..
I also have no bothering fumes. Use glacial acetic and A. thio non-hardened. Never even smell it unless I stick my nose right in the solution.
Course I also have very good ventilation since I also like fresh air and filtering dust. I think most moms would prefer that, knowing their child is in an OSHA aafe environment :-)
> Even Dr. > Gudzinowicz hedges his distrust of other than the seventy or [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I don't worry about any of the above. Nor are there any bothering > fumes or oder thanks to the chemistry's non-acid nature. Dan Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 18 Nov 2004 16:13 GMT >... >Also, I'm curious about safety. Are the fumes pretty unhealthy? What >about flamibility? Or using my fingers in the trays? ...
nov1804 from Lloyd Erlick,
There is no need for a darkroom to have "fumes". There are darkroom products sold that smell badly, but even these are unnecessary. It is easy to do all ordinary black and white darkroom procedures free of odor.
It is also easy to do all normal processing with zero chemical-skin contact.
Danger of fire in the darkroom is always an issue in the sense that it is always something to keep in mind in normal life. But normal darkroom materials are no special fire hazard. Whether you're working in the kitchen or the darkroom, safe practice is a must.
I have placed articles about these matters on my website, under the 'technical' heading in the table of contents.
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
PATRICK GAINER - 21 Nov 2004 02:20 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > Since there is no need for Kosher chemicals in the darkroom (who's going to consume them?), if you want sodium chloride, which is useful in the darkroom, you probably want iodine-free salt with no other stuff in it, and Morten's or other brand of canning salt works. Citric acid is used in cooking and canning to prevent discoloring of various fruits and vegetables where the sour taste is not a hindrance.
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