Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2003

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Excessive Grain

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
lvc - 25 Aug 2003 18:39 GMT
I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
using 35mm Ilford FP4+ at EI 125 and developing as follows:

D-76 1:1 at 68 degrees for 11 minutes (recommended time)
- agitate first five seconds and rap on counter
- agitatate five seconds each 30 seconds thereafter
Stop bath for 30 seconds with constant agitation
Kodak Rapid Fixer w/o hardener for 4 minutes
Wash 30 seconds
Heico Perma Wash for 30 seconds w/constant agitation
Wash 4 minutes
Photo Flo 30 seconds

All the chemicals subsequent to the D-76 are within 1-2 degrees of 68.  I'm
seeing the grain when enlarging to 5x7 and above.  What could be causing the
grain?  Could it be my agitation technique?  I agitate 5 "cycles" during
each 5 second agitation period.  Is this too much?

What are the primary factors influencing the grain other than film
selection, EI and developer selection?

Thanks.
Vanessa
Warren B. Hapke - 25 Aug 2003 19:28 GMT
: I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
: caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
: using 35mm Ilford FP4+ at EI 125 and developing as follows:

: D-76 1:1 at 68 degrees for 11 minutes (recommended time)
: - agitate first five seconds and rap on counter
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: Wash 4 minutes
: Photo Flo 30 seconds

: All the chemicals subsequent to the D-76 are within 1-2 degrees of 68.  I'm
: seeing the grain when enlarging to 5x7 and above.  What could be causing the
: grain?  Could it be my agitation technique?  I agitate 5 "cycles" during
: each 5 second agitation period.  Is this too much?

If by "5 'cycles'" you mean five complete inversions of the tank, that
may be too much.  In Ilford's beginner's guide to film developing
(http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pdf/Film%20Hobbyist.PDF),
it recommends four inversions in 10 seconds once every minute for
agitation.  The data sheet for FP4 Plus recommends the same level
of agitation.

Overdevelopment will make a film's grain more apparent.
If you know an experienced photographer who can take a look at your
negatives, ask him or her if they seem to be over-developed.  Many of
the introductory books will have illustrations of over-developed
negatives, but most people find it hard to judge a negative against
these illustrations.

: What are the primary factors influencing the grain other than film
: selection, EI and developer selection?

: Thanks.
: Vanessa

Warren B. Hapke
    wbhapke@prairienet.org
Jytzel - 25 Aug 2003 21:27 GMT
Are you printing on hard paper?

> I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks.
> Vanessa
Dick - 25 Aug 2003 21:44 GMT
One possibility is your thermometer; it has happened to me.  If you are
using a dial type, they can easily be off from being jarred or otherwise
aggressed upon.  You might want to calibrate it against a good mercury (or
other) lab type thermometer.  Or even take it to a store and see how it does
against others there.

Dick
> I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks.
> Vanessa
lvc - 26 Aug 2003 13:27 GMT
The thermometer quality issue is an interesting one.  I'm using a dial
thermometer from B&H.  I would be thrilled to switch to a digital
thermometer (more gadgets!!), but which one?  There aren't that many on the
market (at least on the B&H site).  The Kaiser looks good (at $75) but after
that they look a little risky.

Any suggestions here?

> One possibility is your thermometer; it has happened to me.  If you are
> using a dial type, they can easily be off from being jarred or otherwise
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > Thanks.
> > Vanessa
Michael Scarpitti - 25 Aug 2003 21:45 GMT
> I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks.
> Vanessa

Vanessa:

You should not see grain in 11x 14's from FP4.

The recommended time is also probably too high. What kind of enlarger
are you using, and enlarging lens?

Agitate by inverting and rotating simultaneously TWICE per minute (in
immediate succession) after the first minute. NO MORE THAN THAT!
(During the first minute right after you pour the developer in,
agitate with FIVE inversions and rotations during the first 10-15
seconds.) Then STOP! Just stand there and watch the timer. Don't move.
Don't hold the tank or touch it. Set it down and step away from it.
Keep the tank from vibrating. Don't place it on anything that moves.
lvc - 25 Aug 2003 22:32 GMT
I'm using a Beseler 23CII with a Rodenstock 55mm f/2.8 Rodagon lens.

Vanessa

> > I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> > caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Don't hold the tank or touch it. Set it down and step away from it.
> Keep the tank from vibrating. Don't place it on anything that moves.
Craig Schroeder - 26 Aug 2003 00:11 GMT
>> > I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it
>is
>> > caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
>> > using 35mm Ilford FP4+ at EI 125 and developing as follows:
>> >
>> > D-76 1:1 at 68 degrees for 11 minutes (recommended time)

My data sheet from Ilford shows 8.5 minutes, but I recall some changes
being discussed in here....  You are right to expect virtually
grainless results with this combination.  As someone already
commented, you may wish to check the accuracy of your thermometer,
too.  Do you have any known extreme in your water supply in regard to
alkalinity or minerals?  If so, you may wish to try using distilled
water.

>> > - agitate first five seconds and rap on counter
>> > - agitatate five seconds each 30 seconds thereafter

I went through an extensive review and testing of agitation techniques
many years back.  I happened to be using this combination of film and
developer for the tests.  What worked best for me was extending my
development times to the range you are in, initial gentle inversions
for 30 seconds, followed by 2 gentle inversions each minute to the end
of dev time.  This gave me the best evenness of open sky areas,
controlled blocked-up highlights and made for easy to print negatives.
When I switched to a diffused light source (I use a 23CII), I extended
my times a bit.

>> > Stop bath for 30 seconds with constant agitation
>> > Kodak Rapid Fixer w/o hardener for 4 minutes
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> >
>> > All the chemicals subsequent to the D-76 are within 1-2 degrees of 68.

This is pretty much my routine, too.  Don't be afraid to experiment
with the filters....  Sometimes, the wrong contrast can exaggerate the
grain clumps that would normally not be so apparent.  Make certain
your temps are as even as you think and that you aren't "shocking" the
film (ie, at the wash cycle) and suffering from reticulation effects.
It just seems that something extreme is going on here for you to have
grain trouble with this combo.  With D76 1:1 on this fine-grained
emulsion, it seems most likely that you are over-developing and I'd
throttle back on issues that enhance development (temp, time and
agitation).  Keep us posted, you've got me curious now!
Warren B. Hapke - 26 Aug 2003 02:43 GMT
:>> > I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it
:>is
:>> > caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
:>> > using 35mm Ilford FP4+ at EI 125 and developing as follows:
:>> >
:>> > D-76 1:1 at 68 degrees for 11 minutes (recommended time)

: My data sheet from Ilford shows 8.5 minutes, but I recall some changes
: being discussed in here....  You are right to expect virtually
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: alkalinity or minerals?  If so, you may wish to try using distilled
: water.

Ilford lists a time of 8.5 minutes in D76 1+1 on the inside of the film
box for a roll of FP4 Plus that I have.  Their online PDF and their
large time and temperature chart for all their films lists a time of
11 minutes for the same film.  (All these times are for E.I. 125).
Oddly enough, the film box lists a time for ID-11 1+1 (8 minutes)
that differs from the D-76 time, though only by .5 minutes.

I have very limited experience with FP4 Plus, but I suspect that 11
minutes could produce overdevelopment.

Warren B. Hapke
    wbhapke@prairienet.org
Richard Knoppow - 26 Aug 2003 03:32 GMT
> :>> > I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it
> :>is
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Warren B. Hapke
> wbhapke@prairienet.org

 The increased development time would increase contrast
substantially and could well increase grain. The difference
is not trivial. I wonder which time is actually correct.
Signature


---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 27 Aug 2003 22:19 GMT
> >> > I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it
> >is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> alkalinity or minerals?  If so, you may wish to try using distilled
> water.

 Snipping here...

 I wrote Ilford to ask about the time. Here is their reply.

The 11 minute time  is correct. A few years ago, in response
to customer
comments, ILFORD retested FP4+ in a variety of developers.
Although the
details are not known, it is apparent that the earlier
testing contained an
error, which yielded results that, while usable, were not to
the same standard
of contrast used for all other ILFORD films. Because of
these findings, ILFORD
revised the recommendations for FP4+.
Note that this does not reflect a change in the film or the
developers. If you
were satisfied with the results you obtained with the
previously published
times,
then you should continue to use those times.

Regards,
David Carper
ILFORD Technical Service

"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> on 08/25/2003
10:35:09 PM

Please respond to "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com>

To:   US-techsupport/US/ILFORD@ILFORD
cc:
Subject:  FP-4 development time

 Information in the box and elsewhere indicates time for
D-76 1+1 of 8.5 minutes @68F. The current PDF on the Ilford
web site indicates 11 minutes. Which is correct and why the
difference?
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Michael Scarpitti - 26 Aug 2003 03:56 GMT
> I'm using a Beseler 23CII with a Rodenstock 55mm f/2.8 Rodagon lens.
>
> Vanessa

Are you using an accurate thermometer? Are you using any thermometer
at all?

You should not see grain in an 11 x 14 from FP4 properly exposed and
developed. What contrast of paper are you using, and is it graded or
VC? What filter # if VC?
Richard Knoppow - 26 Aug 2003 00:20 GMT
> I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks.
> Vanessa

 The procedure is correct. How is the contrast of the
negatives? I don't think you are overdeveloping but the
contrast will tell you that. Development time determines
contrast.
 The only things I would change about your procedure are:
 Initial agitation should be continuous for the first 30
seconds. After this whack the tank to knock off any air
bubbles.
 Secondly, Ilford's times are for agitation of 10 seconds
once a minute rather than the Kodak agitation of 5 seconds
every 30 seconds. This should not make a big difference.
 Ilford does not specify the contrast index in its
development charts but generally rates its films for
development to a somewhat lower contrast than the ISO
standard. The Ilford contrast is about midway between that
needed for diffusion printing or contact printing and
condenser printing.
 Nothing in your procedure should result in excessive
contrast so I am a bit puzzled. FP-4 is a reasonably low
grain film.
 I suggest trying the following.
 Try another similar film. Probably the closest is Kodak
Plus-X. See if it gives you significantly finer grain. There
should not be a big difference. What I am getting at is that
the FP-4 you have may be defective, it wouldn't be the first
time Ilford has had trouble.
 Without seeing the prints its hard to know how much grain
you have or what it looks like so its hard to analyse the
problem.
 There are finer grained developers than D-76 1:1 although
its fairly fine grain. Kodak Xtol will yield finer grain.
You can get very fine grain by using a developer like Ilford
Perceptol or Kodak Microdol-X at full strength but will lose
some sharpness. At this point I am suspicious of the film.
 Keep in mind that if you are working with 35mm film you
will see some grain except on the slowest films.
 Minimum grain is gotten with tabular grain films like
Kodak T-Max and Ilford Delta or Fuji Acros. They all require
somewhat more care in development since they gain contrast
faster with time and temperature than other films.
 What kind and grade of paper are you using.

 --

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Norman Worth - 26 Aug 2003 21:05 GMT
Maybe it isn't the process.  FP-4 does have noticeable grain, but not
objectionalble grain for most users.  You can see it if you look hard.  If
the film is old or has been improperly stored  the grain could become larger
and some veiling fog appear.  Try a fresh batch of film if your negatives
seem overly dense in the unexposed areas.  You might try a different film,
perhaps 100 TMax or Pan-F, and see if the grain is more to your liking.  You
could also try developing in undiluted D-76 or another fine-grain developer
for less noticeable grain with a slight loss in edge effects and apparent
sharpness.

> I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
> caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks.
> Vanessa
Dan Dunphy - 27 Aug 2003 04:03 GMT
At least 2 people have stated the proper development time is 8.5
minutes. If so, 11 minutes is way over-development.
Also, Condenser enlargers require a bit less development than
diffusion enlargers for the same filter and paper.
Try 8.5 minutes and a grade 2 or 3 filter.
An indicator of over agitaion is often higher density toward the
edges. The film releases bromide, into the developer, which acts as a
development restrainer, in the highlights, where the most bromide is
released.  This keeps highlights from blocking up. Over agitation
washes this bromide away from the areas that need it.
Dan

>I am having problems with too much grain in my B&W photos.  I think it is
>caused by something I'm doing or not doing during film development.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Thanks.
>Vanessa

Colorado Springs, CO
My advice may be worth what you paid for it.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.