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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004

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Newby: question on paper

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Jed Savage - 16 Nov 2004 04:59 GMT
Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
polyconstrast type III, but I see other types are available (IV for
example).  If the paper is variable contrast why are there different
types?  Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.
Gregory W Blank - 16 Nov 2004 12:47 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  

Yes it is.

>I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
> polyconstrast type III, but I see other types are available (IV for
> example).  If the paper is variable contrast why are there different
> types?

Some different paper manufacturers use different filters
some have varying color because each manufacturer
makes paper that is somewhat different in it sensitivity
to white light.

> Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
> the same as using no filter.

Thats incorrect, grade 2 to is typically the standard default
for sensitometry as opposed to 3.

> If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

If your using standard methods of testing probably not.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Jed Savage - 16 Nov 2004 23:53 GMT
> > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
> > the same as using no filter.
>
> Thats incorrect, grade 2 to is typically the standard default
> for sensitometry as opposed to 3.

So basically a grade 2 filter is just clear glass and would be the
standard starting point on any type of variable contrast paper?  I'm
sorry, and forgive me this is all a little new to me, but this still
confusing.  The previous poster earlier said a #1.5 filter was
standard.  ???   Say I'm using only kodak paper (varying types of
polycontrast) and only kodak contrast filters.  What's standard then?
Gregory W Blank - 17 Nov 2004 01:08 GMT
> > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> standard.  ???   Say I'm using only kodak paper (varying types of
> polycontrast) and only kodak contrast filters.  What's standard then?

Not clear glass-plastic or acetate?... its a coloration that more or less stabilizes
the color temp and is a best case scenario made to allow a variety of
manufacturers papers to achieve grade two with a "normal"
negative in place.

Kodak and Ilford supplied filters optmised
for thier specific papers so the filters for these two brands
may vary to a degree.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 17 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT
> > > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > standard.  ???   Say I'm using only kodak paper (varying types of
> > polycontrast) and only kodak contrast filters.  What's standard then?

The "previous" poster was/is the resident troll.
Ignore him and relayted misinformation.

> Not clear glass-plastic or acetate?... its a coloration that more or less stabilizes
> the color temp and is a best case scenario made to allow a variety of
> manufacturers papers to achieve grade two with a "normal"
> negative in place.

Isn't it (grade 2) a 0 filter or no filter?

> Kodak and Ilford supplied filters optmised
> for thier specific papers so the filters for these two brands
> may vary to a degree.

Personally, I prefer other papers, such as Oriental Seagull,
Brilliant, etc. I've never been a fan of Kodak papers and
lots of other premium papers to choose from.

> LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
>
> "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
> or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 17 Nov 2004 01:52 GMT
> > > > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Personally, I prefer other papers, such as Oriental

Which (forgot to say) comes in multigrade...
Gregory W Blank - 17 Nov 2004 02:06 GMT
> > > > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The "previous" poster was/is the resident troll.
> Ignore him and relayted misinformation.

Initials MS?

> > Not clear glass-plastic or acetate?... its a coloration that more or less stabilizes
> > the color temp and is a best case scenario made to allow a variety of
> > manufacturers papers to achieve grade two with a "normal"
> > negative in place.
>
> Isn't it (grade 2) a 0 filter or no filter?

Could be, never been especially fond of minus filteration.
That includes using yellow in the filter pack.
I do however use PMK developer.


> > Kodak and Ilford supplied filters optmised
> > for thier specific papers so the filters for these two brands
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Brilliant, etc. I've never been a fan of Kodak papers and
> lots of other premium papers to choose from.

I am wondering if Oriental is worth a look.  Loved original
Brilliant paper,...not a big Kodak B&W fan myself.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Tom Phillips - 17 Nov 2004 02:16 GMT
> > > > > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > > > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> I am wondering if Oriental is worth a look.

When it stopped production I was scrambling to find
a replacement. Cachet was supposed to be it's sort
of equal. I'm just glad Oriental is back (and selling
well, I understand...) It's certainly worth a look
if you like a traditional cold paper that tones
blue-black.

> Loved original
> Brilliant paper,...not a big Kodak B&W fan myself.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Uranium Committee - 17 Nov 2004 14:30 GMT
> > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> So basically a grade 2 filter is just clear glass and would be the
> standard starting point on any type of variable contrast paper?

No. The Polycontrast # 1 1/2 is the 'clearest'. The unfiltered paper
resembles grade # 1 1/2. That is below 'normal' contrast, which is
between 2 and 3 for most purposes, not 1 to 2.

> I'm
> sorry, and forgive me this is all a little new to me, but this still
> confusing.  The previous poster earlier said a #1.5 filter was
> standard.  ???  

HUH? No, I didn't. I said the contrast without any filter is about the
same as the #1 1/2 filter.

> Say I'm using only kodak paper (varying types of
> polycontrast) and only kodak contrast filters.  What's standard then?

'Standard'? What's 'standard'?

Kodak Polymax paper is intended for use with T-Max films, and
Polycontrast is intended for conventional Kodak films. That's all
there is to it.

If you work with 35mm, use grade #3 as your 'noemal'.
Ken Hart - 17 Nov 2004 15:33 GMT
> > > Or does this refer to something other than contrast?  Also,
> > > the contrast filters, I've been told a #3 filter on type III paper is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> standard.  ???   Say I'm using only kodak paper (varying types of
> polycontrast) and only kodak contrast filters.  What's standard then?

"Standard" will become what is "standard" for you, once you've had some
experience/practice in exposure and developing. Grades 2 to 3 are the
"midpoint" of the contrast filters (depending on the manufacturer and who
you ask!).
Don't omit the filter. The filters cause some light loss, but are designed
so that each one causes the same light loss (until you go from #3.5 to #4--
then you lose a full stop of light). If you make a print with a #2 filter
and decide that you would like more contrast, you can just change to a #3
and use the same exposure. If you then decide you want still more contrast,
you can change to a #4 and double the exposure.
Two of the most important darkroom rules that I've found over the years: (1)
Be consistent-- try to always get the same results in the darkroom, then you
can "play" more with the camera; (2) Document everything-- when something
works, write it down. When something doesn't work, write that down, too.
Get some waterproof/permanent markers so you can make notes on the back of
your prints (or on the face if they're bad!) (Waterproof/permanent markers
will write on RC paper without smearing).

Ken Hart
Uranium Committee - 16 Nov 2004 13:59 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

Polycontrast IV is a new product. Using no filter is like a 1 1/2 filter, not #3.
Uranium Committee - 16 Nov 2004 18:30 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

There used to be several versions of Polycontrast, including
Polycontrast Rapid, which was a faster version.

duPont made Varigam, High Speed Varigam, and Varilour. Ilford makes
several varieties too.

The unfiltered paper is close to grade 1 1/2 with most VC papers.
Dan Quinn - 16 Nov 2004 23:34 GMT
> I've been using kodak polyconstrast type III, but I see
> other types are available (IV for example).

 IV is the latest version of that Kodak VC, variable
contrast, paper. Of course it has Improved Everything. In the
late 50s I was using that paper, likely the totaly
unimproved I.
 For enlarging purposses that's all Kodak produces these
days; RC/VC papers.                                       Dan
Louie Powell - 17 Nov 2004 00:20 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

Jed -

There are a variety of polycontrast papers on the market, and there are a
number of others that have been formally withdrawn but that may still be
available in dealers.   The basic idea of polycontrast paper is that they
enable the printer to adjust contrast by changing printing filters.

A bit of practical advice - if you are new to printing, don't let
yourself get wound up in discussions of paper grade designations.  In
fact, there are differences in response between different brands of
paper, between variations and types within individual brands, and between
different brands of filters.  The differences are confusing and provide
lots of opportunity for debate in these newsgroups, but beyond that they
are not important.

My first suggestion is to buy a box of paper and a package of filters, go
into your darkroom, and start printing.  Take one negative, and make a
workprint with each filter in the pack.  Process them and dry them, and
then study the results that you get.  You will learn a lot about variable
contrast filtration that way.

You only need one benchmark, and that relates to exposure.  Because
filters absorb some light, they require longer exposure (or a larger
aperture) than printing without a filter.  The best way to calibrate that
filtration is to make a test print.  Set up your enlarge to make whatever
size print is convenient for you, and then use a card to cast a shadow
over most of the print, exposing a narrow band about 1" wide.  Move the
card to make the band 1" wide and repeat the exposure with everything
else unchanged.  Repeat this process until you have finally exposed the
entire sheet.  Process the print, and then pick the band that you think
is dark enough (be sure to evaluate the test print with the lights ON -
you can't judge print quality by safelight).  That then becomes your
standard exposure for all of your test prints.

Start with the #00 filter - that will produce the lowest contrast.  Step
through all your filters, making a print with each one using the same
exposure time and aperture.  When you get to the #3.5 filter, double the
exposure time and continue through the #5 filter.

What these processed, washed and dried prints will teach you is
- contrast increases as the filter number increases
- contrast roughly equates with "grayness"
- modern filters and paper are designed to have the same sensitivity to
light for all filters between #00 and #3, and exactly half that
sensitivity (requiring twice the exposure) for filters #3.5 through #5
- the term "normal" is meaningless - there is no such thing as a
"normal" filter or "normal contrast".  The right contrast is what
produces the print that most pleases you.  Some people prefer higher
contrast, while others prefer lower contrast - just like some people
prefer Chevies and others like Toyotas.

A second suggestion - stick with one paper and one brand of filters until
you are comfortable with the results that you are getting.  Then, if you
want to experiment, try a different paper.  But if possible, don't mix
and match filters.  If you take reasonable care of them, a set of
printing filters will last for years.

Louie
JCPERE - 17 Nov 2004 11:59 GMT
>Louie Powell monophoto@yahoo.com

>modern filters and paper are designed to have the same sensitivity to
>light for all filters between #00 and #3, and exactly half that
>sensitivity (requiring twice the exposure) for filters #3.5 through #5

My Ilford filters run #00 thru #3.5.  Twice the exposure is needed for #4
through #5.
Chuck
John McGraw - 22 Nov 2004 22:10 GMT
"My first suggestion is to buy a box of paper and a package of
filters, go
into your darkroom, and start printing."

Jed, if you take this suggestion literally, & buy a box of paper, I
have an important further suggestion; brake the box down into, say, 10
sheets & put these in a photo print paper envelope, or buy a paper
safe (~U$ 20) for immediate use. Always remove a sheet or a few you
need at a time, & immediately replace the lid to the box. You have no
idea how easy it is to expose a box of paper to white light, including
from the enlarger. You (read 'I') get distracted, rushed, frustrated,
tired, lazy, whatever. And, bingo there goes your new & expen$ive box
of paper. Develop the habit of always immediately closing the source
of your paper, unless you are filthy rich :- )
Good luck, John
Jed Savage - 23 Nov 2004 01:59 GMT
Thanks for the advise.  So far I always pull one sheet at a time from
the darkbag and then fold the bag over onto itself so that just in case
the light gets turned all, all I've lost is one paper.
Uranium Committee - 17 Nov 2004 14:33 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

Variable-contrast paper should ALWAYS be used with a filter. To get a
grade 2, use the #2 filter, etc. NO FILTER gives about the same grade
1 1/2 filter.
Jörgen Persson - 01 Dec 2004 16:52 GMT
> Variable-contrast paper should ALWAYS be used with a filter.
> To get a grade 2, use the #2 filter, etc. NO FILTER gives
> about the same grade 1 1/2 filter.

Sorry -- it is not that simple. Many unfiltered VC-papers are
close to ''normal'' paper contrast depending on the light
source.
Uranium Committee - 01 Dec 2004 22:49 GMT
> > Variable-contrast paper should ALWAYS be used with a filter.
> > To get a grade 2, use the #2 filter, etc. NO FILTER gives
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> close to ''normal'' paper contrast depending on the light
> source.

No, this is FALSE. Most VC papers unfiltered offer only about grade 1
1/2, whicch is too low for most properly-developed negatives.

READ MY LIPS:

ALWAYS USE THE FILTERS!
Jed Savage - 02 Dec 2004 04:07 GMT
So, from what I understand so far, if I don't use any filter, then my
contrast is basically going to be dependent upon the spectrum coming
from my bulb.  Which is going to probably produce a lower contrast
print, and might vary from bulb to bulb and also vary depending on the
bulb life.

Another question then:  I've noticed on my printmaker 67 that there are
two spots for filters.  One inbetween the condensers, and one below the
lens.  Is there any reason to use one instead of the other?  I have
both sets of filters, and so far I've only been using the 'below the
lens' filters as it easier to change them out.  I'm just wondering if
I'm missing something by not using the other filters.  ??
Gregory W Blank - 02 Dec 2004 04:24 GMT
> So, from what I understand so far, if I don't use any filter, then my
> contrast is basically going to be dependent upon the spectrum coming
> from my bulb.  Which is going to probably produce a lower contrast
> print, and might vary from bulb to bulb and also vary depending on the
> bulb life.

If your using a Quartz Halogen bulb thats not an issue, the bulbs
blow before they lose intensity. (actually they just go out).

An incandescent bulb however will gradually dim, you can replace them
based on usage (hours used) and that helps give fairly consistant results.
The voltage input and how it might flucuate may have more direct influence
on consistancy, thats why voltage stabilizers are good ideas especially for color.

> Another question then:  I've noticed on my printmaker 67 that there are
> two spots for filters.  One inbetween the condensers, and one below the
> lens.

Use between the condensors.

> Is there any reason to use one instead of the other?  

Sharper prints. Though the filters should be clean and dust & scratch free.
Under the lens will give you less issues with regard to dust and scratches,
but will degrade the sharpness somewhat.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

John - 02 Dec 2004 06:15 GMT
>The voltage input and how it might flucuate may have more direct influence
>on consistancy, thats why voltage stabilizers are good ideas especially for color

    Also they greatly extend bulb life by lowering the voltage.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
John - 02 Dec 2004 06:15 GMT
>So, from what I understand so far, if I don't use any filter, then my
>contrast is basically going to be dependent upon the spectrum coming
>from my bulb.  Which is going to probably produce a lower contrast
>print, and might vary from bulb to bulb and also vary depending on the
>bulb life.

    And also your line voltage. Bulb output color is generally OK
until it gets really old and near failure.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Jörgen Persson - 02 Dec 2004 05:01 GMT
> No, this is FALSE. Most VC papers unfiltered offer only about
> grade 1 1/2, whicch is too low for most properly-developed
> negatives.

We can not prove anything arguing but it is easy to test. I
leave that as an assignment for the interested reader.
Gregory W Blank - 02 Dec 2004 05:10 GMT
> We can not prove anything arguing but it is easy to test. I
> leave that as an assignment for the interested reader.

I doubt there are any when it comes to that "other"
parties commentary, more like a slew of the annoyed.

Aside from that everyone in thier
"sane" mind knows grade 2 is standard for all
black and white printing papers,....its the default grade
whether self "employeed physists believe so or not.

I have hundred of emulsion tests to prove it and the
sensitometric plots to boot, and I am sure many others
agree.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 02 Dec 2004 17:42 GMT
> > We can not prove anything arguing but it is easy to test. I
> > leave that as an assignment for the interested reader.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Uranium Committee - 17 Nov 2004 22:49 GMT
> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the same as using no filter.  If I change my variable-contrast paper
> to type  IV will #3 filter still be the same as no filter?  Thanks.

Why do you think you have to put your question on paper? We don't
always need a hard copy.
Jed Savage - 18 Nov 2004 22:40 GMT
> > Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> > enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Why do you think you have to put your question on paper? We don't
> always need a hard copy.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking.  Rephrase please.  thanks.
Tom Phillips - 19 Nov 2004 02:31 GMT
> > > Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> > > enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking.  Rephrase please.  thanks.

UC is a troll, as with Micheal Scarpitti. Ignore them.
Gregory W Blank - 19 Nov 2004 02:58 GMT
> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking.  Rephrase please.  thanks.

Don't ask, and if you do follow any  of the misguided advice given
you may need many years to untangle bad habits.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Uranium Committee - 19 Nov 2004 14:34 GMT
> > > Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast (using
> > > enlarger filters) correct?  I'm confused a bit:  I've been using kodak
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking.  Rephrase please.  thanks.

You said "Question on paper", right?
Jed Savage - 19 Nov 2004 14:48 GMT
LOL  ok...  I got it.  Har har  :)
Jörgen Persson - 01 Dec 2004 12:37 GMT
Sorry about being late -- I am not a frequent visitor.

> Polycontrast paper is the paper that gives variable contrast
> (using enlarger filters) correct?

Correct!

> I'm confused a bit

...and you are not the only one. Many newbies seem to think of
variable paper contrast as a confusing silver bullit.

There is a lot of fuss about contrast. Sure -- knowing about
contrast is important but most negatives are ''normal''; ie you
can stick with ''normal'' paper contrast and, more or less,
forget about variable paper contrast.

Although they do not exclude each other I think it is easier to
learn about dodging and burning, and the reward is greater, than
to learn about contrast,

If there is a contrast issue for newbies it is often related to
over developed negatives.

I know I didn't answer you question but I wrote this with best
intentions.

Sincerely,
Jörgen

--
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
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