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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Using Kodak Rapid Fix

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Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 04:10 GMT
I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
Pieter Litchfield - 20 Oct 2004 10:49 GMT
I believe most people re-use rapid fix until exhausted. In this case you
must mix two solutions - one for paper, one for film.
>I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 15:51 GMT
> I believe most people re-use rapid fix until exhausted. In this case you
> must mix two solutions - one for paper, one for film.
> >I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.

>"Pieter Litchfield" <pvcl@*nospam*plitch.com> wrote in message
news:Fwqdd.17657$l07.15994@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

I can't believe the bottles inside the box don't even say how much fluid are
in each. It just says 85 fl oz. on the outside of the box. They do state the
mixing ratios.
Tom Phillips - 20 Oct 2004 13:43 GMT
> I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.

It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.

If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.

You can fix for less time if you use rapid fix at
archival processing strength. Instead of 1:7 mix
at 1:3 or 1:4 (1+3 or 1+4) and fix prints for
a maximum of one minute rather than 3.

Most of the fixing takes place in the first 30
seconds for most papers. You should test your
paper's fix time to be sure.

Some recent discussion on this is in Dan Quinn's
threads

"Re: Sodium or Ammonium, Ilford's 5-10-5 Wash Stands"

"Ilford Abandons Archival Print Fix/Wash?"
Fountainhead - 26 Oct 2004 21:11 GMT
> > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
>
> It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.
>
> If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.

Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?

BTW, my method of mixing/using Rapid Fix was simply to mix the gallon at
film strength, then move 1/2 gallon to one jug (for film) and mix the
other 1/2 gallon with an additional 1/2 gallon of water (for paper). So
I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.
Michael A. Covington - 26 Oct 2004 22:38 GMT
> Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
> use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
> for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
> unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?

It fixes the paper faster, and then washes out more quickly.

Ilford promotes their non-hardening fixer because of this advantage.  But
Kodak Rapid Fix is just the same if you don't add the hardener.

Note that Kodak paper fixes more slowly than Ilford paper even in the same
fixer, because Kodak's emulsion is also harder.  I was bitten by this a few
years ago... was turning on the lights too early, before the paper finished
fixing, even though my technique had been fine with Ilford paper.

Signature

Clear skies,

Michael A. Covington
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html

Tom Phillips - 26 Oct 2004 23:11 GMT
> > Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to
> > use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener
> > for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely
> > unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?
>
> It fixes the paper faster, and then washes out more quickly.

The major reason I say no hardener is a print fixed in a
hardening bath will likely stain when toned. And hardener
does require more washing.

When I print I go right to the toner after fixing. No need
to wash first and a print hardener simply isn't necessary.

> Ilford promotes their non-hardening fixer because of this advantage.  But
> Kodak Rapid Fix is just the same if you don't add the hardener.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
> www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html
LR Kalajainen - 27 Oct 2004 11:37 GMT
>>>I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
>>>strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
> Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.

The selling point for hardener was that it guarded the emulsion of the
film/paper against scratches.  But in many years of leaving the hardener
out, I've never had damaged emulsions, even with fairly vigorous
handling.  And hardener does cause the emulsion to retain the fixer,
thus necessitating much longer washes, even with pre-wash treatment in
hypo-clearing agents.  Hardener also makes spotting prints much more
difficult.  The spotting fluid doesn't penetrate the emulsion as quickly
or as evenly as it does on a non-hardened print.  Your method of mixing
seems fine.  Just leave out the hardener.
Dan Quinn - 28 Oct 2004 09:52 GMT
>   Your method of mixing
>   seems fine.  Just leave out the hardener.

   Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
puzzled over that?
   I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate in whatever
volume of water to do the job.
   In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered
fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's
max is 2 grams/liter.
   Do you think I'm correct?                             Dan
Dan Quinn - 29 Oct 2004 10:16 GMT
> >   Your method of mixing
> >   seems fine.  Just leave out the hardener.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> max is 2 grams/liter.
>     Do you think I'm correct?                             Dan

 Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned
above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and
Ilford give no clue.
 I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be
sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength
1:31 with the ammonium.
 Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less
than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity.
 In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels.                Dan
Tom Phillips - 29 Oct 2004 10:37 GMT
> > >   Your method of mixing
> > >   seems fine.  Just leave out the hardener.
> >
> >     Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever
> > puzzled over that?

paper fixes faster than film...

> >     I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long
> > as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>   In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
> than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels.                Dan

I never thought of it as a matter of capacity, but of rapidity.
A. thio fixes faster than S. thio, and film strength fixes
faster than paper strength. This is also why when you use
film strength for paper fixes faster...
LR Kalajainen - 29 Oct 2004 11:46 GMT
I'd never thought about film strength vs. paper strength.  I'd always
assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it had something to do with fixing time,
but as I think about it, that doesn't make much sense.  Is there more
undissolved silver in a film emulsion than in paper?

If I were to mix a much weaker film strength solution what would be the
results on both time and capacity?  For film, I could see a one-shot
working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing
to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print.

>RE: dan.c.quinn@att.net (Dan Quinn) wrote
>  
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>  In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
>than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels.                Dan
Tom Phillips - 29 Oct 2004 12:12 GMT
snip..
>... For film, I could see a one-shot
> working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing
> to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print.

Which is what Dan does, if I understand. Inconvenience is
perhaps a state of mind if one is minimalist :-)

> >>>  Your method of mixing
> >>>  seems fine.  Just leave out the hardener.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> >  In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity
> >than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels.                Dan
C. Falise - 03 Nov 2004 00:15 GMT
hardener makes spotting of prints more difficult (spottone will just sit on
surface rather than penetrate) and increases wash time for adequate removal
of fixer (not so much of a problem if hypoclear is used).  it also tends to
make fiber-based paper curl up more which can make it difficult to handle.
i use fixer w hardener on work prints on rc.  finals get no hardener and
extra washing just to be safe.
film always gets hardener.
good luck and happy printing!
-c.

> > > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> > > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer.
> Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.
Uranium Committee - 20 Oct 2004 14:14 GMT
> I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.

No. Mix them separately. Don't use fixer for paper that has been used
for film. Take HALF of the contents and make 1/2 gallon of film fixer.
Take the other half and mix 1 gallon of paper fixer. NEVER use the
same fixer for both.
Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 16:58 GMT
> > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working
> > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Take the other half and mix 1 gallon of paper fixer. NEVER use the
> same fixer for both.

Use hardener in the film fixer but not the paper, or does that really
matter. I wanted to try the Rapid Fix to basically speed up my film fix
times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the
paper then.
The Wogster - 20 Oct 2004 17:41 GMT
>>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the
> paper then.

Many people don't bother with the hardener at all, if your careful with
wet film in the darkroom, you really don't need it with modern films.
Hardening does extend the wash times, it also does not work with all
rapid fixers.  Even 20 years ago, I didn't use a hardener, and never had
a problem with damaged film because of it.  I also used most chemicals
one-shot style.  Mix up a batch of fixer, pour whats needed into the
film tank, do a roll and pitch it, a little more expensive, but knowing
every roll had fresh developer and fresh fixer meant that I didn't need
a stop bath, and that results would be consistant.  The oldest film
archive shows that this worked, even though the films are over 20 years
old, no staining or problems due to exhausted chemistries.

With paper, I would put half what I needed into the tray and add water
to get what I needed, process say 10 sheets of paper, then pitch it and
mix a new batch.

W
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:28 GMT
> >>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> W

I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small
batches.
The Wogster - 21 Oct 2004 04:23 GMT
>>>>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small
> batches.

Unlike developer, fixer is not affected much by air left in the bottle,
so if you mix a large batch, it should keep well, in a tightly capped
bottle, some people prefer glass for larger batches, as glass does not
"breathe", while some plastics do.  Like I said though, mix it as
recommended for film strength, then mix that 1:1 for paper.   Don't use
fixer for paper that you have used for film.....  I always had best
success though, with 1 shot chemistries, no trying to remember how many
rolls/sheets went through a bottle of chemistries, every batch got fresh
chemistries.

W
Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 16:44 GMT
> > I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small
> > batches.
>
> Unlike developer, fixer is not affected much by air left in the bottle,
> so if you mix a large batch, it should keep well,

The problem with mixing a large batch of fix (and Alan is
using rapid fix so no need to mix an entire package) is
using and storing over a longer time period until the fix
is exhausted will cause a precipitate in the storage bottle.
very hard to clean.

If you process a large number of prints or films this isn't
an issue. But if you only process small batches of films or
prints it's best and easy to simply mix only what you need
from the concentrate. The ratio/amounts are simple: 1+4 for
film and 1+7 for paper (or 1+4 archival short fix.)

I.e., 1 ounce/ml fix concentrate plus 4 ounces/ml water.
Uranium Committee - 20 Oct 2004 23:46 GMT
> > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>  news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the
> paper then.

No. Mix TWO batches. DO NOT use one kind for both. Kodak explicitly
says not to do this. You should not be using powder fixer anyway. I
use the hardener for both film and paper. It does not harm anything.
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:31 GMT
> > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >  news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> says not to do this. You should not be using powder fixer anyway. I
> use the hardener for both film and paper. It does not harm anything.

What I was getting at was...since I'm going to need two bottles/jugs
anyway... I could just as easily use Rapid Fix exclusively for my
film....and use Kodak Fixer for my paper.
Uranium Committee - 21 Oct 2004 14:54 GMT
> > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>  news:<IWvdd.800891$gE.702490@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> anyway... I could just as easily use Rapid Fix exclusively for my
> film....and use Kodak Fixer for my paper.

Don't use Kodak powdered fixer at all, for any reason. Rapid Fixer is
better all around. It has much higher capacity and works much faster.
Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 00:24 GMT
> > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the
> paper then.

Ignore the troll. And _don't_ mix up the whole bottle. Mix up
(from the concentrate) only what you will need short term.

Do not use the same for paper as for film, but concentrates
last longer than working solutions...

Also, many modern films don't require hardener, but it never
hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it.
(Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.)
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:32 GMT
> > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it.
> (Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.)

What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on
paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different?
Frank Pittel - 21 Oct 2004 05:02 GMT
: > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
: > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
: > hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it.
: > (Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.)

: What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on
: paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different?

The biggest difference in my never humble opinion is that the rapid fix comes
as a liquid concentrate and the classic Kodak fix comes as a powder. With the
rapid fix you also have the choice of adding or not adding the hardener.

I started using the rapid fix when I started a no powder policy in my darkroom.

Signature

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 16:31 GMT
> > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>...
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on
> paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different?

Rapid fix is ammonium thiosulfate, and fixes at a faster rate.

Just follow the instructions unless you choose the archival
dilution. At 1+3 or 1+4 you only need to fix 1 minute maximum
in a single bath fixer or 30 seconds each in a two bath fix.
Be sure you monitor the fixer using a hypo check.

I believe it's still 2-3 minutes each in sodium thiosulfate
fixing baths (Kodak F5) at 1:7
Richard Knoppow - 21 Oct 2004 15:27 GMT
>> I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I
>> mix it at working
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> use the
> same fixer for both.

  This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is
not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because
the ammonium thiosulfate is very much less senstive to
soluble iodide from film emulsions. Iodide is a powerful
retarder of fixing. One reason a two bath fixing system is
desirable is that the iodide mostly comes out in the first
bath leaving the second one working without any retarding.
  Very small amounts of Iodide in fixing baths have some
interesting properties. Adding Iodide to the fixing bath is
standard practice for microfilm processing because it gives
considerable protection to oxidation of the image.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Oct 2004 19:47 GMT
> Very small amounts of Iodide in fixing baths have some
> interesting properties. Adding Iodide to the fixing bath is
> standard practice for microfilm processing because it gives
> considerable protection to oxidation of the image.

Would a post-fix iodide rinse convey the same protection?

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Dan Quinn - 22 Oct 2004 00:03 GMT
>    This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is
> not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because
> the ammonium thiosulfate is very much less senstive to
> soluble iodide ...

 I've read that the amount of silver iodide in IODIZED film
runs two to three percent. Of course non-iodized films have no
silver iodide. From my reading I've found that silver bromide
is by and far the main halide of silver in films.
 Papers, save for one such as Azo which has silver chloride
only, contain silver chloride and or bromide. I think it safe
to say that most projection speed papers contain a mix of
the two. Kentmere claims a little silver iodide in one
of their paper emulsions.

> Iodide is a powerful retarder of fixing.

 The ammonium ion will complex with silver in the presence
of iodide but only to a very slight degree. The thiosulfate ion
will complex with silver in the presence of iodide very much
more so.
 All of the silver halides, chloride, bromide, and iodide,
are considered insoluable; the less so in that order. Only the
thiosulfate ion's great affinity for silver in the presence
of any or all of the halides makes possible silver gelatin
photography as we know it.
 If anybody doubts it, fix with fertilizer, ammonium sulfate.
That and ammonium chloride may work well with Azo.        Dan
Dan Quinn - 22 Oct 2004 22:33 GMT
> >    This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is
> > not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>   If anybody doubts it, fix with fertilizer, ammonium sulfate.
> That and ammonium chloride may work well with Azo.        Dan

One correction: I doubt that ammonium chloride, by itself, will
work as well as a fix for Azo as the sulfate. Silver sulfate
is slightly soluble.                                        Dan
 
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