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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2004

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Phenidone in Alcohol, POTA, Delagi #8

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Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Sep 2004 19:10 GMT
I was going to mix up some POTA and I remembered a
suggestion to use a solution of phenidone in alcohol,
much the same as is done with benztriazole.

- However -

I am having difficulty reconciling the quantities given
for phenidone in alcohol Vs phenidone in the formulas
for phenidone/x developers and POTA.

The recommended dilution is 1% w/v (1gm/100ml) phenidone
in alcohol.

The formulas for various phenidone/ascorbic developers is
~2.5 ml of the 1% solution per liter of developer --
or 25mg/l of phenidone.

The POTA and Delagi developers use ~1.5 grams of phenidone
per liter of developer.

Question:

The ratio of the phenidone concentrations in these two developers
is close to 100:1 - is this correct?

If it is, then I assume there is no gain in storing the
phenidone as an alcohol solution when making POTA as 1.5gm
phenidone is about 1/2 teaspoon and easy enough to measure,
is this correct?

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Donald Qualls - 26 Sep 2004 00:56 GMT
> I am having difficulty reconciling the quantities given
> for phenidone in alcohol Vs phenidone in the formulas
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> phenidone is about 1/2 teaspoon and easy enough to measure,
> is this correct?

If you're mixing POTA, I presume you're planning to develop either Tech
Pan or a microfilm stock of some kind.  I don't have my books with me
(the movers still have them), but the figure you give for POTA seems
about right.  Don't forget that phenidone is the only developing agent
in POTA, and is used in conditions of controlled exhaustion in order to
reduce contrast.  In most other developers where it appears, phenidone
is used in conjunction with hydroquinone and/or metol  Phenidone is
regenerated by the hydroquinone, so much less phenidone is needed in
formulae that combine the two, and when phenidone is added to a a metol
formule, hydroquinone is almost always present.

That said, there are a number of other formulae that are more
predictable and consistent than POTA, even if you're not measuring your
1.5 g of phenidone with a spoon.  I'd recommend trying HC-110 Dilution
G, with reduced agitation; I've found it to work well with Copex Rapid
even at EI 100 (IIRC, 11 minutes at 68 F, constant agitation first
minute, then agitation every third minute).  For small quantities (less
than the 8 ounces or so needed for a single 35 mm film) it's easier to
get repeatable mixes if you mix from stock solution; the amount of syrup
is so small that size of drop that hangs on your syringe might produce a
visible change in your negatives.

Another alternate is Caffenol LC, 2 tsp Folgers coffee crystals and 2
tsp washing soda (I use Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda) in 8 ounces
water; Copex Rapid needs about 40 minutes with agitation every minute to
get EI 100, but gives very nice gradation; extreme enlargement will show
more grain than with HC-110, but not much more.  Dissolve the carbonate
first, and stir until completely clear before adding the coffee, then
stir until all grittiness is gone.  The stuff smells pretty bad, but
does a nice job on microfilm and should work on Tech Pan as well.

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I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Richard Knoppow - 26 Sep 2004 02:40 GMT
>> I am having difficulty reconciling the quantities given
>> for phenidone in alcohol Vs phenidone in the formulas
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> is gone.  The stuff smells pretty bad, but does a nice job
> on microfilm and should work on Tech Pan as well.

 I don't think controlled exhaustion is the reason
Phenidone developes to low contrast. Its a property of
Phenidone, which is just a very low contrast developer when
used alone with sulfite. When used with a stronger alkali it
will develop to more normal contrast. Part of being able to
get pictorial contrast out of high contrast materials like
microfilm is due to substantially overexposing it. The weak
developer then develops the low sensitivity silver halide
crystals, which are also very fine grain.
  Exhaustion would result in "compensation" or the
production of a shoulder. This results in higher contrast
for shadow areas and flattened out highlight contrast, which
is not what happens with Technical Pan.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

John - 27 Sep 2004 01:43 GMT
> This results in higher contrast
>for shadow areas and flattened out highlight contrast, which
>is not what happens with Technical Pan.

    I can second this. My first experience with Tech pan was
photographing the White House through the fence using my Minolta X700.
The shadow detail is incredible. The mid-tones fantastic. The
highlights virtually bullet-proof.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Nicholas O. Lindan - 27 Sep 2004 03:17 GMT
> I can second this. My first experience with Tech pan was
> photographing the White House through the fence using my Minolta X700.
> The shadow detail is incredible. The mid-tones fantastic. The
> highlights virtually bullet-proof.

All white because they are dense but hold detail
- or -
All white because there is no detail
- ? -

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

 
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