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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Greetings, plus some questions (long)

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Dieter Zakas - 29 Oct 2004 06:00 GMT
Hi, group!

I have some darkroom-related questions for which I seek answers. First,
though, some background.

Photography is a hobby of mine (I'm an advanced amateur), and until fairly
recently, was heavily slanted toward slides. Now, it's swung the other way
to B&W photography, but this was chiefly out of practicality: to use up the
remaining film stock.

Back in my college days, in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I took a darkroom
photography course in which we learned to develop B&W film and print it. (My
parents once talked about building a darkroom in the basement of the house
they'd then bought, in the early 1970s, though nothing came of it.)
Interestingly, I still have most of my developing equipment I bought for the
course, except for maybe the thermometer...which is likely still at my
mother's house.

Anyway, I recently dropped off a roll ofT-Max 400 at the local camera store
for processing, and the fellow working there wondered if they had that
developer. While they didn't have it in stock, his wondering planted the
seed of my developing my own film (no printing because I live in a
one-bedroom apartment, and there is no separate space for a darkroom) at
home. After all, I reasoned, I had an introduction, and I also have the
tools.

So I looked at B&H's website for the developer, stop bath and fixer, and
found all three by Kodak. (My reasoning is that for all practical purposes,
I'm "just getting started," so I'll stick with the film manufacturer's
recommendations as a starting point.) I also found them at another area
camera shop owned by the first one.

So, with that out of the way, here are my questions:

(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
I would use those.)

(3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
part mean?

(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
adjust the times accordingly?

That's all for now; I'm sure I'll probably think of others in the meantime.

TIA

Dieter Zakas
Tom Phillips - 29 Oct 2004 07:25 GMT
snip

> Anyway, I recently dropped off a roll ofT-Max 400 at the local camera store
> for processing, and the fellow working there wondered if they had that
> developer.

T-max, like any other film, can be developed in any number
of developers with excellant results. When you say "had that
developer" you don't say what developer. Any lab or minilab
that does b&w can process Tmax...

> While they didn't have it in stock, his wondering planted the
> seed of my developing my own film (no printing because I live in a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
> I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Film processing temperature is critical. Storage temperature
less so but the cooler the better. When mixing developer, mix
only what you need and use immediately. Packaged chemicals or
concentrate liquids will keep for a couple of years at room
temperatures. Temperature consistency for all mixed processing
solutions is important. Standard processing temp is between
68 and 75 degrees F.

> (2) Once mixed,

What are you talking about? Film developer, fixer, stop bath? Temp
should not affect the latter two (within reason.) Developer tends
to oxidize quickly when mixed so again you only mix what you use
_immediately_.

> would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
> that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
> etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

Times are stated on the packaging. Stop 1 minute. Fix T-max in
Rapid fix for 5-6 minutes. Developer times vary with the developer
and contrast desired and probably best to follow the instructions
on the package.

> (4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
> part mean?

It turns purple when exhausted.

> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
> which is vinegar.

Vinegar is 5% acidity.

> This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
> distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
> adjust the times accordingly?

One could use distilled vinegar. For 28%, dilute it, again following
the package instructions.

> That's all for now; I'm sure I'll probably think of others in the meantime.
>
> TIA
>
> Dieter Zakas
Laura Halliday - 30 Oct 2004 19:54 GMT
> snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to oxidize quickly when mixed so again you only mix what you use
> _immediately_.

This is why liquid concentrates are so handy.
You have no choice but to mix up the entire
package of powder, but even HC-110, thick and
gloppy though it is, is no problem with an oral
medicine syringe.

I use water stop bath on film, BTW. I tried an
acid stop and found the film sometimes reacted badly.
So I stopped. Paper seems to need the acid stop,
though...

When I told one of the local camera stores I wanted
to have a go at doing my own they pointed me to
Ilford HP5 film and Ilfosol S developer. If you
can mess *that* combination up, you are genuinely
talented.

This was only after reading an introductory book
on film processing/darkroom technique. The internet
is not a substitute for a solid grounding in the
basics.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH     "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg                    pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W        - Hospital/Shafte
Dieter Zakas - 31 Oct 2004 01:05 GMT
[ snip ]

> This was only after reading an introductory book
> on film processing/darkroom technique. The internet
> is not a substitute for a solid grounding in the
> basics.

If by "a solid grounding in the basics," you mean actually having done it,
then yes, I have. I mentioned in my original post I'd taken a darkroom
photography course in college, and that I still had most of my equipment,
including the text used for the course.

Dieter Zakas
Lloyd Erlick-Usenet - 03 Nov 2004 17:53 GMT
...
>I use water stop bath on film, BTW. I tried an
>acid stop and found the film sometimes reacted badly.
>So I stopped.

Paper seems to need the acid stop,
>though...
...

nov304 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've found FB paper is perfectly simple to do with no
acid at all in the process. The non-acid approach has
several advantages for me. The disadvantages are easily
overcome.

My pontifications on this subject are available under
the 'technical' heading in the table of contents on
www.heylloyd.com

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Lloyd Erlick-Usenet - 03 Nov 2004 17:54 GMT
...
>I use water stop bath on film, BTW. I tried an
>acid stop and found the film sometimes reacted badly.
>So I stopped.

Paper seems to need the acid stop,
>though...
...

nov304 from Lloyd Erlick,

I've found FB paper is perfectly simple to do with no
acid at all in the process. The non-acid approach has
several advantages for me. The disadvantages are easily
overcome.

My pontifications on this subject are available under
the 'technical' heading in the table of contents on
www.heylloyd.com

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Lloyd Erlick-Usenet - 03 Nov 2004 17:55 GMT
sorry for double post ...

--le
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 29 Oct 2004 08:36 GMT
> (1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
> temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
> tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
> I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

How much are you talking about? 5 degrees F, 30 degrees F. Assuming that your
apartment is reasonably heated there won't be a problem. If you turn off
the heat during the day and the apartment goes down to 50F you will have
a problem if you turn the heat on in the evening and bring it up to 70F.

> (2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
> that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
> chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
> term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
> shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
> I would use those.)

Not really 68F (20c) is the best storage temperature. Avoid the dark brown
plastic containers. Use glass ones with good stopers or screw on lids.
Keeping them in the dark is more important than the color of the bottles, but
make sure they cannot be confused with food or drink.

> (3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
> out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
> Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
> etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

It depends upon which fixer you use, and how you dilute it. Kodak's chemistry
may not be right for you, look at what else is available, I prefer liquid
chemicals which I dilute before use and throw away.

> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
> distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
> adjust the times accordingly?

Yes, but the vinegar would be expensive. Note that glacial (99%) acetic acid
freezes around 60F, so you want to dilute it to 28% right away, or just buy
the 28%. Ilford uses a different acid (I think it is citric) in it's stop
bath and does not have the vinegar smell.

The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.

One easy way to do it is to fill a gallon jug with 75F water. Use it to make
up the developer from conentrate. Start development, wash out the mixing
cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug for the stop bath.

Again wash out the cylinder with hot water, and use more water from the jug
to make the fixer (although fixer will last almost forever in a tightly
closed glass bottle).

Fill the tank with water from the jug and agiatate gently for a minute.
Empty and repeat. Rinse film in hypo clearing or another wash agent.
Wash film for 5 minutes in gently flowing cold tap water.

Drain tank refill from from tap and add a few drops of photo-flow.
Empty tank, remove film from reel and dry.

This method is releatively expensive as you don't get repeat useage of
chemistry, but it is consitent and works well with small amounts of film.

Hint, if you do it this way, the stop bath can be reused for paper and
the fixer diluted with equal parts of water and also used for paper.

If you want to develop more than one roll of film in a week, consider
buying a multi reel tank and doing them all at once. Note that some
developers need a minumum ammount per roll of film, especialy at high
dilutions.

As for developers, Rodinal is a good start for low speed (under 200)
film. It lasts forever in a tightly closed bottle away from light
and cold will help it last if you are planing on leaving some to your
grandchildren :-) You use it at 1:50 or 1:100 dilution, so a small bottle
goes a long way.

I've always been a fan of Edwal FG-7, which produces good negatives from
almost anything, is used at 1:15 dilution and works from about 60f to 90f
with a simple change in time. Unfortuantely it is no longer available in
Israel. :-(

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, C.T.O. GW&T Ltd., Jerusalem Israel
gsm@mendelson.com gsm@gwandt.com
IL Voice: 972-544-608-069  IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838

Gregory W Blank - 29 Oct 2004 13:15 GMT
> The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
> one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.

Reticulate :-)
Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Dieter Zakas - 29 Oct 2004 20:34 GMT
>> (1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
>> temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the heat during the day and the apartment goes down to 50F you will have
> a problem if you turn the heat on in the evening and bring it up to 70F.

I've seen as much as 30 deg. F, especially during the spring and fall.
During the summer, when I'm out running errands, I tend to leave the a/c on
a low setting to maintain the coolness of the apartment.

>> (2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
>> that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> may not be right for you, look at what else is available, I prefer liquid
> chemicals which I dilute before use and throw away.

The Kodak chemistry I cited is liquid concentrate for the stop bath and
developer, and powder fixer.

>> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
>> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the 28%. Ilford uses a different acid (I think it is citric) in it's stop
> bath and does not have the vinegar smell.

By definition, the stop bath was cited as 28% percent acetic acid - the same
stuff in regular vinegar, albeit a much-higher concentration - and I derived
my calculation from that.

Citiric acid in the stop bath? Nothng like negs with that "lemon fresh"
scent! :-)

IIRC, vinegar, especially white distilled, is relatively cheap when bought
by the gallon.

> The most important thing is never move film from a solution to a warmer
> one. That will cause the film to produce odd markings, I forget the name of.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Geoff.

Thanks for the suggestions, Geoff!

Dieter
Donald Qualls - 29 Oct 2004 11:01 GMT
> (1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
> temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
> tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
> I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Within reason, it's not a problem.  Cold is worse than hot for most
chemicals, but as long as the temperature stays in a range between about
60 F and 120 F there shouldn't be any problem with any common chemicals.

> (2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
> that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
> chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
> term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
> shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
> I would use those.)

It's generally not recommended to refrigerate photo chemicals because it
can cause precipitation of stuff that should be dissolved.  However, if
you have a dedicated fridge that can be adjusted to, say, 60 F, it would
be a fine place to store the chemicals -- with the proviso that it takes
an hour or more for the bottles to warm to room temperature even from 60 F.

> (3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
> out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
> Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
> etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

I like HC-110 developer, Indicator Stop Bath, and Ilford Rapid Fixer
(but there's no reason Kodak's rapid fixer product wouldn't work as
well; I have Ilford because it was a convenient size and decent price
when I shopped).

> (4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
> part mean?

The indicator stop bath contains an "indicator" dye that changes from
yellow, when the stop bath is fresh, to a blue-green color when the stop
bath is exhausted and loses its acidity.  This isn't necessary, but it's
convenient; it's reassuring to *know* your stop bath is good, but water
makes a perfectly fine stop bath as long as you're not dealing with 3.5
minute developer times.

> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
> distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
> adjust the times accordingly?

Yes, you can buy white vinegar (5% acidity is standard) and dilute it
1:1 with water to make a perfectly fine stop bath, but Kodak Indicator
Stop Bath is actually cheaper than $1.50 per gallon for vinegar -- that
is, you get more gallons of working strength stop bath for your dollar
with the Kodak product than with the cheapest white vinegar on the
market, and Kodak includes the indicator dye to let you know when to
replace the stop bath.

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Michael A. Covington - 29 Oct 2004 14:33 GMT
Time to read a good book on the subject, such as "The Negative," by Ansel
Adams...
Ken Hart - 30 Oct 2004 05:32 GMT
> Hi, group!
>
> I have some darkroom-related questions for which I seek answers. First,
> though, some background.
various snips

> (1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
> temperature fluctuations? My apartment, because its windows face south,
> tends to warm up during the day, and cool down appreciably as night falls.
> I'm talking about the chemicals' storage in a liquid state, prior to use.

Developer likes no oxygen; most chems like cool storage. Got space on the
closet floor?

> (2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
> that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
> chemistry)? Surely keeping them cold, or cool, would be better in the long
> term because they're not subjected to wide temperature swings. (One camera
> shop I've patronized sells empty dark-brown containers for mixed chems, and
> I would use those.)

Some chems will get cloudy in cold temps. Additionally, you would have to
warm them up for use.

> (3) As I indicated, because I am, for all practical purposes, "just starting
> out," so I'd stick with Kodak's development chemistry to keep things simple.
> Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
> etc.? While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

Dektol for prints, D-76 for film are the old standbys.

> (4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
> part mean?

As it gets contaminated with developer, it turns purple.

> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
> distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
> adjust the times accordingly?

Strong stop bath can damage film. Stop bath is often optional; a water bath
can be substituted.

Ken Hart
Michael A. Covington - 30 Oct 2004 07:06 GMT
>> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
>> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
>> distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
>> adjust the times accordingly?

1 part distilled vinegar to 4 parts water is about right.  Stop bath is
merely a rinse, not a processing step, and the time does not matter as long
as it's sufficient to wash all the developer off the film.  A plain water
rinse works fine -- you do not need acetic acid at all.
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 02:04 GMT
> >> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
> >> which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> as it's sufficient to wash all the developer off the film.  A plain water
> rinse works fine -- you do not need acetic acid at all.

Stop is not "just a rinse." It neutralizes developer alkalinity
which does 2 things: stops developer activity and prevents
alkaline carry over to the fixer. This is a chemical "step," not
a rinse.
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 11:48 GMT
>>>>(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
>>>>which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> alkaline carry over to the fixer. This is a chemical "step," not
> a rinse.

None the less, dilution works as well as an acid stop, if slower.  It's
important to wash with several changes of water in that case, however,
to minimizer carry over (unless you use your fixer one-shot, then you
don't care).  If you do it the same every time, it doesn't matter that
it takes longer to stop; in fact, it might have the effect of helping
the shadows a little, since the dilution will cause exhaustion in
highlights before the developer is completely diluted out of the shadow
areas.

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

John - 01 Nov 2004 07:37 GMT
>So, with that out of the way, here are my questions:
>
>(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
>temperature fluctuations?

    A plus/minus 10 degree fluctuation is within reason.

>(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
>that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
>chemistry)?

    It's not necessary. Pour the mixed developer into smaller
bottles (I use 250ml for stock that will be diluted 1:3).

>(3) Does anyone have any "favorites" among these, any tips they'd like to share,
>etc.?

    Kodak T-Max RS is about the best developer they make.

> While I'm at it, what are the times for the stop bath and fixer?

    RTFM - Read The Fine Manual

    Stop - 30 seconds
    Fix - 3~5 minutes.

>(4) I see Kodak offers an "indicator stop bath." What does the "indicator"
>part mean?

    It means it turns color when the pH shifts above a certain
point. Developers generally only work in alkaline environments. If a
stop bath is used to the point it turns alkaline it will not arrest
the development.

>(5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic acid,
>which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the white
>distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that, provided I
>adjust the times accordingly?

    Yes.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Tom Phillips - 01 Nov 2004 21:31 GMT
> >So, with that out of the way, here are my questions:
> >
> >(1) Just how significantly are the chemicals, once mixed, affected by
> >temperature fluctuations?
>
>         A plus/minus 10 degree fluctuation is within reason.

But not from one to the other...

> >(2) Once mixed, would they benefit from storage in a refrigerator bought for
> >that purpose (a small model, big enough to hold three gallon-size jugs of
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>         RTFM - Read The Fine Manual

A new acronym?

>         Stop - 30 seconds
>         Fix - 3~5 minutes.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
>         Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
John - 01 Nov 2004 22:14 GMT
>>         A plus/minus 10 degree fluctuation is within reason.
>
>But not from one to the other...

    IMO, that wouldn't be that big of a deal either. Not likely
unless he has really bad insulation though.

>>         RTFM - Read The Fine Manual
>
>A new acronym?

    Always look on the bright side of life !

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
       Vote "No! for the status quo. Vote 3rd party !!
Tom Phillips - 02 Nov 2004 01:14 GMT
> >>         A plus/minus 10 degree fluctuation is within reason.
> >
> >But not from one to the other...
>
>         IMO, that wouldn't be that big of a deal either. Not likely
> unless he has really bad insulation though.

hmmm...I think we're talking different planets.

I meant a 10 degree flunctuation from one solution
to another (reticulation), as opposed to all the
solutions having the same temperature (which is
what I thought you were saying.)

Slap me silly, it's that digital thread and I'm going
insane. My darkrom ambient temp never varies more than
about 10F summer (70) to winter (60.) No insulation.
If I need heat, I turn on the dry mount press...

> >>         RTFM - Read The Fine Manual
> >
> >A new acronym?
>
>         Always look on the bright side of life !

O.K. but then you also always have to qualify it when
you use it :-)
Donald Qualls - 01 Nov 2004 14:41 GMT
> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic
> acid, which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the
> white distilled vinegar found in supermarkets, so could I use that,
> provided I adjust the times accordingly?

Just to clarify this -- when you use the Kodak Stop Bath or Indicator Stop
Bath, you'll be diluting it, IIRC, 1:10 from the concentrate in the bottle,
which gives (seemingly) around 2.6% acidity, the same as diluting vinegar
(which is standardized to 5% acidity) 1:1, near enough.  In fact, if you
use vinegar, which has no indicator to tell you when it's exhausted, the
simplest way is to dilute it 1:1 with water (gives you 2.5% aciditiy), and
use it one-shot -- discard after one use on film or one session on paper.  
Used that way, vinegar is substantially more expensive than Indicator Stop
Bath, which can be reused until it starts to change color.  I've got a two-
liter bottle of working solution that's done a couple dozen rolls of film
and shows no sign of changing color yet; it's already cheaper than vinegar
used one-shot (the only reliable way to use a stop bath with no indicator)
and probably hasn't passed 50% of its working life.

OTOH, with 1:1 dilution, vinegar should cost you about a nickel per roll of
35 mm, so it's not a big deal either way...

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                        -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Dieter Zakas - 01 Nov 2004 20:00 GMT
>> (5) Kodak's stop bath (catalog number 1462829) shows as 28% acetic
>> acid, which is vinegar. This is about 5 1/2 times stronger than the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> OTOH, with 1:1 dilution, vinegar should cost you about a nickel per roll of
> 35 mm, so it's not a big deal either way...

This was my thought in terms of "economizing," as I could buy a large
quantity of vinegar at, say, Costco, which I would/could also use for
cooking and other household use like cleaning, and set some aside for film
development...and no, I wouldn't use the spent vinegar as salad dressing
either. :-)

Dieter Zakas
Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Nov 2004 21:41 GMT
> Used that way, vinegar is substantially more expensive than Indicator Stop
> Bath, which can be reused until it starts to change color.

Hmmm.  There is no reason one can't add one's own pinch of indicator to
diluted vinegar:

o Kodak uses Bromocresol Purple (BCP).
o Sergeant-Welch sells BCP for $8/gm. (watch out, there is medical grade for
>$$$)
o Indicator solution is 0.1% BCP in alcohol.
o 1 gm makes 10 l of indicator.
o ~.5ml indicator per liter of stop bath.
o 20,000 shots of indicator for $8.00 => 0.04 cents per litre of SB
 for the indicator.

The cheapest SB I have found is glacial acetic acid,
dilute it to 28% stock and then to working strength.

I don't bother with the BCP, I change the SB when I change the fix,
but maybe I should start.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
John - 01 Nov 2004 22:15 GMT
>The cheapest SB I have found is glacial acetic acid,
>dilute it to 28% stock and then to working strength.

    Hmmm, does it work well with olive oil ?

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 00:02 GMT
> Hmmm.  There is no reason one can't add one's own pinch of indicator to
> diluted vinegar:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I don't bother with the BCP, I change the SB when I change the fix,
> but maybe I should start.

I wonder what's the shipping charge for a single gram of bromocresol
purple?  ;)

Still, if you're paying to ship glacial acetic (ground only, hazmat
surcharge, and in winter you have to wonder if it will freeze in
transit), it shouldn't add anything to the shipping to get a gram of BCP
along with it.  Alternately, if you have a local supplier for glacial
acetic, they might well have BCP (or be able to order it in without
charging you as much to ship as you pay for the chemical).

OTOH, by the time you buy enough of each to get significantly ahead of
one-shot use of white vinegar 1:1, you'll be a great many rolls of film
down the road, I think.

Y'know, we still need to find a fixer in the grocery store -- we've got
a couple different developers (Caffenol, and more recently one made from
acetaminophen), and stop bath, but no fixer...

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Dieter Zakas - 02 Nov 2004 18:11 GMT
>> Hmmm.  There is no reason one can't add one's own pinch of indicator to
>> diluted vinegar:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> a couple different developers (Caffenol, and more recently one made from
> acetaminophen), and stop bath, but no fixer...

MacGyver, where are you when we need you? :-)

Dieter Zakas
Nicholas O. Lindan - 02 Nov 2004 19:49 GMT
Donald Qualls at silent1@ix.netcom.com wrote

> Still, if you're paying to ship glacial acetic (ground only, hazmat
> surcharge, and in winter you have to wonder if it will freeze in
> transit)

You buy it locally:
$8-$10 / gal. from a chemicals supplier, usually 5 gal minimum.  Also
available from graphic arts and some industrial supply firms.
- or -
$25-$30 / gal. from a photo store

It is expected to freeze: melting point is 62F.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com

Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 20:26 GMT
> Donald Qualls at silent1@ix.netcom.com wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> It is expected to freeze: melting point is 62F.

Yep, but can you buy bromocresol yellow locally, too?  Or will you have
to pay $12 to ship your $8 gram of indicator dye?

And besides that, your five gallon minimum of glacial is at least $40 --
dilute 1:32 to get 3% working stop bath solution, and you have 160
gallons of stop bath (and yes, of course you don't dilute it all at
once, but then you have to store the moderately hazardous glacial acid,
or dilute it all to more than fifteen gallons of 28% stock).  So, for
somewhere between fifty and seventy dollars, you can save on stop bath
-- or you can spend $1.50 for a gallon of white vinegar, dilute 1:1, and
one shot it for a nickel per roll of film.  I don't think I can afford
to save that much.

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Donald Qualls - 02 Nov 2004 20:21 GMT
>>Y'know, we still need to find a fixer in the grocery store -- we've got
>>a couple different developers (Caffenol, and more recently one made from
>>acetaminophen), and stop bath, but no fixer...
>
> MacGyver, where are you when we need you? :-)

No, not him -- he can't managed to develop film in coffee and use the
orange juice as stop bath, with the result that his film turns black
while he's looking at it (though I found it interesting that it was
cleared, as if fixed, rather than milky as unfixed film should be);
instead, he used the OJ as developer (and what did he alkalize either
one with, we don't know) and pulled the film into the light without even
a stop bath.

Sad to say, though there have been dozens of fixers over the past 170 or
so years, only the thiosulfates have ever gone anywhere.  Salt water or
sea water has been said to fix, but it doesn't.  Sodium sulfite does,
but has very low capacity and is extremely slow even in saturated
solution -- as in, soak your film for days and change solution several
times trying for a good fix.  Most of the other potential fixers are
also fogging agents (not that big a deal, as long as you avoid developer
carry over) or bleaches (very bad, if you're losing image while you
remove the undeveloped halide), or both.  Even thiosulfate can bleach,
weakly, in an acidic solution.  No, sodium thiosulfate isn't
particularly toxic -- it's the specific antidote for prussic acid, aka
cyanide, though it has to be administered almost instantly (another
strike against MacGyver -- by the time he got Pete Thornton the fixer
from the mini-lab, which should have contained toxic levels of dissolved
silver, it was too late to save a real cyanide victim, even if he wasn't
quite dead yet).

The problem with fixers is only partly that the halogens grip metal ions
very tightly; fixing requires both a chemical that can solubilize silver
ions, *and* one that can keep the halogen ions from reforming insoluble
halides with the silver.  Chloride, Bromide, and Iodide will all replace
nitrate -- not because they're more reactive than the nitrate ion, but
because their compound is insoluble, so any tiny bit that forms
immediately drops out of the reaction as an insoluble solid.  The
thiosulfates provide sodium or ammonium ions to keep the chloride happy
and in solution while the thiosulfate complexes the silver in a form
that doesn't just re-react with the chloride in solution -- and that
trick is one tha few chemicals can manage.

The places to look would be in the thio- family, because of the affinity
between silver and sulfur, but most of them are also fogging agents --
thiourea, for instance (these days called carbamide), and thiocyanates,
are both strong foggants.  There may be other thio- chemicals, however,
that could complex silver and resolubilize it from a halide crystal --
perhaps a thionitrate or thiophosphate, if such things aren't just the
fevered dreams of a non-chemist.  None of those, however, are likely to
appear on grocery aisles as common household materials.

Hmm.  Maybe garlic juice, with its high concentration of allyl sulfide?
It's probably a foggant, but might it be a fixer?  And if so, could any
of us stand to use it immediately after half an hour in the same room
with Caffenol?

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
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