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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Developer to give low FB + F

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BLKnWHTwisner - 13 Nov 2004 02:14 GMT
I have been testing HP5+ in Rodinal and am getting a Film Base + Fog of .16.

This is quite a bit above the recommended .10 above FB+F.  Does anyone use this
film with a different developer and get a lower density??  If you do, please
let me know which developer and the density you normally obtain.

I would like to lower this figure, but don't want to be buying two dozen
different developers to try and find one.

Thanks in advance for you input and/or experience.

Lauvone
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Nov 2004 02:50 GMT
> I have been testing HP5+ in Rodinal and am getting a Film Base + Fog of .16.

So what? I do not know about HP5+ but it is not unusual to get a Dmin of
about 0.3 for 35mm films because the base has a grey dye in it to prevent
light piping. Fb+F, while it must be known, is not of any significance
unless it is high compared with product specifications, and indicative of
improper storage.

> This is quite a bit above the recommended .10 above FB+F.

What are you talking about?

Ansel Adams used to recommend a NET density of about 0.1 above Fb+F for
film exposed to Zone I. (I do not find this good for my work, and expose
so that NET density of film exposed to Zone V is in the range of 0.85 to
0.9, which results in a NET density in the range of 0.25 to 0.3 (for TMax
type films).

> Does anyone use this
> film with a different developer and get a lower density??  If you do, please
> let me know which developer and the density you normally obtain.
>
> I would like to lower this figure,

Why? What difference could it possibly make?

> but don't want to be buying two dozen
> different developers to try and find one.
>
> Thanks in advance for you input and/or experience.
>
> Lauvone

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Drane Z. Drizzard - 13 Nov 2004 04:10 GMT
> I have been testing HP5+ in Rodinal and am getting a Film Base + Fog of .16.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lauvone

What dilution time and temperature are you currently using.

Is the film sheet film or roll film?
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Richard Knoppow - 13 Nov 2004 11:01 GMT
>I have been testing HP5+ in Rodinal and am getting a Film
>Base + Fog of .16.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Lauvone

  I think you are confusing two things. Log 0.1 above base
+ fog is the standard speed point for the ISO speed
measuring system, the actual B+F level is of no
significance. Most 35mm negative films have a pigment in the
base for anti-halation and anti-light-piping. This pigment
has a rather high density, typically around Log 0.3. This
has no significance other than it about doubles the
necessary exposure time when printing.
  Whether log 0.1 is a good density to place minimum shadow
density depends somewhat on the shape of the film's toe. The
idea is to get the shadows which are to have some detail up
on the toe far enough so that the contrast is adequate. Loyd
A. Jones, of Kodak Research Laboratories, determined
experimentally that this should be where the toe contrast is
1/3rd the straight line contrast. Less exposure results in a
loss of shadow detail, greater exposure makes little
difference in tonal rendition.
 As far as fog goes: if film is old and known to be foggy
the exposure should be increased. When this is done the
overall density is increased and the lack of shadow detail
from the fog is compensated for. Such negatives print fine
but may require longer printing exposures.
 Anti-foggants will reduce the fog density but also tend to
destroy some of the latent image effectively loweing the
film speed, exactly what the fog does. So, the only
advantage may be somewhat shorter printing times.
 Don't worry too much about where the minimum exposure is
in terms of densities. The main thing is for it to be far
enough up the film curve to yield good detail. In Jones'
research he found that tonal rendition remained the same
over a rather long range of exposures once the minimum for
good shadow detail had been reached.
  Minimum exposure is still important, especially for 35mm
film, because the grain tends to increase with density and
sharpness decrease. So, the ideal is to find the minimum
exposure which will print with good shadow detail. For
larger formats, where absolute minimum grain and absolutely
maximum resolution are not so important, its usually safe to
overexpose a bit to insure good tonal rendition.
  Developers are much the same in fog level. The is some
reduction of fog in developers with a lot of restrainer in
them. Used developer generally has less fog than fresh
developer because of the accumulated bromide and iodide, but
the effect on the latent image of the restrainers also
lowers the effective film speed.
  Rodinal is actually a fairly low fog developer but it
also tends to reduce effective film speed a little, not
much, perhaps half a stop.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

BLKnWHTwisner - 13 Nov 2004 14:20 GMT
Thanks for your replys.  You are right Richard, I was combining thoughts there
on the densities.

I am using the HP5+ in 4x5 sheet, and developing in Rodinal 1:50 at 70 degrees
for 10 minutes.  I did a film speed test and am rating the film at 200.  I
could probably go up to 250, or 320, but I had rather have the extra detail in
the shadow areas.

I was hoping to lower the FB+F to shorten the printing times.  Richard says
that it won't affect the final print, I won't worry about it.  

Now to forge ahead to do the developing tests for the highlights.  Ahhh, so
much to do, so little time.

Thanks again everyone.

Lauvone
Tom Phillips - 13 Nov 2004 20:51 GMT
> Thanks for your replys.  You are right Richard, I was combining thoughts there
> on the densities.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Lauvone

Just keep in mind that 0.10 above fb is the speed point
and should be used for determining the effective speed
of your film. I.e., whatever ISO exposure gives 0.10
density above fb+f is your nominal speed. This should
ensure adequate exposure _Shadow_ detail (i.e., zone III)
should probably be in the 0.3 ranage above fb+f. If your
zone III placements are't giveing good shadow detail simply
adjust your exposure (give another 1/3 stop more exposure
or whatever is required.)
Richard Knoppow - 14 Nov 2004 01:34 GMT
> Thanks for your replys.  You are right Richard, I was
> combining thoughts there
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Lauvone

  The base of sheet film has no density for practical
purposes. I just looked at a bunch of sensitometric curves
for sheet films. The minimum density of all is around log
1.5. This varies with development and will be higher for
some films than others. Also old film will be higher. So I
think your measured minimum density (1.6 was it) is
perfectly normal.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Uranium Committee - 13 Nov 2004 19:12 GMT
> I have been testing HP5+ in Rodinal and am getting a Film Base + Fog of .16.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lauvone

Rodinal on HP5? WHY?

In any event, Rodinal is a low-speed developer, not at all suited for
fast films. You lose about 2/3 stop in shadow speed. You must be using
too high a concentration of this stuff, or too high a temperature, or
excessive time.
Dan Quinn - 13 Nov 2004 22:38 GMT
> ...film with a different developer and get a lower density?

 I think that possible with a less active developer
although .16 fb+f with that sheet film I'd think quite good.
If you compound any of your own developers try D-23, Beutler
or, FX-1. The last two are similar to Rodinal and like it
can have additions of sulfite made to suit one's taste.  Dan
Richard Knoppow - 14 Nov 2004 01:36 GMT
>> Thanks for your replys.  You are right Richard, I was
>> combining thoughts there
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> think your measured minimum density (1.6 was it) is
> perfectly normal.

  Of course I mean log 0.15 and log 0.16  What's a dot
between friends.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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