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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Removing water marks from negatives

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Alan - 10 Nov 2004 09:12 GMT
Hello,

I processed a roll of Ilford film the other night (first attempt at this!).
The developing went fine, and before hanging the negatives to dry I put some
rinse aid through the tank.
However, I have water marks on the negs now they are dry, which show up on
my scans.

So, what is the best method to remove these, and what should I have done
differently to prevent these forming in the first place?

Many thanks,

Alan.

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Malcolm Stewart - 10 Nov 2004 09:19 GMT
> Hello,
> However, I have water marks on the negs now they are dry, which show up on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Many thanks,
> Alan.

Depends on how hard your water supply is, but here where my tap water supply
is hard, I always use de-ionised water plus a very small amount of wetting
agent for the final rinse.  (If I'm doing E6 then I add formalin to the
final rinse as well, followed by heat drying - it helps prevent fungal
problems.)

Signature

M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Ian Pollard - 10 Nov 2004 09:36 GMT
>Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
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Alan
    The best way to get rid of watermarks is to gently polish the
non-emulsion (glossy) side of the film with a very clean, (no dust
particles), dry handkerchief. This will get rid of watermarks on the
glossy side but I would be very careful about performing the same
procedure on the emulsion (dull) side of the film.
When you process your next film, wash as usual then when you are
finished washing, add a generous few drops of wetting agent, not washing
up liquid! to the tank. Plunge the spiral up and down in the solution,
remove the film from the spiral and gently squeegee it between your
first and second fingers after ensuring that you have no hard skin on
your fingers. I do this every time and have processed hundreds of films
without problems. Hope this helps.

Ian

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Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK
                m0flc@yahoo.co.uk

Alan - 10 Nov 2004 10:48 GMT
> >Hello,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
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[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Ian

Thanks Ian.

Would it be wortwhile to re-wash the film I have already processed and then
run through the squeegee process as instructed?

The rinse aid used was "RA50" from Photospeed. I quote:

" Fotospeed RA50 is a highly concentrated liquid designed to greatly reduce
surface tension to allow the easy dispersion of water from the surface of
photographic materials without damaging the emulsion. Used in the final
rinse, it noticeably promotes streak free drying of film and shortens drying
times. "

I diluted it 1/200 as recommended for my final wash. Maybe I should have
washed it for longer??

Alan.

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Ian Pollard - 10 Nov 2004 11:50 GMT
>Thanks Ian.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
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Alan
    I have rewashed film occasionally but never had good results as
the emulsion has softened and distorted. I would carefully polish it if
I were you. If the marks are on the glossy side of the film, I would
tend to use my breath to moisten them prior to a light polish. If you
use any fluid on the emulsion side, it will soften and spoil.
I ignore the dilution instructions on the wetting agent and simply put
enough in the tank to generate a mild buubly appearance on the water
then plunge it up and down to ensure dispersion.
I have been asked by a friend to rescue a marked film and have had to
scan it, clean it in Photoshop and print it digitally because the marks
were heavy and on the emulsion.
    If the film is going to be a total loss then you could try
rewashing it for 20 minutes in cold water then adding a few drops as
specified earlier but I wouldn't like to guarantee the result!!

Ian

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Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK
                m0flc@yahoo.co.uk

Alan - 10 Nov 2004 13:23 GMT
> >Thanks Ian.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
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[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Ian

Ian,

I'll try this on a strip. It doesn't matter too much if I loose any, as this
was an un-important first run at developing. Better to find these problems
now and deal with them rather than have them on something important later.

I'm pretty sure the water marks are on both sides of the negs, but will try
the polishing trick on the glossy side.

Alan.

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Jan T - 13 Nov 2004 15:01 GMT
| >Thanks Ian.
| >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
| >
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[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
|
| Ian

Alan,

if you can find Tetenal Film Cleaner, I'd recommend it. I need it on say 2%
of my negs, and it has never let me down. If you apply it with a very soft,
dustfree cotton cloth, you can even whipe the emulsion side. Don't rub, just
one stroke with moistened cloth. This film cleaner also makes your negatives
antistatic.

For your future films I second the advice of using demineralized water and a
few drops of wetting agent.

Jan
Alan - 11 Nov 2004 13:50 GMT
> >Hello,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
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[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Ian

Ian,

I have tried this - and it worked great. The water marks were only on the
glossy side, not both as I originally thought.
Now I have to get rid of the dust on the negs due to the handkerchief - it
wasn't as dust-free as I thought.

Alan.

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Ian Pollard - 11 Nov 2004 17:31 GMT
>Ian,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Alan.

Alan
    The best way to get rid of dust on negatives is to use an air
spray. Quick blast across the negative rather than at it!!

Ian

Signature

Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK
                m0flc@yahoo.co.uk

Alan - 12 Nov 2004 14:34 GMT
> >Ian,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Ian

Will do,
Thanks.

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Mike King - 10 Nov 2004 15:23 GMT
You didn't say what format, I have a lot more problem with watermarks in
35mm.  It's the water collected in the sprocket holes.  (Another reason I
love 120 for black and white.)  As a preventative I use distilled water with
a very small amount of Photoflo (or locally available photo-grade rinse
agent).  One poster, (Lloyd?) has suggested spraying film with distilled
water after hanging and another workable suggestion was to hang 35mm
horizontally so that the runoff has less travel distance before it gets out
of the image area (will have to try this if I need to shoot 35mm, and I'm
currently being tempted to buy an old Nikon F, load up some bulk Tri-X and
do the p-j thing just for fun).

Since these are hard water deposits I usually have luck with one of the
following remedies:

Dry polishing--be gentle!

Cleaning--base side only--with straight Photoflo.  For permanence reprocess
after scanning.

Cleaning--base side only--with stop bath.  Most hard water scum is acid
soluble.For permanence reprocess after scanning.

Reprocessing in stop bath, fixer, wash aid and wash, final rinse in
distilled water.  1-2 drops of Photoflo per roll.

This may be one of those cases where processing in a traditional acid
environment--stop bath and hardening traditional fixer is superior to an
alkaline set of chemicals since calcium carbonate and its ilk are more
soluble in acid solutions and less likely to precipitate--comments from the
chemists in the house?

Signature

darkroommike

----------

> Hello,
>
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>
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Alan - 11 Nov 2004 13:52 GMT
> You didn't say what format, I have a lot more problem with watermarks in
> 35mm.  It's the water collected in the sprocket holes.  (Another reason I
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
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Mike,

Yes, it's 35mm. Thanks for the tips.

Alan.

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David Kazdan - 11 Nov 2004 15:37 GMT
I have had good luck leaving film on the reel for five or ten minutes after the
Photo-Flo rinse.  That lets most of the water drain horizontally.  I then dry
the bottom of the reel before removing the film.

    David

> water after hanging and another workable suggestion was to hang 35mm
> horizontally so that the runoff has less travel distance before it gets out
> of the image area (will have to try this if I need to shoot 35mm, and I'm
Philippe Lauwers - 10 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
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Don't use too much wetting-agent for your final rinse. If the stains appear
greasy (which is easy to find out if you try polishing the shiny side
assuming you are talking 35 mm), a short re-rinse should be sufficient to
remove the wetting-agent residue from both sides of the film. Personally the
only stains I've had on the emulsion side so far originiated in the use of
way too much agepon. Just one drop should be sufficient for a half-liter
tank.
I've seen people using undissolved stopping-bath for removing stains that
come form using (hard) tap-water. It works, but I can't help wondering why
you should bother about rinsing your negs if you clean them this way
afterwards.

Apart from using only a small amount of wetting-agent, I shake of most of
the water when the negatives are still in the reel. After hanging the film
to dry, I swipe off the exessive water using a moist piece of leather cloth
that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my
darkroom for a dictionnary !!!).

Just my experience ...

Philippe
Robert Vervoordt - 10 Nov 2004 20:07 GMT
>Apart from using only a small amount of wetting-agent, I shake of most of
>the water when the negatives are still in the reel. After hanging the film
>to dry, I swipe off the exessive water using a moist piece of leather cloth
>that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my
>darkroom for a dictionnary !!!).

Chamois.

>Just my experience ...
>
>Philippe

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Philippe Lauwers - 11 Nov 2004 02:13 GMT
> >a moist piece of leather cloth
> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

You must be the kindest dictionnary I've encountered so far. Thx
Robert Vervoordt - 11 Nov 2004 07:46 GMT
>> >a moist piece of leather cloth
>> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>You must be the kindest dictionnary I've encountered so far. Thx

And you the kindest user.  You make me glad I could help.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Philippe Lauwers - 11 Nov 2004 14:04 GMT
> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth
> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Nice, are we going to play this game ?

Napoleon: This is an honor for me.
Boris: No, it's a greater honor for me.
Napoleon: No, a greater honor for me.
Boris: No, it's a greater honor for me.
Napoleon: No, a greater honor for ME.
Boris: Well, perhaps you're right. Perhaps it IS a greater honor for you.

(WA's Love and Death)
Robert Vervoordt - 11 Nov 2004 14:59 GMT
>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth
>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>(WA's Love and Death)

Well, since it's not loaded with the dread passions of the recent
flames, perhaps its uselessness will be seen more quickly.

Then again, it might seem so much a welcome relief, that a few more
exchanges might be appreciated.

"After you, my dear brother" said Gaston. ...

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Richard Knoppow - 13 Nov 2004 11:30 GMT
>>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth
>>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

 Of course there is also the Soviet Union version of this
question: How to remove Marx from negatives.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Robert Vervoordt - 13 Nov 2004 15:18 GMT
>>>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth
>>>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>  Of course there is also the Soviet Union version of this
>question: How to remove Marx from negatives.

Now that's droll

Droll?

Droll wit d' marks dat I wanna purge.

Oh, lets's Trotsky out d Chamoise.

Never! Foreign Capitalist Elitist French ...

Well, we're not flaming each other, but it doesn't seem very useful.

Too bad ordinary discourse has descended to the nasty level achieved
around here recently.  I see connections to our (US) recent national
elections.  People have grown increasingly picky, territorial,
intolerant and downright mean.

And that's just the Christians.

Ah, for a good "Divided Developer with Glycin" thread morphing into
"C41 in modified Diafine for artistic expression". There aren't enough
of us of that ilk to support more than a weeks postings and then not
without blather and repetition.

Still, I like it the way it has become quieter around here.

Thank you John, Richard, Lloyd, Peter, Dan, Tom, Dick and Harry.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Tom Phillips - 13 Nov 2004 20:51 GMT
> >>>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth
> >>>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Now that's droll

We should see more of Richard's sense of humor :-) ...

> Droll?
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Still, I like it the way it has become quieter around here.

Quick - someone start up a zone system thread!

> Thank you John, Richard, Lloyd, Peter, Dan, Tom, Dick and Harry.
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Ah, careful with that tom dick and harry stuff ;)
Francis A. Miniter - 10 Nov 2004 19:35 GMT
>Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  

A.    Finding watermarks after processing

The best thing to do is re-rinse them in distilled water and then in
Photo-Flo to which I add not just water but alcohol to improve wetness.

If that does not do it, then there are wetting agents that one can
purchase for direct application on a spot.  I find that they tend to
streak unless, after using them to loosen the emulsion, you then rinse
as noted above.

B.    Prevention

I use Photo-Flo in distilled water with some alcohol added.  As one of
the posters remarked, the problem seems to be most prevalent in 35 mm
film.  With 4x5 and 5x7 sheet film, I hand the film at an angle so that
all water runs to a single low point on the sheet of film.  I hang 35 mm
and 120 film by stainless steel clips, top and bottom, and hope that I
have provided enough distilled water and wetness to prevent such marks.  
Still, I find, that with 35 mm film it is hard to eliminate all
watermarks all the time.

Francis A. Miniter
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 23 Nov 2004 15:43 GMT
...
>B.    Prevention
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Francis A. Miniter

nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've been doing exactly the same, minus the alcohol and
PhotoFlo. I haven't used PhotoFlo in decades. I've
found distilled water does the trick perfectly, all by
itself. I apply it as a last 'rinse' when the films are
already hanging in their dust-free drying place, by
squirting it down both sides of the films. The
wonderful high tech distilled water applicator device:
a plastic soft drink bottle with a nipple-style
closure. Squirts real good. Replaceable for free.

I suppose water marks seem more of a problem in 35 mm
because of the greater magnification applied?

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Travis Porco - 25 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT
>>B.    Prevention

>>I use Photo-Flo in distilled water with some alcohol added.  As one of
>>the posters remarked, the problem seems to be most prevalent in 35 mm
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>>Francis A. Miniter

>nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,

>I've been doing exactly the same, minus the alcohol and
>PhotoFlo. I haven't used PhotoFlo in decades. I've
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>a plastic soft drink bottle with a nipple-style
>closure. Squirts real good. Replaceable for free.

>I suppose water marks seem more of a problem in 35 mm
>because of the greater magnification applied?

For what it's worth, I have been using distilled water (three rinses).
I haven't had any problems with water spots, but I only scan negatives at this
time.

--travis
Richard Knoppow - 11 Nov 2004 01:42 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Alan.

   Drying marks are usually deposits of magnesium or
calcium carbonate from the wash water. They can usually be
removed by soaking the film is fresh Acetic acid stop bath
for a couple of minutes and swabbing with cotton balls. The
film should then be washed for five minutes and treated in
the following, which is a good general purpose film final
rinse for B&W.

Distilled Water, to make    1.0 liter
Isopropyl alcohol          25.0 ml
Kodak Photo Flo             2.5 ml

Soak the film in this for about 2 minutes and hang up to
dry without squeegeeing.
70% rubbing alcohol can be used, increase the amount to
35ml. Just make sure its alcohol and water, not one of the
flavored varieties.

 If the Acetic acid stop bath does not take the marks off
try Citric acid, it is a sequestering agent for Magnesium
and Calcium. Ilford stop bath is a citric acid stop bath.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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