Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004
Head absorbing glass for 23c II has NO EFFECT :-(
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Phil Glaser - 15 Aug 2004 23:48 GMT Hi,
I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing glass for my Beseler 23C II and am VERY disappointed to find that it does absolutely nothing to resolve my negative popping issue. My testing procedure is to leave the enlarger on for about 30 seconds and then focus with a grain focuser. I then shut off the enlarger, wait about 10 seconds, and observe whether the the negative is still in focus. I have tried taping both edges of the negative to the negative carrier (pulling tightly to create lots of tension) and now the heat absorbing glass, and the result is the same every time: the negative is no longer in focus, but pops back into focus after about 10-15 seconds. (And I am _still_ taping _with_ the heat absorbing glass.)
WHY WHY WHY??? Where did Beseler go wrong with this model? I paid $75 for this enlarger. Am I now going to have to shell out $130 for an AN glass carrier to solve this problem (I cannot find one used anywhere). If I had known this was going to happen I would have bought a different enlarger.
Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem?
Thanks for hearing my rant.
--Phil
Ralf R. Radermacher - 15 Aug 2004 23:54 GMT > Hi, > > I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing > glass ... Pheeewww... So your head is still where it belongs. :-)
SCNR, Ralf
 Signature Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses
Michael Scarpitti - 16 Aug 2004 03:53 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > --Phil What format are you using? What carrier?
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 13:37 GMT
> What format are you using? What carrier? 35mm. I'm using the vanilla 35mm carrier that came with the enlarger.
jjs - 16 Aug 2004 13:56 GMT > 35mm. I'm using the vanilla 35mm carrier that came with the enlarger. I have done very large enlargements with the XL version of your enlarger. Negative movement was an issue, and to cope I would 'preheat' the negative, then turn off the enlarger and _immediately_ hit the timer botton (foot switch). That usually worked, but in the end I gave up and got a Focomat. Cheap. You might want to look into getting a glass carrier.
PATRICK GAINER - 16 Aug 2004 07:00 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > --Phil Phil, your surname is close to describing what you should do to solve the problem. Get some picture framing glass and make your own glass carrier.The fancy metal frame of the 23C is nice but not necessary. Take two sheets of glass large enough to stick out of the slot for the carrier and mask them with black tape or construction paper for the size of your negatives. Put the sandwich in the slot, center it, and close the slot. This will work, but with added risk of dust particles.
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 14:07 GMT > Phil, your surname is close to describing what you should do to solve the > problem. Har! As always, the answer to suffering is to look within.
> Get some picture framing glass and make your own glass > carrier.The fancy metal frame of the 23C is nice but not necessary. Take > two sheets of glass large enough to stick out of the slot for the carrier > and mask them with black tape or construction paper for the size of your > negatives. Put the sandwich in the slot, center it, and close the slot. I'm a little concerned about getting cut from the edges of the glass. If I fold skotch tape around the edges of the glass, that would create a slight gap between the sheets of glass that might not be a bad thing: would it not solve the newton ring problem ?
On the other hand, I'm imagining some kind of plastic 3/4 square plastic strip that I could pop around the edges of both sheets to hold them together. Somewhere, for some purpose, there must be such a thing.
And if I did end up w/Newton rings, I could just by a sheet of an glass (http://www.fpointinc.com/web_store/Products/focal/fpnewt2.htm).
> This will work, but with added risk of dust particles. The dust problem is a fair trade for the negative popping issue.
Thanks. I think you just saved me $100 bucks!
f/256 - 16 Aug 2004 22:34 GMT > I'm a little concerned about getting cut from the edges of the glass. Take sandpaper and sand round the edges and corners of the glass.
Mike King - 17 Aug 2004 15:25 GMT To expand on the above get the stuff the body shop uses to sand body repairs. Called wet or dry (3M makes one) its black in color and tough enough to sand glass.
 Signature darkroommike
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> > > PATRICK GAINER <pgainer@rtol.net> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Take sandpaper and sand round the edges and corners of the glass. Richard Knoppow - 16 Aug 2004 08:02 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > --Phil This seems to be a very common problem when using glassless negative holders. I have the same problem with my Omega D2V. I have not tried heat absorbing glass but I am not sure it would cure the popping. I have glass type holders for all formats that I use but the are a PITA because of having four surfaces to keep clean in addition to the film. I find popping varies with the weather, probably with the humidity but very often have to resort ot warming up the negatives until the pop and become stable and then either turning off the lamp briefly until I get the paper in, or using a card as a rudementary shutter to control the exposure. What I do is to warm up the negative, compose and critically focus. Then I turn off the lamp, put in the paper and block the lens with a card. Then turn on the lamp for long enough to pop the negative, then I can either make the exosure with the card or turn off the lamp for a second, move the card out of the way, and start the exposure with the timer. The negatives don't seem to un-pop for a couple of seconds, long enough to do this. Glass holders really are the best for sharpness but have the dust problem plus the possibility of creating Newton's rings. Newton's rings are interference pattern caused by reflections between the glass and the negative surfaces. There are various ways of dealing with them, probably an anti-reflection coating on the glass would work best but I don't know if such exist. I don't think the enlarger is badly designed, all of them with simple lamphouses have similar problems.
Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Michael Scarpitti - 16 Aug 2004 20:16 GMT > > Hi, Yes, enlargers with a right-angle lamphouse that employ a mirror to reflect the light but not so much of the heat are superior.
> > I recently shelled out $20 on e-bay for a sheet of heat absorbing > > glass for my Beseler 23C II and am VERY disappointed to find that it [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Los Angeles, CA, USA > dickburk@ix.netcom.com Tim Brown - 18 Aug 2004 16:09 GMT > Glass > holders really are the best for sharpness but have the dust problem [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > probably an anti-reflection coating on the glass would work best but I > don't know if such exist. Another posibility is a single sheet of anti-newton glass between the negative and the light source. My Nikor neg carrier (similar to Saunders) allows this. Since the neg normally bows upward it presses against the glass. The top side of the glass is far enough out of the plane of focus to greatly reduce the dust problem with a diffuse light source.
Tim
Jim Phelps - 16 Aug 2004 09:40 GMT Phil,
You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II. I have the older Dual Dichro (with the external power supply) and it uses a 200W Quartz-Halogen bulb. I do not have negative popping problems and I do use a piece of crystal glass (so as not to get the green from normal plate glass) for heat absorption.
Could you have a problem with heat dissipation? I mean, if you're using a Dichro color head and the vents are blocked, this could be a source of your troubles. If you're using the standard head (light bulb), did you up the wattage from the recommended 75 watts?
FWIW, I moved the fan out of my head for a reduction in vibration. I used a bathroom fan, the kind that sit in a 4" standard round duct and connected the wall mounted fan to the head with a dryer hose. Works well.
Anyway, check the air flow in the head to make sure it's not being obstructed. The heat from the bulb has a long way to travel and an awful lot of glass to heat before the heat gets to the negative stage. 30 seconds seems real quick to me.
Jim P
Phil Glaser - 16 Aug 2004 16:10 GMT > You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II. I have the standard head.
> Could you have a problem with heat dissipation? I mean, if you're using > a Dichro color head and the vents are blocked, this could be a source of > your troubles. If you're using the standard head (light bulb), did you up > the wattage from the recommended 75 watts? This is an intriguing suggestion. The letering are no longer visible on the bulb, but it looks just like the 75w bulb as for example in this illustration: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1 37121&is=REG.
Is it possible to get a stronger bulb that would have the same shape?
> FWIW, I moved the fan out of my head for a reduction in vibration. I > used a bathroom fan, the kind that sit in a 4" standard round duct and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lot of glass to heat before the heat gets to the negative stage. 30 seconds > seems real quick to me. You may be on to something here. I am using the enlarger in a very, very small closet. There's just barely enough room for me and the enlarger, and I'm not a huge guy. (My wet space is in a bathroom and I use a print drum.) So perhaps, indeed, the volume of air in that closet is not sufficient to enable the head to dissipate the heat, even from the normal 75W bulb. Does that sound plausible?
I never spend more than 10 minutes at a time in that closet to avoid asphyxiating myself, but I'm starting to think that I ought to have some kind of ventillation.
--Phil
Jim Phelps - 17 Aug 2004 09:53 GMT > This is an intriguing suggestion. The letering are no longer visible > on the bulb, but it looks just like the 75w bulb as for example in > this illustration: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1 37121&is=REG. > > Is it possible to get a stronger bulb that would have the same shape? Yes. It may be worth chucking the current bulb for one of known wattage.
> You may be on to something here. I am using the enlarger in a very, > very small closet. There's just barely enough room for me and the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > asphyxiating myself, but I'm starting to think that I ought to have > some kind of ventillation. By all means, get some type of ventilation into that closet. Don't forget, you need a fresh air inlet as well as some form of outlet. That outlet can be a simple as a stack to the attic. Remember heat rises, so if you have the ability to place a duct or vent in the ceiling of the closet into an attic (which should be almost dark, but if not you can baffle the duct to make it light tight) this would do. Place the fresh air intake low to the floor. This way, it's not unsightly when you need it as a closet again and there isn't any wiring to fool around with.
> --Phil Hope I've been helpful.
Jim
Mike King - 17 Aug 2004 15:30 GMT The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued "213" (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp.
 Signature darkroommike
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> > > You didn't say which head you're using on the 23C-II. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > --Phil Phil Glaser - 17 Aug 2004 20:18 GMT > The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued > "213" (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some > photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp. Yikes! That does it then. Step one, get 75 watt bulb; Next contingency, home-brew glass negative carrier with vanilla glass; Next Contingency, anti-newton glass.
Thanks. This all has been really helpful.
--Phil
JJS - 17 Aug 2004 20:59 GMT > > The standard 75 watt bulb "211", the 150 watt "212", and the discontinued > > "213" (250 watt) all have the same size, shape and form factor (as do some > > photoflood lamps) so you could be using too much lamp. > > Yikes! That does it then. Step one, get 75 watt bulb; An alternative is to spend $90 and get a Leitz Valloy, then spend another $600 for the rare cooling bonnet that permits 250 watt bulbs. ;)
Scott Schuckert - 16 Aug 2004 16:24 GMT > Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem? I've never known "heat absorbing" glass to have much of an effect; but then, I've never had much trouble with negative popping in the 23c. I'm going to assume you're using the condenser head - are you using the recommended bulb?
Assuming everything is configured right, and you still need to solve the problem at minimal cost, you can certainly work with two sheets of glass. I've done it; you'll get lower contrast due to scatter unless you mask carefully with black tape, around the negative and edges of the glass.
Newtons rings were explained in another post; gapping the glass as you mention would reduce the area but not eliminate them. Commercial glass carriers usually use "newlo" or anti-Newtons rings glass. This does NOT have an "anti reflection" coating; it has a very, very slight texture to the underside of the upper sheet of glass. It prevents a molecular contact between the glass and negative.
Newlo glass used to be commonly available in sheets. I have no idea if it still is now.
PATRICK GAINER - 16 Aug 2004 18:02 GMT > > Is there really NOTHING else I can do to solve this problem? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Newlo glass used to be commonly available in sheets. I have no idea if > it still is now. It is also possible to make a carrier with glass on the top only, masonite or mat board on the bottom, cut out of course to fit the negative. The buckling is convex upward and thus is at least minimized by the glass on top. This means only two surfaces to clean.
When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit.
jjs - 16 Aug 2004 18:17 GMT > [...] > When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck > of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the > neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit. Patrick, have you ever used an oil-immersion carrier?
PATRICK GAINER - 17 Aug 2004 06:28 GMT > > [...] > > When I have had problems with Newton rings, it has been because of a speck > > of something causing uneven contact with the glass, or a wet spot on the > > neg. Waviness in the glass can also be a culprit. > > Patrick, have you ever used an oil-immersion carrier? Nope.
Dan Dunphy - 19 Aug 2004 07:08 GMT The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color pringting. It has nothing to do with popping. Dan
>Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >--Phil f/256 - 19 Aug 2004 14:12 GMT > The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color > pringting. It has nothing to do with popping. If that is true, when builders use heat absorbing glass (HAG) for home/buildings windows is just so we can see objects inside the house/buildings the exact color they are?
When you don't have a HAG, the negative receives all the forms of radiation, visible+IR and also plain heat that by convection/dissipation moves from the bulb's hot filament to the condenser lenses and to the negative. Adding a HAG has probably 2 effects, firstly, it prevents a good portion of the IR to reach the negative (less heat on the film) and secondly, adds another "barrier" for the plain heat inside the condenser bulb chamber. The IR energy blocked by the HAG is not actually removed but converted into heat (1st law of thermodynamics) which dissipates in the surroundings of the filter (both sides unfortunately). Now, there may be more dissipation/transfer of heat on the side of the negative just because it is the coolest side as supposed to the side where the actual source of energy is (bulb). Heat inside the chamber will eventually heat up all layers of glass in between the bulb and the negative and by a combination of convection/absorption/dissipation, a lot of the heat will get to the negative. We can say that the HAG reduces a little bit the heat (all sorts of) on the negative, but mostly it just delays it, so the key is to have a form of heat extraction (fan) in the condenser chamber, this way a lot of the plain heat that the filament dissipates will be replaced by fresh air from the environment, which in turn will cause the HAG to dissipate more of the (IR blocked) heat on the condenser chamber. The above is in part why My Omega Chromega Dichroic enlarger puts less heat on the negative even with a 250watts lamp than my similar enlarger with condenser light source and just 75watts lamp. The dichroic has a HAG right in front of the lamp and a fan inside the lamp chamber.
Guillermo
Phil Glaser - 19 Aug 2004 16:52 GMT > The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color > pringting. It has nothing to do with popping. That's not what the Beseler engineer told me. I'm entirely ready to believe he is wrong, of course.
--Phil
Nick Zentena - 19 Aug 2004 17:19 GMT >> The heat absorbing glass is there to remove the IR spectrum, for color >> pringting. It has nothing to do with popping. > > That's not what the Beseler engineer told me. I'm entirely ready to > believe he is wrong, of course. My condensor head for my 4x5 Beseler comes with industrial strength heat absorbing glass. While I guess you could use the head with filters for colour it's really a B&W head. OTOH I'm not sure my colour head on the other enlarger has any heat glass. A loud fan yes.
Nick
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