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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Q:  Film Dryer.

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Francis - 20 Oct 2004 20:16 GMT
Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
And I'm wondering which one would be a better solution:  buying a
portable closet such as this one

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43503&item=4331134154&rd=1

or building one from scratch like the one described in "Petersen's
Guide To Photo Equipment You Can Make?"

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
Signature

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| Francis Hartojo   SDF Public Access UNIX System  http://sdf.lonestar.org |
| echo "senapvf@serrfuryy.bet" | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'                     |
|     __________                                           ___________     |
|     \       .'-------------------------------------------`.        /     |
+------>      | There are two secrets to success in life:   |       <------+
     /_______| 1.  Never tell any one everything you know. |________\
             `---------------------------------------------'
jjs - 20 Oct 2004 20:36 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.

I have one Senrac dryer left. Is $100 too much?
Francis - 20 Oct 2004 21:20 GMT
>I have one Senrac dryer left. Is $100 too much?

With shipping or without?  (c:

Actually, I'm also debating between reel dryers and closet dryers.
I used a closet dryer when I took photo classes, so I'm more familiar
with them.  I sort of like the space-saving feature of reel dryers,
though.

Anyone has strong preferences either way?

My plan is to build a closet dryer and just air-dry my films.  I
live in Phoenix, AZ.  Getting things to dry is not a big problem
around here.  (c:  And, I reckon, having as litle moving air around
the drying films as possible is probably the best way to get
dust-free negatives.  Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks.
Signature

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

| Francis Hartojo   SDF Public Access UNIX System  http://sdf.lonestar.org |
| echo "senapvf@serrfuryy.bet" | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'                     |
|     __________                                           ___________     |
|     \       .'-------------------------------------------`.        /     |
+------>      | There are two secrets to success in life:   |       <------+
     /_______| 1.  Never tell any one everything you know. |________\
             `---------------------------------------------'
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 16:37 GMT
...
>My plan is to build a closet dryer and just air-dry my films.  I
>live in Phoenix, AZ.  Getting things to dry is not a big problem
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Thanks.
...

nov1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

Your plan is exactly what I did many years ago. It has
functioned perfectly all this time.

In my case, it's a "wall unit" type of shelf. I removed
the shelves, and taped a roll of polyethylene sheet
(four mil) at the top so the whole front could be
closed off by rolling it down, but still permit air and
moisture to move out. I guess a shelf unit with doors
could be used, too. Sliders would be ideal to blow the
air about less. I got the thing cheap at Goodwill, and
it even has the stylish wood-grain Mactac coating on
the interior. Ideal for moisture resistance!

I originally put a lamp in the bottom, with a low
wattage bulb, to heat the interior and set up a
convection current. But I found it was possible to harm
the negs hanging directly over the heat source; they
could become translucent instead of clear if the bulb
was too hot. I took the lamp out and relied on my
dehumidifier to adjust the environment so that air
motion was relatively unnecessary.

I find it pretty much eliminates dust that embeds
itself on my wet negs. Dust removal at the enlarger is
therefore easy with compressed gas, and print spotting
is extremely reduced compared to my careless old days.
A big payoff for a simple and cheap home handyman
project. I went whole hog and put casters on the bottom
so I could reposition it at whim.

When I hang my rolls in the drying unit, I squirt
distilled water down both surfaces of each roll. Then I
roll the plastic sheet down the front and never touch
it again until they're dry.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:40 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
> And I'm wondering which one would be a better solution:  buying a
> portable closet such as this one

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43503&item=4331134154&rd=1

> or building one from scratch like the one described in "Petersen's
> Guide To Photo Equipment You Can Make?"
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks.

I think that's a great I idea using the portable closet. Easy to move and
store, cheap. Nice one. Might billow a bit when the hair dryer gets going.
The Wogster - 21 Oct 2004 04:32 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> or building one from scratch like the one described in "Petersen's
> Guide To Photo Equipment You Can Make?"

All you need is a long enough cabinet with a fan, heater and a good
filter in the air-flow.  Should probably have the air come in one end,
and go out the other.  The portable closet might be a little large, in
that you would need a pretty powerful fan to move the air through it,
although some baffles in the right places might work.  A box long enough
and about 30cm square with the fan and heater from an old hair-dryer
with some portable A/C filter material on the intake side, and a hole at
the other end for the air to escape (also covered with the same filter
material), would probably work best.  Just need to wash or replace the
filters once in a while....

W
Phil Hobgen - 21 Oct 2004 11:13 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Any suggestions?

I just made one not dissimilar to the one described here -
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/fdryer.htm

I didn't put the heater or fancy bits on. Basically just a box made of
laminated PAR pine (or upright coffin for a very skinny person :-) ).  Holes
drilled in the top and a fan extracting at the bottom. The whole thing sits
on two battens to lift it of the floor and is reasonably stable. I made sure
the door frame had a good seal all round, and it closes on three 'buckle'
type latches. Several coats of clear acrylic varnish so it can be wiped down
before use. I bought a refill box of 'fine' vacuum cleaner filters that have
a plastic frame (Dyson), and made a small frame the right size on the top of
the box that the filter sits in. When the fan is on the filter is drawn down
into place by the partial vacuum. Air flow is quite slow, but this was the
desired effect, so the film inside doesn't flap about. Inside two dowels
across the top allow for hanging - I could probably fit 6-8 35mm films
inside, which is more than I need, but I built the box large enough so that
it isn't too top heavy.

In use, I give it a wipe down inside and leave it running for an hour before
use - when I need to hang the film in it, I switch of the fan and open and
close it carefully so as not to attract a load of new dust. When it closed
again, I switch the fan back on. I left it running for an hour, then turned
it off. I don't open the cabinet till I'm ready to snip up the negatives.

Previously I seemed to get a lot of dust problems (we have three dogs in the
house), the first films through the new dryer are much improved.

Cost was about ?80 (GBP). It would have been cheaper if I'd built it as a
battening frame and covered that with hardboard or something simillarly
cheap, but this way seemed simpler as the boards themselves form the
structure and it all screws together quite easily.

Signature

Cheers

Phil Hobgen, Southampton, UK
-------------------------------------------
phil-trash@barbari.co.uk
for email please delete the dash
and take out the trash

Claudio Bonavolta - 21 Oct 2004 12:24 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>       /_______| 1.  Never tell any one everything you know. |________\
>               `---------------------------------------------'

I built mine:
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/fdryer.htm
but yours may be simpler ...

Regards,
Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch
Mike Schuler - 21 Oct 2004 16:35 GMT
I use a similar 15"x15"x4' clothes protector to dry my film. It works
fine for 120, but 35mm is a few exposures too long, so I have been
cutting any fully used film in half, which is a bit of a pain.

For about two years it was completely passive (no fan or heater) and
drying film overnight worked fine - no curling or dust.  I had
originally installed a few air filters (from a desktop air cleaner) at
the top and a fan I built with Radio Shack parts at the bottom, but
the fan created too much suction and made the thing implode. I've
recently reversed the fan and put a filter on it, but haven't tried it
out yet.

One handy feature is that because it is clear plastic you can inspect
the negatives from the outside. One downside is that the "door"
doesn't open more than a few inches wide, so film occasionally rubs
against the zipper when being loaded.

> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>       /_______| 1.  Never tell any one everything you know. |________\
>               `---------------------------------------------'
Francis - 21 Oct 2004 16:44 GMT
Hello again.  Thank you very much for all wonderful suggestions
you guys have given me.  From what I'm hearing so far, I'm leaning
towards building one from scratch, though my woodworking skills
have been left unused since junior highschool.  (c:  I think I'm
going to stop by the local Walmart and Target in the next couple
of days anyway to see if they've one of those portable closets in
a workable size.

Anyhow, here are some ideas that I've gotten from all your responses
and other sources:

1.  Coating the inside of the cabinet with a wipeable material
   (e.g., acrylic).  So that the dryer space can be cleaned prior
   to use.

2.  Seal the door with weather stripping to keep dust out.

3.  Use a spring latch on the door like described in:

   http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/fdryer.htm

   for a better seal.  (Thanks, Claudio.)

4.  Use a fine air filter on air inlets.

And here are some points that I'm still considering:

1.  Heating.  As I mentioned in a previous post, I live in Phoenix,
   AZ area.  Getting things to dry quickly isn't a big problem
   around here.  Getting them to dry dust-free can be a bit tricky.
   So, I'm basically thinking of just building a well-sealed
   cabinet.  The drying is due to the lack of humidity (I don't
   have a humidifier at home) rather than heat.

   Unless there's a technical reason for raising the temperature
   inside the film dryer?  Something to do with the way the film
   emulsion react to heat, perhaps?  If so, what do you think of
   using a rough-duty 75W/100W bulb installed at the floor of the
   cabinet?  I saw this on a Shutterbug article.  I like this idea
   more because, IMHO, it's less of a fire hazard compared to
   outright heating elements and fans.

2.  Speaking of fans, another reason I'm considering not installing
   heating elements and fans is dust.  Isn't it a safer way to
   dust-free negatives if I don't muck about the air inside the
   dryer too much, however gently?  I know an air filter goes a
   long way in keeping dust out; but, wouldn't not sucking them
   into the cabinet in the first place be safer?

3.  I mentioned the very dry air around this place.  Do I need to
   consider potential problems with static and dust?  If so, any
   suggestions how?  Assuming a wooden cabinet, which parts of it
   will I need to ground?

4.  Anything else I should consider?

I know as an engineer that a lot of these things are trial and
error sort of things.  I'm really not criticising anyone and I
truly appreciate all pointers and ideas.  So, if any more suggestions
you've got on the matter, please keep them coming.

Thank you very much again.
Signature

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+

| Francis Hartojo   SDF Public Access UNIX System  http://sdf.lonestar.org |
| echo "senapvf@serrfuryy.bet" | tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'                     |
|     __________                                           ___________     |
|     \       .'-------------------------------------------`.        /     |
+------>      | There are two secrets to success in life:   |       <------+
     /_______| 1.  Never tell any one everything you know. |________\
             `---------------------------------------------'
Mark in Maine - 21 Oct 2004 18:59 GMT
>Hello again.  Thank you very much for all wonderful suggestions
>you guys have given me.  From what I'm hearing so far, I'm leaning
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>of days anyway to see if they've one of those portable closets in
>a workable size.

I have a made by myself one, I made it out of the pre-finished shelves
that they sell at Home Depot - these are wood (or some facsimile
thereof) coated with a vinyl covering.  I have no fan or heat in the
cabinet, it is just a box with a door that closes.   I have a
dehumidifier in the darkroom, near where the film drying cabinet sits,
which makes that corner of the darkroom warm and dry.
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 19 Nov 2004 21:11 GMT
...

>3.  I mentioned the very dry air around this place.  Do I need to
>    consider potential problems with static and dust?  If so, any
>    suggestions how?  Assuming a wooden cabinet, which parts of it
>    will I need to ground?
>
>4.  Anything else I should consider?
...

In my opinion, sealing the drying box is not necessary.
Neither is providing a fan or a heater or a filter. The
box protects the films from dust and the loose covering
permits evaporated water to exit.

Heating is risky. Dry air is the best promoter of
evaporation of the water on and within the films. The
water will evaporate and fall because humid air is
heavier than dry air (perhaps this should be phrased,
evaporated water, i.e. water vapour, is heavier than
air and therefore falls out the bottom of the loosely
covered front of the drying unit).

Dry air (low relative humidity, RH) will definitely be
a problem. Static electricity will drive those little
dust motes into a frenzy, and you, too. Use a
humidifier to adjust your darkroom environment to the
range of, say, 45-60 per cent relative humidity. When
you want to dry film, adjust the humidifier lower,
toward the bottom of the range (don't go below 45% RH,
it's not necessary). If you just keep it around 50% all
the time, it will be fine.

Controlling darkroom humidity is very important, but
needn't be costly. Controlling over a reasonable
humidity range such as 45-60 is quite easy and cheap
with ordinary household appliances (which happen to
appear at Goodwill and the like for very cheap...).
Controlling to a very narrow range such as 49-51% would
be expensive, and unnecessary for a normal darkroom.

I've placed an article about darkroom humidity
management on my website, under the 'technical' heading
in the table of contents.

Grounding is helpful, too, but for metal or electrical
units, especially the enlarger. My "dryer" is wood and
plastic and non-electrical.

Do people in Arizona live there for the dry climate? I
live in Toronto, and the winter is very dry due to cold
outside air and furnace heat inside. I get nosebleeds
without my humidifier. The weather is very mild today
(it's been an unusually nice November, temperatures
over 10C all this week). Still, the RH inside my place
is 36-38% (and I've seen it as low as 28% this month)
if I turn off my humidifiers. That's close to nosebleed
territory for me. It's the opposite in the summer, so I
need a dehumidifier too!

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Andrew Price - 19 Nov 2004 21:56 GMT
>Do people in Arizona live there for the dry climate? I
>live in Toronto, and the winter is very dry due to cold
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>territory for me. It's the opposite in the summer, so I
>need a dehumidifier too!

Is that tolerable in summer?  I thought a dehumidifier produced extra
heat from the "hot" side of the heat-exchanger.  Or do you use an air
conditioner to dehumidify, where the hot air is ducted outside?
Nick Zentena - 19 Nov 2004 22:19 GMT
> Is that tolerable in summer?  I thought a dehumidifier produced extra
> heat from the "hot" side of the heat-exchanger.  Or do you use an air
> conditioner to dehumidify, where the hot air is ducted outside?

 Heat isn't that bad. Humidity OTOH can drive you crazy. I don't really
mind a dry 35C. But a humid 25C or even lower is no fun at all.

    Nick
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 23 Nov 2004 14:52 GMT
>> Is that tolerable in summer?  I thought a dehumidifier produced extra
>> heat from the "hot" side of the heat-exchanger.  Or do you use an air
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>     Nick

nov2204 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, I agree. Here on the north shore of Lake Ontario,
humid summer days are frequent. To me they feel like a
load on my shoulders.

Just like wet negs and prints, humans will dry off if
the relative humidity is reduced, because evaporation
is promoted. But unlike negs, we give up heat (cool
off) when the water (sweat, eh?) evaporates from our
outer surfaces. So where negs and prints take forever
to dry, we stifle. And pay for electric appliances.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 22 Nov 2004 15:35 GMT
>>Do people in Arizona live there for the dry climate? I
>>live in Toronto, and the winter is very dry due to cold
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>heat from the "hot" side of the heat-exchanger.  Or do you use an air
>conditioner to dehumidify, where the hot air is ducted outside?

nov2204 from Lloyd Erlick,

It's tolerable. The dehumidifier definitely produces
heat, but not all that much. I had it in my basement
darkroom for almost twenty years, and never had an air
conditioner down there. The dehumidifier never seemed
to heat the space noticeably. The dryness of the air
gave a much greater sensation of coolness when the
machine ran than the humid air with no machine. No
doubt 'temperature' was slightly increased, but
'comfort' was vastly increased. And, especially, safety
from fungus regarding negatives and darkroom optics is
seriously compromised by high relative humidity.
Dryness is the best way to discourage fungus. (Plus,
among my many idiosyncrasies, is a loathing of mildew.
The smell of mildew is close to the smell of sulfur
dioxide in my estimation. Dry air doesn't support
mildew very well, at least not from the point of view
of the mildew...).

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Mark in Maine - 22 Nov 2004 16:51 GMT
>'comfort' was vastly increased. And, especially, safety
>from fungus regarding negatives and darkroom optics is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>regards,
>--le

I agree with Lloyd - My darkroom is in the basement, and without the
dehumidifier, there is a constant battle against mold and mildew -
with the dehumidifier, this is not an issue.  Since the darkroom is in
the basement, it tends to stay cool in the summer, although here in
Maine, we do not get intolerably hot summers.  Still, I prefer the
dryness, perhaps with a bit more heat to the humidity and its
attendent problems.
Andrew Price - 22 Nov 2004 20:40 GMT
>I agree with Lloyd - My darkroom is in the basement, and without the
>dehumidifier, there is a constant battle against mold and mildew -
>with the dehumidifier, this is not an issue.

Thanks to both of you - you've convinced me to get one.
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 23 Nov 2004 19:13 GMT
>>I agree with Lloyd - My darkroom is in the basement, and without the
>>dehumidifier, there is a constant battle against mold and mildew -
>>with the dehumidifier, this is not an issue.
>
>Thanks to both of you - you've convinced me to get one.

nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,

Check the Goodwill or Salvation Army shops in your
area. You might get lucky and find a dehumidifier very
cheap. Many times people discard one because it
'leaks', which usually means the plastic bucket inside
to catch the water has either shifted out of position
or developed a crack. It's quite rare for a
dehumidifier to fail because of some deep inner
mechanical reason.

If possible, stand the unit over a floor drain and
eliminate the inner bucket. Also if possible, get one
that has a bucket with an attachment for a garden hose.
The hose can be placed conveniently and out of the way,
albeit circuitously, so the machine can drain with no
attention.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 23 Nov 2004 19:07 GMT
... without the
>dehumidifier, there is a constant battle against mold and mildew -
>with the dehumidifier, this is not an issue.
...

nov2304 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, it's amazing what a difference a dehumidifier
makes. Mold and mildew are such persistent ... well,
I'm tempted to call them adversaries. It's wonderful
that a simple home appliance like a dehumidifier can
end the problem literally at the turn of a switch. And
it's a real bargain, too, considering the potential
loss of negatives and lenses, not to mention
electronics.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Louie Powell - 23 Oct 2004 03:53 GMT
> Hello.  I'm looking for a film (35mm format) dryer.  Buying one
> outright is too expensive for me.  So, it's down to a DIY solution.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thanks.

My wife and I recently built a new home, and after moving in I assigned
the task of building a new darkroom to me (ie, the lowest bidder).  When
I planned the darkroom, I anticipated that I would later build a film
dryer, and completed that project last winter.

I used 3/4" MDF to construct a 'closet', with plexiglass glazing in the
door so that I can see what is happening inside.  I used a small
computer muffin fan to pull air through a filter into the cabinet, and
then push it through a second (furnace type) filter into the main film
compartment.  I placed a 200w bulb in the air path inside the
compartment as a source of both light and heat.  The total cost was less
than $100, it was a fun project, it works very well, and it fits
perfectly into my darkroom.
McLeod - 23 Oct 2004 15:38 GMT
>My wife and I recently built a new home, and after moving in I assigned
>the task of building a new darkroom to me (ie, the lowest bidder).  When
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>than $100, it was a fun project, it works very well, and it fits
>perfectly into my darkroom.

What is the drying time for a 200 W bulb?  Is the fan at the bottom of
the cabinet?
Louie Powell - 23 Oct 2004 23:42 GMT
>>I used 3/4" MDF to construct a 'closet', with plexiglass glazing in
>>the door so that I can see what is happening inside.  I used a small
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What is the drying time for a 200 W bulb?  Is the fan at the bottom of
> the cabinet?

I put the fan at the top of the cabinet - draws air in through a louver
behind which I mounted a sheet of foam air conditioner filter.  The fan
compartment is separated from the film drying area by a second filter -
an ordinary furnace filter.  The bulb is mounted just below the furnace
filter so that the air stream passed the bulb.  Air exits the cabinet at
the bottom.

Drying time is about 30 minutes.
Tony Wingo - 31 Oct 2004 23:25 GMT
> I used 3/4" MDF to construct a 'closet', with plexiglass glazing in the
> door so that I can see what is happening inside.  I used a small
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> than $100, it was a fun project, it works very well, and it fits
> perfectly into my darkroom.

Sounds a lot like mine, except I used two muffin fans and a 300W bulb. I
didn't have much room, so mine is only four inches deep, and twelve
inches wide, which still allows me to dry 4-6 rolls of 35mm or 120.

-t
happyheathen - 07 Nov 2004 01:46 GMT
My first film dryer consisted of a 6' length of 4" ABS drain pipe and
a 2" "T" fitting (see local plumbing house (or one of those 'big
boxes' in the 'burbs)at the bottom.

The cap was a plate used to cover the outlet box on a ceiling light
fixture - a cheap stamping - replacements are easily found, with 2
small ring machine screws about 2" apart, with picture-hanging wire
between them - one film clip hooked to the (horizontal) wire, the
other (for weight, to prevent curling) hung down. A small hair dryer
fit snugly into the 2" 'T' - set on 'low', it could dry a 35mm roll in
a couple of hours (use squeegee tongs before inserting - it was
difficult to load (I had an interior stairwell, and could set the
thing upright at the proper height to top load.

The current setup is a framework of 2x2 furring strips with a 12"x48"
'shelf' from the suburban 'home improvement' chain (MDF with a hard
surface) as a door, and the head from an old 'bag-style' commercial
dryer (heater and blower unit) from a junk unit on ebay on top, with a
wall switch in a box for control). It is covered with a fine nylon
mesh-type fabric for dust control. There is a wire across the top of
the box for roll-film clips, and dowels (ends between 4p brads for
guides) with wooden clothes pins with a wire hook added to hold onto
the dowels for sheet film. Takes some time, but little money - a miter
box is real handy. It's about 6 1/2' tall, and 14" square.

Basically, all you need is a heat source, a dust-free vertical space,
and ventilation. Go wild.
 
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