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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / December 2004

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Selenium toning RC paper

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Peter Chant - 04 Nov 2004 19:54 GMT
Does it do anything?

Last time I tried I use a fairly strong solution, maybe 1:4 and it seemed
to do nothing.

Will anything happen if I leave it a long time or should I just go for FB
paper?
Richard Knoppow - 04 Nov 2004 20:32 GMT
> Does it do anything?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> just go for FB
> paper?

  The problem is not that the paper is RC but the type of
emulsion. Selenium along with most other "direct" toners
works best on warm toned emulsions. This is because of the
size of the silver particles which make up the image. The
finer the silver particles the yellower the color of the
image. Because cold or neutral toned papers tend to have
comparitively coarse grains the effect of the toner as a
_color changer_ is less. However, the toner will still be
toning resulting in some intensification (darkening of the
shadows) and changing the chemical composition of the silver
image particles to a form less vulnerable to atmospheric
polutants.
  To get a good sepia color on cold/neutral tone papers try
an "indirect" type toner. These are the kind where the image
is first treated with a bleach and then "redeveloped" in a
sulfide solution. This type of toner works very well on
these papers. Kodak makes two versions of its Sepia toner,
the newer one, Sepia Toner II, works well on modern RC
papers which may be hard to bleach in the older version.
  The disadvantage of this type of toner is that it can't
be used for partial toning (at least not without split
toning).
  Depending on what paper you are using you may get better
results from Kodak Brown Toner although it also tends to
work better on cold tone papers.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 05 Nov 2004 10:53 GMT
>> Does it do anything?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> results from Kodak Brown Toner although it also tends to
> work better on cold tone papers.

  I will add a word to this. Sulfiding toners tend to smell
of Hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs). some people are sensitive
to this. I suggest using toners like bleach and redevelop
sepia where there is lots of ventillation. KBT and Viradon
also tend to smell. Also, Hydrogen sulfide tends to fog
undeveloped film and paper so these toners should not be
used near them. While Hydrogen Sulfite is toxic it becomes
very unpleasant at levels well below a hazardous
concentration. None of this stuff is really dangerous but
due precaution and common sense should be employed.
  There are more toner variations than you can believe.
Some of the old ones work and some don't. In general those
published by Kodak and Agfa are reliable.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Jordan Wosnick - 05 Nov 2004 15:45 GMT
>    I will add a word to this. Sulfiding toners tend to smell
> of Hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs). some people are sensitive
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Some of the old ones work and some don't. In general those
> published by Kodak and Agfa are reliable.

When smell is a problem, the use of a thiocarbamide-based toner
is helpful. The alkaline thiocarbamide solution takes the role of
the sodium sulfide solution (bleaching beforehand is still
required). The chemical transformation is the same, but there is
no free hydrogen sulfide in the solution and hence no odour. The
'warmth' of the sepia tone can be controlled to a certain extent
by the alkalinity of the thiocarbamide solution.

I believe that Photographer's Formulary as well as others sells
thiocarbamide toner kits (sometimes called 'odourless sepia
toner'). They may be a little more expensive but the lack of
odour and toxic H2S fumes more than make up for it IMO.

Jordan
Peter Chant - 07 Nov 2004 20:38 GMT
>    The problem is not that the paper is RC but the type of
> emulsion.

Cheers.  Much longer responses than I was expecting.  At least I know with
RC papers I am using that nothing major will happen, burt the results are
still useful.

Now all I have to do is get this new newsreader to save the thread.  Grrr.

Now am I have to do is make some prints worth of the effort...

Pete
Jef - 05 Dec 2004 16:35 GMT
> >    The problem is not that the paper is RC but the type of
> > emulsion.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Pete

I just want to add that I have acheived superb results toning Kodak
Polymax II RC F in selenium from anywehere between 1:5 to 1:20
dilutions (Kodak Selenium). I must confess that it is my favourite RC
paper, even for final prints. I just hope they keep on making it.
There are times when Ilford semi-matt RC is good as well, but I love
the acheivable resolution of this paper. It is very responsive to
selenium toning, even with it's neutral to cold tone. Just my $0.02.
Jordan Wosnick - 04 Nov 2004 21:41 GMT
Richard Knoppow's comments are good. In my experience selenium
toning tends to deepen and "neutralise" the blacks of RC paper.
Try making two identical prints on RC paper. Tone one in selenium
toner and keep the other untouched as a comparison. Compare them
side-by-side after washing and drying. You may find that the
blacks of the untoned print look a little "green" by comparison.

Jordan

> Does it do anything?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Will anything happen if I leave it a long time or should I just go for FB
> paper?
Francis A. Miniter - 04 Nov 2004 21:53 GMT
>Does it do anything?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Will anything happen if I leave it a long time or should I just go for FB
>paper?

Hi Peter, a few years ago I posted the following selenium toning matrix
to the newsgroup.  I hope it helps.

Francis A. Miniter

From: Francis A. Miniter
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&q=author:miniter%40attglobal.net+>
(miniter@attglobal.net <mailto:miniter%40attglobal.net>)
Subject: Selenium Toning Matrix

Groups: rec.photo.darkroom
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&group=rec.photo.darkroom>
Date: 2001-12-10 18:59:34 PST

Dear Friends,

Some time ago, so long ago that many of you have probably forgotten, I
undertook in one of my posts to keep track of the selenium toning
results of various papers after processing in various developers.  I
have done so for about 9 papers in 3 developers.  Now I have not tested
every paper in every one of the three developers, so the matrix below is
not complete.  But it is a start and I will add to it from time to
time.  The results show toning to completion - generally about 30
minutes in 1:9 dilution of KRST at 68 degrees F.

Selenium Toning to Completion after development in:

Dektol:

Ilford MGIVFB            Purple
Vesta MC WT FB           Brown
Oriental Seagull G5      *****
Vesta MC CT RC           *****
Kodak Polymax FB         *****
Ilford MG WT FB          Chocolate, Red-Brown
Sterling Warm VCFB       *****
Forte Fortezo G2,4       Brown, skin-tones
Panalure                 Warmish Purple

Agfa 120 1:3 dilution

Ilford MGIVFB            Cold Black
Vesta MC WT FB           Reddish Brown
Oriental Seagull G5      Purple Brown
Vesta MC CT RC           Purple/black
Kodak Polymax FB         Cool Grey
Ilford MG WT FB          *****
Sterling Warm VCFB       *****
Forte Fortezo G2,4       *****
Panalure                 *****

Dassonville D-3 (this is an autotoning developer that itself tones
warmtone papers)

Ilford MGIVFB            No Shift
Vesta MC WT FB           *****
Oriental Seagull G5      *****
Vesta MC CT RC           *****
Kodak Polymax FB         *****
Ilford MG WT FB          Weak Soft Brown
Sterling Warm VCFB       Brown to purplish brown
Forte Fortezo G2,4       *****
Panalure                 *****

Francis A. Miniter
Peter Chant - 07 Nov 2004 20:36 GMT
> Selenium Toning to Completion after development in:

I suspect that took a bit of time!
Francis A. Miniter - 08 Nov 2004 00:59 GMT
>>Selenium Toning to Completion after development in:
>
> I suspect that took a bit of time!

It did.  Every time I toned a paper I made a record of what I was doing.

Francis A. Miniter
HypoBob - 04 Nov 2004 22:51 GMT
Peter,

Emulsion, developer, and even fixer can affect toning.  In general, the Ilford RC papers do not
show much, if any, effect from selenium toning.  Ilford's Cool Tone RC paper, though, does cool
off even more in selenium.

Afga's RC papers respond well to selenium.  Their MultiContrast Premium also cools off when
developed in Ilford's Bromophen.

For a fiber-based paper that responds well to different developers and toners, try a pack of
Forte Elegance.

Sometimes a hardening fixer (i.e., contains alum) will retard the action of a toner.

Even when there is not much visible change from selenium toning, it does provide protection and
stability by converting the silver to silver selenide.

If you have a print you want to protect (archive) without altering the tone, use Agfa's Sistan.

Bob

> Does it do anything?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Will anything happen if I leave it a long time or should I just go for FB
> paper?
stefano bramato - 05 Nov 2004 00:34 GMT
> Does it do anything?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Will anything happen if I leave it a long time or should I just go for FB
> paper?

Hi Peter,
Richard show you everything you need in few owrds. Magic.
Only 2 cents from me:
On the RC Ilford papers selenium toner, also in very strong solution
does nothing but wipe off that slight green stain of these RC papers,
making more beautiful and dense shadow. More *pure* blacks and shadows.
It also protect the prints as other people has written so, more useful
for this reason I use Selenium TOner at 1:20-
I protect all of my fine prints wih this diluted solution.
With toning i suggest the brown tone of Sepia TOners, two bath toners,
not properly odorless!!
I use it on Forte Papers and looks so pretty.

On warm papers give a beatiful dark magenta tone. I love it so much and
is my favourite tone.
I usually use Ilford Warmtone papers. FB&RC
With this kinda papers i strongly suggest Selenium but if you want a
more *vintage feel* try some sepia toner or both.

Ciao!!
Stefano
Signature

Non ? bello cio che ? bello figuriamoci cio che ? brutto!
Ed io imparo.

Peter Chant - 07 Nov 2004 20:33 GMT
> Hi Peter,
> Richard show you everything you need in few owrds. Magic.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> not properly odorless!!
> I use it on Forte Papers and looks so pretty.

Ah ha, so I should expect to see little, but it does increase archive
performance.

> On warm papers give a beatiful dark magenta tone. I love it so much and
> is my favourite tone.
> I usually use Ilford Warmtone papers. FB&RC
> With this kinda papers i strongly suggest Selenium but if you want a
> more *vintage feel* try some sepia toner or both.

Cheers
 
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