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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2004

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Phenidon-base paper developer

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ATIPPETT - 24 Sep 2004 06:35 GMT
Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base
developer when printing on Ilford MG.  I use Polymax developer with list
phenol-sulfate.  Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based?  And does it really
give me the riches blacks?  What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks?

Alan Tippett
Richard Knoppow - 24 Sep 2004 08:05 GMT
> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I
> used a Phenidon-Base
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Alan Tippett

   Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and
hydroquinone.
  Ilford Bromophen is a Phenidone and hydroquinone
developer with applications similar to Dektol
  In comparison Bromophen produces slightly colder blacks
with most papers, perhaps because of the Benzotraiazole in
it. Phenidone will give you no deper blacks blacks than
Metol, only, perhaps, slightly different color.
  Agfa Neutol Plus is a Phenidone and ascorbic acid paper
developer, I think the only one on the market for paper.
Here is the formula for Ilford ID-62, which is essentially
identical to Bromophen.

Ilford ID-62

Developer for Films Plates and Paper

Stock Solution

Water (at 125F or 52C)                         750.0 ml

Sodium Sulfite, anhydrous                       50.0 grams

Hydroquinone                                    12.0 grams

Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous                     60.0 grams

Phenidone                                        0.5 grams

Potassium Bromide                                2.0 grams

Benzotriazole                                    0.2 grams

Water to make                                    1.0 liter

Dilute 1:1 to 1:3

Similar to Ilford Bromophen

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Michael A. Covington - 24 Sep 2004 14:41 GMT
>    Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and
> hydroquinone.

Sure enough.  I had thought that, like its predecessor Ektaflo, it contained
Dimezone, but I've just checked the MSDS.  Why did they switch?

>   Ilford Bromophen is a Phenidone and hydroquinone
> developer with applications similar to Dektol
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Similar to Ilford Bromophen
Richard Knoppow - 25 Sep 2004 07:06 GMT
>>    Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and
>> hydroquinone.
>
> Sure enough.  I had thought that, like its predecessor
> Ektaflo, it contained Dimezone, but I've just checked the
> MSDS.  Why did they switch?

  I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo
contained Dimezone. EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol,
evidently the indentical product to Polymax. Ektaflo Type 2
is liquid Ektonol. Ektonol is a soft working
Metol-Hydroquinone paper developer with Sodium Metaborate
(Kodalk) rather than Carbonate. The MSDS show Sodium
Hydroxide and Borax but these become sodium metaborate in
solution. Ektonol is a good developer somewhat warmer toned
than Polymax or Dektol. It doesn't outgas and is supposed
not to cause stains when toning but I've never had problems
with staining caused by the developer so I don't know what
Kodak is talking about.
  There are a number of Phenidone-Hydroquinone paper
developers on the market. I think Sprint developer is one
and Edwal LPD is another. Phenidone paper developers have a
somewhat larger capacity than Metol. As far as image color
and density the color depends on the activity of the
developer and the restraining agents in it. Phenidone can be
used for warm tone developers as well as neutral tone. M-H
developers can be made neutral by adding some Benzotriazole
and by adding carbonate.
  AFAIK, Agfa Neutol is the only Phenidone and ascorbic
acid developer made commercially although there are some
published formulas for similar developers. The main virtue
of Neutol Plus is that eliminating Hydroquinone makes them
more environmentally friendly.
  The maximum density of a developer depends on its
activity. Dektol is a quite active developer and will
produce about the greatest Dmax a paper is capable of, but
so will any other active developer. Actually, paper Dmax is
never reached in pictorial use because normal negatives
don't expose it enough. As mentioned in an earlier post
densities of greater than about Log 2.0 are pointless
because you won't detect the difference in a reflection
print.
  I have no idea of why Kodak changes the names of
products. I suppose it is because they think the new name
will make it sell better. It reminds me of the rule in TV
news. If the program isn't doing well change the set.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Michael A. Covington - 25 Sep 2004 15:07 GMT
>   I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo contained Dimezone.
> EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol, evidently the indentical product to
> Polymax.

But unless my memory totally deceives me, in the early 1980s, Ektaflo Type 1
said "with Dimezone developing agent" on the outside of the Cubitainer.
Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:11 GMT
>>   I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo
>> contained Dimezone. EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1980s, Ektaflo Type 1 said "with Dimezone developing
> agent" on the outside of the Cubitainer.

    That would be interesting. Unfortunately, MSDS that old
are not available. If it did I wonder why Kodak would change
back. Phenidone is used in one form or another in HC-110,
and the T-Max developers (it finally shows up in the latest
MSDS) as well as Xtol. However, the current MSDS for
Polymax-T and the ones I saved some time ago for Ektaflo
Type-1 show Metol, not Phenidone or Dimezone (a form of
Phenidone). At this time Phenidone containing paper
developers seem to be made by Ilford (Bromophen), Agfa,
Edwal, Sprint. Maybe others but not Kodak.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Uranium Committee - 24 Sep 2004 15:12 GMT
> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base
> developer when printing on Ilford MG.  I use Polymax developer with list
> phenol-sulfate.  Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based?  And does it really
> give me the riches blacks?  What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks?
>
> Alan Tippett

Phenidone and Amidol are both highly resistant to supresion by bromide
release. This means that in very dark areas, they will continue to
develop when metol and other developing agents cease working.
Richard Knoppow - 24 Sep 2004 21:00 GMT
>> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I
>> used a Phenidon-Base
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> develop when metol and other developing agents cease
> working.

   Actually, Metol is not very sensitive to bromide either.
Hydroquinone is. The reaction products from Hydroquinone are
powerful developing agents themselves. The effect of local
generation of bromide in development with M-H developers is
slight.
   In fact, comparison of M-H with Amidol shows no
difference in Dmax or paper curve.
   There can be a difference in image color but a little
Benzotriazole in Dektol will make it as neutral or cold tone
as Bromophen or Amidol.
   The key to good blacks is having a good negative.
Exposure for most paper should result in full development in
from one to three minutes. Fast enlarging paper generally is
completed in 1 to 1.5 minutes, slower papers take two to
three minutes. Longer development tends to produce fog.
   If you have weak blacks and are exposing correctly the
problem may be the negative or choice of paper contrast.
   Almost any paper and developer can produce densities too
great for use in a reflection print. You can prove this by
illuminating the print by _transmitted_ light. Generally
there will be detail visible in shadow areas that look blank
black by reflection.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Uranium Committee - 26 Sep 2004 02:44 GMT
> >> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I
> >> used a Phenidon-Base
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> there will be detail visible in shadow areas that look blank
> black by reflection.

I have used Amidol in the past, about 30 years ago. The prints seemed
somehow richer, but I can't say why.
Gregory Blank - 26 Sep 2004 03:20 GMT
Try this: a narrower area and cut off in the D max area
coupled with good highlight seperation and normal contrast
in the mid tone areas. That's what I see in Amidol prints.

> I have used Amidol in the past, about 30 years ago. The prints seemed
> somehow richer, but I can't say why.

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Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:26 GMT
> Try this: a narrower area and cut off in the D max area
> coupled with good highlight seperation and normal contrast
> in the mid tone areas. That's what I see in Amidol prints.

  I have no idea of what this means. My experience with
Amidol is that it produces good, rather neutral color,
prints which don't look much different from those processed
in Dektol. Amidol is not a magic developer. It is very
active, in fact, the most active of the generally used
developing agents other than Phenidone. What I suggest is
that a comparison of Amidol with Dektol at 1:1 rather than
1:2 may show less difference.
  A note about terms: I have no idea what is meant by
"narrower area and cut off in the Dmax area.
  To me highlight separation means maintanence of contrast
in the highlights. The characteristic of the paper is the
main factor in this. On paper the highlights are on the toe
of the curve. In all cases the toe has lower contrast than
the mid tone area of any emulsion. On paper this results in
some compression of tones.
  The shadow areas of a print may not get into the shoulder
of the curve. Modern emulsions can reach quite high maximum
densities, well beyond the values usable for a reflection
print. Shadow detail also depends on the contrast of the
shadow part of the print curve but is more often a result of
the toe of the film curve. In any case, there tends to be a
reduction of contrast at both ends of the range. Since
reflection prints can reproduce a brightness range of only
about 30:1 at best some compression must take place
somewhere. The eye expects to see contrast of about the same
value as in the original or the tone rendition will not look
natural. If the mid tones are reproduced reasonably
accurately the eye is generally tollerant of compression of
shadows and highlights.
  I've done actual comparisons of prints developed in
different developers and find very little difference other
than small variations in image color among them. Others may
have a different experience. The problem with internet
discussion is that there is no way of seeing someone else's
results. So much is lost or subject to variation in a
scanned image that they are not too useful for comparing
subtleties.
  I was introduced to Amidol about fifty years ago. In
fact, its a very good and simple print developer. Its
shortcomings are now mainly its cost, and its short tray
life although that can be extended somewhat by adding Citric
acid. In any case, its long enough for practical purposes.
The other drawback is the tendency of Amidol to stain
anything it dries and oxidizes on dark black. This stain is
very hard to remove so its a good idea to use gloves or
tongs and not get your hands into the stuff.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

LR Kalajainen - 24 Sep 2004 16:54 GMT
Richard Koppow is correct.  Phenidone-based developers will give a
slightly colder tone because they use Benzotriazole as an anti-foggant
rather than bromide.  You can also use Benzotriazole in a Metol/HQ
developer like D-72 or Ansco 120 (similar to Dektol) and get a colder
tone than you will if you use the bromide.  The coldness or warmth of
the tone, however, is not the same question about the depth of the
blacks (D-Max).  They're related, but not the same.  Generally, warmtone
papers (chlorobromide as opposed to bromide) will give deeper, richer
blacks, though not cold-toned blacks.  Using a warmtone paper like
Ilford MG Warmtone with a colder-toned developer gives interesting
results.  The blacks are rich, but cooler in tone.

> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base
> developer when printing on Ilford MG.  I use Polymax developer with list
> phenol-sulfate.  Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based?  And does it really
> give me the riches blacks?  What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks?
>
> Alan Tippett
me home - 25 Sep 2004 12:12 GMT
D max is determined by silver content in the emulsion, a developer
should use it in full. there are small differences in hue, depending
on the developer composition. If you don't get rich blacks, expose or
develop more.

>Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base
>developer when printing on Ilford MG.  I use Polymax developer with list
>phenol-sulfate.  Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based?  And does it really
>give me the riches blacks?  What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks?
>
>Alan Tippett
Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:32 GMT
>D max is determined by silver content in the emulsion, a
>developer
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
>>Alan Tippett

  Actually silver content has little to do with Dmax. In
his book _Controlls in Black & White Photography_ (now out
of print) Dr. Richard Henry proves this by measuring the
silver content of several papers and their maximum density.
The paper with the highest Dmax had a moderate silver
content and one of the lowest Dmax papers had the highest
silver content. It is the shape of the silver crystals and
their distribution in the emulsion that determines the Dmax
along with paper surfaces. Dmax is meaningful only for
glossy prints. The light scattering from any textured or
matted paper is sufficient to lower the Dmax well below the
capability of the emulsion. Almost any paper is capable of
densities well above (darker) than those practical for a
reflection print. This is easy to demonstrate by
illuminating a good print from the back. You will find
shadows which appear to be black by reflection have detail
in them.
 In addition to this the eye is sensitive to contrast. A
contrasty print will appear to have deeper blacks than one
of low contrast for the same actual values of reflectance.
  The fact is that silver content of neither negative or
print emulsions is significant.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 Sep 2004 20:33 GMT
> This is easy to demonstrate by
> illuminating a good print from the back. You will find
> shadows which appear to be black by reflection have detail
> in them.

I have quite a few prints that look a lot better transilluminated.

I find it very hard (meaning I have never been able) to get the same
effect in a reflective print.

I thought at one time that PhotoShop would be the way to go, but
no soap.

This near-invisible detail in the shadows is something ink jet prints
do not accomplish.  A silver print seems to have a lot of subliminal
image in it that an ink-jet chucks away.  It is like comparing an old
Sheffield direct-to-disc LP record to a CD.

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

 
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