Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
Determing the Correct Development Time
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rgans - 15 Nov 2004 00:35 GMT (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. time...this is another question):
If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at Zone I (correct?).
If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What?
THANKS!!!
RON _________________________________________________________________ B&W Landscape and Still Photography: http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com
Frank Pittel - 15 Nov 2004 00:55 GMT I always determined film speed by making zone I exposures at different film speeds and a densitometer. I then determined development time by exposing at zone VIII at the proper film speed and after determining a "standard print time" The amount of print time required to get maximum black through a developed but unexposed negative, printing for that time and determining which development time gave me a proper "zone VIII" print.
: (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. : time...this is another question):
: If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the : other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at : Zone I (correct?).
: If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital : spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can : meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place : the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What?
: THANKS!!!
: RON : _________________________________________________________________ : B&W Landscape and Still Photography: http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com
 Signature Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
Gregory W Blank - 15 Nov 2004 13:45 GMT > (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. > time...this is another question): > > If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the > other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at > Zone I (correct?). Correct if your meter is accurate and your shutter is accurate.
> If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital > spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can > meter the negs for a comparison? If this is possible, what should I place > the negs over to meter? White paper? A gray card? What? Rather difficult and the accuracy is questionable, however in theory and general practice you can do it by placing the two negatives on a light table of even brillance or by placing the negatives over the spot meter and shining the enlarger light through the negative. A densitometer/or analyzer is the best way to establish accurate results. You could also print both negatives using the same exact enlarger exposure, paper development time and visually determine the difference. You would have to determine first black on the photo paper before hand because the Z1 neg is going to print all black.
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Richard Knoppow - 15 Nov 2004 14:38 GMT > (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. > time...this is another question): [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > _________________________________________________________________ > B&W Landscape and Still Photography: http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com I am assuming you were photographing a gray card or something similar. Each zone in the zone system is one stop apart. The difference between 1 second and 1/15th is about 4 stops (1/16th to be exact) so the two should be 4 zones apart. This assumes no reciprocity effect. The zones of the zone system are related to printing paper density, running from paper white to paper maximum black. The density range of a reflection print is somewhere around log 1.5 to log 2.0. This bears no direct relationship to the densities on the negative because nothing is said about the contrast grade of the paper. The paper contrast relates the contrast, or density range, of the negative to the density range of the paper. The higher the paper contrast the shorter the density range on the negative that is needed to produce the full range of densities on the paper. Development controls negative contrast. In this way negagives vary from prints. Prints are nearly always developed to the maximum contrast the material is capable of. Film for pictorial puposes is developed to a much lower contrast than the maximum. The idea is to match the contrast of the negative to the contrast of the paper. The Zone System was designed to help photographers make negatives which would print with good tonal rendition. The idea is to fit the scene contrast onto the film so that the desired range of tones will print on _normal_ grade paper. Since varying development also varies the minimum and maximum densities of the film it is desirable to expose the film so that it is neither too low in density for the shadows to have good detail or so great in density that it requires long printing exposure times. I think one reason for choosing to vary the negative contrast rather than matching by paper grade was that the curve shapes of the different paper grades did not always match so the tone rendition was not always the same for a lower contrast negative printed on higher contrast paper and a higher contrast negative printed on lower contrast paper even though both negatives were exposed correctly. Some graded papers are better than others in this respect, but there are few graded papers on the market today. For variable contrast paper there may still be an advantage to controlling negative contrast because some VC papers do not vary highlight contrast much from grade to grade. I am rather of the opinion that more conventional senstometric methods may be less confusing than the zone system but they are really just different approaches to the same end: getting consistent and predictable tone rendition on prints. Most B&W negative materials will produce good tonal rendition over a wide range of increased exposure once a certain minimum exposure is given. The main advantage of keeping exposure to a minimum consistent with good shadow detail is that thinner negatives tend to be less grainy and sharper than denser ones. This makes much more difference for small negatives than for large format ones. Now, after all this exposition I am still not sure I am even addressing your question, my excuse being I have been awake too many hours.
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
LR Kalajainen - 15 Nov 2004 22:59 GMT To Ron,
1. Run a test roll, (or several sheets) of a smooth blank surface, e.g. a wall. Meter for Zone V, and then stop down four stops (less exposure) for Zone I. Make five or six exposures, bracketing 1/2 stop each time (e.g. 3 half-stops above and 3 below the Zone I reading). Leave a frame or two unexposed. Keep the shutter speed the same if possible and vary the f/stop to bracket. Record your exposures. Develop at some time that's going to be "in the ballpark," i.e. the manufacturer's suggested time.
2. Since development time does not affect the lower zones as much as the higher ones, as long as you're not a mile off, you're OK. Then, on an evenly illuminated section of a lightbox (mask a spot the size of your neg with a card or tape), take a piece of the developed film from an unexposed frame. Place this on the masked area of the lightbox, lay on top of it a .10 Wratten neutral density filter. Then put your digital spot meter on the film/filter sandwich and make a reading. This is your Film base/fog plus .1 density reading. Write it on the piece of blank film.
3. Next, place each exposed negative in turn over the masked area of the lightbox and meter it with your spot meter. Record the reading for each. When you find the one that is the same as your Fbf plus .1 reading above, note the f/stop you recorded for that exposure. This will tell you your true film speed for that film and that camera shutter.
4. Determine minimum exposure time (under the enlarger) for maximum black. Three-second increment exposures on a test strip with a piece of the unexposed clear film in your carrier. Let's say you get a maximum black in 8 seconds at f.11 with your enlarger at the height you'd use for making contacts. Mark the enlarger column so you'll know where the head was positioned.
4. Now expose another roll (several sheets) at that film speed, of the same wall, but this time, opening up three stops to place the exposure on Zone VIII. Expose all frames at the same exposure. If roll film, cut off 1/3 of the roll (or one of the sheets) in the dark, and develop it for the manufacturer's suggested time. When finished, make a print of one of the frames at the exposure time for maximum black that you previously determined. If there is more than a very slight tone and texture to the print, you've overdeveloped. If there is no tone or texture at all, you've underdeveloped. Repeat using another 1/3 of your test roll, this time, developing for 20% less or 20% more, whichever is appropriate. Make another print at the exposure time for maximum black. You should be right on or very close. If necessary repeat with the last 1/3 roll (or third sheet) and tweak the development time again in whichever direction is appropriate. By now, you'll have your Zone VIII exposure time for that film, paper, developer combination.
This was essentially Fred Picker's film speed/development time testing method. It's always worked well for me. The difference is he recommended a densitometer, and I couldn't afford one, so I improvised with my spot meter and a Wratten filter, and it worked well.
Larry
> > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >Los Angeles, CA, USA >dickburk@ix.netcom.com rgans - 15 Nov 2004 23:51 GMT Thanks. That helps me tremendously!!!
> To Ron, > [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] >>Los Angeles, CA, USA >>dickburk@ix.netcom.com rgans - 15 Nov 2004 23:48 GMT I don't think you actually answered my question, but, as usual, I totally enjoyed reading your reply and, as usual, learned a lot from it...so THANKS!!!<G>.
>> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. >> time...this is another question): [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickburk@ix.netcom.com Uranium Committee - 15 Nov 2004 21:49 GMT > (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. > time...this is another question): > > If I have two negs, one shot at 1 sec at f/22 (the metered speed) and the > other at 1/15 at f/22, the first one should be at Zone V and the second at > Zone I (correct?). What are you talking about?
> If so, after development, if I meter a gray card (using the Pentax Digital > spotmeter) and get, say, a reading of 5 and one dot. Is there a way I can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > _________________________________________________________________ > B&W Landscape and Still Photography: http://www.ronaldgansphotography.com jjs - 15 Nov 2004 21:52 GMT >> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. >> time...this is another question): [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What are you talking about? Be nice. He's not only got Zonsystitis, he's got Photoshop!
Frank Pittel - 16 Nov 2004 02:07 GMT : >> (I asked a question about using Photoshop to determine the correct dev. : >> time...this is another question): [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > : > What are you talking about?
: Be nice. He's not only got Zonsystitis, he's got Photoshop! Ignore!!
 Signature Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
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