Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004
Using Kodak Rapid Fix
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Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 04:10 GMT I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
Pieter Litchfield - 20 Oct 2004 10:49 GMT I believe most people re-use rapid fix until exhausted. In this case you must mix two solutions - one for paper, one for film.
>I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 15:51 GMT > I believe most people re-use rapid fix until exhausted. In this case you > must mix two solutions - one for paper, one for film. > >I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx.
>"Pieter Litchfield" <pvcl@*nospam*plitch.com> wrote in message news:Fwqdd.17657$l07.15994@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
I can't believe the bottles inside the box don't even say how much fluid are in each. It just says 85 fl oz. on the outside of the box. They do state the mixing ratios.
Tom Phillips - 20 Oct 2004 13:43 GMT > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper.
If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper.
You can fix for less time if you use rapid fix at archival processing strength. Instead of 1:7 mix at 1:3 or 1:4 (1+3 or 1+4) and fix prints for a maximum of one minute rather than 3.
Most of the fixing takes place in the first 30 seconds for most papers. You should test your paper's fix time to be sure.
Some recent discussion on this is in Dan Quinn's threads
"Re: Sodium or Ammonium, Ilford's 5-10-5 Wash Stands"
"Ilford Abandons Archival Print Fix/Wash?"
Fountainhead - 26 Oct 2004 21:11 GMT > > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. > > It tells you on the box how to mix for film and paper. > > If you choose to add the hardener, do not use for paper. Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way?
BTW, my method of mixing/using Rapid Fix was simply to mix the gallon at film strength, then move 1/2 gallon to one jug (for film) and mix the other 1/2 gallon with an additional 1/2 gallon of water (for paper). So I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer. Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing.
Michael A. Covington - 26 Oct 2004 22:38 GMT > Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to > use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener > for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely > unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way? It fixes the paper faster, and then washes out more quickly.
Ilford promotes their non-hardening fixer because of this advantage. But Kodak Rapid Fix is just the same if you don't add the hardener.
Note that Kodak paper fixes more slowly than Ilford paper even in the same fixer, because Kodak's emulsion is also harder. I was bitten by this a few years ago... was turning on the lights too early, before the paper finished fixing, even though my technique had been fine with Ilford paper.
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Michael A. Covington Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html
Tom Phillips - 26 Oct 2004 23:11 GMT > > Sorry to dredge this thread up again, but why is everyone saying NOT to > > use the hardener for paper? Kodak's instructions call for the hardener > > for both film and paper, and I've always used it this way. It it merely > > unnecessary, or actually detrimental in some way? > > It fixes the paper faster, and then washes out more quickly. The major reason I say no hardener is a print fixed in a hardening bath will likely stain when toned. And hardener does require more washing.
When I print I go right to the toner after fixing. No need to wash first and a print hardener simply isn't necessary.
> Ilford promotes their non-hardening fixer because of this advantage. But > Kodak Rapid Fix is just the same if you don't add the hardener. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur > www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html LR Kalajainen - 27 Oct 2004 11:37 GMT >>>I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working >>>strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer. > Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing. The selling point for hardener was that it guarded the emulsion of the film/paper against scratches. But in many years of leaving the hardener out, I've never had damaged emulsions, even with fairly vigorous handling. And hardener does cause the emulsion to retain the fixer, thus necessitating much longer washes, even with pre-wash treatment in hypo-clearing agents. Hardener also makes spotting prints much more difficult. The spotting fluid doesn't penetrate the emulsion as quickly or as evenly as it does on a non-hardened print. Your method of mixing seems fine. Just leave out the hardener.
Dan Quinn - 28 Oct 2004 09:52 GMT > Your method of mixing > seems fine. Just leave out the hardener. Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever puzzled over that? I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate in whatever volume of water to do the job. In a nut shell film will tolerate a much more silvered fix than paper. Ilford says 8 to 10 grams/liter while paper's max is 2 grams/liter. Do you think I'm correct? Dan
Dan Quinn - 29 Oct 2004 10:16 GMT > > Your method of mixing > > seems fine. Just leave out the hardener. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > max is 2 grams/liter. > Do you think I'm correct? Dan Another thing I've puzzled over is that per liter mentioned above. A liter of what? They never say. Two sources, Haist and Ilford give no clue. I've concluded it is just that; per liter of fixer. It can be sodium or ammonium, 1:3, 4, 7, 9, 24, or even my print strength 1:31 with the ammonium. Safe levels of silver in all but very dilute fixers are less than either S. or A. Thiosulfate's capacity. In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan
Tom Phillips - 29 Oct 2004 10:37 GMT > > > Your method of mixing > > > seems fine. Just leave out the hardener. > > > > Why a film strength AND a paper strength? Have you ever > > puzzled over that? paper fixes faster than film...
> > I know that fixer at almost any dilution will fix as long > > as there is enough of the A. or S. Thiosulfate, in whatever [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity > than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan I never thought of it as a matter of capacity, but of rapidity. A. thio fixes faster than S. thio, and film strength fixes faster than paper strength. This is also why when you use film strength for paper fixes faster...
LR Kalajainen - 29 Oct 2004 11:46 GMT I'd never thought about film strength vs. paper strength. I'd always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it had something to do with fixing time, but as I think about it, that doesn't make much sense. Is there more undissolved silver in a film emulsion than in paper?
If I were to mix a much weaker film strength solution what would be the results on both time and capacity? For film, I could see a one-shot working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print.
>RE: dan.c.quinn@att.net (Dan Quinn) wrote > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity >than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan Tom Phillips - 29 Oct 2004 12:12 GMT snip..
>... For film, I could see a one-shot > working well, but it would be rather inconvenient for paper processing > to have to dump the tray and refill it after each print. Which is what Dan does, if I understand. Inconvenience is perhaps a state of mind if one is minimalist :-)
> >>> Your method of mixing > >>> seems fine. Just leave out the hardener. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > In practice that explains why A. Thio. has no more capacity > >than S. Thio.; because of those safe levels. Dan C. Falise - 03 Nov 2004 00:15 GMT hardener makes spotting of prints more difficult (spottone will just sit on surface rather than penetrate) and increases wash time for adequate removal of fixer (not so much of a problem if hypoclear is used). it also tends to make fiber-based paper curl up more which can make it difficult to handle. i use fixer w hardener on work prints on rc. finals get no hardener and extra washing just to be safe. film always gets hardener. good luck and happy printing! -c.
> > > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > > > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'd end up with 1/2 gallon of film fixer, and 1 gallon of paper fixer. > Seems easy to me, but then maybe I don't know what I'm doing. Uranium Committee - 20 Oct 2004 14:14 GMT > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. No. Mix them separately. Don't use fixer for paper that has been used for film. Take HALF of the contents and make 1/2 gallon of film fixer. Take the other half and mix 1 gallon of paper fixer. NEVER use the same fixer for both.
Alan Smithee - 20 Oct 2004 16:58 GMT > > I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I mix it at working > > strength for fixing film do I just dilute it 1:1 for paper? Thx. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Take the other half and mix 1 gallon of paper fixer. NEVER use the > same fixer for both. Use hardener in the film fixer but not the paper, or does that really matter. I wanted to try the Rapid Fix to basically speed up my film fix times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the paper then.
The Wogster - 20 Oct 2004 17:41 GMT >>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the > paper then. Many people don't bother with the hardener at all, if your careful with wet film in the darkroom, you really don't need it with modern films. Hardening does extend the wash times, it also does not work with all rapid fixers. Even 20 years ago, I didn't use a hardener, and never had a problem with damaged film because of it. I also used most chemicals one-shot style. Mix up a batch of fixer, pour whats needed into the film tank, do a roll and pitch it, a little more expensive, but knowing every roll had fresh developer and fresh fixer meant that I didn't need a stop bath, and that results would be consistant. The oldest film archive shows that this worked, even though the films are over 20 years old, no staining or problems due to exhausted chemistries.
With paper, I would put half what I needed into the tray and add water to get what I needed, process say 10 sheets of paper, then pitch it and mix a new batch.
W
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:28 GMT > >>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > W I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small batches.
The Wogster - 21 Oct 2004 04:23 GMT >>>>"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small > batches. Unlike developer, fixer is not affected much by air left in the bottle, so if you mix a large batch, it should keep well, in a tightly capped bottle, some people prefer glass for larger batches, as glass does not "breathe", while some plastics do. Like I said though, mix it as recommended for film strength, then mix that 1:1 for paper. Don't use fixer for paper that you have used for film..... I always had best success though, with 1 shot chemistries, no trying to remember how many rolls/sheets went through a bottle of chemistries, every batch got fresh chemistries.
W
Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 16:44 GMT > > I'm trying to figure out what the ratio of Solution A to water is for small > > batches. > > Unlike developer, fixer is not affected much by air left in the bottle, > so if you mix a large batch, it should keep well, The problem with mixing a large batch of fix (and Alan is using rapid fix so no need to mix an entire package) is using and storing over a longer time period until the fix is exhausted will cause a precipitate in the storage bottle. very hard to clean.
If you process a large number of prints or films this isn't an issue. But if you only process small batches of films or prints it's best and easy to simply mix only what you need from the concentrate. The ratio/amounts are simple: 1+4 for film and 1+7 for paper (or 1+4 archival short fix.)
I.e., 1 ounce/ml fix concentrate plus 4 ounces/ml water.
Uranium Committee - 20 Oct 2004 23:46 GMT > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the > paper then. No. Mix TWO batches. DO NOT use one kind for both. Kodak explicitly says not to do this. You should not be using powder fixer anyway. I use the hardener for both film and paper. It does not harm anything.
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:31 GMT > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > says not to do this. You should not be using powder fixer anyway. I > use the hardener for both film and paper. It does not harm anything. What I was getting at was...since I'm going to need two bottles/jugs anyway... I could just as easily use Rapid Fix exclusively for my film....and use Kodak Fixer for my paper.
Uranium Committee - 21 Oct 2004 14:54 GMT > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:<IWvdd.800891$gE.702490@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > anyway... I could just as easily use Rapid Fix exclusively for my > film....and use Kodak Fixer for my paper. Don't use Kodak powdered fixer at all, for any reason. Rapid Fixer is better all around. It has much higher capacity and works much faster.
Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 00:24 GMT > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > times. If I'm mixing two batches I might as well use regular fixer on the > paper then. Ignore the troll. And _don't_ mix up the whole bottle. Mix up (from the concentrate) only what you will need short term.
Do not use the same for paper as for film, but concentrates last longer than working solutions...
Also, many modern films don't require hardener, but it never hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it. (Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.)
Alan Smithee - 21 Oct 2004 03:32 GMT > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it. > (Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.) What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different?
Frank Pittel - 21 Oct 2004 05:02 GMT : > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message : > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] : > hurts to add hardener to film fix and _some_ films still need it. : > (Tri-X, I think is one according to Kodak.)
: What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on : paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different? The biggest difference in my never humble opinion is that the rapid fix comes as a liquid concentrate and the classic Kodak fix comes as a powder. With the rapid fix you also have the choice of adding or not adding the hardener.
I started using the rapid fix when I started a no powder policy in my darkroom.
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Tom Phillips - 21 Oct 2004 16:31 GMT > > > > "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote in message > > > news:<jGkdd.795552$gE.258028@pd7tw3no>... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > What's the difference between using Rapid Fix or Kodak Fixer (classic) on > paper assuming I'm ignoring Solution B. Are the times much different? Rapid fix is ammonium thiosulfate, and fixes at a faster rate.
Just follow the instructions unless you choose the archival dilution. At 1+3 or 1+4 you only need to fix 1 minute maximum in a single bath fixer or 30 seconds each in a two bath fix. Be sure you monitor the fixer using a hypo check.
I believe it's still 2-3 minutes each in sodium thiosulfate fixing baths (Kodak F5) at 1:7
Richard Knoppow - 21 Oct 2004 15:27 GMT >> I have the rapid fix kit which makes a US gallon. If I >> mix it at working [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > use the > same fixer for both. This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because the ammonium thiosulfate is very much less senstive to soluble iodide from film emulsions. Iodide is a powerful retarder of fixing. One reason a two bath fixing system is desirable is that the iodide mostly comes out in the first bath leaving the second one working without any retarding. Very small amounts of Iodide in fixing baths have some interesting properties. Adding Iodide to the fixing bath is standard practice for microfilm processing because it gives considerable protection to oxidation of the image.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Oct 2004 19:47 GMT > Very small amounts of Iodide in fixing baths have some > interesting properties. Adding Iodide to the fixing bath is > standard practice for microfilm processing because it gives > considerable protection to oxidation of the image. Would a post-fix iodide rinse convey the same protection?
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Dan Quinn - 22 Oct 2004 00:03 GMT > This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is > not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because > the ammonium thiosulfate is very much less senstive to > soluble iodide ... I've read that the amount of silver iodide in IODIZED film runs two to three percent. Of course non-iodized films have no silver iodide. From my reading I've found that silver bromide is by and far the main halide of silver in films. Papers, save for one such as Azo which has silver chloride only, contain silver chloride and or bromide. I think it safe to say that most projection speed papers contain a mix of the two. Kentmere claims a little silver iodide in one of their paper emulsions.
> Iodide is a powerful retarder of fixing. The ammonium ion will complex with silver in the presence of iodide but only to a very slight degree. The thiosulfate ion will complex with silver in the presence of iodide very much more so. All of the silver halides, chloride, bromide, and iodide, are considered insoluable; the less so in that order. Only the thiosulfate ion's great affinity for silver in the presence of any or all of the halides makes possible silver gelatin photography as we know it. If anybody doubts it, fix with fertilizer, ammonium sulfate. That and ammonium chloride may work well with Azo. Dan
Dan Quinn - 22 Oct 2004 22:33 GMT > > This is good advice for sodium thiosulfate fixer but is > > not necessary for ammonium thiosulfate (rapid) fixer because [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > If anybody doubts it, fix with fertilizer, ammonium sulfate. > That and ammonium chloride may work well with Azo. Dan One correction: I doubt that ammonium chloride, by itself, will work as well as a fix for Azo as the sulfate. Silver sulfate is slightly soluble. Dan
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