Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
Removing water marks from negatives
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Alan - 10 Nov 2004 09:12 GMT Hello,
I processed a roll of Ilford film the other night (first attempt at this!). The developing went fine, and before hanging the negatives to dry I put some rinse aid through the tank. However, I have water marks on the negs now they are dry, which show up on my scans.
So, what is the best method to remove these, and what should I have done differently to prevent these forming in the first place?
Many thanks,
Alan.
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Malcolm Stewart - 10 Nov 2004 09:19 GMT > Hello, > However, I have water marks on the negs now they are dry, which show up on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Many thanks, > Alan. Depends on how hard your water supply is, but here where my tap water supply is hard, I always use de-ionised water plus a very small amount of wetting agent for the final rinse. (If I'm doing E6 then I add formalin to the final rinse as well, followed by heat drying - it helps prevent fungal problems.)
 Signature M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm
Ian Pollard - 10 Nov 2004 09:36 GMT >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Alan The best way to get rid of watermarks is to gently polish the non-emulsion (glossy) side of the film with a very clean, (no dust particles), dry handkerchief. This will get rid of watermarks on the glossy side but I would be very careful about performing the same procedure on the emulsion (dull) side of the film. When you process your next film, wash as usual then when you are finished washing, add a generous few drops of wetting agent, not washing up liquid! to the tank. Plunge the spiral up and down in the solution, remove the film from the spiral and gently squeegee it between your first and second fingers after ensuring that you have no hard skin on your fingers. I do this every time and have processed hundreds of films without problems. Hope this helps.
Ian
 Signature Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK m0flc@yahoo.co.uk
Alan - 10 Nov 2004 10:48 GMT > >Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > >----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ian Thanks Ian.
Would it be wortwhile to re-wash the film I have already processed and then run through the squeegee process as instructed?
The rinse aid used was "RA50" from Photospeed. I quote:
" Fotospeed RA50 is a highly concentrated liquid designed to greatly reduce surface tension to allow the easy dispersion of water from the surface of photographic materials without damaging the emulsion. Used in the final rinse, it noticeably promotes streak free drying of film and shortens drying times. "
I diluted it 1/200 as recommended for my final wash. Maybe I should have washed it for longer??
Alan.
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Ian Pollard - 10 Nov 2004 11:50 GMT >Thanks Ian. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Alan I have rewashed film occasionally but never had good results as the emulsion has softened and distorted. I would carefully polish it if I were you. If the marks are on the glossy side of the film, I would tend to use my breath to moisten them prior to a light polish. If you use any fluid on the emulsion side, it will soften and spoil. I ignore the dilution instructions on the wetting agent and simply put enough in the tank to generate a mild buubly appearance on the water then plunge it up and down to ensure dispersion. I have been asked by a friend to rescue a marked film and have had to scan it, clean it in Photoshop and print it digitally because the marks were heavy and on the emulsion. If the film is going to be a total loss then you could try rewashing it for 20 minutes in cold water then adding a few drops as specified earlier but I wouldn't like to guarantee the result!!
Ian
 Signature Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK m0flc@yahoo.co.uk
Alan - 10 Nov 2004 13:23 GMT > >Thanks Ian. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > >----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ian Ian,
I'll try this on a strip. It doesn't matter too much if I loose any, as this was an un-important first run at developing. Better to find these problems now and deal with them rather than have them on something important later.
I'm pretty sure the water marks are on both sides of the negs, but will try the polishing trick on the glossy side.
Alan.
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Jan T - 13 Nov 2004 15:01 GMT | >Thanks Ian. | > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] | > | >----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
| >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups | >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | | Ian Alan,
if you can find Tetenal Film Cleaner, I'd recommend it. I need it on say 2% of my negs, and it has never let me down. If you apply it with a very soft, dustfree cotton cloth, you can even whipe the emulsion side. Don't rub, just one stroke with moistened cloth. This film cleaner also makes your negatives antistatic.
For your future films I second the advice of using demineralized water and a few drops of wetting agent.
Jan
Alan - 11 Nov 2004 13:50 GMT > >Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > >----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > >----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ian Ian,
I have tried this - and it worked great. The water marks were only on the glossy side, not both as I originally thought. Now I have to get rid of the dust on the negs due to the handkerchief - it wasn't as dust-free as I thought.
Alan.
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Ian Pollard - 11 Nov 2004 17:31 GMT >Ian, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Alan. Alan The best way to get rid of dust on negatives is to use an air spray. Quick blast across the negative rather than at it!!
Ian
 Signature Ian Pollard//Wooler//Northumberland//UK m0flc@yahoo.co.uk
Alan - 12 Nov 2004 14:34 GMT > >Ian, > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ian Will do, Thanks.
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Mike King - 10 Nov 2004 15:23 GMT You didn't say what format, I have a lot more problem with watermarks in 35mm. It's the water collected in the sprocket holes. (Another reason I love 120 for black and white.) As a preventative I use distilled water with a very small amount of Photoflo (or locally available photo-grade rinse agent). One poster, (Lloyd?) has suggested spraying film with distilled water after hanging and another workable suggestion was to hang 35mm horizontally so that the runoff has less travel distance before it gets out of the image area (will have to try this if I need to shoot 35mm, and I'm currently being tempted to buy an old Nikon F, load up some bulk Tri-X and do the p-j thing just for fun).
Since these are hard water deposits I usually have luck with one of the following remedies:
Dry polishing--be gentle!
Cleaning--base side only--with straight Photoflo. For permanence reprocess after scanning.
Cleaning--base side only--with stop bath. Most hard water scum is acid soluble.For permanence reprocess after scanning.
Reprocessing in stop bath, fixer, wash aid and wash, final rinse in distilled water. 1-2 drops of Photoflo per roll.
This may be one of those cases where processing in a traditional acid environment--stop bath and hardening traditional fixer is superior to an alkaline set of chemicals since calcium carbonate and its ilk are more soluble in acid solutions and less likely to precipitate--comments from the chemists in the house?
 Signature darkroommike
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> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Alan - 11 Nov 2004 13:52 GMT > You didn't say what format, I have a lot more problem with watermarks in > 35mm. It's the water collected in the sprocket holes. (Another reason I [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- Mike,
Yes, it's 35mm. Thanks for the tips.
Alan.
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David Kazdan - 11 Nov 2004 15:37 GMT I have had good luck leaving film on the reel for five or ten minutes after the Photo-Flo rinse. That lets most of the water drain horizontally. I then dry the bottom of the reel before removing the film.
David
> water after hanging and another workable suggestion was to hang 35mm > horizontally so that the runoff has less travel distance before it gets out > of the image area (will have to try this if I need to shoot 35mm, and I'm Philippe Lauwers - 10 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Don't use too much wetting-agent for your final rinse. If the stains appear greasy (which is easy to find out if you try polishing the shiny side assuming you are talking 35 mm), a short re-rinse should be sufficient to remove the wetting-agent residue from both sides of the film. Personally the only stains I've had on the emulsion side so far originiated in the use of way too much agepon. Just one drop should be sufficient for a half-liter tank. I've seen people using undissolved stopping-bath for removing stains that come form using (hard) tap-water. It works, but I can't help wondering why you should bother about rinsing your negs if you clean them this way afterwards.
Apart from using only a small amount of wetting-agent, I shake of most of the water when the negatives are still in the reel. After hanging the film to dry, I swipe off the exessive water using a moist piece of leather cloth that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my darkroom for a dictionnary !!!).
Just my experience ...
Philippe
Robert Vervoordt - 10 Nov 2004 20:07 GMT >Apart from using only a small amount of wetting-agent, I shake of most of >the water when the negatives are still in the reel. After hanging the film >to dry, I swipe off the exessive water using a moist piece of leather cloth >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my >darkroom for a dictionnary !!!). Chamois.
>Just my experience ... > >Philippe Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Philippe Lauwers - 11 Nov 2004 02:13 GMT > >a moist piece of leather cloth > >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA You must be the kindest dictionnary I've encountered so far. Thx
Robert Vervoordt - 11 Nov 2004 07:46 GMT >> >a moist piece of leather cloth >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >You must be the kindest dictionnary I've encountered so far. Thx And you the kindest user. You make me glad I could help.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Philippe Lauwers - 11 Nov 2004 14:04 GMT > >> >a moist piece of leather cloth > >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a dictionnary, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA Nice, are we going to play this game ?
Napoleon: This is an honor for me. Boris: No, it's a greater honor for me. Napoleon: No, a greater honor for me. Boris: No, it's a greater honor for me. Napoleon: No, a greater honor for ME. Boris: Well, perhaps you're right. Perhaps it IS a greater honor for you.
(WA's Love and Death)
Robert Vervoordt - 11 Nov 2004 14:59 GMT >> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth >> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a dictionnary, a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >(WA's Love and Death) Well, since it's not loaded with the dread passions of the recent flames, perhaps its uselessness will be seen more quickly.
Then again, it might seem so much a welcome relief, that a few more exchanges might be appreciated.
"After you, my dear brother" said Gaston. ...
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Richard Knoppow - 13 Nov 2004 11:30 GMT >>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth >>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA Of course there is also the Soviet Union version of this question: How to remove Marx from negatives.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Robert Vervoordt - 13 Nov 2004 15:18 GMT >>>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth >>>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Of course there is also the Soviet Union version of this >question: How to remove Marx from negatives. Now that's droll
Droll?
Droll wit d' marks dat I wanna purge.
Oh, lets's Trotsky out d Chamoise.
Never! Foreign Capitalist Elitist French ...
Well, we're not flaming each other, but it doesn't seem very useful.
Too bad ordinary discourse has descended to the nasty level achieved around here recently. I see connections to our (US) recent national elections. People have grown increasingly picky, territorial, intolerant and downright mean.
And that's just the Christians.
Ah, for a good "Divided Developer with Glycin" thread morphing into "C41 in modified Diafine for artistic expression". There aren't enough of us of that ilk to support more than a weeks postings and then not without blather and repetition.
Still, I like it the way it has become quieter around here.
Thank you John, Richard, Lloyd, Peter, Dan, Tom, Dick and Harry.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Tom Phillips - 13 Nov 2004 20:51 GMT > >>>> >> >a moist piece of leather cloth > >>>> >> >that is normally used for cleaning windows (a [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Now that's droll We should see more of Richard's sense of humor :-) ...
> Droll? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Still, I like it the way it has become quieter around here. Quick - someone start up a zone system thread!
> Thank you John, Richard, Lloyd, Peter, Dan, Tom, Dick and Harry. > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA Ah, careful with that tom dick and harry stuff ;)
Francis A. Miniter - 10 Nov 2004 19:35 GMT >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > A. Finding watermarks after processing
The best thing to do is re-rinse them in distilled water and then in Photo-Flo to which I add not just water but alcohol to improve wetness.
If that does not do it, then there are wetting agents that one can purchase for direct application on a spot. I find that they tend to streak unless, after using them to loosen the emulsion, you then rinse as noted above.
B. Prevention
I use Photo-Flo in distilled water with some alcohol added. As one of the posters remarked, the problem seems to be most prevalent in 35 mm film. With 4x5 and 5x7 sheet film, I hand the film at an angle so that all water runs to a single low point on the sheet of film. I hang 35 mm and 120 film by stainless steel clips, top and bottom, and hope that I have provided enough distilled water and wetness to prevent such marks. Still, I find, that with 35 mm film it is hard to eliminate all watermarks all the time.
Francis A. Miniter
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 23 Nov 2004 15:43 GMT ...
>B. Prevention > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Francis A. Miniter nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,
I've been doing exactly the same, minus the alcohol and PhotoFlo. I haven't used PhotoFlo in decades. I've found distilled water does the trick perfectly, all by itself. I apply it as a last 'rinse' when the films are already hanging in their dust-free drying place, by squirting it down both sides of the films. The wonderful high tech distilled water applicator device: a plastic soft drink bottle with a nipple-style closure. Squirts real good. Replaceable for free.
I suppose water marks seem more of a problem in 35 mm because of the greater magnification applied?
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Travis Porco - 25 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT >>B. Prevention
>>I use Photo-Flo in distilled water with some alcohol added. As one of >>the posters remarked, the problem seems to be most prevalent in 35 mm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Francis A. Miniter
>nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,
>I've been doing exactly the same, minus the alcohol and >PhotoFlo. I haven't used PhotoFlo in decades. I've [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >a plastic soft drink bottle with a nipple-style >closure. Squirts real good. Replaceable for free.
>I suppose water marks seem more of a problem in 35 mm >because of the greater magnification applied? For what it's worth, I have been using distilled water (three rinses). I haven't had any problems with water spots, but I only scan negatives at this time.
--travis
Richard Knoppow - 11 Nov 2004 01:42 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Alan. Drying marks are usually deposits of magnesium or calcium carbonate from the wash water. They can usually be removed by soaking the film is fresh Acetic acid stop bath for a couple of minutes and swabbing with cotton balls. The film should then be washed for five minutes and treated in the following, which is a good general purpose film final rinse for B&W.
Distilled Water, to make 1.0 liter Isopropyl alcohol 25.0 ml Kodak Photo Flo 2.5 ml
Soak the film in this for about 2 minutes and hang up to dry without squeegeeing. 70% rubbing alcohol can be used, increase the amount to 35ml. Just make sure its alcohol and water, not one of the flavored varieties.
If the Acetic acid stop bath does not take the marks off try Citric acid, it is a sequestering agent for Magnesium and Calcium. Ilford stop bath is a citric acid stop bath.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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