Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / September 2004
Phenidon-base paper developer
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ATIPPETT - 24 Sep 2004 06:35 GMT Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base developer when printing on Ilford MG. I use Polymax developer with list phenol-sulfate. Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based? And does it really give me the riches blacks? What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks?
Alan Tippett
Richard Knoppow - 24 Sep 2004 08:05 GMT > Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I > used a Phenidon-Base [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Alan Tippett Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and hydroquinone. Ilford Bromophen is a Phenidone and hydroquinone developer with applications similar to Dektol In comparison Bromophen produces slightly colder blacks with most papers, perhaps because of the Benzotraiazole in it. Phenidone will give you no deper blacks blacks than Metol, only, perhaps, slightly different color. Agfa Neutol Plus is a Phenidone and ascorbic acid paper developer, I think the only one on the market for paper. Here is the formula for Ilford ID-62, which is essentially identical to Bromophen.
Ilford ID-62
Developer for Films Plates and Paper
Stock Solution
Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Sodium Sulfite, anhydrous 50.0 grams
Hydroquinone 12.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous 60.0 grams
Phenidone 0.5 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.0 grams
Benzotriazole 0.2 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter
Dilute 1:1 to 1:3
Similar to Ilford Bromophen
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Michael A. Covington - 24 Sep 2004 14:41 GMT > Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and > hydroquinone. Sure enough. I had thought that, like its predecessor Ektaflo, it contained Dimezone, but I've just checked the MSDS. Why did they switch?
> Ilford Bromophen is a Phenidone and hydroquinone > developer with applications similar to Dektol [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Similar to Ilford Bromophen Richard Knoppow - 25 Sep 2004 07:06 GMT >> Polymax is liquid Dektol. It contains metol and >> hydroquinone. > > Sure enough. I had thought that, like its predecessor > Ektaflo, it contained Dimezone, but I've just checked the > MSDS. Why did they switch? I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo contained Dimezone. EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol, evidently the indentical product to Polymax. Ektaflo Type 2 is liquid Ektonol. Ektonol is a soft working Metol-Hydroquinone paper developer with Sodium Metaborate (Kodalk) rather than Carbonate. The MSDS show Sodium Hydroxide and Borax but these become sodium metaborate in solution. Ektonol is a good developer somewhat warmer toned than Polymax or Dektol. It doesn't outgas and is supposed not to cause stains when toning but I've never had problems with staining caused by the developer so I don't know what Kodak is talking about. There are a number of Phenidone-Hydroquinone paper developers on the market. I think Sprint developer is one and Edwal LPD is another. Phenidone paper developers have a somewhat larger capacity than Metol. As far as image color and density the color depends on the activity of the developer and the restraining agents in it. Phenidone can be used for warm tone developers as well as neutral tone. M-H developers can be made neutral by adding some Benzotriazole and by adding carbonate. AFAIK, Agfa Neutol is the only Phenidone and ascorbic acid developer made commercially although there are some published formulas for similar developers. The main virtue of Neutol Plus is that eliminating Hydroquinone makes them more environmentally friendly. The maximum density of a developer depends on its activity. Dektol is a quite active developer and will produce about the greatest Dmax a paper is capable of, but so will any other active developer. Actually, paper Dmax is never reached in pictorial use because normal negatives don't expose it enough. As mentioned in an earlier post densities of greater than about Log 2.0 are pointless because you won't detect the difference in a reflection print. I have no idea of why Kodak changes the names of products. I suppose it is because they think the new name will make it sell better. It reminds me of the rule in TV news. If the program isn't doing well change the set.
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Michael A. Covington - 25 Sep 2004 15:07 GMT > I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo contained Dimezone. > EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol, evidently the indentical product to > Polymax. But unless my memory totally deceives me, in the early 1980s, Ektaflo Type 1 said "with Dimezone developing agent" on the outside of the Cubitainer.
Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:11 GMT >> I am pretty sure that neither version of Ektaflo >> contained Dimezone. EktafloType 1 was liquid Dektol, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1980s, Ektaflo Type 1 said "with Dimezone developing > agent" on the outside of the Cubitainer. That would be interesting. Unfortunately, MSDS that old are not available. If it did I wonder why Kodak would change back. Phenidone is used in one form or another in HC-110, and the T-Max developers (it finally shows up in the latest MSDS) as well as Xtol. However, the current MSDS for Polymax-T and the ones I saved some time ago for Ektaflo Type-1 show Metol, not Phenidone or Dimezone (a form of Phenidone). At this time Phenidone containing paper developers seem to be made by Ilford (Bromophen), Agfa, Edwal, Sprint. Maybe others but not Kodak.
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Uranium Committee - 24 Sep 2004 15:12 GMT > Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base > developer when printing on Ilford MG. I use Polymax developer with list > phenol-sulfate. Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based? And does it really > give me the riches blacks? What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks? > > Alan Tippett Phenidone and Amidol are both highly resistant to supresion by bromide release. This means that in very dark areas, they will continue to develop when metol and other developing agents cease working.
Richard Knoppow - 24 Sep 2004 21:00 GMT >> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I >> used a Phenidon-Base [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > develop when metol and other developing agents cease > working. Actually, Metol is not very sensitive to bromide either. Hydroquinone is. The reaction products from Hydroquinone are powerful developing agents themselves. The effect of local generation of bromide in development with M-H developers is slight. In fact, comparison of M-H with Amidol shows no difference in Dmax or paper curve. There can be a difference in image color but a little Benzotriazole in Dektol will make it as neutral or cold tone as Bromophen or Amidol. The key to good blacks is having a good negative. Exposure for most paper should result in full development in from one to three minutes. Fast enlarging paper generally is completed in 1 to 1.5 minutes, slower papers take two to three minutes. Longer development tends to produce fog. If you have weak blacks and are exposing correctly the problem may be the negative or choice of paper contrast. Almost any paper and developer can produce densities too great for use in a reflection print. You can prove this by illuminating the print by _transmitted_ light. Generally there will be detail visible in shadow areas that look blank black by reflection.
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Uranium Committee - 26 Sep 2004 02:44 GMT > >> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I > >> used a Phenidon-Base [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > there will be detail visible in shadow areas that look blank > black by reflection. I have used Amidol in the past, about 30 years ago. The prints seemed somehow richer, but I can't say why.
Gregory Blank - 26 Sep 2004 03:20 GMT Try this: a narrower area and cut off in the D max area coupled with good highlight seperation and normal contrast in the mid tone areas. That's what I see in Amidol prints.
> I have used Amidol in the past, about 30 years ago. The prints seemed > somehow richer, but I can't say why.
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Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:26 GMT > Try this: a narrower area and cut off in the D max area > coupled with good highlight seperation and normal contrast > in the mid tone areas. That's what I see in Amidol prints. I have no idea of what this means. My experience with Amidol is that it produces good, rather neutral color, prints which don't look much different from those processed in Dektol. Amidol is not a magic developer. It is very active, in fact, the most active of the generally used developing agents other than Phenidone. What I suggest is that a comparison of Amidol with Dektol at 1:1 rather than 1:2 may show less difference. A note about terms: I have no idea what is meant by "narrower area and cut off in the Dmax area. To me highlight separation means maintanence of contrast in the highlights. The characteristic of the paper is the main factor in this. On paper the highlights are on the toe of the curve. In all cases the toe has lower contrast than the mid tone area of any emulsion. On paper this results in some compression of tones. The shadow areas of a print may not get into the shoulder of the curve. Modern emulsions can reach quite high maximum densities, well beyond the values usable for a reflection print. Shadow detail also depends on the contrast of the shadow part of the print curve but is more often a result of the toe of the film curve. In any case, there tends to be a reduction of contrast at both ends of the range. Since reflection prints can reproduce a brightness range of only about 30:1 at best some compression must take place somewhere. The eye expects to see contrast of about the same value as in the original or the tone rendition will not look natural. If the mid tones are reproduced reasonably accurately the eye is generally tollerant of compression of shadows and highlights. I've done actual comparisons of prints developed in different developers and find very little difference other than small variations in image color among them. Others may have a different experience. The problem with internet discussion is that there is no way of seeing someone else's results. So much is lost or subject to variation in a scanned image that they are not too useful for comparing subtleties. I was introduced to Amidol about fifty years ago. In fact, its a very good and simple print developer. Its shortcomings are now mainly its cost, and its short tray life although that can be extended somewhat by adding Citric acid. In any case, its long enough for practical purposes. The other drawback is the tendency of Amidol to stain anything it dries and oxidizes on dark black. This stain is very hard to remove so its a good idea to use gloves or tongs and not get your hands into the stuff.
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LR Kalajainen - 24 Sep 2004 16:54 GMT Richard Koppow is correct. Phenidone-based developers will give a slightly colder tone because they use Benzotriazole as an anti-foggant rather than bromide. You can also use Benzotriazole in a Metol/HQ developer like D-72 or Ansco 120 (similar to Dektol) and get a colder tone than you will if you use the bromide. The coldness or warmth of the tone, however, is not the same question about the depth of the blacks (D-Max). They're related, but not the same. Generally, warmtone papers (chlorobromide as opposed to bromide) will give deeper, richer blacks, though not cold-toned blacks. Using a warmtone paper like Ilford MG Warmtone with a colder-toned developer gives interesting results. The blacks are rich, but cooler in tone.
> Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base > developer when printing on Ilford MG. I use Polymax developer with list > phenol-sulfate. Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based? And does it really > give me the riches blacks? What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks? > > Alan Tippett me home - 25 Sep 2004 12:12 GMT D max is determined by silver content in the emulsion, a developer should use it in full. there are small differences in hue, depending on the developer composition. If you don't get rich blacks, expose or develop more.
>Recently I was told that i would get richer blacks if I used a Phenidon-Base >developer when printing on Ilford MG. I use Polymax developer with list >phenol-sulfate. Is Polymax T paper develop Phenidon-Based? And does it really >give me the riches blacks? What about Dextol with respect to cold rich blacks? > >Alan Tippett Richard Knoppow - 30 Sep 2004 19:32 GMT >D max is determined by silver content in the emulsion, a >developer [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >>Alan Tippett Actually silver content has little to do with Dmax. In his book _Controlls in Black & White Photography_ (now out of print) Dr. Richard Henry proves this by measuring the silver content of several papers and their maximum density. The paper with the highest Dmax had a moderate silver content and one of the lowest Dmax papers had the highest silver content. It is the shape of the silver crystals and their distribution in the emulsion that determines the Dmax along with paper surfaces. Dmax is meaningful only for glossy prints. The light scattering from any textured or matted paper is sufficient to lower the Dmax well below the capability of the emulsion. Almost any paper is capable of densities well above (darker) than those practical for a reflection print. This is easy to demonstrate by illuminating a good print from the back. You will find shadows which appear to be black by reflection have detail in them. In addition to this the eye is sensitive to contrast. A contrasty print will appear to have deeper blacks than one of low contrast for the same actual values of reflectance. The fact is that silver content of neither negative or print emulsions is significant.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 30 Sep 2004 20:33 GMT > This is easy to demonstrate by > illuminating a good print from the back. You will find > shadows which appear to be black by reflection have detail > in them. I have quite a few prints that look a lot better transilluminated.
I find it very hard (meaning I have never been able) to get the same effect in a reflective print.
I thought at one time that PhotoShop would be the way to go, but no soap.
This near-invisible detail in the shadows is something ink jet prints do not accomplish. A silver print seems to have a lot of subliminal image in it that an ink-jet chucks away. It is like comparing an old Sheffield direct-to-disc LP record to a CD.
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