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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004

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Water Bath

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Tony S. Atty - 18 Aug 2004 20:02 GMT
Hi-

What are the benefits of water baths during printing, and what is the
proper procedure?
Thank you,
TSA
Nicholas O. Lindan - 18 Aug 2004 20:29 GMT
> What are the benefits of water baths during printing

Water baths as in temperature control for color printing
- or -
Water baths as in controlling B&W print contrast?

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Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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Tony S. Atty - 18 Aug 2004 21:01 GMT
>> What are the benefits of water baths during printing
>
>Water baths as in temperature control for color printing
> - or -
>Water baths as in controlling B&W print contrast?

Water baths as in controlling contrast and producing fine B&W prints.
I've read that some of the masters use this technique to produce
breathtaking prints.  I can't find anything on Google, so I'd thought
I'd try you folks.
Thanks,
Tony
JJS - 18 Aug 2004 22:10 GMT
> Water baths as in controlling contrast and producing fine B&W prints.
> I've read that some of the masters use this technique to produce
> breathtaking prints.  I can't find anything on Google, so I'd thought
> I'd try you folks.

There is an example, I think in one of Adams' books (The Negative?) where he
develops a negative for a short period of time, then puts into a water bath
without agitation for a period of time so that the shadows develop out while
the highlights develop far less.
Donald Qualls - 19 Aug 2004 04:10 GMT
>>Water baths as in controlling contrast and producing fine B&W prints.
>>I've read that some of the masters use this technique to produce
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> without agitation for a period of time so that the shadows develop out while
> the highlights develop far less.

Even Adams admitted, in his last couple years, that this technique no
longer works with "modern" films (whatever that means).  You can get
pretty much the same effect, however, by diluting the developer and
reducing agitation frequency in conventional development; I've seen a
difference that looked about like a one stop pull just by reducing
agitation from once a minute to once every five minutes in HC-110 G --
except that the shadow detail was about the same in both (because
shadows don't locally exhaust the diluted developer as highlights do).
I've never seen streaking (aka bromide drag) with HC-110, though some
have reported problems with reduced agitation causing this with other
developers, especially with faster films that contain more bromide to
begin with.

Do be sure to use enough active developer -- with HC-110, at least 3 ml
of syrup per 80 square inches of film (135-36 or 120 roll), at least 100
ml of stock solution for D-76 or XTOL -- even if that means you develop
a single roll in a double tank (use an empty reel for a spacer).

You can pick up 1/3 to a full stop of real shadow speed with this
technique, depending on the film and developer, by extending development
to recover the contrast level you'd have had with normal agitation at
your original time -- what you're doing, essentially, is developing the
shadows more (maybe a lot more), but not adding much to the highlights.
 No, it won't bring up details that weren't there to begin with, but it
does wonders for the rendition of stuff that would otherwise be too
faint to see readily in a print or scan, and you get the extra speed
without the contrast increase of a push.  Takes longer, of course...

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I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

jjs - 19 Aug 2004 04:28 GMT
> > There is an example, I think in one of Adams' books (The Negative?) where he
> > develops a negative for a short period of time, then puts into a water bath
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Even Adams admitted, in his last couple years, that this technique no
> longer works with "modern" films (whatever that means).

*sigh* Another nail in our coffin. Modern ain't what it used to be.

> You can get
> pretty much the same effect, however, by diluting the developer and
> reducing agitation frequency in conventional development;  [... snip good
article ...]

It is good to get at least an implied affirmation for what I call modified
stand-development which I've used with outstanding success for Agfa 100 in
MF - that's Rodinal 1:200 for _howeverlong_ - like load, fill, go to town,
have a good dinner, come home, empty, stop, fix, clear, be happy. :) How is
it modified? Well, don't go to dinner and hang around and you can hardly
help but agitate once every 15 minutes because you have to get away from the
Wife who's nagging you with "Why don't we ever go do dinner and are you
going into the basement darkroom again already?"

Okay, okay, so maybe not but it works for me with N-1 situations.
Seriously. Very nice outcomes.

Best,
John S.
Donald Qualls - 19 Aug 2004 04:52 GMT
> It is good to get at least an implied affirmation for what I call modified
> stand-development which I've used with outstanding success for Agfa 100 in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Okay, okay, so maybe not but it works for me with N-1 situations.
> Seriously. Very nice outcomes.

Yes indeed.  For normal subjects and small film, I try to keep agitation
to, at most, five minute intervals.  The edge effects that can arise
(and I've seen them in microfilm stand developed in HC-110 G -- they're
almost as big as the image features in a 10x14 mm frame) aren't
desirable, to me, for most subjects.  Agitation every five minutes seems
to keep them down without increasing contrast much, and development
times are still enough longer to help out the toe while local exhaustion
prevents overloading the shoulder.  IMO, five minutes (at least in
HC-110 G) is the optimum agitation interval for maximum compensation
without visible edge effects.

Conversely, increasing agitation can raise contrast without requiring
compensating underexposure (as extended development does); if (like me)
you normally agitate five inversions once a minute, you should be able
to get close to N+1 by agitating five inversions every thirty seconds
for about the same time -- the extra agitation ensure you always have
fresh developer in the highlights, and leads them to develop more,
without extending the process time and pushing up the toe.  There's
(probably) less effect available in this direction, because "normal"
agitation is already (IMO) fairly far down this path, but for people who
normally agitate little or gently to begin with, this is an option for
increasing contrast without much if any increase in grain (as would be
the case with extended development).

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Ron Todd - 19 Aug 2004 06:50 GMT
>>>Water baths as in controlling contrast and producing fine B&W prints.
>>>I've read that some of the masters use this technique to produce
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Even Adams admitted, in his last couple years, that this technique no
>longer works with "modern" films (whatever that means).  You can get

AIR, he was referring to the old thick emulsions like Super-X vs. the
modern thin emulsions like Tri-X and Plus-X.

>pretty much the same effect, however, by diluting the developer and
>reducing agitation frequency in conventional development; I've seen a
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>faint to see readily in a print or scan, and you get the extra speed
>without the contrast increase of a push.  Takes longer, of course...
John - 19 Aug 2004 04:55 GMT
>>> What are the benefits of water baths during printing
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Thanks,
>Tony

    Water bath development has been used to extend the tonal range
produced in an emulsion that is underexposed. Supposedly the
development process continues in the highlight area until all
developer is exhausted. This would have similar results to burning in
an area of high density during enlarging. This may have benefited
photographers in the past when materials and processes were limited or
difficult to predict but (IMO) this is not something one would usually
need to do if you have a properly exposed and developed film.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.darkroompro.com
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
JCPERE - 19 Aug 2004 14:31 GMT
>Tony S. Atty tonyatty@zip.net

>What are the benefits of water baths during printing, and what is the
>proper procedure?

I assume you are talking about water baths used in printing not film
developing.  The print is placed in regular developer for a time and then
placed in a water bath where it sits with no or very slight agitation.  The
process can be repeated as needed.  This should cause the developer in the
shadow area to exhaust before the highlight area.  The result is fully develop
highlights but partially developed shadows.  Shadows will look more open but
somewhat lower in contrast.  Don't forget that one man's open shadows is
another man's weak shadows.  Results are somewhat like pre-exposure of film.
Using water bath in film processing is opposite resulting in lower highlight
contrast and more shadow development.  Similar to flashing of paper in
printing.  Not sure were to find it but look around:
http://www.michaelandpaula.com/
They use water bath when printing with AZO which only comes in grades 2 and 3.
Should have some info on their methods.  
Chuck
Dan Quinn - 20 Aug 2004 00:24 GMT
RE: jcpere@aol.com (JCPERE) wrote  

> Similar to flashing of paper in printing.

 It's been a while since I've covered this ground.
 Otis Sprow writes of pre-flashing and waterbath with film. Howard
Bond writes of pre-flashing and waterbath with paper. Both articles
are in Photo Techniques' Mastering Black-and-White Photography
Volume I. Both Otis and Howard use multiple immersion
techniques.                                                     Dan
Dan Quinn - 31 Aug 2004 23:14 GMT
> What are the benefits of water baths during printing, and
> what is the proper procedure?

 Here's a twist which may be of interest. Search this NG
for, dignan 125 .
 Not water but activator makes for bath two. Very interesting
with dialogue complete with all the details.               Dan
 
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