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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Determing the Correct Development Time

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rgans - 15 Nov 2004 00:35 GMT
(I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
time...this is another question):

If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the
other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at
Zone I (correct?).

If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital
spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can
meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place
the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What?

THANKS!!!

RON
_________________________________________________________________
B&W Landscape and Still Photography:  http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com
Frank Pittel - 15 Nov 2004 00:55 GMT
I always determined film speed by making zone I exposures at different film
speeds and a densitometer. I then determined development time by exposing at
zone VIII at the proper film speed and after determining a "standard print time"
The amount of print time required to get maximum black through a developed but
unexposed negative, printing for that time and determining which development time
gave me a proper "zone VIII" print.

: (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
: time...this is another question):

: If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the
: other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at
: Zone I (correct?).

: If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital
: spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can
: meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place
: the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What?

: THANKS!!!

: RON
: _________________________________________________________________
: B&W Landscape and Still Photography:  http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com

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Gregory W Blank - 15 Nov 2004 13:45 GMT
> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
> time...this is another question):
>
> If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the
> other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at
> Zone I (correct?).

Correct if your meter is accurate and your shutter is accurate.

> If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital
> spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can
> meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place
> the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What?

Rather difficult and the accuracy is questionable, however in theory and general
practice you can do it by placing the two negatives on a light table of even
brillance or by placing the negatives over the spot meter and shining the enlarger
light through the negative. A densitometer/or analyzer is the best way to establish
accurate results. You could also print both negatives using the same exact enlarger
exposure, paper development time and visually determine the difference. You would
have to determine first black on the photo paper before hand
because the Z1 neg is going to print all black.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
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Richard Knoppow - 15 Nov 2004 14:38 GMT
> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
> time...this is another question):
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> _________________________________________________________________
> B&W Landscape and Still Photography:  http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com

    I am assuming you were photographing a gray card or something
similar.
Each zone in the zone system is one stop apart. The difference
between 1 second and 1/15th is about 4 stops (1/16th to be exact) so
the two should be 4 zones apart. This assumes no reciprocity effect.
The zones of the zone system are related to printing paper density,
running from paper white to paper maximum black. The density range of
a reflection print is somewhere around log 1.5 to log 2.0. This bears
no direct relationship to the densities on the negative because
nothing is said about the contrast grade of the paper. The paper
contrast relates the contrast, or density range, of the negative to
the density range of the paper. The higher the paper contrast the
shorter the density range on the negative that is needed to produce
the full range of densities on the paper.
  Development controls negative contrast. In this way negagives vary
from prints. Prints are nearly always developed to the maximum
contrast the material is capable of. Film for pictorial puposes is
developed to a much lower contrast than the maximum. The idea is to
match the contrast of the negative to the contrast of the paper. The
Zone System was designed to help photographers make negatives which
would print with good tonal rendition. The idea is to fit the scene
contrast onto the film so that the desired range of tones will print
on _normal_ grade paper. Since varying development also varies the
minimum and maximum densities of the film it is desirable to expose
the film so that it is neither too low in density for the shadows to
have good detail or so great in density that it requires long printing
exposure times.
  I think one reason for choosing to vary the negative contrast
rather than matching by paper grade was that the curve shapes of the
different paper grades did not always match so the tone rendition was
not always the same for a lower contrast negative printed on higher
contrast paper and a higher contrast negative printed on lower
contrast paper even though both negatives were exposed correctly. Some
graded papers are better than others in this respect, but there are
few graded papers on the market today. For variable contrast paper
there may still be an advantage to controlling negative contrast
because some VC papers do not vary highlight contrast much from grade
to grade.
  I am rather of the opinion that more conventional senstometric
methods may be less confusing than the zone system but they are really
just different approaches to the same end: getting consistent and
predictable tone rendition on prints.
  Most B&W negative materials will produce good tonal rendition over
a wide range of increased exposure once a certain minimum exposure is
given. The main advantage of keeping exposure to a minimum consistent
with good shadow detail is that thinner negatives tend to be less
grainy and sharper than denser ones. This makes much more difference
for small negatives than for large format ones.
  Now, after all this exposition I am still not sure I am even
addressing your question, my excuse being I have been awake too many
hours.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
LR Kalajainen - 15 Nov 2004 22:59 GMT
To Ron,

1. Run a test roll, (or several sheets) of a smooth blank surface, e.g.
a wall.  Meter for Zone V, and then stop down four stops (less exposure)
for Zone I.  Make five or six exposures, bracketing 1/2 stop each time
(e.g. 3 half-stops above and 3 below the Zone I reading).  Leave a frame
or two unexposed.  Keep the shutter speed the same if possible and vary
the f/stop to bracket.  Record your exposures.  Develop at some time
that's going to be "in the ballpark," i.e. the manufacturer's suggested
time.

2.  Since development time does not affect the lower zones as much as
the higher ones, as long as you're not a mile off, you're OK.  Then, on
an evenly illuminated section of a lightbox (mask a spot the size of
your neg with a card or tape), take a piece of the developed film from
an unexposed frame.  Place this on the masked area of the lightbox, lay
on top of it a .10 Wratten neutral density filter.  Then put your
digital spot meter on the film/filter sandwich and make a reading.  This
is your Film base/fog plus .1 density reading.  Write it on the piece of
blank film.

3.  Next,  place each exposed negative in turn over the masked area of
the lightbox and meter it with your spot meter.  Record the reading for
each.  When you find  the one that is the same as your Fbf plus .1
reading above,  note the f/stop you recorded for that exposure.  This
will tell you your true film speed for that film and that camera shutter.

4.  Determine minimum exposure time (under the enlarger) for maximum
black.  Three-second increment exposures on a test strip with a piece of
the unexposed clear film in your carrier.  Let's say you get a maximum
black in 8 seconds at f.11 with your enlarger at the height you'd use
for making contacts.  Mark the enlarger column so you'll know where the
head was positioned.

4.  Now expose another roll (several sheets) at that film speed, of the
same wall, but this time, opening up three stops to place the exposure
on Zone VIII.  Expose all frames at the same exposure.  If roll film,
cut off 1/3 of the roll (or one of the sheets) in the dark, and develop
it for the manufacturer's suggested time.  When finished, make a print
of one of the frames at the exposure time for maximum black that you
previously determined.  If there is more than a very slight tone and
texture to the print, you've overdeveloped.  If there is no tone or
texture at all, you've underdeveloped.  Repeat using another 1/3 of your
test roll, this time, developing for 20% less or 20% more, whichever is
appropriate.  Make another print at the exposure time for maximum
black.  You should be right on or very close.  If necessary repeat with
the last 1/3 roll (or third sheet) and tweak the development time again
in whichever direction is appropriate.  By now, you'll have your Zone
VIII exposure time for that film, paper, developer combination.

This was essentially Fred Picker's film speed/development time testing
method.  It's always worked well for me.  The difference is he
recommended a densitometer, and I couldn't afford one, so I improvised
with my spot meter and a Wratten filter, and it worked well.

Larry  

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>Los Angeles, CA, USA
>dickburk@ix.netcom.com
rgans - 15 Nov 2004 23:51 GMT
Thanks. That helps me tremendously!!!
> To Ron,
>
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
>>Los Angeles, CA, USA
>>dickburk@ix.netcom.com
rgans - 15 Nov 2004 23:48 GMT
I don't think you actually answered my question, but, as usual, I totally
enjoyed reading your reply and, as usual, learned a lot from it...so
THANKS!!!<G>.
>> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
>> time...this is another question):
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Uranium Committee - 15 Nov 2004 21:49 GMT
> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
> time...this is another question):
>
> If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the
> other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at
> Zone I (correct?).

What are you talking about?

> If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital
> spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> _________________________________________________________________
> B&W Landscape and Still Photography:  http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com
jjs - 15 Nov 2004 21:52 GMT
>> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
>> time...this is another question):
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What are you talking about?

Be nice. He's not only got Zonsystitis, he's got Photoshop!
Frank Pittel - 16 Nov 2004 02:07 GMT
: >> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev.
: >> time...this is another question):
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: >
: > What are you talking about?

: Be nice. He's not only got Zonsystitis, he's got Photoshop!

Ignore!!

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
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