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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2004

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[expert? ] ARGH! strange effect on negatives

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stefano bramato - 24 Sep 2004 13:53 GMT
Hallo.
this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
very very difficult to understand.

Negative was Neopan 400
developed in Microphen 1+1 7'30" @ 20?C
stop in water
fix with Ilford RapidFix 8'
washed for 10'
Once

The negative has perfect contrast, density and so forth.
+Once dryed so the negative looks quite good
but the real problem is the emulsion side surface.
Usually this surface is quite smoot, not glossy like the other side, but
smooth.
This time i feel the surface like satin, with some noise when touching.
Like touching a very fine sand.
First time in 12 years, again.
under strong magnification under my Durst "sandy surface" it seems like
bubbles, everywhere in hilights and in low lights indifferently.

Once printed here are some results.

http://www.bramatobros.com/posts/24092004/

Pics are quite heavy and large to allow a good vision of the problem.

I need some serious help because this error in a batch of 4 roll it
happens everytime in different intensity. But it happens and pratically
my films are useless...

Are this lot of film defective?
Are this films burned by something in developing? No acid stop and
normal fixing time was used.

In the meantime i'm testing another kind of batch of strips of this film
to test with Ilfosol and ID-11 as my usual developers...

HELP!!
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winddancing - 24 Sep 2004 15:28 GMT
When someone flushes the toilet often the shower goes cold and you jump,
similarly when film gets the cold shower effect it reacts.  Even more so
when the wash goes very hot compared to the previous bath or wash.
Jan T - 24 Sep 2004 18:46 GMT
| When someone flushes the toilet often the shower goes cold and you jump,
| similarly when film gets the cold shower effect it reacts.  Even more so
| when the wash goes very hot compared to the previous bath or wash.

Do you suspect Stefano's films of reticulation, 'winddancing'? I'm rather
dubious that's the problem; reticulation shows cracks that make the print
look like a landscape where a burning sun has dried the mud. And I don't
believe you can actually _feel_ reticulation (no experience, never succeeded
in reticulating a film ;-)).

I notice those 'bubbles' print lighter than their surroundings, so they must
have a dark or opaque appearance on the negative. As you can feel them,
Stefano, they can be deposits from the wash water or dust settling down when
the film hangs drying (I bet on the first).

As your negatives look - sorry for my hard verdict - rather lost, you can
try this experiment: rewash the film (or a single band of  negs for a
careful test); after washing, soak in deminaralised water with wetting
agent, hang to dry in a _dust free_ room at room temparature (bathrooms are
mostly the least dusted places in our homes). Hang the film, tip toe away
and gently close the door until next morning. Carefully control the
temperature of the wash water and demin. water! To cold doesn't wash well,
to hot makes the emulsion very week, switching from hotter to colder (-5?C)
can make the emulsion reticulate.

If this rewashing doesn't help, you can try gently wiping the negs (after
another washing session + soaking in demin. water & wetting agent) with a
_clean_ (new) chamois leather. This _can_ (allmost certainly) give scratches
on the film, but when it solves your problem, I mean: when your 'bubbles'
are gone, you can at least assume that my diagnosis comes close to the truth
and you'll be able to prevent it in the future with the above procedure.

Jan
John - 24 Sep 2004 19:14 GMT
>Do you suspect Stefano's films of reticulation, 'winddancing'? I'm rather
>dubious that's the problem; reticulation shows cracks that make the print
>look like a landscape where a burning sun has dried the mud. And I don't
>believe you can actually _feel_ reticulation (no experience, never succeeded
>in reticulating a film ;-)).

    If the film is _severely_ reticulated, the emulsion will be
wrinkled. I believe that this extreme can be felt.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
stefano bramato - 25 Sep 2004 00:47 GMT
> Do you suspect Stefano's films of reticulation, 'winddancing'? I'm rather
> dubious that's the problem; reticulation shows cracks that make the print
> look like a landscape where a burning sun has dried the mud. And I don't
> believe you can actually _feel_ reticulation (no experience, never succeeded
> in reticulating a film ;-)).
Omly once i reticulated a film for creative purposes by agitating, using
strong developments and long time of developments.
Under strong magnifing the reticulation show almost everywhere cracks
and deeps. I used an old fp4 film.
with todays films is very difficult to reticulate, and my negative is
not retuculated.

> I notice those 'bubbles' print lighter than their surroundings, so they must
> have a dark or opaque appearance on the negative. As you can feel them,
> Stefano, they can be deposits from the wash water or dust settling down when
> the film hangs drying (I bet on the first).

Mmm... no. They are, of course opaque but not black and not a particle
of deposit. I write this becaus ewhen looking a negative a look also in
the borders. And they show the same tiny bubbles. Not particles.

> As your negatives look - sorry for my hard verdict - rather lost,
ye, you're right

> you can
> try this experiment: rewash the film (or a single band of  negs for a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to hot makes the emulsion very week, switching from hotter to colder (-5?C)
> can make the emulsion reticulate.
I was thinking about it.
First tomorrow I will retry to develop a 10 shots of the same roll as a
test.
then, and I will try asap your suggestions. When I have a problem I want
to understand where is the gap and solve soon.
I learn faster.

> If this rewashing doesn't help, you can try gently wiping the negs (after
> another washing session + soaking in demin. water & wetting agent) with a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jan

thanks jan, this will be one of my tests.

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John - 24 Sep 2004 19:12 GMT
>When someone flushes the toilet often the shower goes cold and you jump,
>similarly when film gets the cold shower effect it reacts.  Even more so
>when the wash goes very hot compared to the previous bath or wash.

    The degree of effect is dependant upon the film though. TMX
and TMY are hardened and don't reticulate as easily as other "old
tech" films.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Robert Vervoordt - 24 Sep 2004 19:46 GMT
>Hallo.
>this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
>Are this lot of film defective?

Perhaps

>Are this films burned by something in developing?

Doubtful.
> No acid stop and
>normal fixing time was used.

I saw something like this in a demo by an old hand lab technician.  He
was debunking the standard idea that this only came from high
Carbonate developers with an acid stop.  He used some other kind of
developer and a very strong fix.  There were bubbles and pinholes
galore.  Something like this eems to fit your problem negs.

Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.  

Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the water bath,
which may have been too short, is the strength of the rapid fix.  I
wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too long.

Anyone?
>In the meantime i'm testing another kind of batch of strips of this film
>to test with Ilfosol and ID-11 as my usual developers...
>
>HELP!!

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Richard Knoppow - 24 Sep 2004 20:52 GMT
>>Hallo.
>>this week another error or strange effect on a negative.
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

  Microphen is essentially a Phenidone version of D-76,
rather low pH and buffered using Borax as the alkali.
  The water rinse stop bath should not have caused
problems. Even though Ilford Rapid Fixer does not have a
hardener it is acid and buffered so it would have stopped
development instantly.
  Unless other rolls of film from the same batch have been
processed successfully I suspect a coating problem, Ilford
has been having them lately. I think it might be worth
examining an unexposed roll of film to see if the surface is
smooth. If not, contact Ilford.
  BTW, I wonder about the demonstration mentioned above.
Carbonate is the only alkali commonly used in developers
which outgasses. Even so pinholes, which are actual
disruptions of the emulsion, are quite rare. Generally what
is attributed to pinholes is actually from embedded dust.
  The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

stefano bramato - 25 Sep 2004 00:58 GMT
>    The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
> time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
> time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
> bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
> Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
> hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.

Never washed with washaid, but i always wash for minimum 8 minutes, with
agitation every minutes like developing and changing water after session
of agitation. I've negatives from the early nineties in perfect working
order.

It Is growing the suspect of long time fixing, but it would be the first
time in 13years about that more than 8' fix make bubbles on the
emulsion.
Gosh.

Today i will try also this: a saturday in searching of errors made....

Thanks very much, your suggestions are always appreciated.

Stefano
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John Stockdale - 25 Sep 2004 00:22 GMT
I have a film (actually Neopan400) that has some of this.  It was a
test roll and I was less than careful in its procesing.  I think I let
some hot water drop into the open tank since i was not going to the
trouble of my normal washing routine.  On my film, this is evidenced
by the trouble being in patches.  It doesn't look like the classic
reticulation seen in the older books on technique: it's less obvious.
stefano bramato - 25 Sep 2004 00:52 GMT
> There were bubbles and pinholes
> galore.  Something like this eems to fit your problem negs.

yes... :(

> Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.  

i used acetic acid sometimes (2% solution in 1liter) but i feel no
necessary this one. About 30" of normal water wash I think do the same.


> Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the water bath,
> which may have been too short, is the strength of the rapid fix.

Sometimes when I've to develop a batch of several rolls I start to have
a stronger solution of fix.
For example instead of 1:4 of fix I start with 1:3,4.
This time, with frsh fixer I starte to fix 1:4... gosh! As manual
suggests!!

>  I wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too long.

I wonder too that the acidic fixer used for a long time for first rolls
can produce this.... tomorrow i will try also this.

Thanks a lot for the followup-

Stefano

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Dan Quinn - 24 Sep 2004 22:17 GMT
> Hallo.
> this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Are this lot of film defective?

 IIRC, your last "ARGH" was 'corrected' by using a more correct
agitation in the fixer. Was that a coincidence? Are you up against
a one in one million few rolls of film.
 Before I forget, I think 8 minutes in film strength rapid fix is
to much.
 Back to the film, two films are making trouble. What do they have
in common; date of purchase, storage, transport, place of
purchase, etc?
 I think you are an experienced film processor with a mystery to
solve.                                                          Dan
stefano bramato - 25 Sep 2004 01:08 GMT
>   IIRC, your last "ARGH" was 'corrected' by using a more correct
> agitation in the fixer.
Nice brain Dan!

> Was that a coincidence?

yeps.
> Are you up against a one in one million few rolls of film.
:)
usually i take lot of care.
and when it happens someting like this i feel confused...

>   Before I forget, I think 8 minutes in film strength rapid fix is
> to much.
yes, I'm starting to think too. Or the tempeareture of fixing was
increased more than 23?C form some reason... test test i've to male
tests...

>   Before I forget, I think 8 minutes in film strength rapid fix is
> to much.
But sometimes a <5min of fix don't cleart the antihalo magenta stain
enough. And, since this would give no problems in negatives life,
sometime creates lots of problems in printing because increase contrast.
Plus, sometimes a long time of washing not solve the magenta stain.
All of my negatives have to be gray on the border: And so they are 98%
of my negatives.

>   Back to the film, two films are making trouble. What do they have
> in common; date of purchase, storage, transport, place of
> purchase, etc?
The same film buyed in pack of ten:
Neopan 400 35mm fresh.

>   I think you are an experienced film processor with a mystery to
> solve.                                                          

Hope I will do.
I will solve this mistery with a saturday of testings and following some
sugestions, like these writed by many mates in this NG.
Thanks people.

Hope my questions will help someone.
Sorry for posting strange problems. :D

Stefano Bramato

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camera critter - 25 Sep 2004 02:54 GMT
> This time i feel the surface like satin, with some noise when touching.
> Like touching a very fine sand.
> First time in 12 years, again.
> under strong magnification under my Durst "sandy surface" it seems like
> bubbles, everywhere in hilights and in low lights indifferently.

Perhaps something happened to stir up sediments (rust, calcium
precipitates, foreign debris) in your water supply.

Our local newspaper periodically contains an announcement about the
fire department routinely flushing the hydrants in a neighborhood, and
warns that red (rusty) sediments will appear in the tap water of that
neighborhood.   Yes, indeed, there was crud appearing in my tap water.

I experienced a run of many (ten, fifteen) years without problems, but
on one memorable occasion, a series of eight rolls were damaged when
sediments suddenly came gushing out of the tap during my developing
run.

After that disaster, I now attach a filter unit to my darkroom tap.

_________________________
_________________________

> Hallo.
> this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> HELP!!
Dan Quinn - 25 Sep 2004 22:24 GMT
> on one memorable occasion, a series of eight rolls were damaged when
> sediments suddenly came gushing out of the tap during my developing
> run.

 Very little water is needed to process a roll of film. Use distilled
through-out the film's processing.                                 Dan
Ken Hart - 25 Sep 2004 05:25 GMT
> Hallo.
> this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> HELP!!

How is your water quality? Was there a recent change in the water line
plumbing prior to your darkroom? If you are on a city water supply, was
there a water line break somewhere "upstream" from you?
The first film I developed in my latest darkroom (years ago) had a "gritty"
feel to it. I added a water filter and that solved the problem. (At first I
added a faucet-mounted filter. Later, when the water heater gave out because
of sediment in the water, I added a whole-house filter.)

Ken Hart
stefano bramato - 26 Sep 2004 18:55 GMT
I think the problem was solved!!
YO!

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PATRICK GAINER - 29 Sep 2004 00:39 GMT
Good! What was it? And do not apologise for asking strange questions,
They are more fun than familiar questions.

> I think the problem was solved!!
> YO!
>
> --
> Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!
stefano bramato - 29 Sep 2004 13:20 GMT
> Good! What was it? And do not apologise for asking strange questions,
> They are more fun than familiar questions.

In few words was strong solution of fixer and anomalous time and
temperature. After a whole sunday passed for test the results are in the
foollowing words...

the reply  post is already published but I want to rewrite here for
courtesy:
-----------------
I have done today four tests, with four different developers, new fix
and reduced fix time. Like you suggested there is something wrong in
fix... test test test!! Alone in the dark testing today!! Is a rainy
day!!

I really think that the negative was destroyed by two differents factors
at the same time.

First of all I was helped by a friend in preparing the fix solution and
other stuff, bEcause he was a friends who wanted to learn more on
photography, ok?

First reason:
He says to me that he did fix solution slightly more concentrated than
usual, like I use to do.  But alot more concentrated: 1:3 instead
instead **1+3,5** that is very different with rapid fixers. So I think
that more acidic environment subtle wounded the emoulsion. Then a
excessive fixing time: 10' instead of 5'-7,5' as I do when FRESH.
More fixing time and concentration, this time and with this rolls, not
did more bleach on highlits, like many books says but makes like burns
and bubbles on the emulsion.

Second reason:
not stable water temperature.
usually in my lab there is always 24?C. This time i can see that there
are a couple of ?C more high and low. But i beleieve that this cannot
affect at all the washing but can help in desruption of film.

Sorry people for using NG as reporting my esperiments, but after this i
feel more sure of my self (and of course, less of my learning friend....
:D)

Today tests results with as usual stock treatments?
Perfect negatives... and  I feel more comfortable with myself!
--------------------------

;D

Ciao,
Stefano

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