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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / November 2004

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Anybody try the defective Efke film from J&C?

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Nick Zentena - 15 Oct 2004 21:41 GMT
     I needed some film and noticed the defective stuff. I'm wondering
if anybody has tried it yet? I've added two boxes to my order so I guess
I'll know sooner or later.

    Nick
Donald Qualls - 15 Oct 2004 22:37 GMT
>      I needed some film and noticed the defective stuff. I'm wondering
> if anybody has tried it yet? I've added two boxes to my order so I guess
> I'll know sooner or later.

I'm not seeing this -- what format?  Where is it on their site (doesn't
seem to show in "odds and ends" where one might expect such)?  Defective
how, like the Classic sheet film that was cut oversize and wouldn't fit
most holders, or something else?

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Nick Zentena - 15 Oct 2004 22:59 GMT
> I'm not seeing this -- what format?  Where is it on their site (doesn't
> seem to show in "odds and ends" where one might expect such)?  Defective
> how, like the Classic sheet film that was cut oversize and wouldn't fit
> most holders, or something else?

 It was right on the front page when I went to order. I think 5x7,8x10 and
a couple of ULF. The 7x17 is affordable at those prices. I'm not really sure
what's wrong with it but it's not a size issue. Something is wrong with some
of the sheets. They mention it showing up mostly in sky areas.

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=48

 Figure if nothing else it's good to see how the film works for me. If
it's okay I can get some of the good stuff later. If I don't like it's not
that much of an issue.

    Nick
Donald Qualls - 16 Oct 2004 02:28 GMT
>>I'm not seeing this -- what format?  Where is it on their site (doesn't
>>seem to show in "odds and ends" where one might expect such)?  Defective
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>      Nick

Ah, inch sizes only.  Won't fit my 9x12 cm film sheaths.  Same problem I
had with the slightly oversize 4x5 and 8x10 J&C Classic they had a while
back.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Nick Zentena - 16 Oct 2004 13:08 GMT
> Ah, inch sizes only.  Won't fit my 9x12 cm film sheaths.  Same problem I
> had with the slightly oversize 4x5 and 8x10 J&C Classic they had a while
> back.

 The oversized stuff needs to be cut down to 4x5. Nothing stopping you from
cutting a little extra and turning it into 9x12.

    Nick
Donald Qualls - 16 Oct 2004 14:53 GMT
>>Ah, inch sizes only.  Won't fit my 9x12 cm film sheaths.  Same problem I
>>had with the slightly oversize 4x5 and 8x10 J&C Classic they had a while
>>back.
>
>   The oversized stuff needs to be cut down to 4x5. Nothing stopping you from
> cutting a little extra and turning it into 9x12.

Other than the fact that it's a little tricky to operate my cutter in a
dark bag, no...

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Jim Phelps - 16 Oct 2004 15:59 GMT
> Other than the fact that it's a little tricky to operate my cutter in a
> dark bag, no...

Fingers?  You don't need no stinkin' fingers...:~)
David Nebenzahl - 16 Oct 2004 20:36 GMT
On 10/16/2004 6:53 AM Donald Qualls spake thus:

>>>Ah, inch sizes only.  Won't fit my 9x12 cm film sheaths.  Same problem I
>>>had with the slightly oversize 4x5 and 8x10 J&C Classic they had a while
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Other than the fact that it's a little tricky to operate my cutter in a
> dark bag, no...

Try a paper cutter in a dark room. I do it all the time. (You just need to set
up some stops on the bed of the cutter.)

Signature

Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a
really easy way: stop participating in it.

- Noam Chomsky

Donald Qualls - 17 Oct 2004 00:19 GMT
> On 10/16/2004 6:53 AM Donald Qualls spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Try a paper cutter in a dark room. I do it all the time. (You just need
> to set up some stops on the bed of the cutter.)

If I had a darkroom, I'd have done that already in order to be able to
use faster films, like Tri-X or HP5+ (or even Classic 400), in my plate
cameras.  In my current house, it will be very difficult even to get the
bathroom completely dark -- it has a large window that will be tricky to
cover adequately.  And the only closets with tight doors are full of
shelves and very small.

I've long since figured out how to set up the stops on the cutter.  I
just need a place to work.  Now that the big move is over, I'll have to
check if there is a rental darkroom in the area, or one at a community
college I can gain access to.  Cutting film is one of the things that's
hardest to do in a changing bag; everything else I do (short of
printing) I've managed very well.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Dan Quinn - 18 Oct 2004 10:01 GMT
> -- it has a large window that will be tricky to
> cover adequately.

 I fashioned a baffle sheet for a small window. The sheet is
painted black on the window side and overlaps. Only a minute
is needed to put in place or take it down. An inset sheet
may do.
 A very temporary fix was a black fabric drape.          Dan
John - 18 Oct 2004 11:39 GMT
>> -- it has a large window that will be tricky to
>> cover adequately.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>may do.
>  A very temporary fix was a black fabric drape.          Dan

    I use foamcore. If you really want to ensue that no light
makes it in put some aluminum foil in front of the foamcore and allow
it a couple of inches past the edge of the foamcore.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Donald Qualls - 18 Oct 2004 11:57 GMT
>>-- it has a large window that will be tricky to
>>cover adequately.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> may do.
>   A very temporary fix was a black fabric drape.          Dan

The window in this bathroom has curtains on rods, which at a minimum
would have to be taken down for a drape to offer a good light seal, and
since I don't own the house, I'm reluctant to put up anything that
requires making (more) holes in the wallpaper and wall board.  An insert
is what I was thinking of, but there's little depth inside the frame
(making a friction fit undependable) and such an insert makes
ventilation a problem (1970s vintage house without exhaust fan).  Still
working on it, I'll eventually come up with something (a light trapped
exhaust fan on an insert, held in place by a weight hung out of the
upper sash, perhaps).  I'd like to get it dark enough to change film
(hence this digression, because that would let me cut film on a paper
cutter, etc.), which is rather darker than the minimum needed for
careful, quick enlarging.

Weather stripping on the door, and a throw (like a "door boa" that was
popular in older houses during the 1970s "energy crisis" years) to cover
the crack at the bottom.  And then, of course, I need to find room for a
4x5 enlarger in a bathroom six feet wide including sinks and shower, and
figure out where to put a tray line and still have room for a wash
basin.  I'll get there, but it'll be a couple months, at minimum...

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Dan Quinn - 08 Nov 2004 01:10 GMT
> >   I fashioned a baffle sheet for a small window. The sheet is
> > painted black on the window side and overlaps. Only a minute
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>   ventilation a problem ... a light trapped
>   exhaust fan on an insert ...

   Ventilation is YOUR problem #1. That is unquestionably a
hurdle some who would otherwise take up silver gelatin processing
never clear. I did'nt know where that notion ever originated. I
spent years using the standard acid process in labs where it
never existed. I'm not sure I even heard of a ventilated
darkroom untill I began reading posts on this NG.
   Now at home in a small bathroom darkroom I know why those
who NEED an acid process need ventilation. How? I know because
four years ago I waded back into darkroom work using the standard
acid process. The fumes and oder took no time filling the house.
   I'm not very much bothered by the fumes and oder but I did
happen upon non-acid processing. After considerable research
I deceided it was safe to try. The darkroom and house are
now more livable for my keeping all solutions neutral
to alkaline.
   Any of the usuall processes can be done ventless if using
non-acid chemistry.
   I think you'll be pleasantly surprised using the non-acid
way of processing. Skip hurdle #1.                            Dan

>    
> Weather stripping on the door, and a throw
> I need to find room for a 4x5 enlarger in a bathroom
> six feet wide...a tray line ...
The Wogster - 08 Nov 2004 14:22 GMT
>>>  I fashioned a baffle sheet for a small window. The sheet is
>>>painted black on the window side and overlaps. Only a minute
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>     I think you'll be pleasantly surprised using the non-acid
> way of processing. Skip hurdle #1.                            Dan

Ventilation in a bathroom is often very easy, the same fan used for
removing the moisture from the mornings shower, should work equally well
 for removing the fumes from a photographic process.  Simply turn on
the fan, it will negative pressure the bathroom slightly, so all fumes
should go out the vent, while fresh air is drawn in from the rest of the
house.

You just need to make sure that the bathroom vent is on a separate
switch from the light, easy to fix if it isn't.

W
happyheathen - 09 Nov 2004 06:53 GMT
A bathroom ventilation fan is/can be great for moving air OUT of the
room - the problem arises when you try to make the room light-tight -
building codes usually require EITHER an openable window OR an exhaust
fan - it yours has a window, it's easy to make a light-trap - but one
opening can work either an inlet or an outlet - to get decent
ventilation, you need both.
Look up 'light trap' and see how you can make one or two work for you.
I do not use acids, but I do have both a light trap on the the door
and an exhaust fan.
You could get a real, live chemical respirator, but those require
constant replacement of filters.

What kind of intake/exhaust is in the bathroom?

An old-fashioned casement window (both upper and lower frames are
moveable) would be perfect - use a fan on one for either intake or
exhaust, the other to perform the opposite - a simple matter that can
easily be reversed. If you have only an exhaust fan, you will need to
come up with an intake - I cut a hole in the door of the room I use as
a darkroom and fabricated a light trap to cover it. I (or somebody)
will need to replace the door to restore the room for normal use.
The Wogster - 09 Nov 2004 17:37 GMT
> A bathroom ventilation fan is/can be great for moving air OUT of the
> room - the problem arises when you try to make the room light-tight -
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> What kind of intake/exhaust is in the bathroom?

It should be an exhaust fan, and most of them involve a metal or plastic
pipe to vent outdoors, it's usually the last piece of piping involved
with construction, because it can be routed around other pipes and
things, without affecting the flow much.  Often a couple of bends us
sufficient to make it light tight.  If it isn't and you can access the
space above the ceiling, like in the attic then perfect.  Simply cut the
pipe, use an elbow to add a 90 degree bend, then add another so that the
pipe is now headed the same direction, but shifted over, add two more
elbows to shidt it back on course.  Attach the elbows to each other, and
paint the inside flat black.  Attach to the original pipe, since light
travels in a straight line, except through a lens, you will have solved
the problem.  You could also attach this to the outside, where the pipe
exits the wall, or attach something similar to the fan itself.

Another option, get a piece of the filter material used in room
air-conditioners, cut 2 or three pieces the size of the pipe, remove the
fan and put a couple in, seperated by about 1 or 2 inches.  Tie or tape
a piece of string or wire to them first, with a loop in the end, so you
can pull out the fan, and replace them, once in a while, as dust will
clog your light "filter".

W
Dan Quinn - 09 Nov 2004 23:50 GMT
RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>

   I think a lot of this NG's readers have had the words vent,
ventilate, ventilation, ventilated, ventilating, and exhaust,
exhausting, exhausted, etc, drilled into their heads to such
an extent that a darkroom is now a forced air ventilated
room with no lights.
   Save for the very hyper-sensitive few and for any who may
engage in some exotic, quite toxic/oderiforous fume producing
process, the number of air changes per minute can be ignored.
   I've the impression that some have the impression that
darkroom work is dangerous; poisen gases, toxic solutions.
   Emulsion incorrporated hardeners are now the norm. If acid
stop and fix are a bother the non-acid process will do just
as well. If ventilation was not needed in the past it is
even less needed today.                                    Dan
Tom Phillips - 10 Nov 2004 05:32 GMT
> RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> engage in some exotic, quite toxic/oderiforous fume producing
> process, the number of air changes per minute can be ignored.

But some of us maybe just like fresh air?

>     I've the impression that some have the impression that
> darkroom work is dangerous; poisen gases, toxic solutions.

There are occasional toxic fumes in the average darkroom.
Cleaners, for one. Also when mixing powered chems some
chemical powder inevitably gets into the air. An adequate
air flow is useful.

>     Emulsion incorrporated hardeners are now the norm. If acid
> stop and fix are a bother the non-acid process will do just
> as well. If ventilation was not needed in the past it is
> even less needed today.  

I've disagreed with you about this before and I disagree now.
Exhaust systems (whether filtering the air in or out) also
helps keep the darkroom temp and humidity even and cool in
addition to helping keep the dust level down.
The Wogster - 10 Nov 2004 14:09 GMT
> RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> as well. If ventilation was not needed in the past it is
> even less needed today.

Most if not all photographic chemicals are recommended, by the
manufacturer to be used in a well ventilated area.  It also depends on
which process, C-41 and E-6 do not have acid free versions. C-41 has a
step that contains formaldehyde.  Formaldehyde  is dangerous enough that
if it gets spilled during cartage you need to call in a hazardous
chemical cleanup specialist to clean it up and evacuate the building
while waiting for that specialist to arrive.  I know, I work for a
courier, and to shut down a 150 truck depot to clean up a spill, means
that is not something to play with.

Besides, it costs $25 - $100 to go from a non-vented darkroom to a well
vented darkroom.  Considering the cost of health care, risking your
health for $100 is what I would consider not-smart.

W
m - 11 Nov 2004 19:26 GMT
>RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>as well. If ventilation was not needed in the past it is
>even less needed today.                                    Dan

nov1104 from Lloyd Erlick,

Everything you say is true.

Non-acid single-tray processing with 'plain' fixer is
less work, easier to carry out, and capable of
achieving rigourous standards of print (and negative)
production. Compared to regular processing, it
compromises nothing if proper procedure is followed; it
reduces overall labor and reduces risk of print
contamination by removing anything that touches the
face of the print while it is wet.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

The Wogster - 12 Nov 2004 15:28 GMT
>>RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> contamination by removing anything that touches the
> face of the print while it is wet.

Just one problem, it would take me 100 years to use a 25Kg bag of sodium
thiosulphate and I have nowhere to put it.  Funny that nobody decided to
make a commercial version: Uncle Ansel's Plain Old Fashioned
Non-Hardening Fixer comes in a glass jar like one of those old fashioned
preserves jars with a plastic scoop inside.

Now all we need is an acid-free colour process!  Preferably one that
uses Uncle Ansel's Plain Old Fashioned Fixer!

W
m - 13 Nov 2004 10:34 GMT
>>>RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>W

nov1304 from Lloyd Erlick,

What an idea! Surely Kodak could reverse its slide with
this one! It's a natural product, comes in a jar ...
maybe Orville Redenbacher would help promote it ...

I was surprised how quickly a hundred pounds of sodium
thiosulfate went by. I've been using it at around fifty
pounds a year - a pound a week ... yikes ...

regrds,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

The Wogster - 13 Nov 2004 16:36 GMT
>>>>RE: The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca>
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> this one! It's a natural product, comes in a jar ...
> maybe Orville Redenbacher would help promote it ...

Naw, Toronto actor Steve Smith's TV character would be a much better
spokesman, along with Don Cherry's dog.....

> I was surprised how quickly a hundred pounds of sodium
> thiosulfate went by. I've been using it at around fifty
> pounds a year - a pound a week ... yikes ...

I see from your telephone area code you are in Toronto, as am I, so
where do you get it from?  Do they sell smaller amounts.  Feel free to
reply off list.  I don't do print processing, no darkroom, want to get
back into film processing though, hmmm cafenol for developer and plain
old fixer for fixing, sounds like a plan.

W
Lloyd Usenet-Erlick - 15 Nov 2004 14:40 GMT
...
>> I was surprised how quickly a hundred pounds of sodium
>> thiosulfate went by. I've been using it at around fifty
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>W

nov1504 from Lloyd Erlick,

I buy sodium thiosulfate anhydrous and sodium sulfite
anhydrous from:

Signal Chemical
12 Carlaw St.
Toronto
416-461-8181

They like cash. Phone ahead so they expect you. They
might be weird on the phone, but it doesn't matter. The
chemist there is named Stan and he is extremely
sympathetic to photogs. He is also very competent, and
will want to talk to anyone buying chemicals if he
hasn't met them before. Their front door does not have
the word 'Chemicals'. They will only sell full
container/bag sizes. Hypo is a hundred pounds, sulfite
is twenty five kilograms. The unit cost savings is well
worth the effort, if one has the space to store things.

Also, in Toronto,

Nymoc chemical supply   
24 McGee Street
Toronto   
M4M 2K9
(416) 465-1929

This outfit is excellent, but not for chemicals that
should be very cheap in large containers. For the more
unusual, small quantity things like potassium iodide
they are fine. They once sold me some bad glycin and
made no fuss about it, and refunded cash. They're fine
to deal with. Again, phone ahead, confirm prices and
availability, and pay cash.

I've never dealt with either of these outfits by mail,
but they both seem quite intelligent and most likely
would not find using Fedex or UPS a difficulty.

regards,
--le
m - 11 Nov 2004 19:14 GMT
nov1104 from Lloyd Erlick,

>... The fumes and oder took no time filling the house.

This is what gives photography a bad name!

>    I'm not very much bothered by the fumes and oder but I did
>happen upon non-acid processing. After considerable research
>I deceided it was safe to try. The darkroom and house are
>now more livable for my keeping all solutions neutral
>to alkaline.

>    Any of the usuall processes can be done ventless if using
>non-acid chemistry.

Ah, the little secret of non-acid processing.

I never provided ventilation for my cat's litter box,
even though it was far worse in the stench department
than even selenium toner. (The final solution was the
dead cat solution. Don't worry, she almost made twenty
one years...).

In fact, I applied the same method to 'ventilating' the
darkroom, which is to dilute what little ammonia from
my toner with plenty of fresh room air.

Eliminating acid eliminates smell culprit number one,
sulfur dioxide, and number two, hydrogen sulfide.

I have found ammonia to be a distant third (I seem to
have a particular thing about sulfur dioxide; it is the
product of a hitherto undiscovered cult living in the
wall behind the toilet...).

I have had a regular-smell darkroom and now a
near-odorless one. I'm sure not going back.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________


>    I think you'll be pleasantly surprised using the non-acid
>way of processing. Skip hurdle #1.                            Dan
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> I need to find room for a 4x5 enlarger in a bathroom
>> six feet wide...a tray line ...
 
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