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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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TXP + D-76 times

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Kevin - 22 Oct 2004 14:50 GMT
According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
seen 6 min. published elsewhere. However, even with 9 mins. my
negatives are about 2 stops under exposed. I'm real curious what kind
of times others are using with this combination.

BTW, I'm certain that my shutter and meter and not the problem. I've
been shooting Velvia with no problem. If I have a camera problem I'd
know quickly.

Thanks,
Kevin
Donald Qualls - 22 Oct 2004 16:01 GMT
> According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
> 320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
> seen 6 min. published elsewhere. However, even with 9 mins. my
> negatives are about 2 stops under exposed. I'm real curious what kind
> of times others are using with this combination.

Okay, positing that in fact your meter and shutter are correct (since
you shoot chromes with good results, they can't be terribly far out),
let's check whether you mean "underexposed", as you typed, or
"underdeveloped" -- if underexposed, then for some reason your film
isn't getting enough light, and nothing you do in development will
really correct the problem (yes, you can gain a little speed with the
right developer or extended processing -- the latter at the cost of
greatly increased contrast -- but not enough to make up anything like
two stops on that film); if underdeveloped, then you just need to
increase time or temperature to compensate.

Underexposure (with properly working meter and shutter when shooting
Velvia) could occur if your meter were working differently when set to
EI 320 (or whatever speed you're using) instead of Velvia's much lower
speed; this could happen with an electronic meter if there were a bad
contact in the speed setting wheel, or due to a bad battery (lower light
levels will show greater errors, generally), or due to a "tired"
selenium cell in a battery-free meter.  It could occur if a focal plane
shutter were "capping" at higher shutter speeds (trailing curtain
catching up to the leading one, though this will typically also cause
unevenness across the frame), or if your aperture were inaccurate at
smaller stops.  It could happen if a multi-range meter were in an
incorrect range (incident dome in place but meter still set for
reflective, or spot attachment installed with meter still in averaging
mode, or even a meter with multiple sensitivity ranges in daylight range
with indoor lighting); many meters become inaccurate near the lower edge
of a range.

Underdevelopment could occur due to exhausted developer (reusing stock
solution too many times or without appropriate increase in process time,
or just too long in the bottle), temperature lower than indicated for
the time used (which could come from a dial thermometer that's been
dropped, among other things), developer solution diluted 1:1 and using
stock solution times, wrong developer in the bottle (though I don't
offhand recall a common modern developer slower than D-76), using
prewash with dry fill times, using intermittent (i.e. inversion)
agitation with rotary times or just using less agitation than indicated
in the time/temp table.  The time you're using matches the Massive Dev
Chart time for 320TXP in 120 format, which *should* be for intermittent
agitation, something like ten seconds every minute by inversion and/or
twirling stick.

How to tell which is which?  If the shadows are very empty but
highlights only slightly thin, you're probably underexposed (normal
contrast, mid-tones as thin as shadows should be).  If the highlights
are very thin as well as all other tones, you're underdeveloped (very
low contrast, i.e. little difference between highlights and shadows).

Oh, if you're using sheet film (for which, BTW, the Massive Dev Chart
shows 6 minutes instead of 9, presumably for constant agitation as with
tray development), you could get just about what you're seeing if you
loaded the sheets with the base side toward the lens (well, actually, it
should be more like 3-4 stops under, but if it's sheets in trays, you're
also pushing it about one stop).  Notch code goes at the right side of
the top edge to put emulsion toward you in the dark (I say it that way
because I've seen older film that was notched in landscape orientation
instead of portrait like all the modern film I've seen -- my method is
correct for both, but "upper right" in portrait with film notched in
landscape will have you loading base toward the lens).

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Kevin - 23 Oct 2004 02:58 GMT
Thanks Donald for all them information. I don't think I've ever had
such a detailed response. Anyway, I've ruled out the camera, I should
say lens/shutter or meter having a problem. The camera is a 4x5.  I'm
using a spot meter and a grey card. I've used them for serveral years,
but it's been about 4 or 5 years since I've done black and white. I've
used a lot of the older Tri-X (TXT) and TMax without any problem.  I'm
pretty sure the problem is strictly under development. I'm suspecting
the developer is bad or the themometer is messed up. I'm going to look
into it futher tomorrow. I may get another batch of developer, maybe
even just some illford B&W film developer just to test it. It's hard
to go wrong with that. Also, I'm definately loading the film facing
the right direction.

I'm let  you know soon as I figure it out. Thanks a bunch for all the
information. I think you covered just about every possibility.

Kevin

>> According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>> 320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>correct for both, but "upper right" in portrait with film notched in
>landscape will have you loading base toward the lens).
Donald Qualls - 23 Oct 2004 03:17 GMT
> Thanks Donald for all them information. I don't think I've ever had
> such a detailed response. Anyway, I've ruled out the camera, I should
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to go wrong with that. Also, I'm definately loading the film facing
> the right direction.

If you're going to buy developer, I'd suggest HC-110 (or Ilfotec HC,
effectively the same) -- if you dilute from concentrate as you use it,
you should never have to worry about it going bad from age; when
arhcaeologists in the 30th century dig up the remains of 20th century
photography, they'll find a lot of badly deteriorated images, and
completely usable bottles of HC-110 and Rodinal.

I recommend HC-110 because it is a more "middle of the road" developer
than Rodinal, better for film speed, and less prone to "love it or hate
it" reactions.  I usually use it at Dilution G these days; Tri-X should
be very nice at 15 to 18 minutes.  :)

> I'm let  you know soon as I figure it out. Thanks a bunch for all the
> information. I think you covered just about every possibility.

I tried.  :)

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Robert Vervoordt - 23 Oct 2004 10:25 GMT
>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Thanks,
>Kevin

After reviewing this thread, to date, I have one suggestion, if it is
a possibilty.  

With 35mm and rollfilm there are light struck edge numbers and film
identification markings.  If these are fully developed and the images
weak, this would indicate underexposure.  If the edge markings are
weak, as wel as the image, this would indicate underdevelopment.

As I haven't used sheet film in decades, I can't say wheter or not
they have usable edge markings.  If they do, your on your way.  If
not, then you're going to have to answer the question some other way.

Regards.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Donald Qualls - 23 Oct 2004 11:38 GMT
>>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> they have usable edge markings.  If they do, your on your way.  If
> not, then you're going to have to answer the question some other way.

Main problem with this suggestion, Robert, is that the edge markings
aren't subject to any significant exposure control; I've seen them quite
weak on some film, and full black on other film, all with normal
development (negatives that printed and/or scanned well).  No edge
markings at all is a strong indicator of under- or no development, but
beyond that you really can't draw much conclusion from the edge markings.

And in any case, I don't recall seeing edge markings on sheet film, even
from Kodak.  It would surely elicit complaints from LF photographers who
like to (contact) print the whole film, including the rebate with the
silhouette of the holder or film sheath...

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Kevin - 23 Oct 2004 14:01 GMT
There are markings on the edge that say Kodak 320TXP.  I examined two
negatives, one that  was done for  6 minutes and the other done for 9
minutes. The lettering is lighter on the 6 minute one. But, neither is
completely black. I'm going to pick up some HC-110 to day and give it
a try.

Thanks again,
Kevin

>>>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>>>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>like to (contact) print the whole film, including the rebate with the
>silhouette of the holder or film sheath...
Robert Vervoordt - 23 Oct 2004 19:19 GMT
>There are markings on the edge that say Kodak 320TXP.  I examined two
>negatives, one that  was done for  6 minutes and the other done for 9
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Thanks again,
>Kevin

Glad my suggestion helped out.

>>>>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>>>>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>like to (contact) print the whole film, including the rebate with the
>>silhouette of the holder or film sheath...

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Richard Knoppow - 24 Oct 2004 23:46 GMT
> According to the data on the package of D76, the
> development time for
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks,
> Kevin

  I just checked the revised times on the Kodak web site,
they are still the same for Tri-X sheet film. My experience
in the past is that the peculiar upswept curve of this film
(and the old Plus-X sheet film also) results in rather thin
looking negatives even though the contrast index is what is
expected; the negatives look under developed but print OK.
The idea of this stuff is the produce very bright
highlights. The contrast in the shadow areas can become very
low especially wehre a high flare lens is used.
  The advise about edge markings is good although it shows
only gross errors. If overall contrast is OK when printing
but shadows are either too dark or low in contrast it can be
somewhat remedied by increasing exposure by a stop or so.
However, because the contrast of the film increases
continuously with exposure, this will not ever push the
shadows into a straight line area of the curve, with higher
contrast, because there isn't any straight line area.
  Tri-X sheet film is good for specific types of images but
IMHO is not a good general purpose film. Its hard to know
what is still available now. My favorite was Agfa film but I
am not sure they still make it in sheets and Ilford is very
questionable at the moment. Fuji Neopan 400 might be a good
choice or T-Max 400. The latter is a short toe film with a
long straight line section. Contrary to it reputation it
does not produce bullet-proof highlights, it only requires
care in processing since it is more sensitive to errors in
time, temperature, or agitation than most other films.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Kevin - 25 Oct 2004 04:40 GMT
Richard,

I seem to be coming to the same conclusion.  I should probably create
a graph and see what the curve actually is. I do find it odd that I
have to overexpose by 2 stops to get a zone 1 density that is .1 above
base plus fog. I took a couple of shots indoors of some guitars in
artificial light. One was overexposed by one stop and the other was
two stops.  I'm not good at evaluating them yet. I was going to print
them this morning only to find my enlarger bulbs were dead. Aparently
the enlarger got left on. So, I'll have to wait a week to print them
since I have to order new bulbs. I'm expecting to find the contrast to
be a little weak based on the density tests I've done on test
negatives. However, maybe they will print just fine.

I've used TMax 400 in the past. I just seem  to like the results I've
gotten from Tri-X a little more.

BTW, I did try using HC-110 to see if it made any difference. It
didn't really effect my tests. So, either I don't know what I'm doing
or I have a bad batch of film. Most likely, I don't know what I'm
doing.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help from everyone. I can't believe what
a response I got.

Thanks,
Kevin Kemp

>> According to the data on the package of D76, the
>> development time for
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>care in processing since it is more sensitive to errors in
>time, temperature, or agitation than most other films.
Tom Phillips - 25 Oct 2004 05:09 GMT
> Richard,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> artificial light. One was overexposed by one stop and the other was
> two stops.

While I'm not a tri-x shooter, it's not unusual to rate film
speed (effective speed) 1/3 to 1/2 the ISO speed and develop
less. However the old tri-x processing times were less than for
new tri-x (i.e., there was an _increase_ in the development time
from 8 minutes to 9 minutes in D76 stock) So in your case one
might try rating the film at 200 (as many do) and developing for
longer, perhaps 10 minutes.

just my 2 cents.

> I'm not good at evaluating them yet. I was going to print
> them this morning only to find my enlarger bulbs were dead. Aparently
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> >care in processing since it is more sensitive to errors in
> >time, temperature, or agitation than most other films.
Tom Phillips - 25 Oct 2004 05:17 GMT
> > Richard,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> While I'm not a tri-x shooter, it's not unusual to rate film
> speed (effective speed) 1/3 to 1/2 the ISO speed

1/3 to 1/2 stop _less_ than the ISO rated speed (give more exposure.)
Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Oct 2004 06:13 GMT
"Kevin" <kkempNOSPAMsprint@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> D76 ... 320 Tri-x (TXP) [sheet film] ... negatives are
> about 2 stops under exposed.  [Are Kodak's published
> times reliable?]

Kodak's published development times are the _last_ thing
I would doubt.

If you haven't found the cause it is because it is somewhere
you have not yet looked or that you are sure is not the cause.

Have you tried distilled water, only costs $0.69 to find out?
I found Cleveland city water was the cause of 20 years
of development woes.  I only stumbled on to it when I tried
Rodinal and got consistently blank negatives.
One bottle of Distilata and I was hooked; in the succeeding 20
years I have not had _one_ case of mysterious under/non
development.  Non-mystery failures are another matter ...

I would doubt _everything_.  Does the light meter agree with
a Black-Cat card?  Does the shutter jive with a spinning
turntable or the lines on a TV screen - at the speeds you are
using to shoot the Tri-X?  Do the aperture settings agree with
a ruler measurement of the entrance pupil?  Is the D-76 good?
Are you agitating by the book? etc. etc. etc.  Did you load
the film with the emulsion towards the lens?  We have all done
these at one time or another.

If D-76 & Tri-X isn't working then something is seriously
wrong.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Robert Vervoordt - 25 Oct 2004 09:19 GMT
>"Kevin" <kkempNOSPAMsprint@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Kodak's published development times are the _last_ thing
>I would doubt.

They sure are among the last on the list.

>If you haven't found the cause it is because it is somewhere
>you have not yet looked or that you are sure is not the cause.
>
>Have you tried distilled water, only costs $0.69 to find out?
>I found Cleveland city water was the cause of 20 years
>of development woes.

Ouch!  I have been lucky in having lived in Hudson County, NJ, NYC,
Los Angeles and San Francisco durng  my darkroom activities.  No
problems.  On a few occasions, I had to develope a roll or two in some
other areas, and had a few unexpected disappointments that I couldn't
figure out.  That could well have been the cause underlying these few
misfortunes.  I add my vote to this suggestion.

At a time when I felt that I knew pretty much enough  to figure my way
out of a sticky situation in darkroom work, I am pleasntly surprised
to get another nugget of information.  That's one of the real benefits
of this and other NGs  and why we have to make the environment here
more welcoming of rational and polite discourse.

Thanks, Nick.  Oh, wasn't that river flowing by Cleveland the one that
would occasionally catch fire from its pollution, or was it
Minneapolis?

>I only stumbled on to it when I tried
>Rodinal and got consistently blank negatives.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>the film with the emulsion towards the lens?  We have all done
>these at one time or another.

If You, Kevin, can't tell just from eyeballing the negs about Nick's
last point, make some contact prints.  I know you have no use of an
enlarger, but setting up a light bulb over a contact frame would work,
Just make a first test with a known set of good negatives, then tests
with your mystery rolls.  You'll see if they are properly oriented
right away.  After that you'll getan idea about what you can discern
from the edge markings.  While Richard is right that they are not
definitive, they are usually indicative and can give you a boost along
the way toward a solution.

>If D-76 & Tri-X isn't working then something is seriously
>wrong.

Regards to all,

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Kevin - 25 Oct 2004 13:20 GMT
I was thinking of trying distilled water and forgot about. I'm going
to give that a try tonight. If that doens't work, maybe I'll pick up
another batch of film.

Another thing that bothers me is how purple the base is. I've never
had negatives come out purple before. It's the same whether I use D76
or HC-110. I've heard of other people seeing this and have heard is
not a problem.  

Kevin

>"Kevin" <kkempNOSPAMsprint@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>If D-76 & Tri-X isn't working then something is seriously
>wrong.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Oct 2004 15:32 GMT
> Another thing that bothers me is how purple the base is. I've never
> had negatives come out purple before.

That's not the base.  The base is the plastic part of the film.  Sometimes
the plastic is dyed a very light grey.

The purple is the anti-halation dye that sits under the emulsion.

Again, this purple stain has nothing to do with the developer.  
The culprit is the fix and the wash.

Use fresh fixer: fresh stock from the store, mix it up with water
just before use.  Agitate in the fix just as you do when developing.
Fix for the full time: 5 minutes for rapid fix and 10 minutes for
powdered fix.

Follow with freshly made up and mixed hypo clearing agent.  Again
agitate, leave the film in for at least 5 minutes.  Keep the HCA
and wash water at 68F - 72F.  Wash for 10-15 minutes.

Use Photo-Flo, with agitation, for 5 minutes.

You mention you are taking up darkroom work after a longish hiatus --
are _all_ the chemicals fresh?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Donald Qualls - 25 Oct 2004 15:34 GMT
> I was thinking of trying distilled water and forgot about. I'm going
> to give that a try tonight. If that doens't work, maybe I'll pick up
> another batch of film.

Hmm.  As I recall from the thread, even HC-110 didn't improve your
negatives; you're still getting a very thin appearance with 320TXP in
4x5 sheets.  Right?

Water certainly could affect things if you have something bizarre in
your water; I always dilute with (at least) filtered drinking water,
which is, if not of exceptional purity, at least very consistent (since
I've recently moved and the filtered water I'm used to seems unavailable
in North Carolina, I'll be switching to drinking water which, the bottle
states, is prepared by distillation and ozonation).  One thing in water
that could affect you is oxidizers, which could lead to premature
exhaustion of the developer -- if you're in an area with perchlorate or
nitrate in the water, tap water could cause this (but if you are, you'd
probably have seen all sorts of stuff in the news, since perchlorate
especially is getting a pretty bad name as a water impurity).  I'm not
sure of the effects of dissolved metals, other than that it's usually
considered a bad idea to have exposed non-stainless steels in contact
with developer -- whether the iron picked up by solution affects
development, or it's just an issue of corrosion leading to rust flake
shedding, I'm not certain.  Tin is a foggant, of course, but there's
generally not much tin in water supplies (could be, I suppose, if you
have unusually alkaline water and newly installed copper plumbing, but
you're not seeing fogging).

Another remote possibility is that industrial pollution in your water
could act as a restrainer, but ISTM if there were enough to have the
effect you're seeing, one or another of the environmental watchdog
agencies (governmental or otherwise) would be barking up a storm.
Softened water might also do this; softening replaces calcium in
solution with sodium, but since it uses salt (sodium chloride) in the
ion exchange, it can also add traces of chloride which, like bromide and
iodide, acts as a restrainer.  I've heard softened water is bad for
development, but never heard of it restraining development enough to
notice; mostly I've heard of it as a consistency issue, because the
water pH can change depending on how close you are to recharge time on
the softener.

> Another thing that bothers me is how purple the base is. I've never
> had negatives come out purple before. It's the same whether I use D76
> or HC-110. I've heard of other people seeing this and have heard is
> not a problem.  

Purple negatives are endemic to the new coating plant -- it started with
T-Max films, but since everything is coated on the same equipment now,
we see it with Tri-X and Plus-X as well.  More washing and/or use of
Hypo Clearing Agent generally clears the purple; some have reported
better fixing to solve the problem, but the general take seems to be
that sulfite denatures the dye -- so the sulfite in fixer might reduce
it, but could require over fixing, and the sulfite in a wash aid will
likely improve it as well.

Interestingly, I've never had purple negatives despite using TMY almost
exclusively in 120 for the past year or more.  I do slightly overfix; I
keep the film in rapid fixer for six times the clearing time (i.e. twice
the recommended time of 3x clearing for T-grain films).  I don't think
that amount of extra fixing does any harm to the image (an hour in rapid
fixer seems to have only barely visible bleaching effect), ensures I
have adequate fixing, and that or my Ilford method wash does the job on
the purple dye.

Purple negatives aren't really a problem in terms of printing, but they
might indicate a sub-archival level of fixing or washing; at the very
least, you might want to try a residual silver test in unexposed film
put through your normal process to verify complete fixing, and also
consider a residual hypo test to verify your wash is complete.

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

The Wogster - 25 Oct 2004 14:17 GMT
> "Kevin" <kkempNOSPAMsprint@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> years I have not had _one_ case of mysterious under/non
> development.  Non-mystery failures are another matter ...

No city water supply anywhere is pure H2O, it always contains something
else, chlorine is almost a given, floride is another one, copper, lead
and iron are often in there, along with other things.  Trace amounts of
these metals, depending on what the pipes were made of, how old they are
and how much other crap has built up in the pipes since the
neighbourhood was built.

You can always get water tested by a lab.  They will tell you what's in
it, and in what amounts.  You might want to review the results with your
doctor as well, if it's not healthy for your developer, it may not be
healthy for you either.....

The solution can be using distilled water, or simply putting one of
those cartridge water filters in the line, depending on what is causing
the problem.

W
Kevin - 26 Oct 2004 04:49 GMT
Well, I tried distilled water tonight and still get the same results.

So far I've...

Compared my meter against two other cameras.
Tried two different lens/shutters.
Verified I'm not putting the film in backwards.
Tried two different developers and two different fixers.
Checked my thermometer.
Mixed new chemicals with distilled water.
Used all brand new chemicals and new film.
Double,triple, quadruple checked everything.
Used two timers, simultaneously.

About the only thing I haven't eliminated is the film. One thing is
pretty clear though is that the film is under-developed rather than
under-exposed. Or maybe both.

I really appreciate all the information you guys have provided.  You
guys are amazing!

I'll let you know when I figure it out.

Thanks!
Kevin

>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Thanks,
>Kevin
jjs - 26 Oct 2004 07:13 GMT
> [...]
> About the only thing I haven't eliminated is the film.

Told ya! But in the wrong thread. :(
Is the film expired?
Kevin - 26 Oct 2004 13:49 GMT
No, the film expires 03/2007. I am think of trying TMax again just to
see how it does. I've have good results in the past.

Kevin

>> [...]
>> About the only thing I haven't eliminated is the film.
>
>Told ya! But in the wrong thread. :(
>Is the film expired?
Donald Qualls - 26 Oct 2004 11:12 GMT
> Well, I tried distilled water tonight and still get the same results.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> pretty clear though is that the film is under-developed rather than
> under-exposed. Or maybe both.

Okay, then the next thing to try is to ignore the charts and develop for
40% to 50% longer and see what you get -- so go up from 9 minutes to,
say, 13.  Regardless what's happening, if thirteen minutes gets you to
good contrast, then you can at least determine if you're also losing
film speed for some reason.

> I really appreciate all the information you guys have provided.  You
> guys are amazing!
>
> I'll let you know when I figure it out.

This group is pretty good when they're not bickering...  :)

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Kevin - 26 Oct 2004 13:52 GMT
Thanks Donald, I'll try that.

Kevin

>> Well, I tried distilled water tonight and still get the same results.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>This group is pretty good when they're not bickering...  :)
Tom Phillips - 26 Oct 2004 22:52 GMT
> Well, I tried distilled water tonight and still get the same results.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> pretty clear though is that the film is under-developed rather than
> under-exposed. Or maybe both.

Film speed. Time. Change it.
Kevin - 27 Oct 2004 04:29 GMT
Tom,

I've tried changing both the exposure speed and development time. What
I've come up with is it needs between 1 and 2 stops (closer to 2 I
think) of over-exposure and 10 minutes of developing (instead of
recommended 9) with D-76.  I'm inspecting the negative visually and
with a densitometer. I'm waiting for bulbs for my enlarger so, till
then I won't really know how well they print but, from what I see, it
seems they should print OK.

BTW, fixing for 10 minutes did get rid of most of the purple die.

I also tried developing for 13 minutes like Donald suggested just to
see if the speed would come up but, it didn't. However, the constrast
sure jumped up.

I can't believe this batch of film is good. I've developed lots of the
older Tri-X and TMAX (100 and 400) and they were all very close to
their rated speed. This batch is just too far off to be right. I've
never gotten bad film from Kodak before so it just seems strange that
the batch would be bad.

Anyway, I think I may need to switch to TMax again before I go crazy.

Kevin

>> Well, I tried distilled water tonight and still get the same results.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Film speed. Time. Change it.
Michael A. Covington - 27 Oct 2004 05:19 GMT
You might try returning some of the film to Kodak for them to test.
Tom Phillips - 27 Oct 2004 07:28 GMT
> Tom,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> then I won't really know how well they print but, from what I see, it
> seems they should print OK.

Everyone's effective speed and results will vary according to
their processing method and developer, dilution, agitation, etc.
A 2 stop difference between the ISO rated speed and your
effective speed seems a lot to me, but like I said I don't
routinely shoot Tri-x. It's not unusual (in fact it's the norm)
to need more exposure (1/3 to 2/3 stop) than the rated speed
for many film/developer combinations, unless you use a developer
that gives an actual speed increase. It's always best to do your
own testing rather than guessing, but clearly you need more
exposure and more development.

If you're having that much trouble _I_ would do some step
wedge tests and draw some curves. But I don't know if you
have a densitometer. Normally, you pick a "normal" developing
time (10 or maybe 12 minutes) and vary the step wedge exposure
until you get a normal density range (the last 2 steps on a 21
step wedge show little or no density.) Then do a speed test by
shooting a gray card for zone I density at the normal developing
time.

> BTW, fixing for 10 minutes did get rid of most of the purple die.

It should. But 10 minutes also seems a bit long to fix. I fix
T-Max for 5-7 minutes max. A slight purple tint after fixing
should come out in the HCA/washing steps.

> I also tried developing for 13 minutes like Donald suggested just to
> see if the speed would come up but, it didn't. However, the constrast
> sure jumped up.

Your effective speed will always change with the developing time.
Developing longer will bring the speed up, but may not give
normal contrast. I think as Richard said, some films _appear_
thin. I have T-max negatives that look somewhat thin but
print normally on a Grade 2 paper, as I tested them to do.

> I can't believe this batch of film is good. I've developed lots of the
> older Tri-X and TMAX (100 and 400) and they were all very close to
> their rated speed. This batch is just too far off to be right. I've
> never gotten bad film from Kodak before so it just seems strange that
> the batch would be bad.

I don't think it's the film. If you think it is, you should save
some unexposed and send it in to Kodak for testing with a
description of the problem.

> Anyway, I think I may need to switch to TMax again before I go crazy.

I tend to prefer the finer grain...

> Kevin
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> >Film speed. Time. Change it.
Donald Qualls - 27 Oct 2004 11:06 GMT
> Tom,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Anyway, I think I may need to switch to TMax again before I go crazy.

Just relabel the box "Plus-X" and ignore the fact that it takes more
development than Tri-X should?  :)

What I suspect is that the emulsion is defective in some way; first
guess would be a problem with sensitizing dyes, since you don't report
fog that would go with storage problems.  You might try contacting the
dealer you bought it from, or Kodak directly, to see if there's a known
problem with that particular batch (there should be a batch number on
the Kodak label, and they'll surely want that for tracking purposes).

An excessively hard emulsion would affect development time (reduced
diffusion rate) and fixing time (same deal), but I wouldn't expect it to
affect film speed; the sensitizing dyes are in the emulsion before it's
coated (hot-melted) onto the base.  In this case, it'd be the overcoat
that I'd suspect, since it's applied separately.  Another possibility is
if there were a line crossup and the antihalation layer (harder than the
overcoat and with the dye in) got coated as overcoat; that would account
for both loss of speed (due to absorption of light in the dyed overcoat)
and slow process (due to the harder gelatin).  This might happen if the
film went through the overcoat/anticurl/antihalation part of the coating
line upside down, but got corrected before the cutting section (so the
notches are oriented correctly).

If either of those happened I'd expect Kodak to have had some complaints
by now and know of a bad coating run (and be replacing film under
warranty, usually with a smile if their history is any guide).

You might pull out a sheet and examine it in the light to be sure the
dye coating is on the correct side of the sheet (the base side should be
significantly darker than the emulsion side) and that the texture (for
retouching) is on the correct side (emulsion side only for this film, IIRC).

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Kevin - 27 Oct 2004 14:58 GMT
I checked with Kodak and apparently there are no batch problems.

I'm going to try to get some outdoor shots today taken at normal speed
and 200 and print them this evening, and just see how it works.  Maybe
I'm just getting too caught up in this sensitomtry stuff. Just for
kicks maybe I'll have them developed at a lab. The guy at Kodak
confirmed that I should not have to be over developing that much
though. So, I still have to believe I have something wrong going on
here.

Cheers,
Kevin

>> Tom,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>significantly darker than the emulsion side) and that the texture (for
>retouching) is on the correct side (emulsion side only for this film, IIRC).
jjs - 27 Oct 2004 16:19 GMT
>I checked with Kodak and apparently there are no batch problems.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> though. So, I still have to believe I have something wrong going on
> here.

Bad developer?  Have you tried printing the negatives?  Have you shot any
film you know in that camera lately? Maybe the shutter speeds went bad.
Donald Qualls - 27 Oct 2004 22:11 GMT
>>I checked with Kodak and apparently there are no batch problems.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Bad developer?  Have you tried printing the negatives?  Have you shot any
> film you know in that camera lately? Maybe the shutter speeds went bad.

Read back in the thread, JJ -- same camera, lens, shutter, meter gave
good results with Velvia just before starting the Tri-X, and he reported
developing some of this box of Tri-X with freshly purchased and mixed
HC-110 with similar results (both great speed loss, appr. 2 stops to
about EI 80, and underdevelopment with Kodak's recommended time/temp).

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Donald Qualls - 27 Oct 2004 22:13 GMT
> I checked with Kodak and apparently there are no batch problems.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> though. So, I still have to believe I have something wrong going on
> here.

Seriously -- pull out a single sheet and look at it in the light.
You'll be able to see the emulsion vs. base, and if the notch got cut in
the wrong corner, you'd be loading the film backward and wouldn't know
it (which would cause your speed loss, but probably not your
underdevelopment).  Alternately, if they coated the antihalation on the
wrong side, you'll be able to see that, too.

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Tom Phillips - 28 Oct 2004 02:09 GMT
> > Tom,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> guess would be a problem with sensitizing dyes, since you don't report
> fog that would go with storage problems.  

Just _test_ the film to determine correct exposure and development
and stop guessing...
Kevin - 28 Oct 2004 04:19 GMT
>Just _test_ the film to determine correct exposure and development
>and stop guessing...

That's the plan at this point. I got the bulbs in my enlarger replaced
and finally made some prints tonight from some of my negatives. The
negative developed for 6 minutes in D-76 had really low constast where
as the negative developed for 10 minutes reproduced a print with too
much contrast. This is all relative to a known good negative that
happens to make a beautiful print. So, I think  homing in on the
correct development time will do the trick.

I also exposed two negatives identically and took one to a lab and I
developed the other with normal development. The one I developed is
horribly thin. I'll get the one from the lab tomorrow.  It will be
interesting to see if they are different. In any case, I think it will
tell me a lot.

Kevin
Tom Phillips - 28 Oct 2004 05:44 GMT
> >Just _test_ the film to determine correct exposure and development
> >and stop guessing...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Kevin

Try shooting a gray card series. The lab (if a profssional lab)
should also have a densitometer that will read the results for
you.

A "normal" contrast range and correct EI at a chosen development
time should yield zone I density (the speed point) of about 0.10;
zone V at about 0.70 to 0.80; and a zone VIII density of about
1.25 to 1.3.

This should print "normally" on a grade 2 or using 0 MG filter.
Of course creative printing will vary...
Kevin - 28 Oct 2004 13:50 GMT
Thanks Tom. That's actually what I started out doing. I do have my own
densitometer. Since, I haven't been able to obtain proper density
without overexposing and over developing excessively, I switched to
just trying to get a decent negative and print by just shooting real
scenes. I think the negative that I took to the lab will tell me
something.

Believe me. I've done this stuff many times with great success using
the older Tri-X and TMax.  There's just something drastically wrong
here. For instance, I did a shot yesterday with the meter set at ISO
200. I developed it for 6 minutes in D76. The negative was so thin, it
was not  printable. OK, I actually did print it. The exposure time on
the enlarger had to be cut to a third of what I use with a good
negative. The contrast was pathetic.  I sent an identically exposed
sheet of film to the lab for developing. I'll get that one back this
evening. If that comes back with the same problem, I'm gettings some
different film. I've already verified that the camera equipment is
working fine. I'm currently using it with reversal film and getting
great transparencies.

If the negative comes back looking good, then I guess I'll start
cranking up my development times.

As far as troubleshooting this, I think everyone here has covered just
about every posible thing that could go wrong and provided solutions.
I even talked to Kodak yesterday. They weren't really able to add
anything. Anyway, one way or another, I'm going to get there.

Cheers,
Kevin

>> >Just _test_ the film to determine correct exposure and development
>> >and stop guessing...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>This should print "normally" on a grade 2 or using 0 MG filter.
>Of course creative printing will vary...
Kevin - 29 Oct 2004 01:37 GMT
If anyone is still interested. I got the negative back from the lab
and it exhibits the same problem. I think that pretty much settles it.
I don't see how it can be anything but the film.

So, I guess it's off to get new film. Think I'll try TMax this time.
Then I'll send this film back to Kodak. BTW, the film supposedly
expires in 2007.

Thanks for all your input.
Kevin

>Thanks Tom. That's actually what I started out doing. I do have my own
>densitometer. Since, I haven't been able to obtain proper density
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>>This should print "normally" on a grade 2 or using 0 MG filter.
>>Of course creative printing will vary...
Pete McCutchen - 29 Oct 2004 21:55 GMT
>I can't believe this batch of film is good. I've developed lots of the
>older Tri-X and TMAX (100 and 400) and they were all very close to
>their rated speed. This batch is just too far off to be right. I've
>never gotten bad film from Kodak before so it just seems strange that
>the batch would be bad.

Maybe it suffered some heat damage in transport.

Why don't you try buying a new role from the store, shooting it
immediately after an old one, and developing them together?  If they
come out differently, toss the rest of the old film, or send it back
to Kodak.
Signature


Pete McCutchen

Kevin - 30 Oct 2004 01:57 GMT
I finally got some new film today. I did switch to TMax and the
problem is gone. I shot the TMax normally and developed it normally
and printed it normally and it looks like it should.

So much for all that agony. I don't guess I'll ever know what was
wrong with the Tri-X but I hope I don't have to go through that again.
I'm not sure it's worth bothering sending it back t o Kodak. I don't
know, maybe I will. Who knows what caused the film to go bad.

Anyway, I'm back in business.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Kevin

>>I can't believe this batch of film is good. I've developed lots of the
>>older Tri-X and TMAX (100 and 400) and they were all very close to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>come out differently, toss the rest of the old film, or send it back
>to Kodak.
Michael A. Covington - 30 Oct 2004 03:32 GMT
>I finally got some new film today. I did switch to TMax and the
> problem is gone. I shot the TMax normally and developed it normally
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm not sure it's worth bothering sending it back t o Kodak. I don't
> know, maybe I will. Who knows what caused the film to go bad.

Kodak needs to know about it, and they'll give you replacement film.
Donald Qualls - 30 Oct 2004 12:18 GMT
> So much for all that agony. I don't guess I'll ever know what was
> wrong with the Tri-X but I hope I don't have to go through that again.
> I'm not sure it's worth bothering sending it back t o Kodak. I don't
> know, maybe I will. Who knows what caused the film to go bad.

I'd recommend working with Kodak to obtain replacement film and send
that back -- it's surely not just fogged from poor storage, and if
there's something else wrong with it, there's no one else on Earth
better qualified to figure out what than them.  And they may need to
know that, because it's extremely unlikely you're the only person with a
bad box from that batch of film -- the 2007 expiration suggests it's new
production, and as such their "no bad batch" statement may just mean
they don't know about the problem yet...

Signature

The challenge to the photographer is to command the medium, to use
whatever current equipment and technology furthers his creative
objectives, without sacrificing the ability to make his own decisions.
                                                         -- Ansel Adams

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer   http://silent1.home.netcom.com

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Tom Phillips - 31 Oct 2004 06:45 GMT
> > So much for all that agony. I don't guess I'll ever know what was
> > wrong with the Tri-X but I hope I don't have to go through that again.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'd recommend working with Kodak to obtain replacement film and send
> that back

it's not worth the time and trouble...
The Wogster - 30 Oct 2004 15:45 GMT
> I finally got some new film today. I did switch to TMax and the
> problem is gone. I shot the TMax normally and developed it normally
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm not sure it's worth bothering sending it back t o Kodak. I don't
> know, maybe I will. Who knows what caused the film to go bad.

I would send it back.  If they can figure out why it went bad, then they
can change their processes in the future to prevent it from happening
again, and that knowledge can be worth much more then a few rolls of
film.  Some companies (don't know about Kodak), will respond by sending
you replacement film.  Don't be surprized if it's more then the number
of rolls you purchased.

W
Kevin - 18 Nov 2004 00:16 GMT
It turns out the film was fine. As I suspected, I was doing something
stupid. It's been a while since I've done serious photography and I
have forgotten some basic things. In this case, my test shots of the
gray card for determining film speed and development time was done
with the lens focus way beyond infinity, and I had forgotten that you
have to compensate the exposure when you do. Anyway, I redid the tests
with the focus set at about infinity. Now everything works like you'd
expect. The reason switching to tmax seemed to solve the problem was
that as the same time I also corrected my focusing issue. I certainly
feel stupid, but at least everything makes sense now. Now for Tri-X my
speed is about ISO 250 and development time in D-76 is about 7
minutes.  I think that sounds more like it.

Cheers,
Kevin

>According to the data on the package of D76, the development time for
>320Tri-x (TXP) using stock solution at 68 degrees is 9 minutes. I've
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Thanks,
>Kevin
Tom Phillips - 18 Nov 2004 01:10 GMT
> It turns out the film was fine. As I suspected, I was doing something
> stupid. It's been a while since I've done serious photography and I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> speed is about ISO 250 and development time in D-76 is about 7
> minutes.  I think that sounds more like it.

Not that I remember much of this discussion (something
about bad tri-x which I didn't think was the film...)

If you are closer than 8x the focal length you need to
calculate an exposure correction. Otherwise not.

OTOH if you're metering with an SLR (through the lens
metering) the light fall off from close focusing is
already compensated for.

> Cheers,
> Kevin
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >Thanks,
> >Kevin
dr bob - 18 Nov 2004 15:04 GMT
> It turns out the film was fine. As I suspected, I was doing something
> stupid. It's been a while since I've done serious photography and I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Cheers,
> Kevin

That is the exact EI and time I use when employing D76 @ 1:0 and 20 deg. C.
for "Normal" (N) exposure and development of TXP.  A great film and
developer combi. IMO.

Truly, dr bob.
 
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