Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
B/W Photo Processing Dangerous or Harmful with Pregnancy?
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Jason - 29 Oct 2004 16:25 GMT Hello,
My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant. We're worried something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to school developing photos in a B/W lab.
Here's the gist of what happened: We've traced the conception date to 10/14. We found out today, which is 10/29. Her last visit to the dark room was on the 24th, ~9 or 10 days after conception. Within those ~10 days, she went to the dark room 4 times spending a total of ~8 hours in it. She did not use gloves and touched the solution with her bare fingers. Quickly after touching the solution, she washed her hands with water, no soap was used. Before the conception date, she's spent the last 6 weeks in the dark room, maybe once or twice a week.
I already know how stupid we are for doing what we did, so please do not lecture me on that. I would really like to know if we did any harm to the baby and if there is anything we can do now besides pray. Thank you for your help.
-Jason
Bob Salomon - 29 Oct 2004 16:29 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Jason Why wouldn't you ask her doctor?
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LR Kalajainen - 29 Oct 2004 17:15 GMT I'm not sure most ob/gyn's would know the toxicity of common photo chemicals. Probably better to call the manufacturer of the chemical and ask what the constituents of each solution (developer, fixer, etc.) are if there is no list of ingredients on the label. Then do a Google search on the individual chemicals; this will turn up at least one or more websites where toxicity descriptions of various chemicals are located. Many of those descriptions will say whether the chemical can be absorbed through the skin and the degree of toxicity incurred.
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that, depending on what chemicals your wife was using, she was probably more at risk from fumes than from touching the solutions. Most darkroom chemicals are fairly harmless, though there are some that are definitely toxic. That's why you're right not to take the risk of not knowing. But it is important to identify the specific chemicals so you can get accurate information.
> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Why wouldn't you ask her doctor? Donald Qualls - 29 Oct 2004 18:14 GMT > Hello, > > My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant. We're worried > something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to > school developing photos in a B/W lab. Unless she was selenium toning with skin contact or bathing her hands in developer for prolonged periods, it's unlikely you've done any harm. There are many professions for which the practitioners pay with shortened lifespans -- chemists, for instance, have a high incidence of cancer and organ failures due to solvents used in their work, as do painters and auto body workers. Photographers have show no such effect, even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.
There are some people who become sensitized to certain chemicals -- metol, aka Elon, is one, various aldehydes used in non-metal gelatin hardeners are another (glutaraldehyde is the most common, but it's used mainly in X-ray processing to protect emulsion at very high process temperatures needed for rapid results). Pyrogallol is toxic, but not significantly more so than many other chemicals we use regularly, including permanent hair dyes. Color developers, bleach, and especially stabilizer are others for which skin contact should be avoided.
Of these, AFAIK only pyrogallol and metol are known to have significant skin contact risks, and pyrogallol is rarely if ever used in instruction for photography; most likely the developer she was using for printing was Dektol or similar containing metol and hydroquinone. If she doesn't have a relatively immediate reaction, she's not sensitive, and it's my understanding metol isn't signifcantly absorbed through the skin. Developers also typically contains a good bit of sodium sulfite as a preservative and silver solvent.
Stop bath isn't anything to worry about -- acetic acid, same as vinegar; if you have a variety without indicator dye, you could drink it without harm.
Fixer has sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite as a preservative (sodium sulfite is also used as a food additive), sodium metabisulfite (another food additive), and acetic acid (vinegar again). Sodium thiosulfate is the specific antidote for cyanide poisoning; it isn't a recommended dietary supplement, but isn't significantly toxic. The biggest hazard from fixer is sulfur dioxide evolved from a reaction of the thiosulfate with acid, and this is in very low concentrations.
Used developer and fixer both contained dissolved silver compounds and complexes, but these aren't normally a skin absorption hazard.
Overall, I'd be surprised if there were a problem -- there's a much bigger risk if she had a few glasses of wine or beer in the last couple weeks before learning of the conception, IMO.
Disclaimer: I'm neither a toxicity expert nor a physician -- everything I've said here should be checked with someone who is qualified to verify it. Chemical names you'll want besides those above are phenidone, dimezone, pyrocatechin, and p-aminophenol hydrochloride, benzotriazole, potassium iodide, sodium perborate, sodium metaborate, sodium carbonate, possibly sodium hydroxide if using Rodinal (these last four alkali activators for developers), tetrasodium EDTA, Calgon, and similar sequestrants and chelators.
To give some idea how harmless a developer *can* be, you can develop film in coffee with sodium carbonate added...
 Signature The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions. -- Ansel Adams
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer http://silent1.home.netcom.com
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
John - 29 Oct 2004 19:16 GMT >Photographers have show no such effect, >even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work. Including Ansel Adams who consistently dipped his hands in chemicals for many years but there was no conclusive indication that this had any effect on him.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Frank Pittel - 29 Oct 2004 19:48 GMT : >Photographers have show no such effect, : >even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.
: Including Ansel Adams who consistently dipped his hands in : chemicals for many years but there was no conclusive indication that : this had any effect on him. While I don't think most B&W chemistry is harmful I think it's best to avoid drinking it or coming into direct contact with it. I still remember when working on cars and lawnmowers we used to wash our hands with leaded gasoline. In jr. high school we used asbestos gloves and boards when dealing with alcohol lamps.
If the OP is concerned he may want to go to Kodak's website and download the MSDSs of the chemistry his wife came into contact with.
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John - 30 Oct 2004 05:21 GMT >: >Photographers have show no such effect, >: >even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >While I don't think most B&W chemistry is harmful ... I'll just add that most commercially available formulas are what is left after the many decades of getting rid of known-toxic agents like pyrogallol, PPD and mercuric chloride. Anything left is relatively innocuous when used for it's intended purpose and following the (usually extremely cautious) instructions.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
John - 29 Oct 2004 19:13 GMT >She did not use gloves and touched the solution with >her bare fingers. GASP !!!!! GADZOOKS !!!!! LAWDY LAWDY !!!!! HOW COULD YOU .... !!!
(:>)
> Quickly after touching the solution, she washed her >hands with water, no soap was used. Before the conception date, she's >spent the last 6 weeks in the dark room, maybe once or twice a week. > >I already know how stupid we are for doing what we did, so please do >not lecture me on that. No but what I would lecture you on is completely over-reacting to the folklore about darkroom chemistry. The fact is that your wife would be at the same or greater risk if she uses laundry detergent, bleach, dandruff shampoo, perfume, air freshener, drinks coffee or tea or is otherwise exposed to the many other numerous commonly used chemical concoctions around the average household.
FYI, most developers are not easily absorbed through the skin. Most developing agents are relatively benign and in fact some have medicinal uses. Stop bath is simply an acidic solution usually comprised of acetic acid (think vinegar) and water. Fixer is simply ammonium thiosulfate which is not known to be toxic when used accordingly.
That said, if she should drink a cocktail of the above solutions she may indeed suffer severe cramps which could theoretically induce an abortion. Given that this isn't likely I would just recommend that she make sure there is adequate ventilation and that she take plenty of breaks to prevent varicose veins and other problems.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Michael A. Covington - 29 Oct 2004 22:19 GMT This question is asked frequently. I have never seen, from any authoritative source, any warnings about hazards to pregnant women from black-and-white darkroom chemistry. Material safety data sheets are available for all the materials; you can read them if you're curious. The bottom line is that nothing in ordinary black-and-white work is very dangerous.
jjs - 29 Oct 2004 19:39 GMT > Hello, > > My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant. We're worried > something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to > school developing photos in a B/W lab. The most likely consequence of this case will be the baby's exposure will be to his/her father's alarmist presumptions. You are advised to consult a professional, not Usenet (for God's sake) for answers, and possible treatment for your anxiety lest you infect the child.
John - 30 Oct 2004 05:28 GMT >> My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant. We're worried >> something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >professional, not Usenet (for God's sake) for answers, and possible >treatment for your anxiety lest you infect the child. By John you've hit the nail on the head ! The wife is fine but the husband is suffering from Post-Exposure Anxiety Syndrome !! (aka PEAS)
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
C. Falise - 29 Oct 2004 21:02 GMT i wouldn't worry about it jason- it's nice to see your concern for both your wife and future child. all sarcasm aside, she would probably have to soak in a bath of fixer for a week before any problems would arise if they did at all. i have known several professional women photographers and they all continued darkroom work during their pregnancies with no problems (at least not due to their work...) one poster's advice is best - good ventilation, frequent breaks (vericose veins, ciculation etc). also if she is really worried, there are these things called tongs that many use to fish their prints out of chemical baths!
:) good luck with your family- -c.
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Jason Gregory W Blank - 29 Oct 2004 21:34 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Jason The question is: is there any reason to believe something bad has happened already to the baby at this time? A more important question is does she consume alcohol and smoke cigarettes? A simple blood test might confirm if any chemistry was absorbed into her blood stream, my uneducated guess is no and your worries are more than likely just that. & Needless of course I am not an expert in prenatle care nor do I pretend or intend to be all opinions expressed are my own and consequently bear no responsiblity for misuse or misunderstanding of their content. (Standard disclaimer in this context) Seek a doctors help in the event such side effects from reading these contents produces nervousness or shortness of breath.
Got enough money for college and diapers?
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Uranium Committee - 30 Oct 2004 00:37 GMT The amount of chemical absorbed through the skin is minute. I would not worry.
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Jason Richard Knoppow - 30 Oct 2004 19:11 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > -Jason Here is what Kodak has on their web site:
Working With Photoprocessing Chemicals During Pregnancy
We are frequently asked about the potential hazards of working with photographic processing chemicals during pregnancy and if this presents a health concern for the mother or fetus. We are aware of no substantiated reports of adverse reproductive effects among people working with KODAK photoprocessing products.
All users are encouraged to follow the handling instructions on the product labels and material safety data sheets (MSDS) and abide by applicable country-specific regulations concerning potential occupational exposures during pregnancy. In addition, if you are pregnant, you should also provide your physician with this information. A general recommendation is to minimize skin, eye, and inhalation exposure by using good industrial hygiene practices. These include the use of gloves or tongs (for use in tray processing), goggles or other eye protection, rubber aprons or other suitable protective clothing, and working in a well-ventilated area. Unless otherwise stated on the MSDS, good industrial strength neoprene rubber or nitrile gloves should be used whenever there is a potential for skin contact.
There are no chemicals in any Kodak photoprocessing product associated with adverse reproductive effects in humans. There are a limited number of Kodak photochemical products that contain a minor component that has been associated with reproductive toxicity in animals through feeding studies. Ingestion, the route of exposure in these laboratory studies, is not an expected route of exposure for humans working with these photoprocessing chemicals. For these products, information regarding the potential health hazards, in addition to safe handling guidelines, can be found on the product label and Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDSs). There is no evidence that any component of or emission from a Kodak photoprocessing chemical can cause reproductive effects in animals or humans by skin contact or through inhalation.
Typical airborne emissions from Kodak photographic processing solutions can include irritating gasses such as sulfur dioxide, ammonia, and acetic acid. Since these chemicals may have unpleasant odors, they can be detected at low concentrations in the air. The ability to detect a chemical by odor does not mean that it is present at a concentration that will cause an adverse health effect. However, if room ventilation is not adequate, the vapors may cause transient headache, nausea, or eye, nose, and throat irritation. Typically, the symptoms will clear when the person is away from the exposure for a day or two and reappear when the person is again exposed.
To speak with a Kodak toxicologist about this issue or any other health issue related to a Kodak product or process, please contact KES.
KES is Kodak Envirionmental Services. They can be contacted at:
http://www.kodak.com/cgi-bin/webGenericSurvey.cgi
Or, if you are in the US you can call customer service at 1 800 242 2424
B&W chemistry has very low toxicity when at working strength. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
PATRICK GAINER - 31 Oct 2004 01:49 GMT > > [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > My wife and I were both photo nuts since before we were married. We both developed film and prints in our kitchen before we had a darkroom and after. We had six children with no miscarriages or birth defects. All were above average intelligence and physically strong. Just don't drink the stuff.
Nowadays you can develop film and paper in solutions of vitamin C, laundry detergent and a minute amount of phenidone and get very good results. Some toners are toxic, but they will not jump out and grab you. You can do the dangerous stuff and your wife can do anything else.
sreenath - 02 Nov 2004 13:02 GMT > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Jason From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :
"Possible mutagen and teratogen"
"A teratogen is an agent that can cause malformations of an embryo or fetus"
Metol and a few other very commonly used developing agent contains Aminophenol. If you happen to consult a doctor, please mention this.
As others have already mentioned, the quantity of the chemical that might have been absorbed by the system is likey to be very small.
-Sreenath
Michael A. Covington - 02 Nov 2004 14:35 GMT > From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) : > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -Sreenath Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible" teratogen.
Normally, we do not get any of this stuff into our bodies at all. It is a water-soluble compound that is not readily absorbed through the skin. Did she drink the developer?
Of course the doctor will say to avoid possible teratogens. The real question is how much of it is needed to produce an observable teratogenic effect. Probably a gigantic amount, considering that they listed it as only "possible." This would imply that large doses of it were fed to rats in an experiment, and even then, the results were unclear.
John - 03 Nov 2004 06:31 GMT >Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible" >teratogen. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"possible." This would imply that large doses of it were fed to rats in an >experiment, and even then, the results were unclear. Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now that's a dose !
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Michael A. Covington - 03 Nov 2004 23:49 GMT >>Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible" >>teratogen. >> >>Normally, we do not get any of this stuff into our bodies at all. It is a >>water-soluble compound that is not readily absorbed through the skin. Did >>she drink the developer? ...
> Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and > find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used > as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now > that's a dose ! Yes, and pyrogallol does NOT count as conventional black-and-white processing chemistry any time since maybe half a century ago! I thought we were talking about an MQ developer.
John - 04 Nov 2004 08:15 GMT >> Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and >> find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >processing chemistry any time since maybe half a century ago! I thought we >were talking about an MQ developer. We are. I was just trying to point out how even one of the more toxic agents requires virtually complete submersion to cause critical system failure.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Next time vote "No! for the status quo and vote 3rd party !!
Gregory W Blank - 04 Nov 2004 04:16 GMT > Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and > find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used > as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now > that's a dose ! The people that died fell into the vat.
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
John - 04 Nov 2004 08:16 GMT >The people that died fell into the vat. That's what I thought. Unfortunately I don't have the Merc available anymore. My friend the chemist decided he needed it.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Next time vote "No! for the status quo and vote 3rd party !!
Jordan Wosnick - 02 Nov 2004 15:19 GMT > From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) : > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Aminophenol. > If you happen to consult a doctor, please mention this. Without commenting on the toxicities of metol and p-aminophenol, it's important to note that metol is a salt of 4-methylaminophenol, not 4-aminophenol. It really isn't correct at all to say that metol 'contains' aminophenol just because the chemical unit is there. That methyl group makes a big difference.
The only commercial developer I know of that contains 4-aminophenol is Rodinal.
Jordan
Michael A. Covington - 02 Nov 2004 16:45 GMT >> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) : >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The only commercial developer I know of that contains 4-aminophenol is > Rodinal. Good catch! And my vague recollection - which someone should look up to confirm - is that metol is considerably the less toxic of the two. Allergies to metol are common on the part of people who handle prints in the developer with their hands. This fact tells me that there's nothing *else* very dangerous about metol, because if people are (against recommendations) coming into contact with enough of it to provoke an allergic reaction, they're still not suffering other ill effects that we know of.
Robert Vervoordt - 03 Nov 2004 09:29 GMT >>> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) : >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >coming into contact with enough of it to provoke an allergic reaction, >they're still not suffering other ill effects that we know of. When I had my first job in a custom darkroom, I got a LOT of exposure to Metol. I had my hands in all the developers and had the job of mixing all the new batches, as well as disposing the old. I eventually broke out in rashes that were most severe on my hands, thenn tapering off up my arms onto my shoulders and chest. When I finally went to an MD for diagnosis and treatment, he determined, somehow, that I no longer was sensitive to Metol; it had somehow burned out. What I was left with was a sensitivity to my own sweat, which accompanied the Metol, in lower concentraions. I left the job, and sure enough, the rashes subsided, but the small red bumps stayed for almost 3 years. These were determined to be some of my sweat sites that persisted and only gradually abated in their reactivity.
There were no other symptoms, that anyone could find.
Gloves and tongs are your friends.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
John - 03 Nov 2004 06:28 GMT >As others have already mentioned, the quantity of the chemical that >might have been absorbed by the system is likey to be very small. In the extreme.
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.puresilver.org Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Lloyd Erlick-Usenet - 04 Nov 2004 16:36 GMT >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >-Jason nov404 from Lloyd Erlick,
What you 'did' was not stupid. Many people over a very long time have exposed their fingers to ordinary darkroom chemicals with no consequences. For many, many years commonly available ordinary darkroom chemicals have been close to innocuous. Even drinking them would not be likely to cause death. Skin exposure is a minor danger, hardly meriting the word.
However, chemical skin exposure is also completely unnecessary in the darkroom.
I use the single-tray method of print making, and find that my bare skin (I find no need for gloves or even hand 'barrier' cream, which just gets on the negs and enlarger...) never gets a drop of solution. In fact, I think with a small effort one could prevent one's hands from even getting wet. As long as the tray is rocked gently enough that no tiny splashes occur (tiny droplets sometimes go flying out, inevitably onto the hands), there should be no need to wash the hands in tap water. I've never experimented to see if this could be done, but I find my hands wet in general so seldom that I'm confident it's possible. It's just unnecessary.
In the past I used a lot of Rodinal, a liquid developer concentrate. I used a glass pipette to extract a certain amount for dilution. Of course, a pipette is basically a straw, and one day I was careless and got a big slug of Rodinal in my mouth. There was no possibility of swallowing! When one suggests that darkroom solutions wouldn't even be harmful if you drank them, it's purely theoretical. Actually getting a mouthful down would be close to impossible. It would require great effort and concentration, or perhaps felonious assault.
The Rodinal didn't burn my mouth either. I was surprised, given that it contains potassium hydroxide.
I have several articles on my website -- Non-acid processing, selenium toning, single-tray work, are all possibly helpful. Look in the table of contents, under 'technical'. www.heylloyd.com
I hope you're photographing your wife's pregnancy! I don't think she's at any risk from darkroom chemicals. Your child will be delighted to learn mother made those beautiful prints herself ...
regards, --le
 Signature ________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 04 Nov 2004 19:11 GMT > In the past I used a lot of Rodinal, a liquid developer > concentrate. I used a glass pipette to extract a > certain amount for dilution. Of course, a pipette is > basically a straw, and one day I was careless and got a > big slug of Rodinal in my mouth. Always put a plug of cotton wool into the mouth end of a pipette.
'Transfer pipettes' are the thing to use when precision (~5%) is not an issue. $20-30 for a box of 500.
http://www.coleparmer.com/
and many others.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
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