Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
Battery Acid? Sulfuric.
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Gregory W Blank - 01 Nov 2004 20:40 GMT Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid?
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Alan Smithee - 01 Nov 2004 22:41 GMT > Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? 35 per cent Sulfuric Acid, or there abouts, in a proper 12 volts car battery. What are you going to do with it?
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 00:08 GMT >>Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? > > 35 per cent Sulfuric Acid, or there abouts, in a proper 12 volts car > battery. What are you going to do with it? I suspect he needs a 10% solution for some photographic purpose (pemanganate, dichromate, and copper sulfate bleach formulae all call for X ml of sulfuric acid without calling out the strength, apparently assuming we'll know what strength is "standard photographic" -- I've wondered what %, molality, molarity, or normality I'd need 10 ml of).
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Gregory W Blank - 02 Nov 2004 00:37 GMT > > Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? > > 35 per cent Sulfuric Acid, or there abouts, in a proper 12 volts car > battery. What are you going to do with it? I figured it was about that, the guy at the auto battery supply said it was somewhat stronger than vinegar. I figured since glacial acetic is around 28% that this must be around the same. I am going to use it to process control E6,.....if my Ph meter its functional.
Hum? I think that means I want a 3 to 1 ratio to get a 1% solution.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 01:36 GMT >>>Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? >> >>35 per cent Sulfuric Acid, or there abouts, in a proper 12 volts car >>battery. What are you going to do with it? > > Hum? I think that means I want a 3 to 1 ratio to get a 1% solution. Huh?? If you have 35%, you'd need to dilute it 1:34 to get a 1% solution.
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Gregory W Blank - 02 Nov 2004 01:45 GMT
> > Hum? I think that means I want a 3 to 1 ratio to get a 1% solution. > > Huh?? If you have 35%, you'd need to dilute it 1:34 to get a 1% solution. Something did not compute thanks.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Alan Smithee - 02 Nov 2004 01:56 GMT > > > Hum? I think that means I want a 3 to 1 ratio to get a 1% solution. > > > > Huh?? If you have 35%, you'd need to dilute it 1:34 to get a 1% solution. > > Something did not compute thanks. You're using new acid right. You're not dumping your car's battery into a grad right? The car battery acid would have a lot of lead compounds in solution I think.
Gregory W Blank - 02 Nov 2004 02:05 GMT
> You're using new acid right. You're not dumping your car's battery into a > grad right? The car battery acid would have a lot of lead compounds in > solution I think. Its fresh, and only cost two bucks.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Alan Smithee - 02 Nov 2004 02:24 GMT > > You're using new acid right. You're not dumping your car's battery into a > > grad right? The car battery acid would have a lot of lead compounds in > > solution I think. > > Its fresh, and only cost two bucks. You never know how cheap some people are though...
Gregory W Blank - 02 Nov 2004 06:44 GMT > You never know how cheap some people are though... Are you speaking for yourself :-) Or just in general ?
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Alan Smithee - 02 Nov 2004 17:08 GMT Of myself, then the general public.
> > You never know how cheap some people are though... > > Are you speaking for yourself :-) Or just in general ? Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 11:50 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Its fresh, and only cost two bucks. Cool, and that's from a battery retailer? I'll need some for bleach when I'm ready to do reversals...
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 01:51 GMT > > > Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is around 28% that this must be around the same. I am going to use it > to process control E6,.....if my Ph meter its functional. I'd think there might be a question of purities (i.e., containing a number of unquanitifiable imputities.) Probably better to use a reagent grade where the normality (36N/100%) and purity is known.
Then again at the minute amount of 5N you use it might be fine as long as you get the correct dilution.
> Hum? I think that means I want a 3 to 1 ratio to get a 1% solution. > -- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 Gregory W Blank - 02 Nov 2004 02:10 GMT > I'd think there might be a question of purities (i.e., > containing a number of unquanitifiable imputities.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then again at the minute amount of 5N you use it might > be fine as long as you get the correct dilution. I suppose its possible its not pure, but for two bucks for almost two liters I couldn't refuse. I'll be trying it on test strips first.
The concentration is more to my liking than reagent grade meerly do to the handling issues.
I'll be calling B&H for control strips tommorrow (which is a special order) any where you know of the might stock actually them?
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 02:35 GMT > > I'd think there might be a question of purities (i.e., > > containing a number of unquanitifiable imputities.) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'll be calling B&H for control strips tommorrow (which is a special order) > any where you know of the might stock actually them? It's been years since I knew of someone who kept a stock.
A good E6 lab might (or would sell some) but usually they use the rolls. You want the 5 inch strips.
Make sure they ship them on ice...
Robert Vervoordt - 02 Nov 2004 09:25 GMT >I'll be calling B&H for control strips tommorrow (which is a special order) >any where you know of the might stock actually them? Yoda?
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 12:39 GMT > >I'll be calling B&H for control strips tommorrow (which is a special order) > >any where you know of the might stock actually them? > > Yoda? > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA Well, I wouldn't have put ot quite that way, but...
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 01:20 GMT > > Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? > > 35 per cent Sulfuric Acid, or there abouts, in a proper 12 volts car > battery. What are you going to do with it? yes, what... :-)
Richard Knoppow - 02 Nov 2004 08:19 GMT > Any idea what the percent is of regular car battery acid? The acid sold as a replacement electrolyte in car batteries is around 35% Sulfuric by weight. The electrolyte in the battery varies in concentration depending on the condition of charge. At full charge it is around 40% at discharge its around 10%. Most photographic formulas call for concentrated Sulfuric Acid which is between 93% and 98% by weight.
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 11:54 GMT > Most photographic formulas call for concentrated Sulfuric Acid > which is between 93% and 98% by weight. AHA!!
Thank you, Richard! I've been looking all over for that information -- I've got a number of formulae for non-halogenating bleaches, for use in B&W reversal, that call for X ml of sulfuric acid -- without specifying what strength. You just filled in the missing piece...
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 12:56 GMT > > Most photographic formulas call for concentrated Sulfuric Acid > > which is between 93% and 98% by weight. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > B&W reversal, that call for X ml of sulfuric acid -- without specifying > what strength. You just filled in the missing piece... I fail to see why that would be such a mystery.
Reagent grade is _standard_, as I also advised Greg. But battery acid may work...
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 13:18 GMT >>> Most photographic formulas call for concentrated Sulfuric Acid >>>which is between 93% and 98% by weight. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Reagent grade is _standard_, as I also advised Greg. > But battery acid may work... Reagent grade surely is standard -- but use of concentrated acid, rather than a standard dilution, isn't necessarily standard (especially with acids like nitric, hydrochloric, and sulfuric, which are relatively hazardous to handle in concentrated form). I've seen many formulae (not necessarily only photographic) various places that called for a standard dilution of this or that, either because it was more available, less expensive (even after figuring how much was just water), more convenient to measure, or simply because it was significantly safer to handle. I would surely place sulfuric acid in the last category, even if none of the former.
For bleach, where the formula calls for (IIRC) 10 ml of acid in a liter of working solution (for which I'd substitute about 28 ml of the 35% battery acid -- have to do the math with a calculator to get the exact figure), the only good reason to use reagent grade is, as you suggest, to avoid unknown impurities. Given the differences in both price and handling (I can buy a liter size pouch of battery electrolyte for a lot less than the hazmat fee on the shipping of a minimum quantity of reagent grade acid, and it comes packed in a shatterproof elastomer pouch instead of a glass jug), I'd consider it worthwhile to try the battery acid. It's cheap enough to simply dispose of if it turns out not to work well, and if it does work well, it makes a huge difference for my use (and probably for Greg's, as well).
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 13:30 GMT > >>> Most photographic formulas call for concentrated Sulfuric Acid > >>>which is between 93% and 98% by weight. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > acids like nitric, hydrochloric, and sulfuric, which are relatively > hazardous to handle in concentrated form). Well, I think reagent grade is standard with regard to published photographic solutions.
> I've seen many formulae (not > necessarily only photographic) various places that called for a standard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would surely place sulfuric acid in the last category, even if none of > the former. E6 calls for reagent grade (36N), which is diluted for use. Greg knows this, but is cheaper to obtain battery acid.
> For bleach, where the formula calls for (IIRC) 10 ml of acid in a liter > of working solution (for which I'd substitute about 28 ml of the 35% [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > not to work well, and if it does work well, it makes a huge difference > for my use (and probably for Greg's, as well). As I said it may work fine.
photo@woelen.nl - 04 Nov 2004 00:13 GMT Standard concentration for car battery acid is 32% H2SO4. When mixing this for preparing a 10% or 1% solution, keep in mind that the density of a solution of 32% is considerably larger than 1.0 gram/ml. Lookup a table for the density at this concentration.
When the acid is diluted, I would not bother about lead impurities. Lead sulfate is HIGHLY insoluble in water, and in dilute acid. Only in concentrated H2SO4, lead sulfate is soluble to some extent.
When you use sulphuric acid, be careful with it. When sulphuric acid is spilled, it does not evaporate (as opposed to nitric acid and hydrochloric acid). Even low concentration acids can be risky when spilled and left unnoticed. Most of the water evaporates out of the acid and a certain equilibrium concentration of several tens of percents is obtained in the long run. It eats virtually everything, when sufficiently concentrated. Car battery acid is of sufficient concentration to worry about this risk.
I sometimes use technical grade sulphuric acid and it works fine for photography purposes. The use of reagent grade (expensive) acid is not necessary.
Wilco
Gregory W Blank - 04 Nov 2004 04:00 GMT > Standard concentration for car battery acid is 32% H2SO4. When mixing > this for preparing a 10% or 1% solution, keep in mind that the density [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Wilco Thanks for that!!
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Richard Knoppow - 04 Nov 2004 12:02 GMT > Standard concentration for car battery acid is 32% H2SO4. > When mixing [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Wilco I believe that reagent grade chemicals may not actually be any purer than technical or photo grade but comes with an assay showing the impurities and their amounts. High purity chemicals are available but are very expensive. For photography technical grade chemicals are perfectly satisfactory for more purposes. I should have pointed out in my post as you did that the more diluted battery acid can be used in most formulas by simply increasing the amount. Unless it has certain metallic impurities which are specifically injurious to photo processes it should work fine. Lead should make no difference since lead lined containers were standard practice for many years for photo processing. Aluminium, copper, brass, iron, should be avoided. Copper in very small amounts is a prodigeous fogging agent.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Gregory W Blank - 04 Nov 2004 12:33 GMT > I believe that reagent grade chemicals may not actually > be any purer than technical or photo grade but comes with an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > copper, brass, iron, should be avoided. Copper in very small > amounts is a prodigeous fogging agent. Interesting, I know the acid did not come from old batteries,... the guy who sold it to me had a large cubey-tainer from which he was filing smaller charging bottles the larger cubey-tainer was factory packaged acid and he told my bottles came from it.
 Signature LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Donald Qualls - 04 Nov 2004 14:23 GMT >> I believe that reagent grade chemicals may not actually >>be any purer than technical or photo grade but comes with an [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > which he was filing smaller charging bottles the larger cubey-tainer > was factory packaged acid and he told my bottles came from it. That's the way battery acid is normally distributed; acid recovered from recycled batteries is disposed of as hazarous waste. It's not the lead; that's relatively easy to precipitate any remaining lead that might be in solution (neutralize with baking soda or chalk, and the lead sulfate will precipitate). It's cadmium, which stays in solution better than lead (cadmium sulfate is about as soluble as silver sulfate, and will remain dissolved at hazarous levels in a neutral solution), and is added to the plates in modern batteries to extend their life.
Last time I had battery acid around, it came to me in a small rubbery pouch (I think it was some kind of silicone elastomer, in fact) that was to be used in filling the (dry charged) battery immediately before installation or in the store for rack charging prior to sale. Battery acid obtained in containers, rather than manually drained from a battery by the end user, should be plain technical grade acid diluted with filtered water to working strength (the water is filtered in a manner that specifically removes chlorides, most likely reverse osmosis; chloride ion poisons the reaction that makes a lead-acid battery work).
Basic precaution in handling battery acid is to neutralize the working area with baking soda after work is completed -- specifically to prevent evaporative concentration warned of in another thread. Also worthy of note, a tiny drop of battery acid will eat a hole in any cotton cloth that won't show up until the article is laundered and the damaged area crumbles or dissolves in the wash water. It's similarly hazardous to eyes; wear goggles (or, better, a full face shield) as well as the heavy neoprene or nitrile gloves, and preferably a neoprene coated apron as well. Have an eye wash available (a shower works very well for this), and keep a box of baking soda handy.
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
prep@prep.synonet.com - 05 Nov 2004 17:56 GMT > "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, > or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, > is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable > to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 You need to check if it is 35%, or if it is diluted down for filling as is. 35% is diluted before it is used in the batteries, but nowdays they may well be shipping the more dilute read to use conc so as to not confuse the burger flippers.
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