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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004advice on printing
Hi, Newbie poster, I hope this is an ok group to post this on. I've recently bought a Nikon F80 (N80 in US). I have enjoyed (in the past) developing my own negs (b & w) with some success, however I've never been able to get the dust free darkroom together where I can consistently print successfully. Plus, I really don't have the space in our current house. So I have bought a Nikon Coolscan, meaning I can scan negs at 4000dpi. I'd be interested in views on whether to buy a budget 'small' photo printer for album shots and stuff and then use a lab for b & w prints and better quality colour enlargements, or would something like an Epson 2100 give me good quality prints in b & w as well as colour. It's a difficult choice, I enjoy the processing but the limits of my environment mean that I know I won't get consistent results and therefore I wont produce as many prints as I would like. How much 'darkroom like' flexibility can I replicate from scans? I want to develop (pun intended) my skills, but will not having darkroom printing limit me severely, or can I make progress 'for now' using digital technology for the printing side of things. Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? Many thanks for any advice and opinions, Phil Hobgen ------------------------------------------- phil-trash@barbari.co.uk for email please delete the dash and take out the trash > Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my > budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? If you want to use C41 or E6 film then sure. Depends on what your goals are. Nick > > Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my > > budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? > > If you want to use C41 or E6 film then sure. Depends on what your goals are. > > Nick Thanks for the reply. I seem to remember hearing that colour was a lot more difficult for home processing, so I've never really looked into it properly. Is it just the temperature control, or are there other hassles, that might be better avoided until I'm back in the swing with b & w? Cheers Phil > I seem to remember hearing that colour was a lot more difficult for home > processing, so I've never really looked into it properly. Is it just the > temperature control, or are there other hassles, that might be better > avoided until I'm back in the swing with b & w? Best to learn on B&W but C-41 isn't that hard. The issues you'll face 1) Temperture control. Not that hard really but you need to pay attention. With C-41 the developer is the only step that's really tight on temperture. The follow on steps aren't that tightly controlled. 2) Timing control. C-41 normal times are 3 1/4 minutes. But with B&W you can easily have longer times. Longer times are easier plus if you make a mistake the mistake will matter less. If you've got a 10 minute B&W developer time then going long by 15 seconds isn't much at all. OTOH a full 1 stop push is only 30 extra seconds with C-41. 3) Chemicals have a limited life. If you process enough film this doesn't matter. If you process a limited amount of film then you may find it more expensive then getting it done commercially. But C-41 is easier then many make it out to be. Nick > Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my > budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? For 35mm, there is no point IMHO. I get my C41 processed locally for $2 a roll. I doubt you can do much better unless you place no value on your time. Also there is little creative control in the processing of C41 or E6. >> Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my >> budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > time. Also there is little creative control in the processing of C41 or > E6. I do five rolls at a time. Cost for the five is I think quite a bit less then $2. I cross process what I want. If I felt like it I could push/pull what I want. I do whatever formats I want. It would also take me about the same amount of time to just drive to the lab drop the film off and then drive back and pick it up. Do you place a value on the time spent going to the lab? Nick >>> Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my >>> budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > back and pick it up. Do you place a value on the time spent going to the > lab? I guess if your volume is high enough, then sure, it is a good idea. Plus getting 120 and 4x5 processed by a pro lab is sort of pricey. But for my 35mm C-41 developing, the Walgreens about 3 blocks away from me does fine. They haven't screwed up yet-- no scratched negatives and developing seems quite consistent. The people there take apparent care and are careful to promptly change chemicals and maintain their equipment. > I guess if your volume is high enough, then sure, it is a good idea. > Plus getting 120 and 4x5 processed by a pro lab is sort of pricey. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > developing seems quite consistent. The people there take apparent care > and are careful to promptly change chemicals and maintain their equipment. Yep C41 35mm at minilabs is down to a pretty good science. Mainly I guess because they have to Color correct their own mistakes.  SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > Yep C41 35mm at minilabs is down to a pretty good science. Mainly I > guess because they have to Color correct their own mistakes. Doing my own printing convinced me to take more care in everything -) Nick > > I guess if your volume is high enough, then sure, it is a good idea. > > Plus getting 120 and 4x5 processed by a pro lab is sort of pricey. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yep C41 35mm at minilabs is down to a pretty good science. Mainly I > guess because they have to Color correct their own mistakes. Mainly because they run process control strips on a daily basis. How do you colour correct negs? -- Dooey. Well I guess the good ones run Control strips, surely not every minilab in the US does. Just running a Control strip does not insure they are running within process guidelines. C41 BTW is pretty forgiving, the film chemistry can be fairly far off the ideal plot and still yield a printable result. The farther the lab is off, the more they will have to color correct when they print the negatives. The film itself can not be color corrected just the prints. I color correct my prints, when I print using the subtractive method of Magenta & Yellow....how do you color correct? > > Yep C41 35mm at minilabs is down to a pretty good science. Mainly I > > guess because they have to Color correct their own mistakes. > > Mainly because they run process control strips on a daily basis. > > How do you colour correct negs? SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 >Well I guess the good ones run Control strips, surely not >every minilab in the US does. They should be. I did and sometimes we ran them 2~3 times a day. Breakfast, lunch and dinner. We ran test negs and prints. We had a Fujimoto and we were constantly adjusting the voltage on the lamp for color purity. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com Please remove the "_" when replying via email > Well I guess the good ones run Control strips, surely not > every minilab in the US does. Just running a Control strip [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I color correct my prints, when I print using the subtractive > method of Magenta & Yellow....how do you color correct? Only a seriously bad lab would colour correct for poor processing the colour shift between upper and lower control plot limits make only a subjective amount of colour shift. These days I colour correct in Photoshop and match to Frontier or Dlab Print processor profiles. Dooey. That was my original point, you asked for clarification so I gave it. (I think) > Only a seriously bad lab would colour correct for poor processing the colour > shift between upper and lower control plot limits make only a subjective > amount of colour shift. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > the Walgreens about 3 blocks away from me > does fine. They haven't screwed up yet-- > no scratched negatives and developing > seems quite consistent. Get down on your knees and give thanks to heaven for your good fortune. The 'Scratch-O-Matic' salesman has visited all the drugstores and supermarkets in my neighborhood. And I had no idea one could work such inconsistency from an automatic processor: it rivals the work of a 6-year old processing his first roll of film in kitchen bowls while sitting on the closet floor. Luckily, there is a _very_ good photo store that does excellent processing down the road a few miles ('Foto Center' for any on Cleveland's east side). SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ > >> Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my > >> budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nick Hay Nick. What do you mean by: "I cross process what I want." Thanks John > Hay Nick. What do you mean by: > > "I cross process what I want." I take E-6 slide film and process it for C-41 negatives. Some of the local pro labs will do it but they have various rules. One charges a $7.50 surcharge and will only run the film during the last run of the day. I use my developer one shot so I don't need to worry about the E-6 film fouling my developer. I also use an old style stablizer so I'm okay with that. http://www.theasc.com/magazine/nov98/soupdujour/pg4.htm That link explains cross processing for movie making but the issues are the same I think. Nick > > Hay Nick. What do you mean by: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nick Thank You, Nick That link was very informative, John If your processing any C41 or E6 you may as well do it all yourself to make the chemicals pay for themselves. If you only shoot one format and a small amount its a waste. Since I desire to start duping my work by this Fall it should be cost effective for the many 1,000's of dupes I intend to make ;-) > > Also, I've avoided C41/E6 in the past, with basic temp control within my > > budget should I be trying these out as well as b & w? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > time. Also there is little creative control in the processing of C41 or > E6. SignatureLF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 > Hi, > > Newbie poster, I hope this is an ok group to post this on. <snip> Many thanks for all the advice on colour dev. I think I'll give it a go once I'm back in the swing. Any thoughts about the inkjet printer issue? Maybe this isn't the best group. Any way, thanks again. Cheers Phil Hobgen ------------------------------------------- phil-trash@barbari.co.uk for email please delete the dash and take out the trash ... >Any thoughts about the inkjet printer issue? Maybe this isn't the best >group. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Phil Hobgen aug1804 from Lloyd Erlick, This is definitely the right group! However, the inkjet is part of a different activity. Some other newsgroup will discuss it. But I'm opinionated enough to say forget the printer and work out a way to have your darkroom, for bw at least, in the space you have available. I have an article on my website about single-tray print processing, which is a way to make prints in a relatively small space. Tiny, efficient darkrooms are nothing new. This is definitley the right group. Prices on used darkroom gear, including enlargers, are dropping as people sell off darkrooms. regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ > This is definitely the right group! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > darkrooms are nothing new. This is definitley the right > group. The inkjet printers we can afford do 8-bit only, and then don't do even do that well. Some people have good luck with piezo-type printing, carbon inks but frankly, it's a technology that does a rather bad job simulating wet B&W printing - unless, of course, one is easily satisfied. > > This is definitely the right group! > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > but frankly, it's a technology that does a rather bad job simulating wet B&W > printing - unless, of course, one is easily satisfied. Awhh, don't give me a hard time chaps (that's my wifes job!) Unfortunately I have to make compromises, time, space, money. I work with PCs (as a software developer), and that familiarity and availability of good hardware has its advantages that I can and should make the most of. I'm returning to photography after a bit of time. I need to experiment and practice and I need to produce some output, even if only for me and my loved ones. Sticking with a film camera and my own developing was important to me, I didn't feel a digital camera would give me the satisfaction I can get from capturing a shot on film. But a reasonable inkjet printer (Epson 2100, 2200 in US) gives me the ability to see the results on paper without having to work around availability of a bathroom where I probably won't be able to get the dust free conditions one needs for good clean printing. And after all, I do get to choose whether I use software to replace the steps one takes when wet printing (which I will), or whether to create new pictures that weren't 'there' and fix mistakes that should not happen if one takes time and care with composition and lighting in the the original shot (which is not what I want a piece of software to do for me). That said, there's an enlarger under the stairs and I can see myself trying out Lloyds' single tray method at some time in the future.... And there are some real possibilities for experimentation just with developing film, and then scanning. JSS: Easily pleased? (none taken :-) ), I certainly think its better to be easy to please than hard to please; but that doesn't mean I have low standards. Lloyd: I'm sure you have been told many times before but I have to say, you make wonderful pictures. I enjoyed browsing your site, and will return to read the articles another time. Thanks. Cheers Phil Cinch. You don't even need a darkroom for black and white. The kitchen and a changing bag to load the film in the tank will do. Then the negatives can be scanned in and porinted out on an inkjet printer. I use an Epson 1200 - decided against a 2200 because the photos look dull. Problem - the prints are not only impermanent, but don;t look nearly as good as silver prints I make in the darkroom. Partial solution - I make them look sepia toned - much better than the awful blacks and greys from attempted black and white inkjet printing. Best solution - if it's a good negative, I make a real silver print in my darkroom, fully equipped and wonderful to work in depite being only about 5' by 7'. For color, I go back and forth between thinking it's better to send the film out, because the quality should be as high or higher than home C-41 processing (and home C-41 is time consuming, demanding as to temperature, and takes too long to be fun), and thinking I shopuld develop my own, as I used to, because I get dirty scratched negatives back. And they sometimes aren;t careful about fresh chemicals at the processors'. I went over entirely to commercial processing because of the nuisance of proofing the negatives in the darkroom, but that problem is gone now, because scanner and inkjet proofing is a cinch. Scanner and inkjet printing of color is much better than I can do in the darkroom - much more power in Photoshop. Have fun. I've been doing this on and off, with great satisfaction, since 1958. > > > This is definitely the right group! > > > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Cheers > Phil Cinch. You don't even need a darkroom for black and white. The kitchen and a changing bag to load the film in the tank will do. Then the negatives can be scanned in and porinted out on an inkjet printer. I use an Epson 1200 - decided against a 2200 because the photos look dull. Problem - the prints are not only impermanent, but don;t look nearly as good as silver prints I make in the darkroom. Partial solution - I make them look sepia toned - much better than the awful blacks and greys from attempted black and white inkjet printing. Best solution - if it's a good negative, I make a real silver print in my darkroom, fully equipped and wonderful to work in depite being only about 5' by 7'. For color, I go back and forth between thinking it's better to send the film out, because the quality should be as high or higher than home C-41 processing (and home C-41 is time consuming, demanding as to temperature, and takes too long to be fun), and thinking I shopuld develop my own, as I used to, because I get dirty scratched negatives back. And they sometimes aren;t careful about fresh chemicals at the processors'. I went over entirely to commercial processing because of the nuisance of proofing the negatives in the darkroom, but that problem is gone now, because scanner and inkjet proofing is a cinch. Scanner and inkjet printing of color is much better than I can do in the darkroom - much more power in Photoshop. Have fun. I've been doing this on and off, with great satisfaction, since 1958. > > > This is definitely the right group! > > > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Cheers > Phil ... >Lloyd: I'm sure you have been told many times before but I have to say, you >make wonderful pictures. I enjoyed browsing your site, and will return to >read the articles another time. Thanks. > >Cheers >Phil aug2104 from Lloyd Erlick, Thank you very much! regards, --le Signature________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto. voice: 416-686-0326 email: portrait@heylloyd.com net: www.heylloyd.com ________________________________ >>Any thoughts about the inkjet printer issue? Maybe this isn't the best >>group. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Prices on used darkroom gear, including enlargers, are >dropping as people sell off darkrooms. And while the single-tray method used by some is adequate for making a few fine prints a shift, I would recommend a Nova slot "processor". They take up about the same amount of space as a single tray and you can keep them setup quite easily. http://www.novadarkroom.com/mjb_pop/trial_printproc.htm There are many improvements to be made but the basic tank is a pretty good design. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com Please remove the "_" when replying via email |
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