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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004

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Head absorbing glass for 23c II has NO EFFECT :-(

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Phil Glaser - 15 Aug 2004 23:48 GMT
Hi,

I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing
glass for my Beseler 23C II and am VERY disappointed to find that it
does absolutely nothing to resolve my negative popping issue. My
testing procedure is to leave the enlarger on for about 30 seconds and
then focus with a grain focuser. I then shut off the enlarger, wait
about 10 seconds, and observe whether the the negative is still in
focus. I have tried taping both edges of the negative to the negative
carrier (pulling tightly to create lots of tension) and now the heat
absorbing glass, and the result is the same every time: the negative
is no longer in focus, but pops back into focus after about 10-15
seconds. (And I am _still_ taping _with_ the heat absorbing glass.)

WHY WHY WHY??? Where did Beseler go wrong with this model? I paid $75
for this enlarger. Am I now going to have to shell out $130 for an AN
glass carrier to solve this problem (I cannot find one used anywhere).
If I had known this was going to happen I would have bought a
different enlarger.

Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem?

Thanks for hearing my rant.

--Phil
Ralf R. Radermacher - 15 Aug 2004 23:54 GMT
> Hi,
>
> I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing
> glass ...

Pheeewww...  So your head is still where it belongs. :-)

SCNR,
Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

Michael Scarpitti - 16 Aug 2004 03:53 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> --Phil

What format are you using? What carrier?
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 13:37 GMT


> What format are you using? What carrier?

35mm. I'm using the vanilla 35mm carrier that came with the enlarger.
jjs - 16 Aug 2004 13:56 GMT
> 35mm. I'm using the vanilla 35mm carrier that came with the enlarger.

I have done very large enlargements with the XL version of your enlarger.
Negative movement was an issue, and to cope I would 'preheat' the negative,
then turn off the enlarger and _immediately_ hit the timer botton (foot
switch). That usually worked, but in the end I gave up and got a Focomat.
Cheap.  You might want to look into getting a glass carrier.
PATRICK GAINER - 16 Aug 2004 07:00 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> --Phil

Phil, your surname is close to describing what you should do to solve the
problem. Get some picture framing glass and make your own glass
carrier.The fancy metal frame of the 23C is nice but not necessary. Take
two sheets of glass large enough to stick out of the slot for the carrier
and mask them with black tape or construction paper for the size of your
negatives. Put the sandwich in the slot, center it, and close the slot.
This will work, but with added risk of dust particles.
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 14:07 GMT
> Phil, your surname is close to describing what you should do to solve the
> problem.

Har! As always, the answer to suffering is to look within.

> Get some picture framing glass and make your own glass
> carrier.The fancy metal frame of the 23C is nice but not necessary. Take
> two sheets of glass large enough to stick out of the slot for the carrier
> and mask them with black tape or construction paper for the size of your
> negatives. Put the sandwich in the slot, center it, and close the slot.

I'm a little concerned about getting cut from the edges of the glass.
If I fold skotch tape around the edges of the glass, that would create
a slight gap between the sheets of glass that might not be a bad
thing: would it not solve the newton ring problem ?

On the other hand, I'm imagining some kind of plastic 3/4 square
plastic strip that I could pop around the edges of both sheets to hold
them together. Somewhere, for some purpose, there must be such a
thing.

And if I did end up w/Newton rings, I could just by a sheet of an
glass (http://www.fpointinc.com/web_store/Products/focal/fpnewt2.htm).

> This will work, but with added risk of dust particles.

The dust problem is a fair trade for the negative popping issue.

Thanks. I think you just saved me $100 bucks!
f/256 - 16 Aug 2004 22:34 GMT
> I'm a little concerned about getting cut from the edges of the glass.

Take sandpaper and sand round the edges and corners of the glass.
Mike King - 17 Aug 2004 15:25 GMT
To expand on the above get the stuff the body shop uses to sand body
repairs.  Called wet or dry (3M makes one) its black in color and tough
enough to sand glass.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> > PATRICK GAINER <pgainer@rtol.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Take sandpaper and sand round the edges and corners of the glass.
Richard Knoppow - 16 Aug 2004 08:02 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> --Phil

  This seems to be a very common problem when using glassless
negative holders. I have the same problem with my Omega D2V. I have
not tried heat absorbing glass but I am not sure it would cure the
popping. I have glass type holders for all formats that I use but the
are a PITA because of having four surfaces to keep clean in addition
to the film. I find popping varies with the weather, probably with the
humidity but very often have to resort ot warming up the negatives
until the pop and become stable and then either turning off the lamp
briefly until I get the paper in, or using a card as a rudementary
shutter to control the exposure. What I do is to warm up the negative,
compose and critically focus. Then I turn off the lamp, put in the
paper and block the lens with a card. Then turn on the lamp for long
enough to pop the negative, then I can either make the exosure with
the card or turn off the lamp for a second, move the card out of the
way, and start the exposure with the timer. The negatives don't seem
to un-pop for a couple of seconds, long enough to do this. Glass
holders really are the best for sharpness but have the dust problem
plus the possibility of creating Newton's rings. Newton's rings are
interference pattern caused by reflections between the glass and the
negative surfaces. There are various ways of dealing with them,
probably an anti-reflection coating on the glass would work best but I
don't know if such exist. I don't think the enlarger is badly
designed, all of them with simple lamphouses have similar problems.

Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Michael Scarpitti - 16 Aug 2004 20:16 GMT
> > Hi,

Yes, enlargers with a right-angle lamphouse that employ a mirror to
reflect the light but not so much of the heat are superior.

> > I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing
> > glass for my Beseler 23C II and am VERY disappointed to find that it
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Tim Brown - 18 Aug 2004 16:09 GMT
> Glass
> holders really are the best for sharpness but have the dust problem
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> probably an anti-reflection coating on the glass would work best but I
> don't know if such exist.

Another posibility is a single sheet of anti-newton glass between the
negative and the light source. My Nikor neg carrier (similar to
Saunders) allows this. Since the neg normally bows upward it presses
against the glass. The top side of the glass is far enough out of the
plane of focus to greatly reduce the dust problem with a diffuse light
source.

Tim
Jim Phelps - 16 Aug 2004 09:40 GMT
Phil,

  You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II.  I have the older
Dual Dichro (with the external power supply) and it uses a 200W
Quartz-Halogen bulb.  I do not have negative popping problems and I do use a
piece of crystal glass (so as not to get the green from normal plate glass)
for heat absorption.

  Could you have a problem with heat dissipation?  I mean, if you're using
a Dichro color head and the vents are blocked, this could be a source of
your troubles.  If you're using the standard head (light bulb), did you up
the wattage from the recommended 75 watts?

  FWIW, I moved the fan out of my head for a reduction in vibration.  I
used a bathroom fan, the kind that sit in a 4" standard round duct and
connected the wall mounted fan to the head with a dryer hose.  Works well.

  Anyway, check the air flow in the head to make sure it's not being
obstructed.  The heat from the bulb has a long way to travel and an awful
lot of glass to heat before the heat gets to the negative stage.  30 seconds
seems real quick to me.

Jim P
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 16:10 GMT
>    You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II.  

I have the standard head.

>    Could you have a problem with heat dissipation?  I mean, if you're using
> a Dichro color head and the vents are blocked, this could be a source of
> your troubles.  If you're using the standard head (light bulb), did you up
> the wattage from the recommended 75 watts?

This is an intriguing suggestion. The letering are no longer visible
on the bulb, but it looks just like the 75w bulb as for example in
this illustration: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1
37121&is=REG
.

Is it possible to get a stronger bulb that would have the same shape?

>    FWIW, I moved the fan out of my head for a reduction in vibration.  I
> used a bathroom fan, the kind that sit in a 4" standard round duct and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> lot of glass to heat before the heat gets to the negative stage.  30 seconds
> seems real quick to me.

You may be on to something here. I am using the enlarger in a very,
very small closet. There's just barely enough room for me and the
enlarger, and I'm not a huge guy. (My wet space is in a bathroom and I
use a print drum.) So perhaps, indeed, the volume of air in that
closet is not sufficient to enable the head to dissipate the heat,
even from the normal 75W bulb. Does that sound plausible?

I never spend more than 10 minutes at a time in that closet to avoid
asphyxiating myself, but I'm starting to think that I ought to have
some kind of ventillation.

--Phil
Jim Phelps - 17 Aug 2004 09:53 GMT
> This is an intriguing suggestion. The letering are no longer visible
> on the bulb, but it looks just like the 75w bulb as for example in
> this illustration: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1
37121&is=REG
.
>
> Is it possible to get a stronger bulb that would have the same shape?

Yes.  It may be worth chucking the current bulb for one of known wattage.

> You may be on to something here. I am using the enlarger in a very,
> very small closet. There's just barely enough room for me and the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> asphyxiating myself, but I'm starting to think that I ought to have
> some kind of ventillation.

By all means, get some type of ventilation into that closet.  Don't forget,
you need a fresh air inlet as well as some form of outlet.  That outlet can
be a simple as a stack to the attic.  Remember heat rises, so if you have
the ability to place a duct or vent in the ceiling of the closet into an
attic (which should be almost dark, but if not you can baffle the duct to
make it light tight) this would do.  Place the fresh air intake low to the
floor.  This way, it's not unsightly when you need it as a closet again and
there isn't any wiring to fool around with.

> --Phil

Hope I've been helpful.

Jim
Mike King - 17 Aug 2004 15:30 GMT
The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued
"213"  (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some
photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> >    You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> --Phil
Phil Glaser - 17 Aug 2004 20:18 GMT
> The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued
> "213"  (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some
> photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp.

Yikes! That does it then. Step one, get 75 watt bulb; Next
contingency, home-brew glass negative carrier with vanilla glass; Next
Contingency, anti-newton glass.

Thanks. This all has been really helpful.

--Phil
JJS - 17 Aug 2004 20:59 GMT
> > The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued
> > "213"  (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some
> > photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp.
>
> Yikes! That does it then. Step one, get 75 watt bulb;

An alternative is to spend $90 and get a Leitz Valloy, then spend another
$600 for the rare cooling bonnet that permits 250 watt bulbs. ;)
Scott Schuckert - 16 Aug 2004 16:24 GMT
> Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem?

I've never known "heat absorbing" glass to have much of an effect; but
then, I've never had much trouble with negative popping in the 23c. I'm
going to assume you're using the condenser head - are you using the
recommended bulb?

Assuming everything is configured right, and you still need to solve
the problem at minimal cost, you can certainly work with two sheets of
glass. I've done it; you'll get lower contrast due to scatter unless
you mask carefully with black tape, around the negative and edges of
the glass.

Newtons rings were explained in another post; gapping the glass as you
mention would reduce the area but not eliminate them. Commercial glass
carriers usually use "newlo" or anti-Newtons rings glass. This does NOT
have an "anti reflection" coating; it has a very, very slight texture
to the underside of the upper sheet of glass. It prevents a molecular
contact between the glass and negative.

Newlo glass used to be commonly available in sheets. I have no idea if
it still is now.
PATRICK GAINER - 16 Aug 2004 18:02 GMT
> > Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem?
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Newlo glass used to be commonly available in sheets. I have no idea if
> it still is now.

It is also possible to make a carrier with glass on the top only, masonite
or mat board on the bottom, cut out of course to fit the negative. The
buckling is convex upward and thus is at least minimized by the glass on
top. This means only two surfaces to clean.

When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck
of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the
neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit.
jjs - 16 Aug 2004 18:17 GMT
> [...]
> When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck
> of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the
> neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit.

Patrick, have you ever used an oil-immersion carrier?
PATRICK GAINER - 17 Aug 2004 06:28 GMT
> > [...]
> > When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck
> > of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the
> > neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit.
>
> Patrick, have you ever used an oil-immersion carrier?

Nope.
Dan Dunphy - 19 Aug 2004 07:08 GMT
The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color
pringting.  It has nothing to do with popping.
Dan

>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>--Phil
f/256 - 19 Aug 2004 14:12 GMT
> The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color
> pringting.  It has nothing to do with popping.

If that is true, when builders use heat absorbing glass (HAG) for
home/buildings windows is just so we can see objects inside the
house/buildings the exact color they are?

When you don't have a HAG, the negative receives all the forms of radiation,
visible+IR and also plain heat that by convection/dissipation moves from the
bulb's hot filament to the condenser lenses and to the negative.  Adding a
HAG has probably 2 effects, firstly, it prevents a good portion of the IR to
reach the negative (less heat on the film) and secondly, adds another
"barrier" for the plain heat inside the condenser bulb chamber.  The IR
energy blocked by the HAG is not actually removed but converted into heat
(1st law of thermodynamics) which dissipates in the surroundings of the
filter (both sides unfortunately).  Now, there may be more
dissipation/transfer of heat on the side of the negative just because it is
the coolest side as supposed to the side where the actual source of energy
is (bulb).  Heat inside the chamber will eventually heat up all layers of
glass in between the bulb and the negative and by a combination of
convection/absorption/dissipation, a lot of the heat will get to the
negative.  We can say that the HAG reduces a little bit the heat (all sorts
of) on the negative, but mostly it just delays it, so the key is to have a
form of heat extraction (fan) in the condenser chamber, this way a lot of
the plain heat that the filament dissipates will be replaced by fresh air
from the environment, which in turn will cause the HAG to dissipate more of
the (IR blocked) heat on the condenser chamber.  The above is in part why My
Omega Chromega Dichroic enlarger puts less heat on the negative even with a
250watts lamp than my similar enlarger with condenser light source and just
75watts lamp.  The dichroic has a HAG right in front of the lamp and a fan
inside the lamp chamber.

Guillermo
Phil Glaser - 19 Aug 2004 16:52 GMT
> The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color
> pringting.  It has nothing to do with popping.

That's not what the Beseler engineer told me. I'm entirely ready to
believe he is wrong, of course.

--Phil
Nick Zentena - 19 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT
>> The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color
>> pringting.  It has nothing to do with popping.
>
> That's not what the Beseler engineer told me. I'm entirely ready to
> believe he is wrong, of course.

 My condensor head for my 4x5 Beseler comes with industrial strength heat
absorbing glass. While I guess you could use the head with filters for
colour it's really a B&W head. OTOH I'm not sure my colour head on the other
enlarger has any heat glass. A loud fan yes.

    Nick
 
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