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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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B/W Photo Processing Dangerous or Harmful with Pregnancy?

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Jason - 29 Oct 2004 16:25 GMT
Hello,

My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant.  We're worried
something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to
school developing photos in a B/W lab.

Here's the gist of what happened:  We've traced the conception date to
10/14.  We found out today, which is 10/29.  Her last visit to the
dark room was on the 24th, ~9 or 10 days after conception.  Within
those ~10 days, she went to the dark room 4 times spending a total of
~8 hours in it.  She did not use gloves and touched the solution with
her bare fingers.  Quickly after touching the solution, she washed her
hands with water, no soap was used.  Before the conception date, she's
spent the last 6 weeks in the dark room, maybe once or twice a week.

I already know how stupid we are for doing what we did, so please do
not lecture me on that.  I would really like to know if we did any
harm to the baby and if there is anything we can do now besides pray.
Thank you for your help.

-Jason
Bob Salomon - 29 Oct 2004 16:29 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -Jason

Why wouldn't you ask her doctor?

Signature

To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

LR Kalajainen - 29 Oct 2004 17:15 GMT
I'm not sure most ob/gyn's would know the toxicity of common photo
chemicals.  Probably better to call the manufacturer of the chemical and
ask what the constituents of each solution (developer, fixer, etc.) are
if there is no list of ingredients on the label.  Then do a Google
search on the individual chemicals; this will turn up at least one or
more websites where toxicity descriptions of various chemicals are
located.  Many of those descriptions will say whether the chemical can
be absorbed through the skin and the degree of toxicity incurred.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is that, depending on what chemicals
your wife was using, she was probably more at risk from fumes than from
touching the solutions.   Most darkroom chemicals are fairly harmless,
though there are some that are definitely toxic.  That's why you're
right not to take the risk of not knowing.   But it is important to
identify the specific chemicals so you can  get accurate information.

>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Why wouldn't you ask her doctor?
Donald Qualls - 29 Oct 2004 18:14 GMT
> Hello,
>
> My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant.  We're worried
> something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to
> school developing photos in a B/W lab.

Unless she was selenium toning with skin contact or bathing her hands in
developer for prolonged periods, it's unlikely you've done any harm.
There are many professions for which the practitioners pay with
shortened lifespans -- chemists, for instance, have a high incidence of
cancer and organ failures due to solvents used in their work, as do
painters and auto body workers.  Photographers have show no such effect,
even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.

There are some people who become sensitized to certain chemicals --
metol, aka Elon, is one, various aldehydes used in non-metal gelatin
hardeners are another (glutaraldehyde is the most common, but it's used
mainly in X-ray processing to protect emulsion at very high process
temperatures needed for rapid results).  Pyrogallol is toxic, but not
significantly more so than many other chemicals we use regularly,
including permanent hair dyes.  Color developers, bleach, and especially
stabilizer are others for which skin contact should be avoided.

Of these, AFAIK only pyrogallol and metol are known to have significant
skin contact risks, and pyrogallol is rarely if ever used in instruction
for photography; most likely the developer she was using for printing
was Dektol or similar containing metol and hydroquinone.  If she doesn't
have a relatively immediate reaction, she's not sensitive, and it's my
understanding metol isn't signifcantly absorbed through the skin.
Developers also typically contains a good bit of sodium sulfite as a
preservative and silver solvent.

Stop bath isn't anything to worry about -- acetic acid, same as vinegar;
if you have a variety without indicator dye, you could drink it without
harm.

Fixer has sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite as
a preservative (sodium sulfite is also used as a food additive), sodium
metabisulfite (another food additive), and acetic acid (vinegar again).
 Sodium thiosulfate is the specific antidote for cyanide poisoning; it
isn't a recommended dietary supplement, but isn't significantly toxic.
The biggest hazard from fixer is sulfur dioxide evolved from a reaction
of the thiosulfate with acid, and this is in very low concentrations.

Used developer and fixer both contained dissolved silver compounds and
complexes, but these aren't normally a skin absorption hazard.

Overall, I'd be surprised if there were a problem -- there's a much
bigger risk if she had a few glasses of wine or beer in the last couple
weeks before learning of the conception, IMO.

Disclaimer: I'm neither a toxicity expert nor a physician -- everything
I've said here should be checked with someone who is qualified to verify
it.  Chemical names you'll want besides those above are phenidone,
dimezone, pyrocatechin, and p-aminophenol hydrochloride, benzotriazole,
potassium iodide, sodium perborate, sodium metaborate, sodium carbonate,
possibly sodium hydroxide if using Rodinal (these last four alkali
activators for developers), tetrasodium EDTA, Calgon, and similar
sequestrants and chelators.

To give some idea how harmless a developer *can* be, you can develop
film in coffee with sodium carbonate added...

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

John - 29 Oct 2004 19:16 GMT
>Photographers have show no such effect,
>even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.

    Including Ansel Adams who consistently dipped his hands in
chemicals for many years but there was no conclusive indication that
this had any effect on him.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Frank Pittel - 29 Oct 2004 19:48 GMT
: >Photographers have show no such effect,
: >even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.

:         Including Ansel Adams who consistently dipped his hands in
: chemicals for many years but there was no conclusive indication that
: this had any effect on him.

While I don't think most B&W chemistry is harmful I think it's best to
avoid drinking it or coming into direct contact with it. I still remember
when working on cars and lawnmowers we used to wash our hands with leaded
gasoline. In jr. high school we used asbestos gloves and boards when dealing
with alcohol lamps.

If the OP is concerned he may want to go to Kodak's website and download
the MSDSs of the chemistry his wife came into contact with.

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Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
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John - 30 Oct 2004 05:21 GMT
>: >Photographers have show no such effect,
>: >even those who spend literally decades in daily darkroom work.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>While I don't think most B&W chemistry is harmful ...

    I'll just add that most commercially available formulas are
what is left after the many decades of getting rid of known-toxic
agents like pyrogallol, PPD and mercuric chloride. Anything left is
relatively innocuous when used for it's intended purpose and following
the (usually extremely cautious) instructions.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
John - 29 Oct 2004 19:13 GMT
>She did not use gloves and touched the solution with
>her bare fingers.

    GASP !!!!! GADZOOKS !!!!! LAWDY LAWDY !!!!! HOW COULD YOU ....
!!!

    (:>)

> Quickly after touching the solution, she washed her
>hands with water, no soap was used.  Before the conception date, she's
>spent the last 6 weeks in the dark room, maybe once or twice a week.
>
>I already know how stupid we are for doing what we did, so please do
>not lecture me on that.

    No but what I would lecture you on is completely over-reacting
to the folklore about darkroom chemistry. The fact is that your wife
would be at the same or greater risk if she uses laundry detergent,
bleach, dandruff shampoo, perfume, air freshener, drinks coffee or tea
or is otherwise exposed to the many other numerous commonly used
chemical concoctions around the average household.

    FYI, most developers are not easily absorbed through the skin.
Most developing agents are relatively benign and in fact some have
medicinal uses. Stop bath is simply an acidic solution usually
comprised of acetic acid (think vinegar) and water. Fixer is simply
ammonium thiosulfate which is not known to be toxic when used
accordingly.

    That said, if she should drink a cocktail of the above
solutions she may indeed suffer severe cramps which could
theoretically induce an abortion. Given that this isn't likely I would
just recommend that she make sure there is adequate ventilation and
that she take plenty of breaks to prevent varicose veins and other
problems.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Michael A. Covington - 29 Oct 2004 22:19 GMT
This question is asked frequently.  I have never seen, from any
authoritative source, any warnings about hazards to pregnant women from
black-and-white darkroom chemistry.  Material safety data sheets are
available for all the materials; you can read them if you're curious.  The
bottom line is that nothing in ordinary black-and-white work is very
dangerous.
jjs - 29 Oct 2004 19:39 GMT
> Hello,
>
> My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant.  We're worried
> something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to
> school developing photos in a B/W lab.

The most likely consequence of this case will be the baby's exposure will be
to his/her father's alarmist presumptions. You are advised to consult a
professional, not Usenet (for God's sake) for answers, and possible
treatment for your anxiety lest you infect the child.
John - 30 Oct 2004 05:28 GMT
>> My wife and I recently found out she is pregnant.  We're worried
>> something may have happened to our baby because she has been going to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>professional, not Usenet (for God's sake) for answers, and possible
>treatment for your anxiety lest you infect the child.

    By John you've hit the nail on the head ! The wife is fine but
the husband is suffering from Post-Exposure Anxiety Syndrome !! (aka
PEAS)

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
C. Falise - 29 Oct 2004 21:02 GMT
i wouldn't worry about it jason-
it's nice to see your concern for both your wife and future child.
all sarcasm aside, she would probably have to soak in a bath of fixer for a
week before any problems would arise if they did at all.  i have known
several professional women photographers and they all continued darkroom
work during their pregnancies with no problems (at least not due to their
work...)
one poster's advice is best - good ventilation, frequent breaks (vericose
veins, ciculation etc).  also if she is really worried, there are these
things called tongs that many use to fish their prints out of chemical
baths!
:)
good luck with your family-
-c.

> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -Jason
Gregory W Blank - 29 Oct 2004 21:34 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -Jason

 The question is: is there any reason to believe something  
bad has happened already to the baby at this time? A more important question
is does she consume alcohol and smoke cigarettes? A simple blood test
might confirm if any chemistry was absorbed into her blood stream, my
uneducated guess is no and your worries are more than likely just that.
& Needless of course I am not an expert in prenatle care nor do I pretend or intend to
be all opinions expressed are my own and consequently bear no responsiblity
for misuse or misunderstanding of their content. (Standard disclaimer in this context)
Seek a doctors help in the event such side effects from reading these contents produces
nervousness or shortness of breath.

Got enough money for college and diapers?
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Uranium Committee - 30 Oct 2004 00:37 GMT
The amount of chemical absorbed through the skin is minute. I would not worry.

> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -Jason
Richard Knoppow - 30 Oct 2004 19:11 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> -Jason

  Here is what Kodak has on their web site:

Working With Photoprocessing Chemicals During Pregnancy

We are frequently asked about the potential hazards of
working with photographic processing chemicals during
pregnancy and if this presents a health concern for the
mother or fetus. We are aware of no substantiated reports of
adverse reproductive effects among people working with KODAK
photoprocessing products.

All users are encouraged to follow the handling instructions
on the product labels and material safety data sheets (MSDS)
and abide by applicable country-specific regulations
concerning potential occupational exposures during
pregnancy. In addition, if you are pregnant, you should also
provide your physician with this information. A general
recommendation is to minimize skin, eye, and inhalation
exposure by using good industrial hygiene practices. These
include the use of gloves or tongs (for use in tray
processing), goggles or other eye protection, rubber aprons
or other suitable protective clothing, and working in a
well-ventilated area. Unless otherwise stated on the MSDS,
good industrial strength neoprene rubber or nitrile gloves
should be used whenever there is a potential for skin
contact.

There are no chemicals in any Kodak photoprocessing product
associated with adverse reproductive effects in humans.
There are a limited number of Kodak photochemical products
that contain a minor component that has been associated with
reproductive toxicity in animals through feeding studies.
Ingestion, the route of exposure in these laboratory
studies, is not an expected route of exposure for humans
working with these photoprocessing chemicals. For these
products, information regarding the potential health
hazards, in addition to safe handling guidelines, can be
found on the product label and Material Safety Data Sheets
(MSDSs). There is no evidence that any component of or
emission from a Kodak photoprocessing chemical can cause
reproductive effects in animals or humans by skin contact or
through inhalation.

Typical airborne emissions from Kodak photographic
processing solutions can include irritating gasses such as
sulfur dioxide, ammonia, and acetic acid. Since these
chemicals may have unpleasant odors, they can be detected at
low concentrations in the air. The ability to detect a
chemical by odor does not mean that it is present at a
concentration that will cause an adverse health effect.
However, if room ventilation is not adequate, the vapors may
cause transient headache, nausea, or eye, nose, and throat
irritation. Typically, the symptoms will clear when the
person is away from the exposure for a day or two and
reappear when the person is again exposed.

To speak with a Kodak toxicologist about this issue or any
other health issue related to a Kodak product or process,
please contact KES.

 KES is Kodak Envirionmental Services. They can be
contacted at:

http://www.kodak.com/cgi-bin/webGenericSurvey.cgi

Or, if you are in the US you can call customer service at 1
800 242 2424

  B&W chemistry has very low toxicity when at working
strength. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

PATRICK GAINER - 31 Oct 2004 01:49 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
>
>  

My wife and I were both photo nuts since before we were married. We both
developed film and prints in our kitchen before we had a darkroom and
after. We had six children with no miscarriages or birth defects. All
were above average intelligence and physically strong. Just don't drink
the stuff.

Nowadays you can develop film and paper in solutions of vitamin C,
laundry detergent and a minute amount of phenidone and get very good
results. Some toners are toxic, but they will not jump out and grab you.
You can do the dangerous stuff and your wife can do anything else.
sreenath - 02 Nov 2004 13:02 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> -Jason

From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :

"Possible mutagen and teratogen"

"A teratogen is an agent that can cause malformations of an embryo or
fetus"

Metol and a few other very commonly used developing agent contains
Aminophenol.
If you happen to consult a doctor, please mention this.

As others have already mentioned, the quantity of the chemical that
might have been absorbed by the system is likey to be very small.

-Sreenath
Michael A. Covington - 02 Nov 2004 14:35 GMT
> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> -Sreenath

Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible"
teratogen.

Normally, we do not get any of this stuff into our bodies at all.  It is a
water-soluble compound that is not readily absorbed through the skin.  Did
she drink the developer?

Of course the doctor will say to avoid possible teratogens.  The real
question is how much of it is needed to produce an observable teratogenic
effect.  Probably a gigantic amount, considering that they listed it as only
"possible."  This would imply that large doses of it were fed to rats in an
experiment, and even then, the results were unclear.
John - 03 Nov 2004 06:31 GMT
>Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible"
>teratogen.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"possible."  This would imply that large doses of it were fed to rats in an
>experiment, and even then, the results were unclear.

    Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and
find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used
as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now
that's a dose !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Michael A. Covington - 03 Nov 2004 23:49 GMT
>>Yes, but remember, "the dose makes the poison" and it is only a "possible"
>>teratogen.
>>
>>Normally, we do not get any of this stuff into our bodies at all.  It is a
>>water-soluble compound that is not readily absorbed through the skin.  Did
>>she drink the developer?
...

> Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and
> find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used
> as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now
> that's a dose !

Yes, and pyrogallol does NOT count as conventional black-and-white
processing chemistry any time since maybe half a century ago!  I thought we
were talking about an MQ developer.
John - 04 Nov 2004 08:15 GMT
>> Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and
>> find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>processing chemistry any time since maybe half a century ago!  I thought we
>were talking about an MQ developer.

    We are. I was just trying to point out how even one of the
more toxic agents requires virtually complete submersion to cause
critical system failure.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
   Next time vote "No! for the status quo and vote 3rd party !!
Gregory W Blank - 04 Nov 2004 04:16 GMT
>     Do you have a copy of Merc ? You can look up pyrogallol and
> find that people have died from exposure to it. Evidently it was used
> as a dye and people submerged their arms into hot vats of pyro. Now
> that's a dose !

The people that died fell into the vat.
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

John - 04 Nov 2004 08:16 GMT
>The people that died fell into the vat.

    That's what I thought. Unfortunately I don't have the Merc
available anymore. My friend the chemist decided he needed it.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
   Next time vote "No! for the status quo and vote 3rd party !!
Jordan Wosnick - 02 Nov 2004 15:19 GMT
> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Aminophenol.
> If you happen to consult a doctor, please mention this.

Without commenting on the toxicities of metol and p-aminophenol,
it's important to note that metol is a salt of
4-methylaminophenol, not 4-aminophenol. It really isn't correct
at all to say that metol 'contains' aminophenol just because the
chemical unit is there. That methyl group makes a big difference.

The only commercial developer I know of that contains
4-aminophenol is Rodinal.

Jordan
Michael A. Covington - 02 Nov 2004 16:45 GMT
>> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The only commercial developer I know of that contains 4-aminophenol is
> Rodinal.

Good catch!  And my vague recollection - which someone should look up to
confirm - is that metol is considerably the less toxic of the two.
Allergies to metol are common on the part of people who handle prints in the
developer with their hands.  This fact tells me that there's nothing *else*
very dangerous about metol, because if people are (against recommendations)
coming into contact with enough of it to provoke an allergic reaction,
they're still not suffering other ill effects that we know of.
Robert Vervoordt - 03 Nov 2004 09:29 GMT
>>> From MSDS of 4-Aminophenol(p-aminophenol, para aminophenol) :
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>coming into contact with enough of it to provoke an allergic reaction,
>they're still not suffering other ill effects that we know of.

When I had my first job in a custom darkroom, I got a LOT of exposure
to Metol.  I had my hands in all the developers and had the job of
mixing all the new batches, as well as disposing the old.  I
eventually broke out in rashes that were most severe on my hands,
thenn tapering off up my arms onto my shoulders and chest.  When I
finally went to an MD for diagnosis and treatment, he determined,
somehow, that I no longer was sensitive to Metol; it had somehow
burned out.  What I was left with was a sensitivity to my own sweat,
which accompanied the Metol, in lower concentraions.  I left the job,
and sure enough, the rashes subsided, but the small red bumps stayed
for almost 3 years.  These were determined to be some of my sweat
sites that persisted and only gradually abated in their reactivity.

There were no other symptoms, that anyone could find.  

Gloves and tongs are your friends.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
John - 03 Nov 2004 06:28 GMT
>As others have already mentioned, the quantity of the chemical that
>might have been absorbed by the system is likey to be very small.

    In the extreme.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Lloyd Erlick-Usenet - 04 Nov 2004 16:36 GMT
>Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>-Jason

nov404 from Lloyd Erlick,

What you 'did' was not stupid. Many people over a very
long time have exposed their fingers to ordinary
darkroom chemicals with no consequences. For many, many
years commonly available ordinary darkroom chemicals
have been close to innocuous. Even drinking them would
not be likely to cause death. Skin exposure is a minor
danger, hardly meriting the word.

However, chemical skin exposure is also completely
unnecessary in the darkroom.

I use the single-tray method of print making, and find
that my bare skin (I find no need for gloves or even
hand 'barrier' cream, which just gets on the negs and
enlarger...) never gets a drop of solution. In fact, I
think with a small effort one could prevent one's hands
from even getting wet. As long as the tray is rocked
gently enough that no tiny splashes occur (tiny
droplets sometimes go flying out, inevitably onto the
hands), there should be no need to wash the hands in
tap water. I've never experimented to see if this could
be done, but I find my hands wet in general so seldom
that I'm confident it's possible. It's just
unnecessary.

In the past I used a lot of Rodinal, a liquid developer
concentrate. I used a glass pipette to extract a
certain amount for dilution. Of course, a pipette is
basically a straw, and one day I was careless and got a
big slug of Rodinal in my mouth. There was no
possibility of swallowing! When one suggests that
darkroom solutions wouldn't even be harmful if you
drank them, it's purely theoretical. Actually getting a
mouthful down would be close to impossible. It would
require great effort and concentration, or perhaps
felonious assault.

The Rodinal didn't burn my mouth either. I was
surprised, given that it contains potassium hydroxide.

I have several articles on my website -- Non-acid
processing, selenium toning, single-tray work, are all
possibly helpful. Look in the table of contents, under
'technical'. www.heylloyd.com

I hope you're photographing your wife's pregnancy! I
don't think she's at any risk from darkroom chemicals.
Your child will be delighted to learn mother made those
beautiful prints herself ...

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Nicholas O. Lindan - 04 Nov 2004 19:11 GMT
> In the past I used a lot of Rodinal, a liquid developer
> concentrate. I used a glass pipette to extract a
> certain amount for dilution. Of course, a pipette is
> basically a straw, and one day I was careless and got a
> big slug of Rodinal in my mouth.

Always put a plug of cotton wool into the mouth end of
a pipette.

'Transfer pipettes' are the thing to use when precision (~5%)
is not an issue.  $20-30 for a box of 500.

http://www.coleparmer.com/

and many others.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

 
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